Author Topic: Model M bad keypresses  (Read 2951 times)

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Offline Moschops

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Model M bad keypresses
« on: Wed, 27 August 2014, 14:23:36 »
I have a m,,odel M< here.

As y]oui can see, pressing som,e key]]s seems to trigger other keys as well.

Not always, but certainly enough to notice, and as you can see I'm typing now without any other noticeable wonky keypresses.

The most glaring is that sometimes pressing "Y" also causes "]". Sometimes more than once. Some other keys offend too.

I'm not sure what might cause this. Anyone had something similar?

Edit:

The particular problem combinations keys (where pressuing one often also presses the other) are:

]y]
m,
kj
6=

and often the reverse:

]
m, (I actuially] pressed com,m,a first there)
=

and h does some ke]y]press which jkium,ps to the url edit box on m,y] browser.

Don't think it's the connection, but I can't see the link twixt the bad keypairs.
« Last Edit: Wed, 27 August 2014, 15:24:40 by Moschops »
Habitually, a '93 Model M that I've lovingly coaxed back to life with help and parts provided by the lovely people here.

When the desk is heaving with junk, I have to switch down to one of those tiny little Cherry keyboards. I use it until having no numpad is inconvenient enough to make me tidy up :)

Offline Moschops

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 27 August 2014, 16:02:10 »
F6. It's F sodding 6. Of all things, the "H" key sometimes triggers the "F6" as well. But not right now. The problems come and go, which makes it especially frustrating and hard to track down :)

I note that the Y, H and 6 are in a line, and the M is almost in line with those. I don't suppose that, coupled with the symptoms,  means anything to anyone with particular knowledge of the interior wiring of one of these?
« Last Edit: Wed, 27 August 2014, 16:10:45 by Moschops »
Habitually, a '93 Model M that I've lovingly coaxed back to life with help and parts provided by the lovely people here.

When the desk is heaving with junk, I have to switch down to one of those tiny little Cherry keyboards. I use it until having no numpad is inconvenient enough to make me tidy up :)

Offline rowdy

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 27 August 2014, 17:28:06 »
There are some Model M geniuses around here - have patience, hopefully they will pop by soon.

During the meanwhile, has the keyboard been exposed to moisture?  Immersed in liquid?  Had a particular adventurous life?

Is there any foreign material that might have snuck in between the various bits?

Has this keyboard been bolt-modded?
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

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Offline 1391406

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 27 August 2014, 18:36:06 »
Do you have the Model M plugged into a USB hub or directly into a USB port on your computer? My Model F exhibited similar behavior, and it was partially due to using a USB hub, but also because I had another keyboard plugged in at the same time.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 27 August 2014, 18:50:00 »
I just so happen to have a model M membrane in front of me and it explains the behavior I think.

Here is a list of keys that are on column 9 (it snakes around a lot)
=
]
rightshift
,
k
i
8
f6

see a pattern? You are having a problem with that column it seems. Open the case and see if it's shorting to anything. Reseat the cable, etc.

column 8 has the following:
6
7
y
u
h
j
n
m

this means your column 8 and 9 are bridged.
« Last Edit: Wed, 27 August 2014, 19:30:34 by dorkvader »

Offline E TwentyNine

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 27 August 2014, 18:58:06 »
The particular problem combinations keys (where pressuing one often also presses the other) are:

]y]
m,
kj
6=

...

Don't think it's the connection, but I can't see the link twixt the bad keypairs.

Here's a matrix of the M's keys:
Code: [Select]
Loaded 204 keys and 8 modifiers from &quot;firmware/common/usbkeycodes.h&quot;.
IBM Model M 1391401: 103 unique keycodes on 103 keys in a 16x8 matrix.
Keyboard matrix, 8 columns x 16 rows:
   |           1 |           2 |           3 |           4 |           5 |           6 |           7 |           8
---+-------------+-------------+-------------+-------------+-------------+-------------+-------------+-------------
 1 |             |             | MOD_LCTRL   |             |             |             | MOD_RCTRL   |             
 2 |             | MOD_LSHIFT  |             |             |             |             | MOD_RSHIFT  |             
 3 | KEY_esc     | KEY_tab     | KEY_grave   | KEY_1       | KEY_Q       | KEY_A       | KEY_Z       |             
 4 | KEY_Euro    | KEY_cpslck  | KEY_F1      | KEY_2       | KEY_W       | KEY_S       | KEY_X       |             
 5 | KEY_F4      | KEY_F3      | KEY_F2      | KEY_3       | KEY_E       | KEY_D       | KEY_C       |             
 6 | KEY_G       | KEY_T       | KEY_5       | KEY_4       | KEY_R       | KEY_F       | KEY_V       | KEY_B       
 7 | KEY_F5      | KEY_bckspc  | KEY_F9      | KEY_F10     |             | KEY_bckslsh | KEY_enter   | KEY_spc     
 8 | KEY_H       | KEY_Y       | KEY_6       | KEY_7       | KEY_U       | KEY_J       | KEY_M       | KEY_N       
 9 | MOD_LALT    |             |             | KEY_PrtScr  | KEY_scrlck  |             |             | MOD_RALT   
10 | KEY_uarr    |             | KEY_home    | KEY_end     | KEY_KPplus  | KEY_KPenter | KEY_break   | KEY_larr   
11 | KEY_KPdot   | KEY_KP6     | KEY_pgup    | KEY_pgdn    | KEY_KP9     | KEY_KP3     | KEY_KPast   | KEY_KPminus
12 | KEY_KP0     | KEY_KP5     | KEY_ins     | KEY_F12     | KEY_KP8     | KEY_KP2     | KEY_KPslash | KEY_rarr   
13 |             | KEY_KP4     | KEY_del     | KEY_F11     | KEY_KP7     | KEY_KP1     | KEY_numlock | KEY_darr   
14 | KEY_ping    | KEY_lbr     | KEY_minus   | KEY_0       | KEY_P       | KEY_smcol   | KEY_hash    | KEY_slash   
15 |             | KEY_F7      | KEY_F8      | KEY_9       | KEY_O       | KEY_L       | KEY_dot     |             
16 | KEY_F6      | KEY_rbr     | KEY_equal   | KEY_8       | KEY_I       | KEY_K       | KEY_comma   |   

Y and ] in same column

M and , in same column

J and K in same column

6 and = in same column

Y M J 6 are all in the same row

k = , ] are all in same row

The traces between those rows are getting bridged somehow, so when you hit one you get the other.

I'd bet you have other pairs of keys in those rows that activate together.

I'd pull the board apart, pull the connector out of the controller, inspect it, clean it (gently), and try it again.

And hope that the problem doesn't require a bolt mod.
Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

Offline dorkvader

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 27 August 2014, 19:32:37 »
interestingly enough the matrix I just figured out for my model M (1391401, 1989, beige label) is different than the above.

From my matrix and his results, column 8 and 9 are bridged. I agree that cleaning it is the best thing to try first.

Offline E TwentyNine

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 27 August 2014, 19:45:59 »
I swiped it from here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=21096.0

It looked correct as it showed the pattern of same column with row pairs, but didn't verify it.

There's another table floating around, think I saw it on DT where someone put together a color coded trace of the membranes with an accompanying table.
Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

Offline rowdy

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 28 August 2014, 05:28:34 »
Told you there were some Model M geniuses here :p
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

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Offline Moschops

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 28 August 2014, 12:54:02 »
Fantastic; this is exactly the kind of knowledge one hopes for on the internet. It's what I used to imagine it would be great at years ago when reading Gibson or Stephenson's early works. Pitched at the perfect level, too; the breakdown of how the columns are arranged goes a very long way to explaining it. Pictures of kittens are all well and good, but sometimes I really do need actual information :)

This particular keyboard sat (on its side) for over a year while I got round to replacing a stretched and bent spring on the space key. Thence it went back into service, and began exhibiting the symptoms described above a few days into use. To my knowledge, the keyboard has undergone no modification since assembly, and has never been disassembled.

I borrowed a can of compressed air (and, I see on the side, butane, isopropane and propane) from a chap at work who uses it to clean his record collection and sprayed it liberally into a selection of vents and holes until it looked like there was a smoke grenade going off inside it. Thus far, looks good. Hope I won't have to take it apart, but now that I've got the information in this thread, I'll be a lot more confident if I do have to.
Habitually, a '93 Model M that I've lovingly coaxed back to life with help and parts provided by the lovely people here.

When the desk is heaving with junk, I have to switch down to one of those tiny little Cherry keyboards. I use it until having no numpad is inconvenient enough to make me tidy up :)

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 28 August 2014, 13:11:53 »
butane, isopropane and propane) from a chap at work who uses it to clean his record collection

Whoa! I would not want those on my records!

I am generally satisfied to use brush-like devices before each play, and a soap-and-water sponge bath in the kitchen sink for something that is actually dirty.
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Offline Moschops

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 28 August 2014, 14:56:14 »
Hm,mm,....

It com,es and goes. The "m" and "," com,bination seem,s particiularly] bad. let's have a quiick check of the others:

y
ui
h
j
k
n
,m
,
6=
7
=

Yeah, on and off.

I'll get these four bolts undone and take a look inside. Searching here for "m,odel m" doesn't go well. Any]one got a link to som,e pictuires so I know wh(F6=)at I'm going to be looking at w'en I open it?
Habitually, a '93 Model M that I've lovingly coaxed back to life with help and parts provided by the lovely people here.

When the desk is heaving with junk, I have to switch down to one of those tiny little Cherry keyboards. I use it until having no numpad is inconvenient enough to make me tidy up :)

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 28 August 2014, 15:00:15 »
Dorkvader has the beginnings of a great guide

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62226.0
State Freedom Caucus News 2024
Missouri state Senator Nick Schroer sponsors a bill that would allow senators to duel one another — in the Senate chambers! – legally.

Offline Moschops

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 28 August 2014, 15:09:28 »
Eep. I'm not keen on breaking rivets to get to the membrane. Maybe once I take the casing off, I'll be able to have a look in there and see if there's anything I can do without anything so drastic. That it's intermittent gives me hope it's something fixable.
« Last Edit: Thu, 28 August 2014, 15:12:30 by Moschops »
Habitually, a '93 Model M that I've lovingly coaxed back to life with help and parts provided by the lovely people here.

When the desk is heaving with junk, I have to switch down to one of those tiny little Cherry keyboards. I use it until having no numpad is inconvenient enough to make me tidy up :)

Offline rowdy

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 28 August 2014, 17:09:01 »
If you're lucky it will be something simple and obvious, like someone's metal nail file wedged inside the keyboard somehow.

But if not, again please ask - as you have seen, there are some with extensive knowledge of Model M (and other vintage, classic) keyboard knowledge here.

We are lucky to have such a wide knowledge base :)
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline E TwentyNine

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 28 August 2014, 18:12:27 »
Eep. I'm not keen on breaking rivets to get to the membrane. Maybe once I take the casing off, I'll be able to have a look in there and see if there's anything I can do without anything so drastic. That it's intermittent gives me hope it's something fixable.

You don't need to do that at first.  If you look at the incredibly detailed mod writeup, the first picture shows two ribbon cables coming off the top of the assembly.  Those go into a (not pictured) controller board, similar to this:



Pull the ribbon cables out of the controller slots, check/clean them gently (cloth and plain water should be fine unless it's truly nasty), make sure they're dry, and put them back in.  Test the keyboard without reassembling the casing.
Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

Offline Moschops

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 29 August 2014, 04:11:18 »
Aha. Will do. I've got an old biro and a lighter on standby to get at the four bolts (they really are in very narrow recesses), but I'm holding off for a few days while the 5.5 mm hex "screwdriver" I ordered turns up. The picture of it on the site I bought it from made it look narrow enough to get at the bolts. In the meantime, I'll switch over to a Corsair keyboard I've got here somewhere.
Habitually, a '93 Model M that I've lovingly coaxed back to life with help and parts provided by the lovely people here.

When the desk is heaving with junk, I have to switch down to one of those tiny little Cherry keyboards. I use it until having no numpad is inconvenient enough to make me tidy up :)

Offline rowdy

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 29 August 2014, 05:41:57 »
So very much easier with the right tool!
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 29 August 2014, 07:13:17 »
So very much easier with the right tool!

Always.

And I really like nut drivers better than socket wrenches, they are "one-trick ponies" but much quicker.
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 29 August 2014, 13:12:12 »
So very much easier with the right tool!

Always.

And I really like nut drivers better than socket wrenches, they are "one-trick ponies" but much quicker.

just a general word, since you brought up the topic.

I've always believed in publicly thanking the people who help me. And I want to say again to Wcass, a big THANK YOU for helping me with that one single 5.5mm nut driver! It has made a huge difference to what I am able to do!
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline fohat.digs

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Offline Moschops

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 13 September 2014, 11:24:29 »
It turned up today, £1.25 ($2 at current exchange rate) including postage from Hong Kong to UK - phenomenal price!

5.5 mm is very nearly a perfect match.  I'm typing on the keyboard right now, having taken off the outer case (which comes off so easily; it's almost like this was designed with maintenance in mind :p )  and given the innards a hosing of air. Didn't have to take anything else out, and thus far it's looking good. I had to type something on some godawful Isku keyboard earlier; it's really hard to concentrate on what I'm doing when the keyboard feels so bad I keep noticing it.

While the top is off I might clean it a bit more.
Habitually, a '93 Model M that I've lovingly coaxed back to life with help and parts provided by the lovely people here.

When the desk is heaving with junk, I have to switch down to one of those tiny little Cherry keyboards. I use it until having no numpad is inconvenient enough to make me tidy up :)

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 13 September 2014, 15:48:51 »
It turned up today, £1.25 ($2 at current exchange rate) including postage from Hong Kong to UK - phenomenal price!

I would like to see that link. Everything I have seen has been twice that.

When you get into Model Fs, you will want a 9/32" (7.5 mm) also! Ha ha
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Offline Moschops

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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 14 September 2014, 08:12:13 »
I would like to see that link. Everything I have seen has been twice that.

It was on eBay. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Brand-New-Metal-Socket-Wrench-Screwdriver-Hex-Nut-Key-Hand-Tool-10-Sizes-/370980746343


The problems started up again after a while, so as advised I went to the next step and carefully eased out the ribbon cables. Gave the ribbons a careful wiping, and the sockets a blasting of air, before reassembling. It's been good for the last couple of hours so maybe it's fixed now. I've moved on to trying to fix a Roccat Isku, which is hideous to type on but the keys do have a blue glow and it's heaving with extra magic buttons. The volume control buttons worked without having to do anything on Ubuntu 14.04, which was a surprise :p
Habitually, a '93 Model M that I've lovingly coaxed back to life with help and parts provided by the lovely people here.

When the desk is heaving with junk, I have to switch down to one of those tiny little Cherry keyboards. I use it until having no numpad is inconvenient enough to make me tidy up :)

Offline Moschops

  • Thread Starter
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Re: Model M bad keypresses
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 17 September 2014, 14:32:57 »
New symptom; it still does it, but not often. I haven't worked out a pattern yet of when it does it.

However, I switch over to a key]board layout program so I can see what the transmitted keypresses are, and if I hammer away for ten seconds, everything goes back to working properly. I'm wondering about a bad component on the board somewhere.
Habitually, a '93 Model M that I've lovingly coaxed back to life with help and parts provided by the lovely people here.

When the desk is heaving with junk, I have to switch down to one of those tiny little Cherry keyboards. I use it until having no numpad is inconvenient enough to make me tidy up :)