Author Topic: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre  (Read 18276 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rowdy

  • HHKB Hapster
  • * Erudite Elder
  • Posts: 21175
  • Location: melbourne.vic.au
  • Missed another sale.
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #50 on: Thu, 04 September 2014, 21:18:24 »
Type S - does this one whistle?  Apparently quite a few of them do, and it is a known issue with no official remedy.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline ComradeSniper

  • HHKB Pro
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1086
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #51 on: Thu, 04 September 2014, 21:26:59 »
Second, the actuation isn't as smooth as the FC660C.   I don't know if it just needs some lube or if the HHKB is different in some important way, but there is noticeable friction when typing with it.  Not an unpleasant friction, per say, but definitely present.
I also noticed this when I got my Type-S. The regular HHKB doesn't do that. Not really sure why, as I thought that the Type-S only added the silencing pads.

Offline osi

  • Posts: 964
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 04 September 2014, 21:32:45 »
:popcorn:

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #53 on: Thu, 04 September 2014, 21:33:40 »
Type S - does this one whistle?  Apparently quite a few of them do, and it is a known issue with no official remedy.

If you type really quickly and listen closely, you can hear a faint whistle/whoosh/fart, but if it bugs you, you're likely one of those people who would be bothered by someone scratching an itch, coughing, or making whatever other small benign noise.  That's a design issue with Topre though.  If you have a dome that needs to be compressed, of course you're going to create some noise when you press the dome since the air in it needs to go somewhere.  Unless they had some massive holes in the PCB, bigger channels in the domes, or something else, where the air can quickly move with minimal pressure, you're going to be making noise.  It's a silly thing to complain about unless it sounds like you're walking on whoopie cushions. 

That's my Topre rant.  It's like getting mad at a buckling spring keyboard for pinging or an Alps keyboard for wobbling.  It's one of the little quirks of the mechanism that you should get used to and come to appreciate as being its unique little quirk.

The thing I can't get past though is the friction in the depression of the switches.  After the FC660C, I was expecting a much smoother actuation.

Second, the actuation isn't as smooth as the FC660C.   I don't know if it just needs some lube or if the HHKB is different in some important way, but there is noticeable friction when typing with it.  Not an unpleasant friction, per say, but definitely present.
I also noticed this when I got my Type-S. The regular HHKB doesn't do that. Not really sure why, as I thought that the Type-S only added the silencing pads.

Good to know that I'm not alone in noticing that.  It would be weird if it was just this keyboard.


Oh, and I just noticed, the Z and X caps got swapped on the keyboard. I wonder if any others are in the wrong place....maybe some of the blank ones...
« Last Edit: Thu, 04 September 2014, 21:35:25 by nubbinator »

Offline osi

  • Posts: 964
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #54 on: Thu, 04 September 2014, 21:42:42 »
The landing pads are restricting the air path in the housings just enough to create some noise as the air is pushed through the housings in the type-s

My long shot guess

Offline Belfong

  • Posts: 5217
  • Location: Malaysia
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #55 on: Fri, 05 September 2014, 01:42:58 »
I could hear the whoosing noise when I use the MX Black. It's like pumping a bicycle pump and it's very obvious to me, the sound I mean. I guess that is how linear switch is. But on the normal HHKB or the RealForce 55g, I didn't hear this. I agree though that it is not irritating at all in the MX Black. I enjoy the thocking sound of the HHKB a lot more!
 

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #56 on: Fri, 05 September 2014, 21:37:45 »
The HHKB is slowly growing on me.  It still feels a little too light and the layout is weird as hell, but I find myself tolerating it when I'm using it normally and actually liking it when I've got a beer or two in me. I'm going to sound like an alcoholic (even though I usually only have a beer or two on Friday and Saturday), but I just find it a pleasant board to use after a beer or two.  It's not winning me over sober as a Mormon, but put a little Trappist monk in me, and I find myself enjoying it. 

If it weren't for the ridiculously high price coupled with the fact that my money right now is going to student loans, a car payment, and a new laptop, I might be inclined to pick up a HHKB and do a silence mod and some lubing myself.  I don't think I could ever become a Toprite preaching the supremacy of Topre, but I could definitely see myself appreciating it....even if it is just a nicer, glorified rubber dome.  And before you take that as me bashing Topre, I have used some rubber domes in the past that were pleasant to use.  It's just unfortunate that most rubber domes (and scissor switches for that matter) are utter ****.

So I'm slowly having my mind changed about Topre.  I definitely get it now.  Whether or not I get the fanaticism is something else, but I definitely get why people like Topre.  But damn, that price.  It's just too damn high for me for a nice HHKB, especially when I can get a Model M and F AT for under $100 for the pair, an Alps board in an aluminum case for the same price as an HHKB, or get to have some ridiculous and huge levels of customizability with the LEGO of the mech world, MX, for the same price.
« Last Edit: Fri, 05 September 2014, 21:40:17 by nubbinator »

Offline demik

  • Pronounced "demique"
  • Posts: 11159
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #57 on: Fri, 05 September 2014, 21:49:42 »
light as in, the case feel or the switches?
No, he’s not around. How that sound to ya? Jot it down.

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #58 on: Sat, 06 September 2014, 02:54:26 »
light as in, the case feel or the switches?

The switches.  The case is light, but not unpleasantly so since it does seem to stay in place without any real issue and it doesn't bounce around with a lot of flex like a Chicony case.  I'm just used to heavier switches due to my fat sausage fingers (they aren't really, but I like to be self-denigrating sometimes). 

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #59 on: Sun, 07 September 2014, 14:46:54 »
The more I use the HHKB, the more I find myself not minding Topre.  It is a far cry from the god switch people make it out to be and it is a quirky layout that takes a ton of getting used to (I still can't find my delete key, something I use a lot), but I definitely see why people like it.  The domes are fairly crisp, though I still feel a little rubberiness in them, and they provide a light throw with a heavy tactile bump you just don't see in any other switch.  Topre has grown on me from the almost hate I was starting to feel for it on the FC660C.

Offline rowdy

  • HHKB Hapster
  • * Erudite Elder
  • Posts: 21175
  • Location: melbourne.vic.au
  • Missed another sale.
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #60 on: Sun, 07 September 2014, 15:16:14 »
The more I use the HHKB, the more I find myself not minding Topre.  It is a far cry from the god switch people make it out to be and it is a quirky layout that takes a ton of getting used to (I still can't find my delete key, something I use a lot), but I definitely see why people like it.  The domes are fairly crisp, though I still feel a little rubberiness in them, and they provide a light throw with a heavy tactile bump you just don't see in any other switch.  Topre has grown on me from the almost hate I was starting to feel for it on the FC660C.

I wonder if you would feel the same way if you were to switch back to the FC660C.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #61 on: Sun, 07 September 2014, 15:31:06 »
I give the FC660C a tap every now and then and I just don't like it.

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #62 on: Sun, 07 September 2014, 16:02:55 »
Interesting. My first Topre was a FC660C, but I put it aside because I didn't like the keycaps, and the layout wasn't quite what I was looking for.

Many keyboards later, I finally got a HHKB Pro 2; I liked this much better than the FC660C, primarily because of the form factor and great layout.

Recently, I decided to try a RF 87u 55g. I really like it, but for the first time in my life, I developed wrist pain after using this board. Although the problem might be due to the heavier 55g switch, I attribute it to the hard landing with the plate-mounted Topre switches. The HHKB Pro 2 has case-mounted switches, providing a more yielding landing when bottoming out.

Having started with IBM buckling spring switches, which I still use in my keyboard rotations, I tend to bottom out with every keystroke on any keyboard that I use.

Now that I am paying more attention to proper typing posture (keeping my wrists elevated and straight while typing), the pain has subsided, and I am enjoying the RF 87u more and more. Although I prefer the 60% form factor and layout of the HHKB, the RF feels like a higher-quality product.

Within the last few days, I have tried the CM Novatouch with 45g Topre switches equipped with Cherry mx stems. It is somewhat too light for me, and I prefer the typing experience of the RF 87u 55g or the HHKB Pro 2, even though the latter board also has 45g Topre switches. Here again, the RF sounds and feels like a higher-quality product to me.

I understand what you are saying about the abrupt landing with plate-mounted Topre switches, such as found in the FC660C and the RF 87u. However, I didn't notice this effect with the CM Novatouch. The greatest contrast is found with the HHKB Pro 2; I think that its case-mounted switches are much more yielding, providing a cushioning effect when bottoming out.

Offline slickmamba

  • Posts: 651
  • Location: SF
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #63 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 14:46:44 »
Any updates?
Hi :)

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #64 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 15:14:34 »
Any updates?

One is coming tonight.  It is growing on me though.

Offline slickmamba

  • Posts: 651
  • Location: SF
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #65 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 15:48:51 »
 ;D
Hi :)

Offline Belfong

  • Posts: 5217
  • Location: Malaysia
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #66 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 19:45:17 »

Any updates?

One is coming tonight.  It is growing on me though.
I hope it's not from peer pressure, he he.
 

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 20:01:56 »

Any updates?

One is coming tonight.  It is growing on me though.
I hope it's not from peer pressure, he he.

It isn't.  As others have said, it really is a learning to type on it thing.  Topre is great if you can start to type without hitting the bottom or hitting it as hard. It's something I still have an issue with since I always have typed that way, but I can see why people like it.  I still can't say it's my favorite since the HHKB definitely has more friction in the slide than my lubed MX switches and some sexy vintage Alps switches, but it is still a nice feel.

I guess the best way to put it is that I'm finally starting to get Topre.  It still is not the end all be all that some make it out to be, but I do get it and I definitely and coming around to liking it.   I'm not at loving it (yet?), but I have found that I like and enjoy it now whereas it was unpleasant to me before.

More and more the HHKB is looking to be a board that I'd like to have, if just for travel or just to use for a month or two here and there since I tend to swap between boards.  I just cannot get past the price tag.  At $260+tax+shipping, I'm looking at a Korean board with an Aluminum case.  I had a hard time buying my Kingsaver, and that was with Alps, switches I love to play around with.

So far, my stance on Topre is this:  if you have the money to spend and can afford a couple of expensive boards, make the HHKB or a Realforce one of them.  It provides a different and interesting experience than you can get with Alps and MX.  You just can't find the force curve and the tactility anywhere else.  On the other hand, if you've got $300 to drop, and then you're tapped out for a while, I really have to say go elsewhere.  That money gives you an MX board, an Alps board, and a Buckling Spring board and gives you money left over for caps, springs, lube, custom cables, and so many more means of customization.

Offline Sent

  • Simplistic Serenity
  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Posts: 2141
  • Location: :thinking:
  • ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #68 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 20:13:45 »
More and more the HHKB is looking to be a board that I'd like to have, if just for travel or just to use for a month or two here and there since I tend to swap between boards.  I just cannot get past the price tag.  At $260+tax+shipping, I'm looking at a Korean board with an Aluminum case.  I had a hard time buying my Kingsaver, and that was with Alps, switches I love to play around with.

So far, my stance on Topre is this:  if you have the money to spend and can afford a couple of expensive boards, make the HHKB or a Realforce one of them.  It provides a different and interesting experience than you can get with Alps and MX.  You just can't find the force curve and the tactility anywhere else.  On the other hand, if you've got $300 to drop, and then you're tapped out for a while, I really have to say go elsewhere.  That money gives you an MX board, an Alps board, and a Buckling Spring board and gives you money left over for caps, springs, lube, custom cables, and so many more means of customization.

You just explained my own thoughts on this to me because I couldn't put it into words.  :rolleyes:  I've been going back and forth on getting an HHKB forever but I just can't justify the cost.  The lack of caps is also a bit of a turn off.  At the moment, I guess I'd just rather get another Korean board than an HHKB.

Offline Elrick

  • Hype Master
  • Posts: 4895
  • Location: CrapTown, Convict Settlement
  • Keyboard Orgasmist
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #69 on: Fri, 12 September 2014, 06:41:22 »
I've been going back and forth on getting an HHKB forever but I just can't justify the cost.  The lack of caps is also a bit of a turn off.  At the moment, I guess I'd just rather get another Korean board than an HHKB.

Smart choice, a Korean will always satisfy your deepest cravings no matter what it is  ;) .

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #70 on: Fri, 12 September 2014, 23:12:35 »
I think I've reached the point where I want a HHKB.  I wouldn't say I've been converted, but I also have to say that I am no longer the skeptic I was.  Something about the FC660C was turning me off to Topre while the HHKB makes it nice.

I guess the closest comparison would be unlubed Ergo Clears with 45g springs vs lubed Ergo Clears in the 55-67g range. The prior on just feels gross, bottoms out hard, doesn't have a pleasant feel return, and so on.  The lubed heavier spring Ergo Clears, however, feel great and provide a proper experience of what Ergo Clears can be. 

I still think a stiffer, longer throw switch is ideal for me, but the HHKB has definitely grown on me.  It's just that damn price tag.  I may have to see what I can sell off to justify the price.  $290, even $190 with a generous offer Epzy made to me, is still just too much right now. I'd have to get rid of some other stuff I don't use to justify it.  I may have to say goodbye to my Qazpad and my CCnG set.

Offline Belfong

  • Posts: 5217
  • Location: Malaysia
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #71 on: Fri, 12 September 2014, 23:21:07 »
I'm glad you like it. I started my Topre journey on the HHKB and I'm glad that was my starting point. Have not tried a FC660C until today, likely won't after reading your impression. Make more Dollies :) :)
 

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
  • Location: Denver, CO
    • Rossipedia
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #72 on: Sun, 14 September 2014, 13:59:52 »
Interesting... I never thought that about it being the plate that caused the wrist pain, which is something that I've been developing whenever I use my 87U 55g or FC660C and keeps me coming back to Clears.

Personally I think that the HHKB is the best feeling and sounding keyboard ever made. But unfortunately the layout is a complete deal breaker. Swapping backslash and backspace is something my hands just can't do without screaming in agony.

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #73 on: Sun, 14 September 2014, 14:06:03 »
Interesting... I never thought that about it being the plate that caused the wrist pain, which is something that I've been developing whenever I use my 87U 55g or FC660C and keeps me coming back to Clears.

Personally I think that the HHKB is the best feeling and sounding keyboard ever made. But unfortunately the layout is a complete deal breaker. Swapping backslash and backspace is something my hands just can't do without screaming in agony.

I actually like the backspace location.  It's the tiny Alt with massive Winkey and the Ctrl location that gets to me.  I'm not sure how the one I'm using is set up, but the lack of a Delete key is suboptimal for me since I tend to shift+delete stuff instead of sending it to the trash can.

Offline slickmamba

  • Posts: 651
  • Location: SF
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #74 on: Sun, 14 September 2014, 14:18:04 »
WOOO! Hope my board had something to do with your choice :)  Can't wait to welcome you to the club.
Hi :)

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #75 on: Sun, 14 September 2014, 14:25:31 »
After trying many different form factors, layouts, and switch types, I kept getting recommendations to try the HHKB Pro 2, but I kept putting it off, thinking I surely could not adapt to the seemingly alien layout and lack of dedicated arrow keys. When I finally got around to trying the HHKB, I was amazed at my instant liking for it and how quickly I adapted to the layout and having the arrow keys in the Fn layer. Now I find that the HHKB layout is the best possible one for me, and I remap all my other keyboards to the HHKB layout to the extent that I can.

I like the downstsroke "thock" of the HHKB, but I don't like the return stroke "clack". I also think I would prefer a heavier-weight switch. Therefore, I am considering getting a Type-S HHKB and swapping out the 45g domes for 55g domes from a RF board.

Typing on a RF 87u 55g now, I prefer the heavier switch and more solid sound of the plate-mounted Topres (as opposed to case-mounted switches in the HHKB). I can get the heavier switch in my HHKB with a dome swap, but the plate-mounted switches will have to wait until PFU decides to make a HHKB Pro 3 with plate-mounted switches (I doubt that this will ever occur, but who knows?).

One last thing on modding Topre-switch boards. If I start the dome transplant with a Type-S, these are only available in white, and I prefer a black case, but with white alphas and black mods. Apparently, switching HHKB cases requires popping the switches out of one case and popping them into the other. It seems that this could incur some risk of damaging the switches and/or the case. Any pointers on doing this non-destructively would be most welcome!


Offline ComradeSniper

  • HHKB Pro
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1086
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #76 on: Sun, 14 September 2014, 14:47:55 »
Interesting... I never thought that about it being the plate that caused the wrist pain, which is something that I've been developing whenever I use my 87U 55g or FC660C and keeps me coming back to Clears.

Personally I think that the HHKB is the best feeling and sounding keyboard ever made. But unfortunately the layout is a complete deal breaker. Swapping backslash and backspace is something my hands just can't do without screaming in agony.

I actually like the backspace location.  It's the tiny Alt with massive Winkey and the Ctrl location that gets to me.  I'm not sure how the one I'm using is set up, but the lack of a Delete key is suboptimal for me since I tend to shift+delete stuff instead of sending it to the trash can.

There's a dip switch that lets you swap alt & win key. It'd drive me crazy if I had to use the standard alt placement.

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #77 on: Fri, 19 September 2014, 23:14:18 »
It happened, I'm a convert.  Not to Topre on the whole since there are many that I just don't like the feel of either because they have a horrible bottom out feeling, you can actuate them by sneezing on them, or whatever else.  I have found myself truly enjoying the HHKB.  I still love Alps and MX, but Topre now has carved out a niche in my heart.  Though it has a funky as hell layout, something about it just feels right.  Yeah, you can feel a slight rubber mush (if you deny it, you have some rose colored glasses on) and it takes some getting used to the feel, but once you do, it's just a fun keyboard.  It's like getting back on a trampoline when you're in your late twenties and haven't been on one in years.  At first you find it obnoxious and not fun, then you get used to it and you start having a blast.   I don't see it ever becoming my favorite, but I can now say that it is fun.

And, heresy bomb incoming, yes, it's still just a fancy rubber dome to me, but a damn good one.  Do I think it's worth the premium?  Not really since I have used older 80s boards that felt good and were rubber domes, but it is definitely worth it if you have the money.  Hence why I have a WTB thread going.

Offline HoffmanMyster

  • HOFF, smol MAN OF MYSTERY
  • * Senior Moderator
  • Posts: 11462
  • Location: WI
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #78 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 01:27:24 »

I give the FC660C a tap every now and then and I just don't like it.

I'm glad you're still showing it at least a little but of love.  :)

the lack of a Delete key is suboptimal for me since I tend to shift+delete stuff instead of sending it to the trash can.

This right here is my only gripe with the HHKB layout.

It happened, I'm a convert.

Welcome to enlightenment!! Hopefully you can love all the switches equally and no longer despise the cupped rubber.   :D

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #79 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 09:29:38 »
If you haven't seen it, I've started a Topre poll -- you might want to visit it and register your vote for your favorite Topre-switch keyboard:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62923.msg1474738#msg1474738

My own top vote goes to the RF 87u 55g for its (to me) supreme sound and feel, but I also love the HHKB Pro 2 for its form factor and superb layout.

Offline esoomenona

  • Gnillort?
  • Posts: 5323
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #80 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 09:35:35 »
Delete is on Fn+`. I use Shift+Delete often, and it's not hard to hold Shift and Fn down when pressing the button.

Offline osi

  • Posts: 964
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #81 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 09:42:59 »
Disabling the recycle bin allows the delete key to function as shift+delete in winderz

Offline esoomenona

  • Gnillort?
  • Posts: 5323
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #82 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 09:45:54 »
Disabling the recycle bin allows the delete key to function as shift+delete in winderz

I think that's a little too far. I use Delete a lot on it's own, so it would open up the opportunity of accidentally deleting items...

Offline HoffmanMyster

  • HOFF, smol MAN OF MYSTERY
  • * Senior Moderator
  • Posts: 11462
  • Location: WI
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #83 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 11:10:40 »
Delete is on Fn+`. I use Shift+Delete often, and it's not hard to hold Shift and Fn down when pressing the button.

I've always found this to be a really awkward position, but maybe that's just me.  I am strongly considering teensy modding my HHKB and making the upper right key be delete on the regular layer.

Offline Grim Fandango

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1036
  • Location: The Moon
  • "The living still give me the creeps."
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #84 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 11:29:27 »
It is all subjective of course. I think Topre feel nice. Personally I prefer them to the Cherry MX switches. And even if I would not, I would likely still use them since the Cherry MX are entirely too noisy for home or office use (for me).
Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #85 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 11:52:12 »
Delete is on Fn+`. I use Shift+Delete often, and it's not hard to hold Shift and Fn down when pressing the button.

It must be the way the one I'm using is set up then since that Fn combo doesn't work for me.

It is all subjective of course. I think Topre feel nice. Personally I prefer them to the Cherry MX switches. And even if I would not, I would likely still use them since the Cherry MX are entirely too noisy for home or office use (for me).

I don't know if I prefer one switch over another at this point.  There are days I love the feel of my Model F, days I love my Orange Alps or other Alps switches, and days I love my Ergo Clears and Ghost Blacks.

Offline esoomenona

  • Gnillort?
  • Posts: 5323
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #86 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 11:55:41 »
Is dipswitch 3 up or down on the board?

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #87 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 12:09:28 »
Is dipswitch 3 up or down on the board?

I'll check later.  I don't want to mess up slickmamba's set up though.

Offline dustinhxc

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 6739
  • Location: MN
  • IV
    • Gray Designs
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #88 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 12:49:36 »
It happened, I'm a convert.  Not to Topre on the whole since there are many that I just don't like the feel of either because they have a horrible bottom out feeling, you can actuate them by sneezing on them, or whatever else.  I have found myself truly enjoying the HHKB.  I still love Alps and MX, but Topre now has carved out a niche in my heart.  Though it has a funky as hell layout, something about it just feels right.  Yeah, you can feel a slight rubber mush (if you deny it, you have some rose colored glasses on) and it takes some getting used to the feel, but once you do, it's just a fun keyboard.  It's like getting back on a trampoline when you're in your late twenties and haven't been on one in years.  At first you find it obnoxious and not fun, then you get used to it and you start having a blast.   I don't see it ever becoming my favorite, but I can now say that it is fun.

And, heresy bomb incoming, yes, it's still just a fancy rubber dome to me, but a damn good one.  Do I think it's worth the premium?  Not really since I have used older 80s boards that felt good and were rubber domes, but it is definitely worth it if you have the money.  Hence why I have a WTB thread going.

Exactly man, I thought I had to choose before. Topre or MX. I realized that I can enjoy all switches. Ive got a nice MX collection going. Got me some Buckling Spring. Now a couple Topre once again. I just need to get an ALPs some day.  :cool:

On my JP, I did dip 2 I believe. It swaps control to caps. Left fn to control. It's perfect.
« Last Edit: Sat, 20 September 2014, 13:53:29 by dustinhxc »

Offline slickmamba

  • Posts: 651
  • Location: SF
Re: nubbinator's continuing thoughts on Topre
« Reply #89 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 13:42:23 »
Is dipswitch 3 up or down on the board?

I'll check later.  I don't want to mess up slickmamba's set up though.

oh do what you want, I can always move it back. I have it setup for a mac right now
Hi :)