Author Topic: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard  (Read 120395 times)

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Offline 0100010

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #350 on: Thu, 02 October 2014, 10:38:22 »
is it possible to add a USB hub/ports to this monster?

I was thinking of this too.  Putting an externally powered USB hub in it, one port connected to the Teensy, the other port connected to an external port to connect to the computer, and yet other ports used only for power for other devices in the keyboard (LEDs, solenoid, LCD, etc).
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Offline samwisekoi

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #351 on: Thu, 02 October 2014, 12:14:56 »
Couple of things...

Power
My preference is to use an external 5v power brick for the LEDs.  Except for ground loop issues, this would be easy to implement; just run the external power source to the power rail of the LED transistors.  This is WAY DOWN on my to-do list.

Case Design
Using the photos from berserkfan, I got the GH36 case down to $31 of laser-cut Acrylic for a PAIR of topless wedge cases.  And designed properly, that top frame for the GH-122/153 can be 3D printed for $49.  The rest of the case would be flat Acrylic or metal that can be easily laser-cut.

That is a HUGE win!

Thanks berserkfan!


 - Ron | samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline berserkfan

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #352 on: Thu, 02 October 2014, 12:44:08 »
Couple of things...

Power
My preference is to use an external 5v power brick for the LEDs.  Except for ground loop issues, this would be easy to implement; just run the external power source to the power rail of the LED transistors.  This is WAY DOWN on my to-do list.

Case Design
Using the photos from berserkfan, I got the GH36 case down to $31 of laser-cut Acrylic for a PAIR of topless wedge cases.  And designed properly, that top frame for the GH-122/153 can be 3D printed for $49.  The rest of the case would be flat Acrylic or metal that can be easily laser-cut.

That is a HUGE win!

Thanks berserkfan!


 - Ron | samwisekoi

I am happy to be useful for once!

But regarding that top frame, would it be possible to make it from a few flat pieces of plastic that we screw together with the aid of other plastic pieces to hold the screws, instead of via 3D printing? I am pretty much for avoiding the 3D printing process altogether, mainly because there are no economies of scale and the accretive process makes for less durable casings. I remember asking and the shop said the plastic they use melts at 65 degrees C. That’s ridiculous. If I left my keyboard in a car in summer, the keyboard would get soft and floppy!

Now another thing as you can see in my photos, the Tipro bottom plate actually has holes in it for sticking their rubber pads. I am for the use of rubber or silicon if you’re going for an acrylic bottom plate, because acrylic is too easy to scratch and also we want a keyboard that doesn’t slide off an uneven surface.

It’s late now. Tomorrow I will draw (by hand) an illustration of what I mean. I’m afraid I am too technologically ancient to do this any other way.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline dorkvader

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #353 on: Thu, 02 October 2014, 15:35:37 »
Couple of things...

Power
My preference is to use an external 5v power brick for the LEDs.  Except for ground loop issues, this would be easy to implement; just run the external power source to the power rail of the LED transistors.  This is WAY DOWN on my to-do list.
I don't think ground loops will be an issue with this, but if you're worried, you just have to tie the grounds together at just one point.

Offline samwisekoi

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #354 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 12:01:46 »
Based on berserkfan's input, I have put together a semi-modular case design.  It will use laser-cut side panels, a half-round rod for the front, and a flat metal or acrylic rectangle for the bottom.  I am getting a quote for the design in 5x5" form as a test, and if successful, will post larger format versions here.

I've attached a simple 3D rendering as well as the cut sheet for the side panels.  They will be cut from 6mm/0.250" black Acrylic.  I will have a 5x5" bottom piece cut from 3mm/0.125" matching Acrylic, and also a 4.5" front curve from 0.50" tall half-round rod.  The blue square on the cut sheet is a 1.00"x1.00" square for reference and calibration.

The support rod in the center is a simple 0.250x0.500" nylon tube for a stand-off.  The front half-round is clear Acrylic in this mock-up, and as such suitable for backlighting or adding indicator LEDs.

Anyhow, this is an extensible design.  Thanks, berserkfan!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

But regarding that top frame, would it be possible to make it from a few flat pieces of plastic that we screw together with the aid of other plastic pieces to hold the screws, instead of via 3D printing? I am pretty much for avoiding the 3D printing process altogether, mainly because there are no economies of scale and the accretive process makes for less durable casings. I remember asking and the shop said the plastic they use melts at 65 degrees C. That’s ridiculous. If I left my keyboard in a car in summer, the keyboard would get soft and floppy!

Now another thing as you can see in my photos, the Tipro bottom plate actually has holes in it for sticking their rubber pads. I am for the use of rubber or silicon if you’re going for an acrylic bottom plate, because acrylic is too easy to scratch and also we want a keyboard that doesn’t slide off an uneven surface.

It’s late now. Tomorrow I will draw (by hand) an illustration of what I mean. I’m afraid I am too technologically ancient to do this any other way.
« Last Edit: Sat, 04 October 2014, 14:50:50 by samwisekoi »
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline berserkfan

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #355 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 12:35:56 »

Anyhow, this is an extensible design.  Thanks, berserkfan!

 - Ron | samwisekoi


Well, I hope my hand-drawn designs were useful... I feel really embarrassed to be using hand drawn designs at a time when the entire younger generation seems to be CAD experts, that's why I told you over email not to show anyone what I'd done. Hope the modular idea will work in practice so that we can attain economies of scale for most keyboard casings.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline MOZ

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #356 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 12:57:11 »
Looking very interesting Ron. The file "GH36x2 Laser Wedge Sides.png" represents pieces that have to be cut for a pair of cases if I'm not wrong, correct?

Offline Hak Foo

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #357 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 12:58:11 »
A thought: on the full-size one, you could have several standoffs to reduce flex.  Looking at the empty case from my Ducky 1008XM, it has three or so standoffs.
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Offline samwisekoi

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #358 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 14:19:59 »
Well, I hope my hand-drawn designs were useful... I feel really embarrassed to be using hand drawn designs at a time when the entire younger generation seems to be CAD experts, that's why I told you over email not to show anyone what I'd done. Hope the modular idea will work in practice so that we can attain economies of scale for most keyboard casings.

They were.  I don't think we need quite that many parts, but an extensible design doesn't necessarily mean extensible parts.  I'll draft end plates for various widths, and longer back plates are probably attainable from any plastics shop.

A thought: on the full-size one, you could have several standoffs to reduce flex.  Looking at the empty case from my Ducky 1008XM, it has three or so standoffs.

Yes.  The GH36 has a single mounting hole in the center, and when used as a split keyboard, it really needs the center support.

I'll add more standoff mounts to the GH-122/153 PCB to enable a well-supported plate-less build.

Looking very interesting Ron. The file "GH36x2 Laser Wedge Sides.png" represents pieces that have to be cut for a pair of cases if I'm not wrong, correct?

You are exactly correct.  That is the cut template for a GH36x2 split keyboard.  The GH-122/153 would need fewer, larger pieces.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[UPDATE]

I drew this comparison up so people could see the various sizes of side plates next to each other.  From shortest to longest they are:
 - 5-row keyboard (60% through wide-and-narrow GH-122)
 - 6-row keyboard (GH36)
 - 8-row keyboard (Full-size GH-122/153)

Width is varied by getting longer or shorter front and back rails.  And then the bottom plate is sized to fit.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[/UPDATE]
« Last Edit: Sat, 04 October 2014, 14:46:44 by samwisekoi »
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline MOZ

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #359 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 15:43:31 »
How do you intend for the pieces to combine?

Offline berserkfan

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #360 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 15:44:48 »

They were.  I don't think we need quite that many parts, but an extensible design doesn't necessarily mean extensible parts.  I'll draft end plates for various widths, and longer back plates are probably attainable from any plastics shop.

[UPDATE]

I drew this comparison up so people could see the various sizes of side plates next to each other.  From shortest to longest they are:
 - 5-row keyboard (60% through wide-and-narrow GH-122)
 - 6-row keyboard (GH36)
 - 8-row keyboard (Full-size GH-122/153)

Width is varied by getting longer or shorter front and back rails.  And then the bottom plate is sized to fit.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[/UPDATE]

Ah, I see where you're coming from. You have the concept of a basic design, except scaled to whichever size of kb that geekhackers want.

My concept is more akin to the Tipro that I am using. There is a minimum base keyboard, and if you want anything else (function row, tenkeys, numpad, etc.) these are added on. My concept has the advantage of allowing people to swap parts around (eg put numpad on the left side) but it involves having more components which might confuse people. Yours is definitely far simpler and idiot proof.

However, I would still urge doing a design where the majority of the parts are common to all keyboard layouts. That way it is easier for us to attain economies of scale in production.

Regarding your choice of standoff for the Gh36, would it be the same as standoffs used in Filco LEDs and in the G122? I'm thinking that standardization of parts would make things pretty cheap. These LED standoffs come in like, what, packs of thousands for only a few bucks?
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Offline samwisekoi

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #361 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 16:09:32 »
How do you intend for the pieces to combine?

I am going to use Acrylic cement for the prototypes and see how it looks.  Cheap and very strong.

Nylon, POM, metal or mixed materials would mean screws.  That means a thicker base to enable either threading into it or countersinking screw heads.  I have a TG3 and hate the damn exposed screw heads on the bottom.  A thin Acrylic base plate with some slim non-slip dots for feet will be the first pass answer.  The PCB will of course be screwed to the top via drilled and tapped holes (3mm or 6-32).

Ah, I see where you're coming from. You have the concept of a basic design, except scaled to whichever size of kb that geekhackers want.

My concept is more akin to the Tipro that I am using. There is a minimum base keyboard, and if you want anything else (function row, tenkeys, numpad, etc.) these are added on. My concept has the advantage of allowing people to swap parts around (eg put numpad on the left side) but it involves having more components which might confuse people. Yours is definitely far simpler and idiot proof.

However, I would still urge doing a design where the majority of the parts are common to all keyboard layouts. That way it is easier for us to attain economies of scale in production.

Regarding your choice of standoff for the Gh36, would it be the same as standoffs used in Filco LEDs and in the G122? I'm thinking that standardization of parts would make things pretty cheap. These LED standoffs come in like, what, packs of thousands for only a few bucks?

Let me make the first ones and see.  I was indeed thinking of those same standoffs, perhaps not in that identical size.  I may do the initial build with Acrylic rods cut to length and drilled and tapped.  That keeps the issue of joining dissimilar material at bay for now.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline SL89

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #362 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 10:52:35 »
Clearly i have missed a lot in this thread. I'm glad to see this is still ongoing. I need to catch up.

Offline 0100010

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #363 on: Thu, 09 October 2014, 09:08:16 »
One thought I had - spacebars that don't have a center stem.  Any need to add a switch position for this?
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Offline samwisekoi

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #364 on: Thu, 09 October 2014, 09:56:34 »
One thought I had - spacebars that don't have a center stem.  Any need to add a switch position for this?

You mean those wierd-ass Cherry spacebars with the offset switch?  There should be room on the bottom row, so if someone can point me to the specs, I'll add the position.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline berserkfan

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #365 on: Thu, 09 October 2014, 12:51:19 »
One thought I had - spacebars that don't have a center stem.  Any need to add a switch position for this?

You mean those wierd-ass Cherry spacebars with the offset switch?  There should be room on the bottom row, so if someone can point me to the specs, I'll add the position.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

This is one freaking brillant idea!

We have so many off centre stem space bars floating around unused! Now they will get used! (Not to mention, Cherry's logic was actually sound since most people do use the spacebar on the right side!)
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline mrklaw

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #366 on: Thu, 16 October 2014, 15:06:39 »
If I bought the Nuclear Data keycap set, how many relegendables would I potentially need to supplement it for this keyboard?
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Offline samwisekoi

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #367 on: Thu, 16 October 2014, 15:38:12 »
If I bought the Nuclear Data keycap set, how many relegendables would I potentially need to supplement it for this keyboard?

It depends on the layout you use.  If you only bought the Base Kit, and you go with the traditional 122-key layout, you'll need another 18 keycaps.  I have shown them as blanks on this layout:

79947-0
GH-122 in the traditional 122-key layout with Nuclear Data Green Base Kit

In another configuration, you would need 30 additional keycaps.

79945-1
GH-122 in another possible layout with Nuclear Data Green Base Kit

But that, of course, is why there were so many child kits.  And since all of the single-unit keycaps have the same profile, you can place them wherever you'd like.

Does that answer your question?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
« Last Edit: Thu, 16 October 2014, 16:15:52 by samwisekoi »
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #368 on: Fri, 17 October 2014, 11:23:47 »
Cherry offset switch position for 6.25 is actually the same exact spot for a 7x from the left. So it already taken care of on the PCB.

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #369 on: Fri, 17 October 2014, 12:10:36 »
Cherry offset switch position for 6.25 is actually the same exact spot for a 7x from the left. So it already taken care of on the PCB.

Ivan, do you mean to say that I can use a 6.25x with off center stem the same as a 7x?

I really wish I could use my Cherry keyboard spacebars on other keyboards. Likewise I have unused/ unusable Tai Hao 7x that I wish could be used for something.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline MOZ

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #370 on: Fri, 17 October 2014, 12:59:43 »
The switch position is the same, not the position of the stabilizers themselves.

Offline samwisekoi

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #371 on: Fri, 17 October 2014, 14:20:48 »
Cherry offset switch position for 6.25 is actually the same exact spot for a 7x from the left. So it already taken care of on the PCB.

Excellent, thank you for the clarification.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #372 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 12:58:01 »
Any news or updates?

Offline Hak Foo

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #373 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 19:41:39 »
Good question.  I've been holding off on buying boards because I expect this to lighten my wallet substantially.  I already have everything I need save PCB, plate, and case.
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Offline 0100010

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #374 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 20:52:05 »
Good question.  I've been holding off on buying boards because I expect this to lighten my wallet substantially.  I already have everything I need save PCB, plate, and case.

Ditto, but I'm in no rush on this board.
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Offline Niomosy

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #375 on: Thu, 30 October 2014, 17:36:42 »
This keyboard is going to heavily tempt me to want to get a set of Dasher terminal themed keys



Offline SL89

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #376 on: Fri, 07 November 2014, 13:24:11 »
This keyboard is going to heavily tempt me to want to get a set of Dasher terminal themed keys

Yes, so much yes

Offline samwisekoi

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #377 on: Sat, 08 November 2014, 09:41:58 »
Greetings!

While the GH36 Matrix Keypad and the Nuclear Data Green keycap group buy (and recently, the JD45 PCB layout) have taken my time away from the GH-122/154, I have not forgotten!  In fact, you should all take comfort that I am using those lesser boards to aid my learning curve as I work my way up to the battleship that is the one and only GH-122.

Rhetoric aside, I now have the aforementioned Nuclear Data Green keycaps, and it is clear they need a proper home, so I spent some time the last couple of days working on the GH-122.  Specifically, I took some detailed measurements of the Unicomp PC-122 case to work out block spacing for the GH-122 PCB.


Unicomp PC-122 block spacing of 0.350"

The blocks are 0.350" apart, with 0.280" separators.  These dimensions are simple to bring into the GH-122, enabling the PCB to fit into the $20 Unicomp case.  However, what isn't so simple is the fact that the Unicomp (i.e. IBM-designed) case is designed for a curved keyboard, and so the opening is taller than normal, and of course it is concave, making the actual arc even longer.

On a flat plane the main blocks are 3.997" tall (I am using 4.000" for the design) but an MX keyboard block is only 3.750" tall.  That leaves us with an extra 0.250" of visible gap above and/or below the keycaps.  I cannot make a curved PCB (well, I can, but I am not going to!) but I could distribute the extra space between the rows.  This turns a quarter-inch gap into four invisible 1/16" gaps.

So here is the question:

Should I add 0.0625" spacing between the rows?  It won't affect how the PCB looks, and it will enable it to better fill the openings on the Unicomp PC-122 case.  And any custom plates and cases can have the same spacing as the PCB, so that will be fine as well.

What won't be fine is that every designer will have to remember that this PCB has that extra spacing, and that the 0.750" square grid is stretched vertically into an 0.750 x 0.8125" grid.  This will be especially important for 2x vertical keys like ISO Enter and the pair on a numpad.

TL;DR  Should I add an extra 1/16" between rows to make the PCB fit better in the PC-122 case?


 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline dorkvader

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #378 on: Sat, 08 November 2014, 09:57:58 »
What won't be fine is that every designer will have to remember that this PCB has that extra spacing, and that the 0.750" square grid is stretched vertically into an 0.750 x 0.8125" grid.  This will be especially important for 2x vertical keys like ISO Enter and the pair on a numpad.

this is my primary concern when messing with spacing. What keycaps do you plan to put on the vertical keys? They would need to have custom stem spacing, which is expensive and hard to do.

I think you should keep the 0.75" spacing and just split the difference so half the "gap" is on the bottom and the other half if at the top.

Offline samwisekoi

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #379 on: Sat, 08 November 2014, 10:23:03 »
My plan was to bottom align the numpad Enter and top-align the ISO Enter and numpad Plus.  And if I thought this was a good or even benign path, I'd have just done it.  Like using the 0.350" spacing between blocks.  There is no standard there, and it wouldn't affect anybody's CAD templates, so that I will just do.  But that vertical gap is really quite blatant.  Maybe I'll do a mock-up with a Phantom PCB or a laser-cut plate and take some photos.

Hmmm.

I could instead just add some space above and below the ISO Enter key.  That would eliminate most of the problem and provide some fill.  I don't think the 1/16" extra gaps would be visible except if a keycap spans the gap (like the 2x verticals.)

Thanks for your input.  Are you going to build one of these monsters when they eventually get built?  If so, what will you do for a case?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

What won't be fine is that every designer will have to remember that this PCB has that extra spacing, and that the 0.750" square grid is stretched vertically into an 0.750 x 0.8125" grid.  This will be especially important for 2x vertical keys like ISO Enter and the pair on a numpad.

this is my primary concern when messing with spacing. What keycaps do you plan to put on the vertical keys? They would need to have custom stem spacing, which is expensive and hard to do.

I think you should keep the 0.75" spacing and just split the difference so half the "gap" is on the bottom and the other half if at the top.
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline Hak Foo

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #380 on: Sat, 08 November 2014, 11:27:16 »
I think we really need to consider that almost everyone using this PCB is going to go plate-mount.

ALPS requires it, and even with MX, the board is so big that flex is likely to be a serious issue.  I've used a G80-8200-- PCB mount of similar size-- and you can feel it sag when you type.  I suppose the performance of a G80-2000 or 2500 would be the best comparison though.

I'm leaning towards using that wedge case design, if it comes out, because that should go well with a plate-mount build.  Also, it requires much less hacking to accomodate a modern style editing block and function row.
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Offline MOZ

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #381 on: Sat, 08 November 2014, 15:25:55 »
If I ever build one knew these, I would build it using the wedge case design or something similar.

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #382 on: Sat, 08 November 2014, 17:23:26 »
Interestingly enough, the base of every Model F barrel is 0.8125" x 0.750" - with adding the curvature of the Model F plates, aligns the keys perfectly for vertical spacing.

As the GH-122 PCB / plate will not be curved; would probably be easiest to keep the standard 0.750" x 0.750".
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #383 on: Sat, 08 November 2014, 17:41:24 »
Definitely don’t add extra space between rows. Keyboards already have more space than necessary between rows.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #384 on: Sat, 08 November 2014, 18:52:08 »
Greetings!

While the GH36 Matrix Keypad and the Nuclear Data Green keycap group buy (and recently, the JD45 PCB layout) have taken my time away from the GH-122/154, I have not forgotten!  In fact, you should all take comfort that I am using those lesser boards to aid my learning curve as I work my way up to the battleship that is the one and only GH-122.


With eyeing a pricey purchase next year (leather soled shoes), AND wanting to put together a buy for those Dasher keys, my wallet is perfectly content to wait patiently on this one :D

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #385 on: Sat, 08 November 2014, 23:57:09 »
I still say we approximate a curved PCB by having a "strip" for every row to slot into regularly spaced vertical holders, Then only vertical keys become and issue. Easily solved (I think) with just leaving a larger hole in the plate and then PCB mounting them.

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #386 on: Sun, 09 November 2014, 00:51:48 »
If we have enough spacers (and these should be spaced close enough of course) then keyboard will be firmly supported and we can save the money on a metal plate. But designing these will probably be a headache given the complexity of this PCB already. EG to be totally rigid every few keys should have a spacer.
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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #387 on: Sun, 09 November 2014, 09:18:01 »
I thought of the PCB strips concept, and I think even proposed it elsewhere as "finger" PCBs.   Strip-based column wiring, 2x vertical switches, and structural rigidity were issues I didn't want to address for a board this large.  Maybe later...

For now I am staying with a flat, semi-modular PCB.  For the Unicomp PC-122 case, I have taken further measurements and am going to have a plate and/or faux-PCB made to do some test fits.  I am going to drop the non-square spacing idea, although it is gratifying to know that I reverse-engineered IBM spacing to the thousandth!  :cool:

Anyhow, I am back on this project for mechanical design.  On the PCB front, I need to hand off the JD45 PCB to jdcarpe, and then get the GH36 Beta traces finished.

I'll post more when I have the mock-ups under way.

Cheers!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline berserkfan

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #388 on: Mon, 10 November 2014, 03:40:33 »
I thought of the PCB strips concept, and I think even proposed it elsewhere as "finger" PCBs.   Strip-based column wiring, 2x vertical switches, and structural rigidity were issues I didn't want to address for a board this large.  Maybe later...

For now I am staying with a flat, semi-modular PCB.  For the Unicomp PC-122 case, I have taken further measurements and am going to have a plate and/or faux-PCB made to do some test fits.  I am going to drop the non-square spacing idea, although it is gratifying to know that I reverse-engineered IBM spacing to the thousandth!  :cool:

Anyhow, I am back on this project for mechanical design.  On the PCB front, I need to hand off the JD45 PCB to jdcarpe, and then get the GH36 Beta traces finished.

I'll post more when I have the mock-ups under way.

Cheers!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.


Ron, will you be doing another group buy for nuclear data and relegendables in the next 6 months or whenever you finish your current 122-key? I think many people will be happy to buy the keycaps once they see they have a good keyboard to put the keycaps on.

[Actually, I missed out on both group buys, they finished so fast!]
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #389 on: Mon, 10 November 2014, 09:24:32 »
Ron, will you be doing another group buy for nuclear data and relegendables in the next 6 months or whenever you finish your current 122-key? I think many people will be happy to buy the keycaps once they see they have a good keyboard to put the keycaps on.

[Actually, I missed out on both group buys, they finished so fast!]

Yes.  It may be an identical "Round 2" or I might do a Version 2 with some changes.  But one way or another, yes.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline neverused

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #390 on: Tue, 11 November 2014, 18:05:04 »
Is there a dwg file of plate so far? I would love to base a design on this.

Thank you

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #391 on: Tue, 11 November 2014, 18:58:49 »
Not yet.  Speaking for myself, have been waiting on final spacing info - and even with that, there are many options available as far as the bottom row, the 6 pack / arrow block, backspace, F rows and the left side 10 and 4 packs.  I suspect there will probably be many plate designs with singular or very few copies of each - rather than one plate design with a large number of copies.
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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #392 on: Wed, 12 November 2014, 09:25:55 »
I am making a plate to fit the PC-122 case.  Well, test fit, more like!

The critical dimension is the 0.350" block spacing, which I believe to be correct and final.  I am using .750" between the main block and the upper rows, although I think that section should be cut and separately mounted.  It probably won't need a plate except for aesthetics.

I'll post my plate design once I get the outer dimensions and mounting worked out.  Mine will have:

ANSI 122-key plus:
 - ISO Enter and \| keys
 - Offset Capslock switch
 - Winkeyless bottom row (1.5 - 1 - 1.5 - 7 - 1.5 - 1 - 1.5)
 - Cross-shaped arrow cluster
 - Cherry plate-mount stabs


PC-122 Test Plate v141111b by samwisekoi 2014

Anyhow, once I get a quote for the plate, I'll order extras for anyone who wants one.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
« Last Edit: Wed, 12 November 2014, 09:42:47 by samwisekoi »
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline berserkfan

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #393 on: Wed, 12 November 2014, 11:01:56 »
Ron, as I have said in the past, I really hope you will go for modular. Like the Tipro. The bigger a plate and casing is in one piece, the harder to make and to transport and to transform/ adjust to suit different sizes as well as the more challenge to assemble and to make every part fit precisely.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #394 on: Wed, 12 November 2014, 11:43:00 »
Ron, as I have said in the past, I really hope you will go for modular. Like the Tipro. The bigger a plate and casing is in one piece, the harder to make and to transport and to transform/ adjust to suit different sizes as well as the more challenge to assemble and to make every part fit precisely.

Yes.  Especially now that I find that Cherry used 0.375" block spacing and IBM used 0.350".  That is just enough to be hard to work around.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline kalrand

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #395 on: Thu, 13 November 2014, 16:18:33 »
I am making a plate to fit the PC-122 case.  Well, test fit, more like!

The critical dimension is the 0.350" block spacing, which I believe to be correct and final.  I am using .750" between the main block and the upper rows, although I think that section should be cut and separately mounted.  It probably won't need a plate except for aesthetics.

I'll post my plate design once I get the outer dimensions and mounting worked out.  Mine will have:

ANSI 122-key plus:
 - ISO Enter and \| keys
 - Offset Capslock switch
 - Winkeyless bottom row (1.5 - 1 - 1.5 - 7 - 1.5 - 1 - 1.5)
 - Cross-shaped arrow cluster
 - Cherry plate-mount stabs

Show Image

PC-122 Test Plate v141111b by samwisekoi 2014

Anyhow, once I get a quote for the plate, I'll order extras for anyone who wants one.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

This is the layout that all keyboards should be.

Why can I find it nowhere?
My 122 key Model M was born on July 25th, 1988.

Offline 0100010

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #396 on: Thu, 13 November 2014, 17:27:18 »
I am making a plate to fit the PC-122 case.  Well, test fit, more like!

The critical dimension is the 0.350" block spacing, which I believe to be correct and final.  I am using .750" between the main block and the upper rows, although I think that section should be cut and separately mounted.  It probably won't need a plate except for aesthetics.

I'll post my plate design once I get the outer dimensions and mounting worked out.  Mine will have:

ANSI 122-key plus:
 - ISO Enter and \| keys
 - Offset Capslock switch
 - Winkeyless bottom row (1.5 - 1 - 1.5 - 7 - 1.5 - 1 - 1.5)
 - Cross-shaped arrow cluster
 - Cherry plate-mount stabs

Show Image

PC-122 Test Plate v141111b by samwisekoi 2014

Anyhow, once I get a quote for the plate, I'll order extras for anyone who wants one.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

This is the layout that all keyboards should be.

Why can I find it nowhere?

http://pckeyboard.com/page/PC122/UB40B5A

  Quoting me causes a posting error that you need to ignore.

Offline kalrand

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #397 on: Thu, 13 November 2014, 21:44:45 »


This is the layout that all keyboards should be.

Why can I find it nowhere?

http://pckeyboard.com/page/PC122/UB40B5A

Show Image



And they have that wacky european left shift key. And the bonus ???? key jammed next to it.

Heresy!

My 122 key Model M was born on July 25th, 1988.

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #398 on: Sat, 22 November 2014, 17:12:28 »
And what makes F122s or M122s so hard to find?  I have sold plenty of them, still have plenty of them!

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Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
« Reply #399 on: Sun, 23 November 2014, 09:05:04 »
And what makes F122s or M122s so hard to find?  I have sold plenty of them, still have plenty of them!

With Cherry MX stems?  Or choice of switches?

The point here is not to replace the F-122 (or even the still-available PC-122) but to create an adaptable, programmable, modern expression of the 122-key keyboard.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case