Author Topic: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers  (Read 13977 times)

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Offline Glod

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I'm giving up on switch lubing and stickers. so little reward for so much time i waste on this in the past and time i was about to waste. I have many un-built keyboards: phantoms (3 of them!), a Nerd60, a GONPad, an ergodox i was going to sell, and those GH60s one day, I could be building those instead or playing video games or spending time with my wife.

Seriously why the hell am i even lubing these black switches anyway, they came from a used G80 11900, they are already smooth.

And stickers are pointless, more wasted time.

I'm sticking to switches that don't need lube. Some spring swapping but no lube and stickers. I have learned to like stock clears now. forget trying so hard to make a keyboard feel less mechanical. EMBRACE The mechanical people. embrace it.

/rant


Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 20:18:29 »
Stock clears FTW!

Offline Defect

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 20:26:59 »
Zip lock bag + excessive amounts of lube.

I still prefer lubing targeted points but I don't see why this won't work

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Offline jameslr

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 21:14:18 »
I'm giving up on switch lubing and stickers. so little reward for so much time i waste on this in the past and time i was about to waste. I have many un-built keyboards: phantoms (3 of them!), a Nerd60, a GONPad, an ergodox i was going to sell, and those GH60s one day, I could be building those instead or playing video games or spending time with my wife.

Seriously why the hell am i even lubing these black switches anyway, they came from a used G80 11900, they are already smooth.

And stickers are pointless, more wasted time.

I'm sticking to switches that don't need lube. Some spring swapping but no lube and stickers. I have learned to like stock clears now. forget trying so hard to make a keyboard feel less mechanical. EMBRACE The mechanical people. embrace it.

/rant

If you want help I'll take some of those nuisances off your hands.  :thumb:
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Offline Corey

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 21:18:13 »
On a brand new board, when would be a good time to lube the switches?

Offline nubbinator

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 21:18:39 »
I'm giving up on switch lubing and stickers. so little reward for so much time i waste on this in the past and time i was about to waste. I have many un-built keyboards: phantoms (3 of them!), a Nerd60, a GONPad, an ergodox i was going to sell, and those GH60s one day, I could be building those instead or playing video games or spending time with my wife.

Seriously why the hell am i even lubing these black switches anyway, they came from a used G80 11900, they are already smooth.

And stickers are pointless, more wasted time.

I'm sticking to switches that don't need lube. Some spring swapping but no lube and stickers. I have learned to like stock clears now. forget trying so hard to make a keyboard feel less mechanical. EMBRACE The mechanical people. embrace it.

/rant

If you want help I'll take some of those nuisances off your hands.  :thumb:

Dude, why are you calling his wife a nuisance?

Offline Novus

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 21:42:46 »
How do you know what his wife looks like?
For all we know she could be a ... oh wait ur talking about the keyboards aren't ya?

Offline bueller

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 22:13:04 »
Never! Lubed 62g clears are godly.
It's a good width!  If it's half-width it's too narrow, and full-width is too wide. 

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Offline phoenix1234

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 22:22:37 »
On a brand new board, when would be a good time to lube the switches?
Indeed, there is no particular point of time.
A good time to lube the switch is after break-in.
Usually, a year of frequent use is good for breaking in the Cherry MX switches.

I like linear switches

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 22:37:01 »
Zip lock bag + excessive amounts of lube.

I still prefer lubing targeted points but I don't see why this won't work

That'll work perfect for making a mess  :))

Maybe for lubing springs but not stems.

Offline Lingj

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 22:40:21 »
I think stickers are a waste of time, but lubing is definitely worth it for clears  ;D. Can't say much for blacks or other switches.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 22:43:58 »
I've been down with stock unstickered switches for forever. Viva la revolution

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 22:56:18 »
I've been down with stock unstickered switches for forever. Viva la revolution

Viva the topper revolution?

Offline Glod

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 23:15:55 »
damn this thread lol what have I done.


Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 23:17:47 »
Don't make me hit you with my buckling spring boards tj

Offline exitfire401

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 23:18:07 »
I think stickers are a waste of time, but lubing is definitely worth it for clears  ;D. Can't say much for blacks or other switches.

Agreed. Stickers are absolutely useless, but I love the aesthetic. Clears NEED to be lubed though =) Best feeling MX switches I've ever typed on are lubed clears. Vintage blacks being a close second.
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Offline jorgenslee

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 23:20:27 »
Never! Lubed 62g clears are godly.

I was about to give up on lubing my mx clear upon reading this thread until I read your post. Care to share on how you lube your ergo clear that makes you conclude it is the 'godly' switch. :D

Offline bueller

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 23:25:33 »
Never! Lubed 62g clears are godly.

I was about to give up on lubing my mx clear upon reading this thread until I read your post. Care to share on how you lube your ergo clear that makes you conclude it is the 'godly' switch. :D
I use the geekhackers thick lube, using a small brush I apply some lube to the inside of the switch anywhere that the slider contacts and then I apply more on the sides of the slider itself. I don't bother lubing springs, tried it a few times and felt it made no difference.

Difference is night and day testing next to a stock clear, much smoother feel and it evens out the rough feel of the slider at actuation.
It's a good width!  If it's half-width it's too narrow, and full-width is too wide. 

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Offline demik

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 23:31:55 »
i heard the koreans are now smearing dog poop on their switches.

word is, they'll make you type faster. automagically make you the Jordan of e-(not actual)sports, get you tween male LoL groupies and a gh mod.
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Offline digi

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 23:33:46 »
i heard the koreans are now smearing dog poop on their switches.

word is, they'll make you type faster. automagically make you the Jordan of e-(not actual)sports, get you tween male LoL groupies and a gh mod.

brb, smearing dog poop on my switches..

Offline demik

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 23:36:29 »
has to be a shih tzu

btw op, i also don't believe in lubed switches or stickered switches.

seems like a lot of crap for no reason.

topre switches are perfect as is.
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Offline digi

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 23:37:35 »
has to be a shih tzu

lmao, damn it! I have a lab, will that work?

Offline demik

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 23:38:30 »
has to be a shih tzu

lmao, damn it! I have a lab, will that work?

YOU LOVE THAT LAB. YOU LOVE THAT LAB WITH ALL YOUR DAMN HEART.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 20 August 2014, 00:23:28 »
Meh MX blacks aren't linear enough. Lubed hall effect any day.

When compared with high performing hall effect smoothness, why bother with an underperforming contact based switch like cherry or alps?

Offline Glod

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 20 August 2014, 00:53:13 »
bah, don't encourage me to start collecting old boards and finding the perfect non-cherry switch, for the exception of 2 model Ms i've been avoiding becoming a ebay hunter and filling up my closets.

i just want to enjoy my stock clears, is there anything wrong with that lol

Offline taylordcraig

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 20 August 2014, 01:25:24 »
wb demik

Offline Oobly

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 20 August 2014, 01:51:03 »
I can understand leaving off the stickers since it's a such a pain to line them up and it's a lot of work for little tangible reward, but lubing.... I couldn't bring myself to give that up. I just don't like scratchy switches.

Swap the springs and lube the stems! Lubing springs stops the pings! Sticker the switches and insert the trampolines! Don't stop 'til you've got 62g, stickered, lubed, trampolined, latexed ErgoClears! Then feel the feels, listen to the glorious sounds and REJOICE!
Buying more keycaps,
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Offline bianco

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 20 August 2014, 05:01:20 »
i planned on using stickers on my builds
but when the gb organized by moz took an unfortunate turn, no stickers.

just went ahead with switching new springs and lube (with gh thick formula)
i'd say worth it!

Offline Battou62

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 20 August 2014, 06:54:21 »
Never! Lubed 62g clears are godly.

Mine feel scratchy after using vintage blacks. I understand people wanting to use lube at certain points on the switch, but stickers have never made any sense to me. I bet we are making some Cherry engineer cringe.

Offline taylordcraig

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 20 August 2014, 09:11:55 »
I bet we are making some Cherry engineer cringe.

I laughed so hard when I read that because I've thought about it before.

Offline blno

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 20 August 2014, 11:49:15 »
Don't stop 'til you've got 62g, stickered, lubed, trampolined, latexed ErgoClears!

What's a "latexed" ErgoClear? I've found info about "trampolined", but not "latexed".

EDIT: ok, found it.

Do you have to redo the lubing and "latexing" from time to time, or does it stay good for many years?
« Last Edit: Wed, 20 August 2014, 12:35:43 by blno »

Offline absyrd

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 20 August 2014, 11:54:25 »
So glad I never even started.

I did think lubing might have some upside, but I knew stickers were... stickers.
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Offline Lurch

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 20 August 2014, 12:52:48 »
I just bought a secondhand poker that is stickered, except for one switch. It also has a notched plate installed to allow switch top removal without desoldering. The switch without the sticker has noticeable movement between the top and bottom housing, while the switches with stickers do not; the switches with the stickers do feel a little bit more stable.

I have not yet stickered or lubed a whole keyboard myself, but I can imagine how tedious of a process it is. :blank: :-[

I think stickering might be useful if you plan to open your switch tops frequently, as I would imagine the plastic on the switch tops will eventually warp, not allowing for a tight fit.

I'm going to check some fresh switches I have at home to see if there is any movement between the bottom and top housing.
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 20 August 2014, 16:53:15 »
I figure, if you are already lubing why not sticker as well? It is a lot of tedious repeditive work though. You can't do it as a job or quickly, instead think of it as a meditative practice. Just put on some soothing music, light some incense, dim the lights, and whip out the lube!  #phrasing   

Offline Glod

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 20 August 2014, 17:43:29 »
but that time...... i need it for other things, i have hand tremors sometimes, things take longer..... no **** like i think doing lubing and stickers takes me a good DAY (lunch to midnight) for ONE board.

But i think this goes beyond the amount of time actually, because done full boards before, maybe like 7 so far, i have a quite proper Ergo Clear QFR with stickers, 62g korean springs, and krytox mix i did myself, i am quite proud of myself for it.  This is among many switch mods i have done for myself and my friend.

I think i am finally embracing that mechanical feeling of Stock Clears. I am one with the Ping. It took me TWO YEARS of geek hack to realize this.

everyone is lubing and modding their clears so much so that they don't feel mechanical. With all the money being spent, why not just get a Topre. Topre does the whole smooth thing pretty damn well. If i were to pick the "perfect" Ergo Clear switches on my QFR against the 45g Topre on my HHKB, the HHKB wins. fight me.


Offline daerid

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 20 August 2014, 22:54:14 »
I stickered my first ErgoDox when I swapped out the stock springs for 65g. The moment I finished it up I literally said, "well... that was the biggest waste of time I've ever done".

Never again. Never even bothered with lubing switches, either.

Offline Oobly

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #36 on: Thu, 21 August 2014, 02:05:06 »
About stickers.. From my experience:

Do they make a difference? YES. It's not massive, but it's there.

Are they worth it? If you're already opening the switches to do some other mods, then yes. Otherwise no. Unless you're just in love with the aesthetic of them, then maybe.

About lubing and other mods:

Lubing has a more profound effect on modern MX switches. There is a difference between grindy, scratchy, cheap mechanical feeling and smooth, premium, high quality mechanical feeling. I prefer the latter.
A modded ErgoClear with lube, stickers, trampolines and latex does have some similarities to Topre in terms of smoothness, but there's something about it which is just so much more.... engineered / mechanical. Topre feels nice, but to me it doesn't feel mechanical / engineered, it feels like plastic and rubber. Lubed ErgoClears feel like a well-oiled machine, like it can take a beating and will still continue to function smoothly and effectively for a VERY long time.

Lubed MX Elite?
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 21 August 2014, 02:27:06 »
With all the money being spent, why not just get a Topre. Topre does the whole smooth thing pretty damn well. If i were to pick the "perfect" Ergo Clear switches on my QFR against the 45g Topre on my HHKB, the HHKB wins. fight me.


Offline margo baggins

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 21 August 2014, 08:54:47 »
I hate lubing, I hate stickering....

HOWEVER,

I spend lots of my life doing it. Weird aye.

Sell me a phantom pcb pls  :p
I got boards.



Offline jdcarpe

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 21 August 2014, 09:12:30 »
I think i am finally embracing that mechanical feeling of Stock Clears. I am one with the Ping. It took me TWO YEARS of geek hack to realize this.

Finally, we converted someone. :D
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Offline Jixr

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 21 August 2014, 12:04:29 »
meh, I do it the lazy way, a syringe and press the stem down and add 1 drop, easy peasy and feels just as good as my greased, oiled and stickered switches that I got off someone else.

Offline paicrai

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 22 August 2014, 04:14:09 »
hey man if you're giving up on lube give it to me :-*
THE FEMINIST ILLUMINATI

I will literally **** you raw paicrai, I hope you're legal by the time I meet you.
👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 good **** go౦ԁ ****👌 thats ✔ some good👌👌**** right👌👌th 👌 ere👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯  i say so 💯  thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good ****

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 22 August 2014, 07:13:03 »
hey man if you're giving up on lube give it to me :-*

You know its only lube for keyboard parts right?

Offline phoenix1234

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 22 August 2014, 07:42:02 »
hey man if you're giving up on lube give it to me :-*

You know its only lube for keyboard parts right?

 :))
I like linear switches

Offline paicrai

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 22 August 2014, 07:49:57 »

hey man if you're giving up on lube give it to me :-*

You know its only lube for keyboard parts right?
yeah totally i have a lot of stiff shafts that need lubing
THE FEMINIST ILLUMINATI

I will literally **** you raw paicrai, I hope you're legal by the time I meet you.
👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 good **** go౦ԁ ****👌 thats ✔ some good👌👌**** right👌👌th 👌 ere👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯  i say so 💯  thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good ****

Offline limitz

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 22 August 2014, 14:43:44 »
It's funny because people use Krytox for lube, which EliteKeyboards specifically recommends against:

"These lubes are intended for closed systems or for applications where oil is periodically reapplied to the initially applied lubricant, because the Krytox oil in the lubricant separates from the PTFE solids if the system isn't sealed or doesn't constantly mix the lubricant (which reflows the solids). Sure, it's great lube for high speed bearings and extreme temperature environments, but keyswitches are open systems at room temperature and the oil will soon separate and pool or drip out the bottom of the switch leaving you with gummier solids that no longer flow and just attract dust. We did tests a couple years ago with Krytox out of curiosity, and after the oil separates off a few days or a week later, the difference from an un-lubed switch is mostly negligible."

All that time, and basically a few weeks later, no difference in feeling. If you're going to lube, at least use a different type. Despite the premium placed on automotive lube, there's no difference at all w/ unlubed.

Just as medicine has placebos, I'm convinced that the keyboard community has more placebos than any other hobby I dabble in (bolt-action rifles, billiards, and hydroponics). People do something, and utterly convince themselves it *must* make a difference in feeling, when the science says otherwise.
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 August 2014, 14:48:13 by limitz »
Mmm... machined aluminum

Offline jacobolus

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 22 August 2014, 15:03:29 »
because the Krytox oil in the lubricant separates from the PTFE solids if the system isn't sealed or doesn't constantly mix the lubricant (which reflows the solids).
Do you have any evidence for this? The whole point of the thickener used in Krytox grease is that it stays mixed with the oil. (Though according to this document it will start to lose oil if you get it too hot http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a347666.pdf.)

I’m sure it’s possible for it to separate, but I doubt that the oil all spills out within a few weeks. I’d be curious to see more details about EliteKeyboards’s tests.

Apparently their claim, which you quoted, is from a reddit comment, and they provide no other information:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/1u3by5/all_about_keyboard_lubes/ceefaxh
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 August 2014, 15:36:51 by jacobolus »

Offline phoenix1234

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 23 August 2014, 23:52:57 »
Elitekeyboard has the point. Krytox grease does have oil separation property. That's why the storage condition of Krytox indicates

"Greases might show oil separation after extended storage but mixing the free oil back into the grease will return the grease to normal useable condition."

However, I think it take a long time until it will be separated completely and even so, I don't think it will "drip out the bottom of the switch leaving you with gummier solids that no longer flow and just attract dust" easily as Elitekeyboard said.

The specification of Krytox GPL 206 indicates:
Separation
   3.0 % =>30 hr; 99°C; FTMS 791B 321.1
    11 %   11 => 30 hr; 204°C; FTMS 791B 321.1

Consider the temperature is Y and percentage of separation is X, we can have approximately
(Y/60)^2=X
Y=99 => X=2.72% (close to 3%)
Y=204 => X=11.56% (close to 11%)

So if the room temperature is about 25°C, the percentage is about 0.17%.
Based on my calculation, I think 0.17% oil separation under room temperature is good enough.
So we don't need to worry about oil separation factor for lubing the keyboard.
That doesn't count the viscosity and the typing practice will also reduce the oil separation.
« Last Edit: Sat, 23 August 2014, 23:55:30 by phoenix1234 »
I like linear switches

Offline bueller

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 24 August 2014, 00:32:32 »
It's funny because people use Krytox for lube, which EliteKeyboards specifically recommends against:

"These lubes are intended for closed systems or for applications where oil is periodically reapplied to the initially applied lubricant, because the Krytox oil in the lubricant separates from the PTFE solids if the system isn't sealed or doesn't constantly mix the lubricant (which reflows the solids). Sure, it's great lube for high speed bearings and extreme temperature environments, but keyswitches are open systems at room temperature and the oil will soon separate and pool or drip out the bottom of the switch leaving you with gummier solids that no longer flow and just attract dust. We did tests a couple years ago with Krytox out of curiosity, and after the oil separates off a few days or a week later, the difference from an un-lubed switch is mostly negligible."

All that time, and basically a few weeks later, no difference in feeling. If you're going to lube, at least use a different type. Despite the premium placed on automotive lube, there's no difference at all w/ unlubed.

Just as medicine has placebos, I'm convinced that the keyboard community has more placebos than any other hobby I dabble in (bolt-action rifles, billiards, and hydroponics). People do something, and utterly convince themselves it *must* make a difference in feeling, when the science says otherwise.
Depends what lube they're referring to. I have the thick lube packs from mkawa and it definitely doesn't separate even in our hot Australian weather. Actually just checked the little tray I squeezed some out into last time I lubed (6+ months ago) and it looks just like the day I used it.
It's a good width!  If it's half-width it's too narrow, and full-width is too wide. 

[WTT] bueller's trade thread - CLACKS WANTED

Offline Novus

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Re: (rant) I think im going to give up on lubing switches and stickers
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 02 September 2014, 22:45:32 »
Wasn't there a part in that lube thing about not telling Geekhack also