Why are mouse and keyboard switches so different?

[wolfv]

Mouse buttons have a much shorter travel (and pre-travel) than keyboard switches.
Why is that?

Thanks for fielding my silly question.

[Lastpilot]

I am guessing its because keyboards require a streaming sequence of button presses that depend on factors like accuracy and comfort.

Mice are just hit for the occasional single or double-click. A short travel key press on a mouse ensures the least amount of non-intended movement on the actual mouse, which is not a factor on the keyboard.

And it's not a silly question!

[jacobolus]

I think it's just a historical artifact.

I would much prefer longer-travel switches on a mouse. I think Cherry MLs or clicky NMB/Hi-Tek “space invaders” would work pretty well for mouse switches.

[jacobolus]

Also, I think a mouse could comfortably hold at least 5-10 reasonably large keys on it, without interfering with it's function as a mouse (on the other hand, the “kings assembly” thing is overkill). There’s no reason not to e.g. be able to hold down a key that makes the mouse send USB codes for arrow key presses when it moves instead of mouse movements.

A mouse intended for use in photoshop should have buttons on it for changing the brush properties, a spacebar key (in photoshop holding the spacebar temporarily switches the tool to the grabber hand), etc.

A mouse being used for a browser should have buttons for scrolling, switching between tabs, saving the current webpage or text selection to some bookmark store, viewing archived pages for the current URL at the wayback machine, etc.

[Altis]

I think it's because your hands are generally static over top of the mouse button, the device is in your hand. You're resting your finger on the button, then you just apply some pressure on the finger to click it.

The keyboard has you moving your fingers constantly around, so landing on a button with no depth would probably be very uncomfortable. Having said that, they are reducing the travel of keyboards these days, so maybe it's coming.

[berserkfan]

I think it's just a historical artifact.

I would much prefer longer-travel switches on a mouse. I think Cherry MLs or clicky NMB/Hi-Tek “space invaders” would work pretty well for mouse switches.

Absolutely.

Nowadays gamers spam mouseclicks nonstop. I am wishing I could turn my stiff and nasty Kensington mouse switches to Cherry MX but don't know how.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

I've never seen an ergonomic mouse with buttons that have a long travel. I don't know the reason, but I'd imagine that they would have added them if it made a big difference comfort wise.

[jacobolus]

It does make a big difference. I suspect the creators of ergonomic mice never considered it. Ergonomic mice is a niche market, it’s not like the guys making them have big teams of researchers. I wonder what the backgrounds of ergonomic mice creators even are. They probably have some mechanical engineers on the team, and hopefully some product designers. Few people involved in designing or building peripherals seem to have any particular background in hand anatomy or human factors research though. When occasionally there are some real experts involved in making a product (e.g. the MS ergonomic keyboards) there are usually so many other design constraints (low cost, similarity to existing products) that they don’t have anything even close to carte blanche to design a product starting from human anatomy and working up.

Every commercially available mouse I’ve ever tried used little microswitches. Similarly, every commercial calculator, phone keypad, microwave, coffee machine, video game controller, etc. uses some crappy mushy low-travel switches, or the occasional nice one uses microswitches. Just be glad they aren’t moving to capacitive “buttons” like I recently had to use in a rental car: they looked like buttons, but didn’t depress at all, instead getting triggered via capacitive sensors when touched – except 3/4 of my touches did absolutely nothing. Unbelievably frustrating.

Would it be better if vendors did extensive research on switches to find the most effective one for their application, and then used those for their products (at least in some deluxe alternative version)? Of course. Is anyone going to do that? No. (Which is kind of sad considering how much e.g. video game controllers or “modern” graphing calculators sell for.)

[Grim Fandango]

I think responsiveness and size (of the switch) both play a large role in the reason why mice and keyboards use different kinds of switches.

The switches found in mice are not always of poor quality.  For my purposes, I would much prefer something like the Omron D2FC-F-7N to any switch I have used so far in a keyboard.

[jacobolus]

Good keyboard switches can be just as “responsive” as mouse switches. You just need something with a very sharp tactile point and relatively low travel. As I said, clicky space invaders would be great.

[Oobly]

Very different use cases. Switches for typing have different requirements to switches for precision mouse button clicking.

On the mouse you're keeping your fingers on the buttons and need to be able to click precisely without moving the mouse. That requires as little button movement as possible with positive feedback.

On the keyboard you move your fingers around and require larger movements to match. A microswitch keyboard doesn't feel "right" because the short travel, stiff click and hard bottom out don't match the larger movements you make while typing.

Microswitches are perfect for mouse use. The very short travel, good feedback and fast response with positive return are ideal for rapid and responsive mouse button use. Longer travel switches are better for keyboards such as Cherry MX, Topre, Buckling spring, etc.

[MJ45]

Good keyboard switches can be just as “responsive” as mouse switches. You just need something with a very sharp tactile point and relatively low travel. As I said, clicky space invaders would be great.

Very different use cases. Switches for typing have different requirements to switches for precision mouse button clicking.

On the mouse you're keeping your fingers on the buttons and need to be able to click precisely without moving the mouse. That requires as little button movement as possible with positive feedback.

On the keyboard you move your fingers around and require larger movements to match. A microswitch keyboard doesn't feel "right" because the short travel, stiff click and hard bottom out don't match the larger movements you make while typing.

Microswitches are perfect for mouse use. The very short travel, good feedback and fast response with positive return are ideal for rapid and responsive mouse button use. Longer travel switches are better for keyboards such as Cherry MX, Topre, Buckling spring, etc.

Mouse switches can be swapped out for better feel, force, tactility, rebound etc. Omron, Hunao , and even Cherry make micro switches for mice. I favor Omron Japan D2F-F 0.74n for button 1 & 2 and Omron Japan D2F-01 1.47n for 3, 4 and 5. Its like keyboard switch preferences every one is different. I buy my mice for shape and good sensors if the switches are not to my liking I'll swap them out.

[fohat.digs]

On the mouse you're keeping your fingers on the buttons and need to be able to click precisely without moving the mouse.

This has got to be it.

My hands are flying and pounding where the keyboard is concerned, and, depending on my emotions at the time, some keys like spacebar and enter get an even more vicious pummeling.

Mouse buttons need to be silky smooth and light, although the tactile feedback is essential.

I am not a gamer, but I would love lighter mouse buttons.

[jacobolus]

Very different use cases. Switches for typing have different requirements to switches for precision mouse button clicking.

On the mouse you're keeping your fingers on the buttons and need to be able to click precisely without moving the mouse. That requires as little button movement as possible with positive feedback.  [...] Microswitches are perfect for mouse use. The very short travel, good feedback and fast response with positive return are ideal for rapid and responsive mouse button use.

This all sounds like post-facto justification for something you’re familiar with, rather than reasoning from first principles. Have you ever tried using a longer-travel switch in a mouse?

Mouse buttons need to be silky smooth and light, although the tactile feedback is essential.

Mouse buttons in every commercial mouse I’ve ever seen are quite stiff. They need to be with the low travel, or else they would be accidentally pressed all the time.

[Grim Fandango]

Good keyboard switches can be just as “responsive” as mouse switches. You just need something with a very sharp tactile point and relatively low travel. As I said, clicky space invaders would be great.

Good keyboard switches can be just as "responsive" as mouse switches.  You just need something with a very sharp tactile point and a relatively low travel. Aka, not keyboard switches.

But I get it. My purposes and requirements for a mouse would be different from those of a lot of people here. I have my preference in mouse switches and seriously doubt whether something more similar to a keyboard switch would be more comfortable or better for performance.

[davkol]

• dealing with off-center button presses
• double-clicking and Diablo-like clickfests
• limited space inside most pointing devices
• different way of mounting actual buttons, usually with levers (e.g., mouse shell)

[jacobolus]

Good keyboard switches can be just as "responsive" as mouse switches.  You just need something with a very sharp tactile point and a relatively low travel. Aka, not keyboard switches.

By relatively low travel I mean something on order 2–3 mm, with actuation at maybe 0.8–1.5mm into the stroke. I.e. much longer travel than a typical mouse switch.

My purposes and requirements for a mouse would be different from those of a lot of people here.

What are your purposes and requirements?

• dealing with off-center button presses
• double-clicking and Diablo-like clickfests
• limited space inside most pointing devices
• different way of mounting actual buttons, usually with levers (e.g., mouse shell)

Why would off-center button presses be a problem in a device where your finger always stays in the same place?

I think that e.g. clicky space invader switches are perfectly fine for "clickfests". Even nice-quality laptop-keyboard scissor switches would work just fine (i.e. better than the majority of existing mouse switches) for most mouse uses, I think.

Obviously existing mouse designs wouldn’t too easily accommodate existing keyboard switches (since the switches are currently mounted against the shell, as you point out, the motion is actually a pivot of part of the shell rather than a linear press, and so if the travel got too long the plastic would start breaking), but that seems like very shallow reasoning again based on justifying an existing setup rather than reasoning from first principles. There’s nothing fundamentally stopping mouse switches from having a longer travel distance, or stopping mouse designs from being changed to work with other switches. Just historical inertia.

One reason thinking about this is important is because clicking the mouse contributes to RSI for many folks, which in severe cases can be debilitating.

[davkol]

Why would off-center button presses be a problem in a device where your finger always stays in the same place?

Incorrect assumption. Palm grip users often press buttons around the front edge, while fingertip grip favors clicking rather in the back.

Some mice are used by more people and some people change their grip over time.

Obviously existing mouse designs wouldn’t too easily accommodate existing keyboard switches (since the switches are currently mounted against the shell, as you point out, the motion is actually a pivot of part of the shell rather than a linear press, and so if the travel got too long the plastic would start breaking), but that seems like very shallow reasoning again based on justifying an existing setup rather than reasoning from first principles. There’s nothing fundamentally stopping mouse switches from having a longer travel distance, or stopping mouse designs from being changed to work with other switches. Just historical inertia.

Change for the sake of change?

If the only point is longer travel… well, it's been done before. Springs between mouse shell and switches and scissor-switch dome buttons do exist, but haven't received much praise AFAIK, because of poor stabilization and too much force overall¹ required to (double)click; I mean, like some ergonomic studies operate with the sum of all force and travel needed to do a task.

One reason thinking about this is important is because clicking the mouse contributes to RSI for many folks, which in severe cases can be debilitating.

The very first word of RSI is "repetitive". Many (most?) user interfaces are designed to make use of repetitive clicking and stuff. There are already ways to avoid it though. For example, I posted my last comment without any pointing device connected to my desktop. Likewise, I've setup my Tablet PC to emulate mouse clicks when needed.

There are obviously use cases that require clicking a mouse; (pro)gaming comes to mind. AFAIK the fighting-games community has experimented with keyboard switches and went back to arcade buttons, because of *performance*.

[jacobolus]

Why would off-center button presses be a problem in a device where your finger always stays in the same place?

Incorrect assumption. Palm grip users often press buttons around the front edge, while fingertip grip favors clicking rather in the back.

So build a mouse which puts the buttons exactly where they’re needed. People with different grips would probably benefit from different overall mouse shapes.

There are obviously use cases that require clicking a mouse; (pro)gaming comes to mind. AFAIK the fighting-games community has experimented with keyboard switches and went back to arcade buttons, because of *performance*.

Arcade buttons have *much more* travel than mouse buttons.

[wolfv]

Wow, thanks for all the responses.
That question has been in the back of my mind for a long time.
You are all awesome  .