Why are 75% not more common?

[Q-ship]

Basically it's because about 99.9% of the people on earth don't even know that mechanical keyboards exist, and are only aware of the singularly produced "full size" rubber dome boards that come with the computer.

Laptops all come with some form of "near" 75% board, but are often crowded due to space limitations.

Mechanical 75% boards are also crowded so that they can share the 60% case size (in most cases) for production reasons.

In a perfect world, a standardized layout & slighly wider width for a 75% to 80% board would soon become the norm, with "full size" boards morphing into a combo of TKL w/num pad.

What I don't understand is how the 60% boards became the norm for gaming as they have far to many keys for "Just" gaming, yet can't be used as a conventional keyboard .... Try typing a report, resume. or spreadsheet on a 60% board.

Though I personally don't care about appearance, I can understand how the 60% boards have become the predominant alternative size, given the ultra narrow market that they supply.

In any event, I can do anything with my old Race 75%, I have learned to touch type and program on it even though I would love to change things about it's layout if I could.

I'm just glad for the ones that do exist, but wish each model would come out for a reasonable period of time before they totaly disappear. --- It's frustrating to learn of a new/improved 75% +- board only to discover they are sold out, and never come back again "unless in a cheapend, more blinged out version".

[Smasher816]

Try typing a report, resume. or spreadsheet on a 60% board.

I don't see the issue....

Usually if people complain about 60%'s it is because they are missing the function keys for gaming - but that is not applicable to most office programs. When typing you don't really need the arrow keys either since it is usually fairly linear - just backspace for errors, and enter for paragraphs.

[Quardah]

Try typing a report, resume. or spreadsheet on a 60% board.

I don't see the issue....

Usually if people complain about 60%'s it is because they are missing the function keys for gaming - but that is not applicable to most office programs. When typing you don't really need the arrow keys either since it is usually fairly linear - just backspace for errors, and enter for paragraphs.

Yeah i totally get you dude, i've been doing school work / office work using my 60%. It's not crippling, everything you ever had is STILL under function layer and guess what, practice makes perfect, that means you adapt to the function layer being omnipresent on a 60% board.

It's awesome really.

ANSWER TO DAVKOL :

For Reference, 75% layout here

I can simply tell you that going TKL means you want to remove the numpad because you are not using it. That is all what it means and i personnaly would rather go for a TKL instead of a 75% for the sole reason that is presents the same functionalities but the TKL board doesn't look completly deformed. Removing the usual spacing in between keys or compressing them together may be functionnal but it simply looks weird and it's totally out of standard.

I understand the optimality or those 75% keyboards but you gotta agree they look a little silly...


Moar readings everyone here : http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/75-t8640.html

lol they started a thread pretty much the same time as us

[davkol]

Form over function, like I wrote.

[JPG]

Form over function, like I wrote.

I am not sure it's necessarily more functional when the keys are all grouped together. What I mean is that I can reach every key from a 60% layout without lifting my hands (or mostly) and even then, probably because I am bad at it, I have a harder time getting the memory for the number row (also probably because I don't use them much).


Then, when I have to reach for the arrow keys for example, I need to lift my hands. If I lift my hands, the small additional distance is probably irrelevant and could even be beneficial for accuracy. It probably just doesn't change much.


On the contrary, since using my model F with the Soarer converter, I started using an additional layer for the navigation. I use the caps lock key as a function key and I map arrows, home/end and page up/down on the keys where my right hand stands (ijkl cluster and around). I find that THIS is a real increase in efficiency when you get used to it. I while I consider myself not a very good typist and probably a slow learner of this kind of muscle memory, I had really no problem learning this layer since it's very intuitive to use and you don't have to lift your hand to reach it. I am not pretending that it's a better use of layers, but an example of how it can really improve the typing experience. I also like the fact that even if I have this layer, I also have the same keys readily available if I am in a position where my both hands are not on the keyboard since i need to use the mouse quite a lot recently (SQL SSIS tools are not the friend of the keyboard much).


So I think that 75% is more about size factor than efficiency factor compared to a TKL. I think it's a good design, but I don't think it's really an improvement over a TKL. It's more a matter of preference at that point. And since one is way more standard that the other due to historical reasons, it's sure that it's more appealing for companies to produce a standard layout unless they want to distinct themselves from the competition.


Just my 2 cents.

[davkol]

I use specifically my choc mini for games like SC or WC3 with Caps Lock and Control swapped, because F keys are much easier to reach. The closer Esc helps as well (see the vi Esc key syndrome).

The extra 7 cm to the mouse are actually one of the reasons, why I abandoned Kinesis Advantage (about the same width as tenkeyless).

I've looked for a 60% keyboard before, but the deal breaker has always been the lack of AltGraph (especially on Poker X) or inconsistent placement of the key (e.g., Pure). Remapping obviously messes with the muscle memory, but is it good for the given layout in the first place? I don't think so. That's why I think typematrix or TECK are a step in the right direction.

[Matt3o]

I like 65% (basically a poker + arrow cluster)

Most of my customs are like that.

The problem with 75% imho is that you have too many keys in a tiny-weeny space making touch typing a tad more difficult. Maybe it's just a matter of getting used to it though

[engicoder]

This is an odd 75% layout I have been pondering....its wide left and adds a row to the bottom. I need to mock it up some time to see how annoying the extra bottom row is.



It uses mostly standard size caps, with the exception of right shift, bit if you can ditch the tilde key, you could use all regular caps.
Edit: Control is not standard as well, but could use Caps Lock and a sticker ;-)

[katushkin]

KC84 is Chinese FWIW.

I love the layout. I really struggle without the nav keys, and when I was using my V60 at I52, it was so hard to do thing without the nav cluster, let alone the arrow keys. My KC is still one of my favourite boards and it makes me sad that people now discount them due to the Kalih switches. I think my next purchase is going to be a KC board with Kalihs, but I have a numpad coming in September so I will reserve my judgement for then.

As for the keycaps, this is my only bugbear. With backlighting, it makes it more or less impossible to find sets. If someone was to setup a GB for 75% sets I would love them forever...

[RED-404]

I have to move my hands less with a 60%, with a 75% I have to move away from the home row for some of the F keys and end up looking.

[genkidama]

Can't you emulate the F1 row with a FN layer?
My first mech was a full sized and I am loving it and after it I wanted the next mech to be a 75%. But after talking with BlueBär about it and considering I wanted a pretty portable and leightweight board to carry with me we talked about what keys I need and it is pretty possible to make it work on a 60%. I still got my arrow keys and some of the function keys like del, home, end, page up/down and the F1 row you can use an FN layer. Mostly I want to use the right side of the shift area for the arrow keys and an FN layer for the function keys and above the ISO enter there will be del and backspace. No special key size, everything standard so you can still swap keycaps easily.
So this is my reason for backing down of getting a 75%. Maybe some others think so as well, that they dont need a F1 row and/or arrow keys as they somehow use the mouse for it?!

[AKmalamute]

Yes, you can put everything on a function layer but at some point you want the keys on the keyboard, instead. A 75% gets you everything that isn't the ten-key with its own dedicated key, and the ten-key keys are on the standard keyboard anyway so its about reducing duplication without sacrifice.

For myself I never use the function keys except a few times a month, so sure, 60% boards are fine -- except I really want dedicated arrows so I find myself drawn to the FC660M layout -- A 75% with the function keys snipped, if you will.

Oh! for anybody that didn't see it, the last 39 of Race-in-Blues are for sale in MD right now. $115+shipping I  think. I have more keyboards than computers right now so I won't be getting one but they are tempting.

[Smasher816]

Some food for thought. Would people use a board with separate buttons for 'a'  and 'A' (think IBM 122 key but even more insane)? That way you have every key accessible without the pesky "Shift" layer.

I mean it's really not that different. What is the difference between pressing shift and 'a' for 'A', and pressing 'Fn' and '1' for 'F1'? Both involve holding a key and pressing another. Yet one people do countless times a day, while the other many shy away from because it is "too difficult/inefficient". Just something to think about...

[engicoder]

Can't you emulate the F1 row with a FN layer?

One problem with have FN mapped keys instead of physical keys are the keyboard shortcuts that are used in IDEs such as Eclipse or Visual Studio as well as many other development and modeling tools. It is common to have 3 key combinations. Suppose you want CTRL + SHIFT + F1...if F1 is mapped to a FN layer, suddenly you have FN + CTRL + SHIFT + F1. The 3 key combo becomes an very unwieldy 4 key combo. Furthermore, you have to be careful of how the effect the FN layer mapping has on the modifiers. These 3 key shortcuts especially common with the nav cluster keys such as HOME, END, PGUP, PGDN as well as the arrow keys.

[Sent]

I like 65% (basically a poker + arrow cluster)

Matt knows where it's at.  Poker + arrow cluster is bliss.  We need more 65% boards for sure.

[RED-404]

Or ditch the dedicated arrow cluster and just do this on a Poker II

I like having the Caps Lock as my Fn Key and wanted the WIN key to remain a WIN key. If you just do the dip switches it becomes Caps Lock.
But if you use the PN layer then you can program it. Here is the process;

Set Dip Switches all Off.
Press Fn-Ctrl            :enter programming mode
Press Caps Lock       :This is the key you will be programming
Press WIN Key         :This is what we want the previous key to do
Press Pn
Press Fn-Ctrl            :Exit programming mode
Turn On dip switches 1 & 3
Press Fn + Shift        :Lock Pn Mode

You should now have Fn on Caps Lock key and Win on the original Win key location.

[genkidama]

Some food for thought. Would people use a board with separate buttons for 'a'  and 'A' (think IBM 122 key but even more insane)? That way you have every key accessible without the pesky "Shift" layer.

I mean it's really not that different. What is the difference between pressing shift and 'a' for 'A', and pressing 'Fn' and '1' for 'F1'? Both involve holding a key and pressing another. Yet one people do countless times a day, while the other many shy away from because it is "too difficult/inefficient". Just something to think about...

I also see it that way, actually it is very similar to writing big letters. As I'm from Germany I need to use this much more than writing in English ^^ so I'm kinda used to especially because many special characters like ' " also need the Shift combination to get to them unlike a US layout I guess.

Can't you emulate the F1 row with a FN layer?

One problem with have FN mapped keys instead of physical keys are the keyboard shortcuts that are used in IDEs such as Eclipse or Visual Studio as well as many other development and modeling tools. It is common to have 3 key combinations. Suppose you want CTRL + SHIFT + F1...if F1 is mapped to a FN layer, suddenly you have FN + CTRL + SHIFT + F1. The 3 key combo becomes an very unwieldy 4 key combo. Furthermore, you have to be careful of how the effect the FN layer mapping has on the modifiers. These 3 key shortcuts especially common with the nav cluster keys such as HOME, END, PGUP, PGDN as well as the arrow keys.

If the FN key is on the right, let's say underneath the Enter and right to the right shift than it isn't such a hassle to use the 4 key combo as the left hand still can easily reach CTRL + SHIFT + 1 (for F1). Or if the number row isn't necessary just make a FN layer that stays once you put it on and changes the number row to F1 - F10 and everything else stays the same? I don't know if it is called PN layer instead

[davkol]

Some food for thought. Would people use a board with separate buttons for 'a'  and 'A' (think IBM 122 key but even more insane)? That way you have every key accessible without the pesky "Shift" layer.

I mean it's really not that different. What is the difference between pressing shift and 'a' for 'A', and pressing 'Fn' and '1' for 'F1'? Both involve holding a key and pressing another. Yet one people do countless times a day, while the other many shy away from because it is "too difficult/inefficient". Just something to think about...

Some early typewriters like Calligraph actually were like that.

It's a fallacious argument though, because the primary use of alphanumeric keys is typing, while the extra function keys are used for editing or interaction with the UI by current software.

Chording may increase efficiency in some ways, BUT at the cost of speed for some people, maybe unless the modifiers are sticky… modality is rarely user-friendly though; even worse, ergonomics of such solution heavily depends on key placement, which is downright awful on nearly all "normal" keyboards nowadays.

[jacobolus]

This is an odd 75% layout I have been pondering....its wide left and adds a row to the bottom. I need to mock it up some time to see how annoying the extra bottom row is.

Show Image

Here was my similar concept:

(Though personally I suspect swapping ctrl and shift might work better. Thumb shift is a really nice feature.)

[davkol]

This is an odd 75% layout I have been pondering....its wide left and adds a row to the bottom. I need to mock it up some time to see how annoying the extra bottom row is.

Show Image

Here was my similar concept:

Show Image

(Though personally I suspect swapping ctrl and shift might work better. Thumb shift is a really nice feature.)

Now that's an interesting layout! The two controls next to each other look a bit weird, but I do see the point.

[jacobolus]

Now that's an interesting layout! The two controls next to each other look a bit weird, but I do see the point.

I’d combine them into one key, but I think it’s more useful in a programmable keyboard to let someone remap them to two separate things if they want.

[davkol]

…or split keyboard!

A bit off-topic, but anyway: The training effect on typing on two alternative keyboards (M. ***arasanu et al.)

Conclusions: Due to the fact that the increase in performance following the training period did not cause higher
muscle activity, ergonomic keyboards may constitute a solution for reducing typing related musculoskeletal problems.

One of the tested keyboard was the Goldtouch Adjustable (a 75% keyboard, thus back on-topic!).

[pseudonym]

if someone makes a 75% that has standard mods and doesn't look ugly i will buy it

(Attachment Link)

Could you tell me what keyboard this is? Maybe i don't get the joke and it's a modded Noppoo choc mini?

Thanks mate.

[SpAmRaY]

if someone makes a 75% that has standard mods and doesn't look ugly i will buy it

(Attachment Link)

Could you tell me what keyboard this is? Maybe i don't get the joke and it's a modded Noppoo choc mini?

Thanks mate.

Its a few posts below. Its a new b.mini

[davkol]

…

[Quardah]

if someone makes a 75% that has standard mods and doesn't look ugly i will buy it

(Attachment Link)

Could you tell me what keyboard this is? Maybe i don't get the joke and it's a modded Noppoo choc mini?

Thanks mate.

Its a few posts below. Its a new b.mini

Yea that's a pretty clean board. Is it all custom built?

It doesn't seem "bloated" if i'm allowed to use this expression. The right first-row modifiers, are they 1x or 1.25x?


Also to everyone keep posting this thread it's relevant and i love it thanks.