nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre

[nubbinator]

If you despise Topre heresy, read no further.


I decided I'd do an almost blog like post on my experience with Topre in the form of the FC660C over the course of a week or so and finishing off with a proper review.  Hoffmanmyster, being the generous dictatorial overlord that he is, let me borrow his FC660C for an unspecified period of time.  I don't think I'll keep it longer than two weeks, but it's an open borrowing.  He even trusted me with a sexy as hell Pea Soup Clack, a Sifo's Soul BB V@, and a couple of Binge Caps. We'll see if that was a wise decision 



So far my thoughts on Topre are mixed.  When I got the FC660C, I sent Hoff this message:

"I'm typing this on the FC660C right now. It's taking some getting used to, but it's not bad.  Right off the bat I noticed that flat it's too flat and that standing on the legs, it's too tall, but the switches feel much better than I remember mkawa's Realforce feeling.  They feel heavier, though the landing is a little weird for me."

"There's just something weird about the landing so far.  I may get used to it, but it just is so abrupt. "

I finished out the night using it for gaming and typing and it still felt weird to me.  On day two, I decided I still have a weird love/hate relationship with Topre.  It is by far the smoothest switch I have ever used.  I cannot deny that it's pleasant to press the switch to the bump since it just feels like a glide all the way to it. The bump is almost too much for me though.  It's so severe.  You have this gentle glide down to this massive tactile bump. I love my Ergo Clears, but the Topre bump feels bigger.  The bump is nice and smooth and crisp most of the time, but occasionally gets an almost mushy feel to it.  The smooth yet crisp is a weird combination.

Up until the landing, I could see myself growing to love Topre, but the landing so far is killing Topre for me.  I've always been a heavier typist.  I don't bang the keys around and thud them bottoming out, but I'm also terrible at floating them to just past the point of actuation without bottoming out.  Topre switches feel like I have to bottom them out and that bottoming out comes so quickly and so severely that I'm beginning to think that it may be a deal breaker for me.  It's just such a heavy and unpleasant landing that it ruins all the niceness of the switch leading up to the bottoming out.

I'm hoping they grow on me and my opinion changes, but as of day two, I still can't find myself loving Topre like I do MX and Alps.  Alps just have character to them that makes them fun and MX just feel so nice to me since I don't have to thud them into the bottom of the switch.

[CPTBadAss]

I have the same experience as you do with the bottom out. I don't think I'm that heavy handed when I type but I do bottom out. The landing is too harsh for me and it really takes a toll on my hands.

[nubbinator]

I have the same experience as you do with the bottom out. I don't think I'm that heavy handed when I type but I do bottom out. The landing is too harsh for me and it really takes a toll on my hands.

Glad to know I'm not alone on that.  I really want to like the switch, but right now the bottoming out is killing it for me.  I'll see if a week or two with it changes my mind.

I can say that if I bought the board and paid the $200-300 a Topre board commands, I know I'd have a Stockholm Syndrome type thing going on and would say I love it just because I paid that much for it.  Just jumping into it, it's kind of an ambivalent feeling toward it that could easily swing one way or the other after enough time with it.  I'm just trying to stay impartial and not let any early displeasure taint my overall impression of it.

[bueller]

Thanks for the write up nubbs, maybe Topre isn't for me after all. I bottom out like crazy so this doesn't sound very appealing to me.

I think I'd find it hard to get off lubed clears, they just feel so perfect to me.

[exitfire401]

I have the same experience as you do with the bottom out. I don't think I'm that heavy handed when I type but I do bottom out. The landing is too harsh for me and it really takes a toll on my hands.

Glad to know I'm not alone on that.  I really want to like the switch, but right now the bottoming out is killing it for me.  I'll see if a week or two with it changes my mind.

I can say that if I bought the board and paid the $200-300 a Topre board commands, I know I'd have a Stockholm Syndrome type thing going on and would say I love it just because I paid that much for it.  Just jumping into it, it's kind of an ambivalent feeling toward it that could easily swing one way or the other after enough time with it.  I'm just trying to stay impartial and not let any early displeasure taint my overall impression of it.

I say this all the time, it took me a long ass time to figure out how to not bottom out on Topre. It's really worth learning though.

[Vibex]

Interesting read. I've been wanting to get a Topre board for a bit, but it sounds like it might be to tactile for me.

[demik]

topre > your life

[nubbinator]

Interesting read. I've been wanting to get a Topre board for a bit, but it sounds like it might be to tactile for me.

It's more tactile than Browns and, in a way, more tactile than Clears.  I say in a way since it's a different kind of tactility.  It's a little shorter of a tactile bump than Clears which makes it feel a little bigger even though it may actually be a smaller bump.  It's a pleasant bump and usually quite smooth, but it's the bottoming out that gets to me. 

I'd say you should definitely try it out before you discount it.  Like I said, I'm trying to remain objective about it.  I like to tease about it since it is just a fancy rubber dome (*gasp* Heresy!), but I can see how some people would love it.  I'm making it my main home keyboard for a week or two to see if my opinion changes.

[Vibex]

It's more tactile than Browns and, in a way, more tactile than Clears.  I say in a way since it's a different kind of tactility.  It's a little shorter of a tactile bump than Clears which makes it feel a little bigger even though it may actually be a smaller bump.  It's a pleasant bump and usually quite smooth, but it's the bottoming out that gets to me. 

I'd say you should definitely try it out before you discount it.  Like I said, I'm trying to remain objective about it.  I like to tease about it since it is just a fancy rubber dome (*gasp* Heresy!), but I can see how some people would love it.  I'm making it my main home keyboard for a week or two to see if my opinion changes.

I'll probably end up picking one up either way, just to give it a try. I tried them at keycon, but I didn't have all that long with them.

[Lastpilot]

Very interesting. I guess I like Topre because I'm always bottoming out no matter what switch I'm on so I might as well enjoy myself on the way there hahaha. :]

[Flyersfan1]

It's more tactile than Browns and, in a way, more tactile than Clears.  I say in a way since it's a different kind of tactility.  It's a little shorter of a tactile bump than Clears which makes it feel a little bigger even though it may actually be a smaller bump.  It's a pleasant bump and usually quite smooth, but it's the bottoming out that gets to me. 

I'd say you should definitely try it out before you discount it.  Like I said, I'm trying to remain objective about it.  I like to tease about it since it is just a fancy rubber dome (*gasp* Heresy!), but I can see how some people would love it.  I'm making it my main home keyboard for a week or two to see if my opinion changes.

I'll probably end up picking one up either way, just to give it a try. I tried them at keycon, but I didn't have all that long with them.

That's never a bad idea, worst case scenario you don't like it, they have very good resale value around here.

[exitfire401]

I like to tease about it since it is just a fancy rubber dome (*gasp* Heresy!)

It's the fanciest rubber dome!

[rowdy]

I like to tease about it since it is just a fancy rubber dome (*gasp* Heresy!)

It's the fanciest rubber dome!

The Ultimate Rubber Dome keyboard

I like the landing.  There's that resistance until it actuates, what, about 1/3 the way down, then the smooth descent all the way to the padded landing.

To me Topre bottoming out is much softer than MX or BS bottoming out.

And I bottom out all the time.  Currently I am bottoming out on a Model M )

[SSIPAK]

topre > your life

[nubbinator]

topre > your life

Also, ****, WHY CAN I NEVER CLOSE BRACKETS PROPERLY WHEN RESPONDING TO YOU. GODDAMMIT DEMIK!

I like to tease about it since it is just a fancy rubber dome (*gasp* Heresy!)

It's the fanciest rubber dome!

The Ultimate Rubber Dome keyboard

I like the landing.  There's that resistance until it actuates, what, about 1/3 the way down, then the smooth descent all the way to the padded landing.

To me Topre bottoming out is much softer than MX or BS bottoming out.

And I bottom out all the time.  Currently I am bottoming out on a Model M )

I don't usually bottom out since most of the switches I use have a higher point of actuation than Topre.  The landing with Topre is far from padded though.  I'm sure as I type more, I'll bottom out less, but it's hard not to with Topre since it's such a short throw after the tactile bump.  With my Ghost Blacks and Ergo Clears, I rarely bottom out or bottom out hard.  With Topre, it feels like I only bottom out so far.

[demik]

you're lucky i didn't catch it!

i haven't tried that fc board but, IMO, RF has the best feeling topre switches.

something about them makes them so smooth.

if only i can transfer that feeling to my hhkb, it would be GOAT.

[Belfong]

If the landing is what's bothering you, perhaps the 55g Topre will fit you since it's heavier.

[tbc]

If the landing is what's bothering you, perhaps the 55g Topre will fit you since it's heavier.

^

45g seems like it would be more useful for someone who finds blues just right, not for something that uses ergoclears (assuming 62g)

[Defect]

If the landing is what's bothering you, perhaps the 55g Topre will fit you since it's heavier.

I found 55g has a harsher bottom out.  Requires a lot of force to break the dome, followed by little pushback.  Stronger fingers = harsher bottom out.

@Nubbs I wouldn't do this with a borrowed board but I originally hated my 55g 87u, and now LOVE it after dental banding it.

[nobee]

If the landing is what's bothering you, perhaps the 55g Topre will fit you since it's heavier.

I found 55g has a harsher bottom out.  Requires a lot of force to break the dome, followed by little pushback.  Stronger fingers = harsher bottom out.

@Nubbs I wouldn't do this with a borrowed board but I originally hated my 55g 87u, and now LOVE it after dental banding it.

Dental banding was a complete game changer for me. Honestly, the feeling was night and day. It might not fix your bottoming out problem, but the typing experience was a thousand times better   for me.

Perhaps you can try landing pads? I didn't want to go that route because of the reduce key travel, but it might work for you.

[nubbinator]

Well, like Defect said, it's not my keyboard, so there won't be any dental banding or lubing unless Hoffmanmyster wants it done.

I wonder if silencing it would really make that much difference for me though since most of my issues are on the actuation side, not the return.

[Puddsy]

a dental band mod won't help that

is it 45g or 55g? if it's 55 you might want to try 45 instead, i know i like it a lot more.

[nubbinator]

It's an FC660C, so it should be 45g.

[osi]

Nubbs,

You should give the hhkb a chance again as well even if you already have in the past. A 55g hhkb seems it would suit you better than the standard 45g

The case mount switches are not harsh on the bottom out. I'm guessing due to the plastic having more give  than the plate mount

[nubbinator]

I've never tried the HHKB, but would love to give my thoughts if someone lent me one.

Topre is slowly growing on me, but I still don't love it or get the "Topre is god" mindset at this point.

[Puddsy]

Topre is slowly growing on me, but I still don't love it or get the "Topre is god" mindset at this point.

im the same

i like it but i like other things more

[osi]

The layout of the hhkb is a large factor in why I love the board so much. I love the "pop" of the tactility too

MX is naturally the tuners choice. I feel like topre offers a great experience out of the box. Both can be loved.

I enjoyed the break in period with the topre switches. More tactile at the beginning then slowly getting more buttery with use. Mmm

[nobee]

Well, like Defect said, it's not my keyboard, so there won't be any dental banding or lubing unless Hoffmanmyster wants it done.

I wonder if silencing it would really make that much difference for me though since most of my issues are on the actuation side, not the return.

Yes, you're right my mistake. In that case, landing pads wouldn't help either. I had it mixed up in my head that the landing pad mod was different than the dental band mod but it's essentially a similar silencing mod that only affects the return. I don't think there's a mod in existence that can actually soften the landing on a Topre switch.

[demik]

I've never tried the HHKB, but would love to give my thoughts if someone lent me one.

Topre is slowly growing on me, but I still don't love it or get the "Topre is god" mindset at this point.

How do you live life being so wrong?

Topre is love.
HHKB is life.

[Defect]

Well, like Defect said, it's not my keyboard, so there won't be any dental banding or lubing unless Hoffmanmyster wants it done.

I wonder if silencing it would really make that much difference for me though since most of my issues are on the actuation side, not the return.

Not sure if a FC660C would behave the same way as a Realforce 87u, but my dental bands caused my domes to sit in a "semi-actuated" position.

This made my 55g domes less "tactile" (I don't like the word tactile for any RD) and more linear with shorter travel.

It still wasn't entirely linear after the dental band + lube.  Hard to describe, just feels good, and I really like the reduced travel-to-actuation.  I suppose you could try to simulate this feeling by hover-typing on your FC660 and not releasing the dome all the way.

Unmodded 55g Topre was terrible for me.  With mod, I still prefer MX/ALPS, but now I can actually leave my 87u at work now knowing I have a nice smooth board to hammer away at.  Topre is a very smooth switch, and I wish MX boards could find a way to benefit from Topre Sliders.

[berserkfan]

I have the same experience as you do with the bottom out. I don't think I'm that heavy handed when I type but I do bottom out. The landing is too harsh for me and it really takes a toll on my hands.

Glad to know I'm not alone on that.  I really want to like the switch, but right now the bottoming out is killing it for me.  I'll see if a week or two with it changes my mind.

I can say that if I bought the board and paid the $200-300 a Topre board commands, I know I'd have a Stockholm Syndrome type thing going on and would say I love it just because I paid that much for it.  Just jumping into it, it's kind of an ambivalent feeling toward it that could easily swing one way or the other after enough time with it.  I'm just trying to stay impartial and not let any early displeasure taint my overall impression of it.

You really need to try a Dorkvader Pingmaster. Ask him for one. Its much cheaper than a Topre.

[CPTBadAss]

You really need to try a Dorkvader Pingmaster. Ask him for one. Its much cheaper than a Topre.

What board is that?

[MJ45]

I've never tried the HHKB, but would love to give my thoughts if someone lent me one.

Topre is slowly growing on me, but I still don't love it or get the "Topre is god" mindset at this point.

I never tried a FC660c, but have a HHKB that I bought before the Leo came out. To me the HHKB is not harsh at all but I'm no speed typist or heavy. Maybe the HHKB with its case mounted switch housings (plastic vs metal plate) have a softer landing? When I found out I love the feel of Topre and wanted another the Leo had just came out but I chose the Realforce 87UB55g TKL instead. I was worried that 55g might be too heavy but was surprised it wasn't. The 55g felt crisp or some say poppy. When I get past the tactile actuation point it seems to rebound faster without harsh bottoming out with the stiffer domes. But I also been using and liking some MX 65g lubed clears here and there lately.   

[nubbinator]

The more and more I use the board, the more ambivalent I find myself with Topre.

Topre is perfect after I've had a couple of beers.  It just feels nice when I've had those couple of drinks, but then when I use it in normal usage, I find myself thinking that it's nice and totally unpleasant at the same time. Maybe at the end of two weeks, I'll have grown attached to it, but so far, I really just can't see myself joining the Toprites in singing its praises.

[slickmamba]

I had a FC660c that I just sold, and the feel was fine, but it wasn't that amazing.  The 45g of the 660c vs the 45 of the hhkb is way different.  Like others have said, the bottoming out feel isn't as abrupt and some reason it actually feels softer. 

i remember telling CPT that my fingers would hurt when I started using the 660c due to the weird bottoming out sensation of the board.  Has never happened for hhkb, then again, I may have just gotten used to typing on a topre board.

[Belfong]

The more and more I use the board, the more ambivalent I find myself with Topre.

Topre is perfect after I've had a couple of beers.  It just feels nice when I've had those couple of drinks, but then when I use it in normal usage, I find myself thinking that it's nice and totally unpleasant at the same time. Maybe at the end of two weeks, I'll have grown attached to it, but so far, I really just can't see myself joining the Toprites in singing its praises.

hey nubs, don't sweat over this? After all it is a matter of personal taste.
Now that you have a Topre board, you can do some measurement and, you know, create us some Topre Dolly, please, pretty please?

[ComradeSniper]

create us some Topre Dolly, please, pretty please?

Yes please 

[berserkfan]

You really need to try a Dorkvader Pingmaster. Ask him for one. Its much cheaper than a Topre.

What board is that?

just ask the man, heh

[solarundies]

I've had a HHKB Pro 2 for about a month now and I'm not completely sold on Topre switches.

I've heard nothing but praise for them. I'm actually typing on it right now. It feels nice, then again, not really. Ambivalence is the right way to describe my feeling towards them.

I completely agree with your assessment in that it's the bottoming out that bothers me. I'm going to keep working on it to come up with a better assessment for myself.

[nubbinator]

I don't know what it is about Topre.  Put a beer or two in me and it's fantastic. It's literally one of the best feeling switches I've ever used.  Maybe I bottom out less, maybe the feeling isn't as noticeable, but put a beer or two in me and I love Topre.

Without any alcohol in me, Topre is increasingly becoming terrible feeling to me.  It's just this weird combo of crisp mushiness, where you have the disgusting mushy feeling of a rubber dome couple with a ridiculously sharp tactility.  It's wonderful and terrible at the same time. 

At this point, I'm thinking that if I was a permadrunk or just a light, speedy typist, I could easily become a Toprite; however, given my slightly heavier typing style and the fact that I only type in the 60-75WPM range, it's really not the switch for me.  I'll come to a final conclusion sometime next week, but, as objective as I'm trying to remain, it's really hard to not start making conclusions on my feelings toward Topre.

[slickmamba]

I don't know what it is about Topre.  Put a beer or two in me and it's fantastic. It's literally one of the best feeling switches I've ever used.  Maybe I bottom out less, maybe the feeling isn't as noticeable, but put a beer or two in me and I love Topre.

Without any alcohol in me, Topre is increasingly becoming terrible feeling to me.  It's just this weird combo of crisp mushiness, where you have the disgusting mushy feeling of a rubber dome couple with a ridiculously sharp tactility.  It's wonderful and terrible at the same time. 

At this point, I'm thinking that if I was a permadrunk or just a light, speedy typist, I could easily become a Toprite; however, given my slightly heavier typing style and the fact that I only type in the 60-75WPM range, it's really not the switch for me.  I'll come to a final conclusion sometime next week, but, as objective as I'm trying to remain, it's really hard to not start making conclusions on my feelings toward Topre.

I'll send you my type-s to try if you'd like.  I don't have much time to use it anway

[nubbinator]

If you think it's a better representation of Topre than the FC660, I'll gladly take it for a spin for a little while.  I really am trying to like Topre and am giving my honest feedback on it, I just know everyone has their own tastes and preferences.  I may just be one of those people who Topre isn't for.

Edit:  Based on the JDL Topre board I also have thanks to jalaj, I can say that if you are one of those people who loves light switches like MX Reds, I could see how some of the lighter Topre switches could definitely be for you.

[ComradeSniper]

I think the HHKB is miles ahead of the FC660C. It felt slightly more stiff and tactile to me. I can't guarantee that you'll like it if you're not a fan of the FC660C, but it's worth a try for sure. Note that my experience with the FC660C was with one of the early boards; I believe Intelli78's test showed that the newer FC660Cs actually have consistently heavier key weights than the older ones.

The layout is awesome if you can get used to it, too.

[slickmamba]

If you think it's a better representation of Topre than the FC660, I'll gladly take it for a spin for a little while.  I really am trying to like Topre and am giving my honest feedback on it, I just know everyone has their own tastes and preferences.  I may just be one of those people who Topre isn't for.

Edit:  Based on the JDL Topre board I also have thanks to jalaj, I can say that if you are one of those people who loves light switches like MX Reds, I could see how some of the lighter Topre switches could definitely be for you.

Oh, hmm yes the type s keys are pretty light.  It may actually feel lighter than the 660c, you will see, haha.

[nubbinator]

It's  ridiculous how wildly my feelings about Topre vacillate.  I found myself typing on them a little softer today and thinking, hey, these are actually kind of nice...if I didn't make so many damn errors while typing with them.  It's like I have to think more when I type with Topre.  I find myself messing up more easily because of the weird point of actuation is almost at the bottoming out point thing.   It's like the rebound of the switches throw my fingers onto the wrong key when I'm typing.  The rebound and everything makes it almost like typing on a hybrid trampoline bounce house where you get some crisp snappiness, but also some weird slightly rubbery and mushy rebound. 

So far the best way of summarizing Topre from my perspective is that Topre just is.  It's not exactly good, but it's not bad either.  It just is.  I can see why it's such a divisive switch and why some love it and some hate it.

Maybe using the HHKB Type S will change my tune and make me a convert.

[digi]

Topre is perfect after I've had a couple of beers.  It just feels nice when I've had those couple of drinks, but then when I use it in normal usage, I find myself thinking that it's nice and totally unpleasant at the same time.

so you're saying Demik is perma-drunk? )

It's  ridiculous how wildly my feelings about Topre vacillate.  I found myself typing on them a little softer today and thinking, hey, these are actually kind of nice...if I didn't make so many damn errors while typing with them.  It's like I have to think more when I type with Topre.  I find myself messing up more easily because of the weird point of actuation is almost at the bottoming out point thing.   It's like the rebound of the switches throw my fingers onto the wrong key when I'm typing.  The rebound and everything makes it almost like typing on a hybrid trampoline bounce house where you get some crisp snappiness, but also some weird slightly rubbery and mushy rebound. 

So far the best way of summarizing Topre from my perspective is that Topre just is.  It's not exactly good, but it's not bad either.  It just is.  I can see why it's such a divisive switch and why some love it and some hate it.

Maybe using the HHKB Type S will change my tune and make me a convert.

you should really try 55g if you're making lots of typo's, think 45g's might be too light for you.

[nubbinator]

so you're saying Demik is perma-drunk? )

Nah, he gave up the booze.

you should really try 55g if you're making lots of typo's, think 45g's might be too light for you.

It could be, but I can't tell if it's the springiness or the weight that's making me make the errors.  And sometimes I have errors galore and others I have very few.

[CPTBadAss]

It's  ridiculous how wildly my feelings about Topre vacillate.  I found myself typing on them a little softer today and thinking, hey, these are actually kind of nice...if I didn't make so many damn errors while typing with them.  It's like I have to think more when I type with Topre.  I find myself messing up more easily because of the weird point of actuation is almost at the bottoming out point thing.   It's like the rebound of the switches throw my fingers onto the wrong key when I'm typing.  The rebound and everything makes it almost like typing on a hybrid trampoline bounce house where you get some crisp snappiness, but also some weird slightly rubbery and mushy rebound. 

Up until the landing, I could see myself growing to love Topre, but the landing so far is killing Topre for me.  I've always been a heavier typist.  I don't bang the keys around and thud them bottoming out, but I'm also terrible at floating them to just past the point of actuation without bottoming out.  Topre switches feel like I have to bottom them out and that bottoming out comes so quickly and so severely that I'm beginning to think that it may be a deal breaker for me.  It's just such a heavy and unpleasant landing that it ruins all the niceness of the switch leading up to the bottoming out.

Are you me?? Your experience is exactly like mine with Topre. I couldn't adjust my typing style to fit the switches and the pains that I'd get from the bottom outs led me to stop trying Topre boards. I was trying them on and off for a long time before realizing they weren't for me. In the end, I really don't care for anything that hurts to type on.

[jacobolus]

I finally got to try typing on a 55g Topre board (mkawa’s), and unfortunately I don’t like it any better than the 45g or variable weighted Topre boards I’ve tried. They’re alright, smooth and solid, but totally uninspiring. The 55g is a bit too stiff I think, while the 45g definitely feels a bit mushy. I don’t think the buckling rubber + spring design is ever going to work for me, however it’s tweaked.

For me, there’s something very satisfying (and helpful to my fingers) about a crisp well defined tactile point that I don’t get from Topre switches. I’m not huge on linear switches but very smooth ones of exactly the right stiffness are also okay.

I can see how other folks would like them though.

[nubbinator]

 I just got a HHKB Type S in the mail from slickmamba to try out for a little while.   I can tell that the layout will take quite a bit of getting used to before I feel comfortable with it.  The layout is just such a dramatic difference from what I'm used to using. 

So far, I already notice two things about the keyboard. First, the HHKB feels much better than the FC660C.  I don't know if it's the weight of the domes, if it's easier to hit that point where you actuate without bottoming out hard, or what, but the HHKB does feel much better than the FC660C.  I can see Topre growing on me.  It's still from the god status that some people give it around here, but it certainly is not bad at all.

Second, the actuation isn't as smooth as the FC660C.   I don't know if it just needs some lube or if the HHKB is different in some important way, but there is noticeable friction when typing with it.  Not an unpleasant friction, per say, but definitely present.  I'll keep typing with this for a little while to see if I can get used to the layout and to the feel of the keyboard. 

I can definitely see why some people absolutely love the HHKB, but it is not love at first sight for me; however, it does bring me closer to an appreciation of Topre than the FC660C did.