GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard

[MOZ]

Yeah, I have the same concern, since it is so large, there can be flex, however, if we move the bent "feets" to the top and bottom, that should solve the issue.

Basically take this design:

And instead of the large cutouts, have switch holes and extra space on the top and bottom, where the plate would bend.

[samwisekoi]

Hmmm.  Those bent-plate "cases" were originally a samwisekoi design, and I have a couple live and useable now.  One is a Poker X, and the other a hard-wired 75% similar to the Epsilon.  Based on how those feel in use, I would not recommend that design for such a massive keyboard.  However, if you did want to do that, then MOZ has the right idea.  Once we get the mechanicals locked, I'll work with jdcarpe to expand the plate with front and back flanges and the tiny notches the machine shop needs to use as bending guides.

(I can post some pictures of my actual "cases" details, if anyone wants to see them up close.)

In other news, I am considering adding GH-122 and JD40 expansion kits to Nuclear Data Green.  JD40 is harder because of the necessary flexibility of the design.  However, the only problem with a GH-122 is having enough keycaps.  Imagining what I'd want to actually add to my keyboard to make it more useful than the Model M it would replace, I come up with the attached layout.  (The quad-arrow key would really function as a down-arrow to enable an inverted-T cluster.

I added eight macro keycaps and  the undo-cut-copy-paste set that the old Macintosh Extended Keyboards had.

Thoughts on any of the above?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  I might prefer the look of an ISO Return key, but probably not the feel.

[MOZ]

Does SP have SA relegendables? Those would be awesome.

[bianco]

although i do understand that the layout was based on an existing keyboard (that i'm honestly not familiar with)...
i'm looking at soldering switches on all the available 'holes' (like in Hak Foo's plate)... is this possible?

[Ishamael]

Depending on the cost, if you need another prototype tester, I could be in. I find this idea awesome.

[samwisekoi]

Does SP have SA relegendables? Those would be awesome.

Yes, but they are very costly at low volume.  The Nuclear Data Green set is so  inexpensive because almost the entire set uses the same mold (SA 1x Semi-Matte Row 3 White on Green) so the volumes for keycaps made with that one mold are huge.  If we jump to a different mold, costs go way up.

So the 15-key Numbers Kit costs $6 for all 15 keycaps.  For MOQ=25 keycaps (with clear tops) each Relegendable is $5.  Even at MOQ=250, each Relegendable is $1.

So an M1-M12 set would be $5+/- at MOQ=25, but a 12-keycap package of Relegendables would be $12 at MOQ=25 sets.

I could add any combination of these and the only question becomes whether any make MOQ at those prices.

Thoughts, anyone?

I'll cross-post this question in the GB thread as well.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[samwisekoi]

although i do understand that the layout was based on an existing keyboard (that i'm honestly not familiar with)...
i'm looking at soldering switches on all the available 'holes' (like in Hak Foo's plate)... is this possible?

Yup.  Totally supported.  Go crazy!

Does SP have SA relegendables? Those would be awesome.

Yes; see above for pricing considerations.

Depending on the cost, if you need another prototype tester, I could be in. I find this idea awesome.

You are in and we are up to eight, so this is definitely a go.

Now all I am waiting for is the Unicomp 122 case to see if that is a viable option ($20 each!).

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Ishamael]

although i do understand that the layout was based on an existing keyboard (that i'm honestly not familiar with)...
i'm looking at soldering switches on all the available 'holes' (like in Hak Foo's plate)... is this possible?

Yup.  Totally supported.  Go crazy!

Does SP have SA relegendables? Those would be awesome.

Yes; see above for pricing considerations.

Depending on the cost, if you need another prototype tester, I could be in. I find this idea awesome.

You are in and we are up to eight, so this is definitely a go.

Now all I am waiting for is the Unicomp 122 case to see if that is a viable option ($20 each!).

 - Ron | samwisekoi

What's the buy in cost estimated to be? Money is kinda tight at the moment, so I have to be careful.

[samwisekoi]

PCB cost will be my cost plus shipping (to me and from me to you.)

So, if we hit 10 boards, that would be $60 for the board, call it $2 each to ship to me, $20 each to pack it in a game box and Priority Mail it within CONUS.  Plus another $3 for the PayPal surcharge and we hit a total of $85 to someone in the USA.

That, of course, does not count the Teensy++ ($27), diodes (cheap), or 125 switches ($45 from Techkeys.us; more from Mouser).  Or keycaps ($75 for Nuclear Green Base Kit plus 22 1x blanks).  Or a case, although I am going to try and make it fit into the $20 Unicomp 122 case.

Does that answer your question?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[SpAmRaY]

125 switches ($45 from Techkeys.us; more from Mouser).

Or depending on preferred switch type you can buy genuine cherry switches from http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=43 at ~$0.50 each, the biggest pack is only 110 but I bet if you ask nicely they would accomodate a few more to get 125 at the same price per switch.

[Ishamael]

Definitely answers my question, thanks! I'll have to be tentative at this point, and double check the money situation to see whether swinging this is possible.

[samwisekoi]

125 switches ($45 from Techkeys.us; more from Mouser).

Or depending on preferred switch type you can buy genuine cherry switches from http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=43 at ~$0.50 each, the biggest pack is only 110 but I bet if you ask nicely they would accomodate a few more to get 125 at the same price per switch.

Good source.  Also, Techkeys has gen-u-ine Cherry in Black and Red.

Definitely answers my question, thanks! I'll have to be tentative at this point, and double check the money situation to see whether swinging this is possible.

Do the right thing for you!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[SpAmRaY]

Good source.  Also, Techkeys has gen-u-ine Cherry in Black and Red.

Are those 'brand new' genuine cherry switches?? Somehow I don't believe it at $0.30 each. There were some quality issues at one time also, not sure if those were isolated incidents or not.

[samwisekoi]

Good source.  Also, Techkeys has gen-u-ine Cherry in Black and Red.

Are those 'brand new' genuine cherry switches?? Somehow I don't believe it at $0.30 each. There were some quality issues at one time also, not sure if those were isolated incidents or not.

I just ordered some, so will report back either way.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Dubsgalore]

I'd be in for ansi/1.5 bottom row and if it could fit the 2000 series. I was going to get an ISO 2100 modded to ansi but if this was designed to fit into place in the 2100 case and was ansi it would solve a lot of problems for me ) (ansi 2100s are a lot of fun)

[pasph]

I can be in if Dorkvader can assembly it for me

[samwisekoi]

I'd be in for ansi/1.5 bottom row and if it could fit the 2000 series. I was going to get an ISO 2100 modded to ansi but if this was designed to fit into place in the 2100 case and was ansi it would solve a lot of problems for me ) (ansi 2100s are a lot of fun)

I need a Cherry case to make that happen.  If it can be done to fit both the Unicomp 122 and the Cherry 122, then I am more than willing to do so.

But I will need to borrow a case to take careful measurements.

I can be in if Dorkvader can assembly it for me

Up to DV, but I am happy to send him your PCB if that is the agreed path.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[dorkvader]

Yeah your completely correct you should at least meet their tolerances.  Why did you choose 6061 aluminum?

It's light and stiff and I want to keep the weight down for the portability.

Hmmm.  Those bent-plate "cases" were originally a samwisekoi design, and I have a couple live and useable now.

They were used by dox in his original DoxKB in 2011. You independently invented them, but they are not your original design.

Sadly the pictures were lost. I think the solidworks file he has there is the right one, but I can't view it to make sure.

I can be in if Dorkvader can assembly it for me

I will give you a discount because I really want to assemble one.

[0100010]

Only comment is if you do make a GH-122 nuclear green set - I already bought the 116 key set plus about 5 other sets to get all the keys I needed. 

I am also going to name my GH-122 'The Green Monster'; nuclear green caps on Cherry MX Green switches.  Will have to think about what color to paint the plate / case.

[pasph]

Yeah your completely correct you should at least meet their tolerances.  Why did you choose 6061 aluminum?

Hmmm.  Those bent-plate "cases" were originally a samwisekoi design, and I have a couple live and useable now.

I can be in if Dorkvader can assembly it for me

I will give you a discount because I really want to assemble one.

My lucky day

[mrklaw]

Count me in for one. I'd like to build one of these too. I've been looking for an F-122 on ebay but building my own is even better.

[dorkvader]

Count me in for one. I'd like to build one of these too. I've been looking for an F-122 on ebay but building my own is even better.

Keep in mind that this will use cherry (or ALPS) switches which are different than IBM ones. It'll make a great keyboard though

[mrklaw]

Count me in for one. I'd like to build one of these too. I've been looking for an F-122 on ebay but building my own is even better.

Keep in mind that this will use cherry (or ALPS) switches which are different than IBM ones. It'll make a great keyboard though

Right, I originally mentioned that I liked that it was using Cherry MX or ALPS keyswitches but I edited out in one of my revisions. Thanks for the heads up though.

[dorkvader]

You may be interested in MX green, which (in my opinion) are the closest to IBM buckling spring. They are heavy and clicky. Getting some MX blue and modifying them with heavier springs is a good idea.

[Hak Foo]

Honestly, I think if you like buckling springs, you'll probably prefer a clicky ALPS to MX Green or Blue.   You can either harvest them from a vintage board, or just order a box from Matias (about $60 shipped for two hundred) or mechanicalkeyboards.com- in smaller packs but marginally pricier per unit.

[MOZ]

Clicky Alps are amazing, only issue is the lack of keycaps for them.

[samwisekoi]

I woke up too early this morning, so I re-did the GH-122 controller.  The eagle-eyed among you will be able to detect the slight modification and the additional capability I am aiming for...

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Spolier:

More

If you guessed that I added a CAPSLOCK LED wire to the left ribbon cable -- you are correct! 

[SL89]

You may be interested in MX green, which (in my opinion) are the closest to IBM buckling spring. They are heavy and clicky. Getting some MX blue and modifying them with heavier springs is a good idea.

I'll probably be getting Greens for all of their goodness. Dorkvader, i am in MA and was wondering if you would consider assembling mine as well? I have a few smaller (and less important projects) coming soon that i'd want to learn to solder on before i undertook this project and considering this is pretty much a dream board, i def wouldnt want to bork it up! PM me if you could and we can talk a bit more about it.

[kalrand]

I think this is probably the closest to the board that I'd want in the end too... but I don't think it's happening this paycheck...

[xavierblak]

Is the plan to do a production run of this after the proto run? I definitely want to get one of these but I'm trying to scale back my keyboard budget a bit. I'd rather only buy one.

[dorkvader]

You may be interested in MX green, which (in my opinion) are the closest to IBM buckling spring. They are heavy and clicky. Getting some MX blue and modifying them with heavier springs is a good idea.

I'll probably be getting Greens for all of their goodness. Dorkvader, i am in MA and was wondering if you would consider assembling mine as well? I have a few smaller (and less important projects) coming soon that i'd want to learn to solder on before i undertook this project and considering this is pretty much a dream board, i def wouldnt want to bork it up! PM me if you could and we can talk a bit more about it.

Yep, I'd be down for assembly. PM incoming.

Depending on how far away you live, I might even be willing to hand deliver it

[berserkfan]

I will see what I can do, but I am not terrific about measure things accurately.

There are several different models in 2000 family. Some are extremely hard to get, others not too much like 2551 and 2500 are probably most common.

HA!

I was looking for them for the longest time. Now I've given up.

[berserkfan]

This might be a stupid suggestion, but have we thought about talking to Unicomp about what their 122 key cases would cost?

We don't need barrels or whatever, but just the outer plastic. Mount it all to a steel plate (and the bend could be in the plate!) and then add pcbs.

I also don't even solder, so if this is a stupid idea, well, ignore it.

Any case from Unicomp is $20.  But using a Unicomp 122 case would (likely) require a bent PCB / plate.

awesome! my vote is for as much stock materials as possible, to lower costs and increase availability. You don't want to be short one part after the group buy (eg if a casing gets broken), and totally have no way of replacing it.

[berserkfan]

A few suggestions:

1) since we're really going all out, might as well have a proper branding that looks elegant to non-geekhackers. I propose a simple, discreet and clean looking little square metal plate with just GH on it. Much like the famous IBM logo on buckling spring keyboards.

2) lets arrange for a nuclear data relegendables thing anyway but not do it with the current group buy since that will hold up that buy. Nuclear plants go very well with these shiny relegendable tops! If we give more time for that relegendables thing to meet MOQ it should not be hard to sell 25 sets of 12 each. I am tempted to buy 2 sets alone.

3) I notice people talking about greens. Let me suggest matching blues with clear springs. A lot of people including me have unused clear springs, and I can assure all as a big user of buckling springs, that blue stems with clear springs are excellent (closer) substitutes for buckling springs than Cherry greens.

4) unicomp casing comes with unicomp logo on the leds. We need to get rid of that.

[samwisekoi]

$6 buys a proper LED plate with no logo or modern icons.

I would very much like to see a silver and black medallion.  Perhaps GH-122 over GEEK and HACK. Striped lettering would be excellent!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[jdcarpe]

$6 buys a proper LED plate with no logo or modern icons.

I would very much like to see a silver and black medallion.  Perhaps GH-122 over GEEK and HACK. Striped lettering would be excellent!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[samwisekoi]

Nice! Can the third line be GH122 ?

[jdcarpe]

Nice! Can the third line be GH122 ?

Yeah, I can work on it, but the font as installed spaces out the numbers too much, and it didn't look right.

[dorkvader]

My pro MS paint skills are no match for an actual font.

[Hypersphere]

For myself, I would be more than content to refurbish an IBM F122 (or even an M122, including a bolt mod). However, if I were interested in a 122 with something other than capacitive buckling spring switches, I might consider Matias tactile-clicky switches. I also wonder if CM would sell their hybrid Topres with Cherry-mx-compatible stems.

[SpAmRaY]

For myself, I would be more than content to refurbish an IBM F122 (or even an M122, including a bolt mod). However, if I were interested in a 122 with something other than capacitive buckling spring switches, I might consider Matias tactile-clicky switches. I also wonder if CM would sell their hybrid Topres with Cherry-mx-compatible stems.

Topre switches aren't discrete.

[samwisekoi]

Nice! Can the third line be GH122 ?

Yeah, I can work on it, but the font as installed spaces out the numbers too much, and it didn't look right.

Is that "Men in Blue"?

[jdcarpe]

Nice! Can the third line be GH122 ?

Yeah, I can work on it, but the font as installed spaces out the numbers too much, and it didn't look right.

Is that "Men in Blue"?

Yes sir, that would be the one.

[samwisekoi]

This is City Medium, modified by hand in a manner similar to the original.


Very Draft GH122 Logo

Have to improve the anti-aliasing and make it more blocky.  And improve the kerning between 1 and 2.

Possibly also reduce the number of "stripes" to avoid copyright issues.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Hak Foo]

If you want to use Unicomp cases, a rectangular logo would fit the space on the top left.

[berserkfan]

This is City Medium, modified by hand in a manner similar to the original.

(Attachment Link)
Very Draft GH122 Logo

Have to improve the anti-aliasing and make it more blocky.  And improve the kerning between 1 and 2.

Possibly also reduce the number of "stripes" to avoid copyright issues.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

A simple GH would be better.

Remember how simple and classic the IBM logo looks on the keyboards you are modelling after!

When your co-workers are looking from a distance of six feet away, or you are showing a photo of this keyboard on your phone, people should be able to tell that it is a GH not IBM. Without straining eyes to see the words. Distinctive and individualized yet totally not obtrusive.

[Hak Foo]

How about something like the back-panel badges on pre-PS/2 IBM kit... "GH" or even "Geekhack" in the big striped font, and then "GH122" in small Helvetica, or the italic serif font they used for front panel badges.

[berserkfan]

How about something like the back-panel badges on pre-PS/2 IBM kit... "GH" or even "Geekhack" in the big striped font, and then "GH122" in small Helvetica, or the italic serif font they used for front panel badges.

This makes a lot of sense.

Details at the back, but elegant simplicity in front. Because stickers can be custom-done on an ordinary printer without unnecessary expense I vote that we give the back sticker serial numbers. Obviously Samwisekoi will get the most coveted 00001 and lets hope that we can sell 99,999 within a 20 year run, after which probably all keyboards will be obsolete as computing becomes purely mental.

[bazh]

Is that an LED screen in your mockup, we could just roll it that way

That's the controller daughterboard, for the Teensy++ 2.0.

:facepalm:

as a side note we really need an animated facepalm smiley...i do it alot....

just see this post and I bring you this

[dorkvader]

I like the idea of a square [GH] badge where the normal IBM one would be. I wonder if we can get it anodyzed and then engraved like JDcarpe's awesome business cards he handed out at keycon.

I recommend against helvetica on the subtitle unless you play with the character spacing: I have read it can be hard to read.

Edit: made a pixel font of the "GH" logo in black and white only


Here's a comparison with Ron's effort:


I think I could make the top bar of the "H" be more blocky. I hesitated about the "rounded" upper inside edge of the "G" but if you zoom in his image does get lighter there. There is one change on mine from the first image to the comparison, also in the "G". I also might want to make the far upper right outside "curve" of the "G" a little more blocky. Thoughts?


Edit2: I think the serifs are too narrow. I'll measure an actual IBM logo and fix from there.