Author Topic: Group Buys  (Read 10003 times)

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Offline nubbinator

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Group Buys
« on: Wed, 10 September 2014, 23:48:50 »
Are PimpMyKeyboard (SP) group buys now allowed in the GB subforum?  I followed the new rules for mine when I tried to run it, but now we have Nuclear Green Data Set and Pulse running in the GB section.  Has the policy changed?  It would be nice to have some sort of consistency in the rules or have the rules amended to reflect the new reality.

Offline asdfjkl36

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 00:02:21 »
Midnight and other GBs from PMK were put into the SP subforum, so i feel these others should be placed there as well.

Offline nubbinator

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 00:22:01 »
Midnight and other GBs from PMK were put into the SP subforum, so i feel these others should be placed there as well.

A little consistency would be nice.  If I had known I could run mine from the GB forum, I would have instead of running it in the ghetto.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 00:48:21 »
So we're on about this again? Multiple people have said that the group buy posting rules are being looked at, with the aim of possibly revising them to better reflect the true nature of whether something is actually a community group buy, or just a vendor sponsored sale.

Things are in flux right now. Each case will likely need to be judged on whether it merits group buy status, on an individual basis.

The two sets you mentioned are very probably more popular than the other set you compared them to due to them being made in SA profile, which is trending at the moment. I doubt it has much to do with where on the forum the thread is located.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 00:53:18 »
ditto jd. this is currently a subject of extended and intense discussion among _all_ the staff. we recognize fully that the situation is evolving and that our previous simple rules are often not giving the community positive results.

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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 00:53:32 »
I'm on it until we get a good answer. 

So it's okay to do it if it's popular, but not if it's less popular?  That's not really an answer.  All I'm asking for is some consistency in the rules.  Either let it go back to the way it was, or hold everyone to the same standard while things are being figured out.

You can't really have an "individual basis" without transparency.  Since there's no transparency, letting some slide while relegating others elsewhere really creates the image of something wrong.  Personally, I think all should be in the GB section, but if you're going to have a rule I disagree with, at least enforce it consistently.

ditto jd. this is currently a subject of extended and intense discussion among _all_ the staff. we recognize fully that the situation is evolving and that our previous simple rules are often not giving the community positive results.

So are the new rules now abolished?  If they are, it would be nice to have a post clarifying how they have changed.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 00:56:19 »
nubbinator, did you try to start your thread in the Group Buys subforum? I'm sure it would have been left there.

And staff make decisions about rules and policy all the time. Transparency is not a requirement, but a consensus among the staff is.


Also, doing something that is popular among the membership base versus something that is unpopular is kinda the point behind a community group buy. And the very reason for the interest check.
« Last Edit: Thu, 11 September 2014, 01:00:24 by jdcarpe »
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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 01:00:21 »
It's not just about my GB (which is irrelevant now), but about all the SP PMK GBs that are only being advertised in the SP subforum.  If they can be run from the GB sub, it only makes sense to me to ask the thread owners if they want them to be moved to the GB subforum since it gets more views.  Since the rule stated that they had to be run in the SP subforum, everyone has been following those rules.  They have been doing what they were asked to do by the mods.

If rules change and the enforcement of them changes, announcements should be made so that people know how to follow the rules.  If rules are unknown, how can they be followed properly?

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 01:18:57 »
Actually, it's pretty easy, at least to me, to make the distinction between a community group buy and a vendor sponsored group "sale."

Does the organizer act in the interest of the community? If so, their thread almost certainly belongs in the Group Buys subforum. Did they run a successful interest check? Do they take a leadership role in making the buy a success? Do they take responsibility for marketing the buy to the membership? Do they accept responsibility and work toward making things right when problems arise? These are things that provide evidence of a community group buy.

On the other side are the "organizers" that simply submit an idea to SP via the PMK group buy site. They pick a colorway they personally like, and hope for the best. They generally take a hands-off approach, letting SP deal with any issues that arise. This would include organizers that do the majority of their posting on other keyboard forums, only marginally including geekhack in their process, mostly for the purpose of broadening appeal of their buy.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 01:37:11 »
we committed originally to a set of simple rules that would allow us to make easy boxes to put things into. now that we have had some experience with that set of simple rules, we are starting to see that these rules put some majorly positive community efforts into very bad situations, through no fault of the community itself. hence, the rules are in a state of flux while we attempt to build more appropriate and complex diagrams of the actors, their up and downsides, their roles in the completion of what we currently group under the umbrella of group buys and what we currently group under the umbrella of vendor sales.

in the meantime, there will be dust from the construction and destruction. we ask that you please pardon our dust until we can assemble something newer and better for the community.

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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 14:45:39 »
If that's the case, can we at least offer to move GB threads in other subforums to the GB sub for increased visibility while things are being worked out?  I know the additional visibility would help some people.

Offline IPT

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 14:48:42 »
so while the dust is settling, its ok to make a SP GB in the GB forums?
thats pretty much what i'm reading here.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 15:16:16 »

If that's the case, can we at least offer to move GB threads in other subforums to the GB sub for increased visibility while things are being worked out?  I know the additional visibility would help some people.

For what, GreenTea? Yeah, I think that one should go under Group Buys. Numiru has put a lot of effort into it. Too bad it's being run at the same time as PuLSE, since I can only afford one or the other. :(
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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 15:26:42 »

If that's the case, can we at least offer to move GB threads in other subforums to the GB sub for increased visibility while things are being worked out?  I know the additional visibility would help some people.

For what, GreenTea? Yeah, I think that one should go under Group Buys. Numiru has put a lot of effort into it. Too bad it's being run at the same time as PuLSE, since I can only afford one or the other. :(

Green Tea, some of the add on packs for NGD, etc.  Again, it's an issue of consistency.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 15:54:31 »
Pretty sure the mods don't have time to go searching for every active PMK group buy and messaging the organizers. But if you want to take up that task, nubbinator, I don't foresee anyone giving you a hard time about it.
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Offline Puddsy

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 12 September 2014, 16:16:07 »
nvm
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Offline demik

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 12 September 2014, 17:49:09 »
consistency?

on gh?

lol

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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 12 September 2014, 18:09:19 »
consistency?

on gh?

lol

rules are made up as we go nubs!

Sometimes I forget these things.

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 23 September 2014, 11:26:52 »
any update on having group buy rules?

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 23 September 2014, 12:19:54 »
any update on having group buy rules?

there are no rules
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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 07 October 2014, 10:37:47 »
any update on having group buy rules?

^^ any thought on having a rule that a person has to be a certain age to run a group buy?

Offline MOZ

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 07 October 2014, 12:49:51 »
With the PMK system pretty much ironed out, GBs have been dropping from right, left and center. Way too many to keep track off and quite a bit of dilution. Sorry for the OT.

Offline Krogenar

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 11:15:48 »
With the PMK system pretty much ironed out, GBs have been dropping from right, left and center. Way too many to keep track off and quite a bit of dilution. Sorry for the OT.

It doesn't seem off-topic at all. With PMK's system improved and apparently much faster than the traditional method of GB's, and now having added Interest Checks to their system, shouldn't GH drop the groupbuy segregation policy? There are a lot of GBs happening, having them spread out in various forums still seems ridiculous.

any update on having group buy rules?

^^ any thought on having a rule that a person has to be a certain age to run a group buy?

That's a great idea, but how would we enforce it or verify someone's age? I wonder how (or if) PMK does it?

Quote from: mkawa
we committed originally to a set of simple rules that would allow us to make easy boxes to put things into. now that we have had some experience with that set of simple rules, we are starting to see that these rules put some majorly positive community efforts into very bad situations, through no fault of the community itself.

 :blank:
« Last Edit: Fri, 10 October 2014, 11:18:06 by Krogenar »
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Offline IPT

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 11:42:05 »
With the PMK system pretty much ironed out, GBs have been dropping from right, left and center. Way too many to keep track off and quite a bit of dilution. Sorry for the OT.

It doesn't seem off-topic at all. With PMK's system improved and apparently much faster than the traditional method of GB's, and now having added Interest Checks to their system, shouldn't GH drop the groupbuy segregation policy? There are a lot of GBs happening, having them spread out in various forums still seems ridiculous.

any update on having group buy rules?

^^ any thought on having a rule that a person has to be a certain age to run a group buy?

That's a great idea, but how would we enforce it or verify someone's age? I wonder how (or if) PMK does it?

Quote from: mkawa
we committed originally to a set of simple rules that would allow us to make easy boxes to put things into. now that we have had some experience with that set of simple rules, we are starting to see that these rules put some majorly positive community efforts into very bad situations, through no fault of the community itself.

 :blank:


bunch of people don't like how SP is profiting from GBs
so they want to split up "non profit GB" and "Commercial GB"

i personally agree with you, but you know how the vocal ones are.

Offline MOZ

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 11:42:25 »
With PMK, verification of age is moot, as they handle all the logistics, and all the user has to do is design a good looking set.

Offline Puddsy

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 11:48:53 »
You understand SP profits off of GBs wherever we run them or not, right? That's kind of what they do...
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Offline Photekq

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 11:53:44 »
any update on having group buy rules?

^^ any thought on having a rule that a person has to be a certain age to run a group buy?
What would that age be though? I don't know of any failed group buys run by people under 18.
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Offline Krogenar

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 11:56:57 »
bunch of people don't like how SP is profiting from GBs
so they want to split up "non profit GB" and "Commercial GB"
i personally agree with you, but you know how the vocal ones are.

I agree with you that the facts apparently don't matter to some people. But as was pointed out in this thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55800.0) -- which was subsequently placed in 'off-topic' (?) -- every GB that was run through Signature Plastics was profitable (or intended to be profitable) to Signature Plastics. The 'traditional' way of running a GB, in which all logistics aside from manufacturing are handled by a forum member -- SP still makes a profit. So ... that argument doesn't really hold.

The best argument that was made in the thread I referenced above is that having vendors too closely 'integrated' into the community could change it's nature. To me, it still stinks of a small minority (whoever makes the rules at GH) believing that ordinary community members won't make the choice that they would prefer that they make (go the 'traditional' GB route).

The keyboard community exists apart from GH, and I think it would be wiser to make it easier for people to get what they want, not harder. Maybe if GH makes it annoying and difficult enough, the community will just move to the PMK forums? Maybe not everyone, but a large number of people will just check at PMK.

Put all the groupbuys in one forum -- what arrangement could be simpler than that? If users need to be 'protected' from evil corporations (eyeroll) then clearly label the groupbuys that are sponsored by a vendor as such, so concerned forum members can steer clear.

Have we determined yet, that a PMK-groupbuy is, in fact, a groupbuy, and not some other sort of event?

With PMK, verification of age is moot, as they handle all the logistics, and all the user has to do is design a good looking set.

You're right, thanks MOZ! Glad we could establish that the PMK system is inherently safer than a traditional GB.
« Last Edit: Fri, 10 October 2014, 11:59:06 by Krogenar »
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Offline IPT

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 11:58:52 »
You understand SP profits off of GBs wherever we run them or not, right? That's kind of what they do...

bunch of people don't like how SP is profiting from GBs
so they want to split up "non profit GB" and "Commercial GB"
i personally agree with you, but you know how the vocal ones are.

I agree with you that the facts apparently don't matter to some people. But as was pointed out in this thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55800.0) -- which was subsequently placed in 'off-topic' (?) -- every GB that was run through Signature Plastics was profitable (or intended to be profitable) to Signature Plastics. The 'traditional' way of running a GB, in which all logistics aside from manufacturing are handled by a forum member -- SP still makes a profit. So ... that argument doesn't really hold.

The best argument that was made in the thread I referenced above is that having vendors too closely 'integrated' into the community could change it's nature. To me, it still stinks of a small minority (whoever makes the rules at GH) believing that ordinary community members won't make the choice that they would prefer that they make (go the 'traditional' GB route).

The keyboard community exists apart from GH, and I think it would be wiser to make it easier for people to get what they, not harder. Maybe if GH makes it annoying enough and difficult enough, the community will just move to the PMK forums?

Put all the groupbuys in one forum -- what arrangement could be simpler than that? If users need to be 'protected' from evil corporations (eyeroll) then clearly label the groupbuys that are sponsored by a vendor as such, so concerned forum members can steer clear.

Have we determined yet, that a PMK-groupbuy is, in fact, a groupbuy, and not some other sort of event?

With PMK, verification of age is moot, as they handle all the logistics, and all the user has to do is design a good looking set.

You're right, thanks MOZ! Glad we could establish that the PMK system is inherently safer than a traditional GB.

hey we're all in agreement, im just saying what people were arguing about when they made the decision that PMK GBs are only allowed in SP's forum pages and not in the GB forum pages.

Offline Krogenar

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 12:14:23 »
hey we're all in agreement, im just saying what people were arguing about when they made the decision that PMK GBs are only allowed in SP's forum pages and not in the GB forum pages.

Oh yeah, we agree. I'm just posting the link to the original thread that discussed this issue in more depth, and was later buried in the Off-Topic subforum!

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55800.0



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Offline MOZ

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 13:21:37 »
How about a GB subforum with all SP groupbuys, be it:
1. Run on PMK by GH member
2. Run on PMK by vendors closely "integrated" with the community
3. Run on PMK by vendors non closely "integrated" with the community
4. Run on PMK by non-GH member/vendor
5. Run in the "traditional" way by a GH member/vendor

Basically, if the keycaps are manufactured by SP, you "may" post it in that subforum. I write, "may" because vendors if they want can have it in their own section (Which would generally mean lesser visibility) but it is upto them.

The current issue is some people feel some keycap group buys get more visibility in the group buy section vs being in the SP vendor groupbuy. If all SP manufactured groupbuys are in one section, that section would get enough visibility. Also, if it is a subforum of the groupbuy forum, I believe (Please correct me if wrong) if someone subscribes to or is subscribed to the group buy section, they will be subsribed to this subforum as well.

The SP vendor section will remain and SP can post any threads for non-group buy stuff such as promos, sales, support, etc.

Offline Tiramisuu

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 13:54:23 »
From the perspective of a customer, I put a lot more faith in our vendors commitment to deliver in a timely fashion than I do in a member's ability to organize and execute a group buy.

In the area of custom pcb,  and plates group buys reduce the manufacturing cost but it is still a crap shoot if and when they will deliver.

I want to see vendor sales and group buy offerings more than random member interest checks that may or may not ever fly
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Offline Krogenar

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 14:39:05 »
How about a GB subforum with all SP groupbuys, be it:
1. Run on PMK by GH member
2. Run on PMK by vendors closely "integrated" with the community
3. Run on PMK by vendors non closely "integrated" with the community
4. Run on PMK by non-GH member/vendor
5. Run in the "traditional" way by a GH member/vendor

Basically, if the keycaps are manufactured by SP, you "may" post it in that subforum. I write, "may" because vendors if they want can have it in their own section (Which would generally mean lesser visibility) but it is upto them.

The current issue is some people feel some keycap group buys get more visibility in the group buy section vs being in the SP vendor groupbuy. If all SP manufactured groupbuys are in one section, that section would get enough visibility. Also, if it is a subforum of the groupbuy forum, I believe (Please correct me if wrong) if someone subscribes to or is subscribed to the group buy section, they will be subsribed to this subforum as well.

The SP vendor section will remain and SP can post any threads for non-group buy stuff such as promos, sales, support, etc.

That makes sense.

If SP were to sell a stock keycap set, or some other stock item -- then that clearly goes in their vendor forum. If SP designs their own keycap set, or product or service, calls to purchase it should go into their vendor forum. That, I think, makes sense.

Maybe break out groupbuys by the product? A subgroup for keycap sets, another for cases, etc.?
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Quote from: Samuel Adams
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

Offline MOZ

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 14:49:06 »
Half the groupbuys are for keycaps, thus I suggested only a seperate section for keycaps GBs.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 09:10:21 »
If a "group buy" organizer or leader doesn't consider themselves to be doing much of anything, and rather that they simply click a few buttons on the PMK site, they shouldn't be advertising "their" group buy here at Geekhack. At least not in the IC and GB forums.


This discussion is relevant, because people need to be aware of the type of person they are entrusting to lead their group buy.


I'm just submitting a couple of drawings for free to PMK, so people can buy them if they like, silly kid.

"entrusting to lead their group buy"

WHOAH, CALM DOWN EVERYBODY.

We need Gandhi himself to "lead" a group buy nowadays (read submit a drawing to PMK).

Let's bring this huge leader of the human kind to GH so we can have a keyset going on, and we shall all succeed with pride of our great leader.

^^^
This is from the Cospar IC thread, before MiTo edited his post (emphasis added by me). Clearly he believes he is not leading a group buy, and he's just using GH for free advertising.
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 09:17:04 »
If a "group buy" organizer or leader doesn't consider themselves to be doing much of anything, and rather that they simply click a few buttons on the PMK site, they shouldn't be advertising "their" group buy here at Geekhack. At least not in the IC and GB forums.


This discussion is relevant, because people need to be aware of the type of person they are entrusting to lead their group buy.


I'm just submitting a couple of drawings for free to PMK, so people can buy them if they like, silly kid.

"entrusting to lead their group buy"

WHOAH, CALM DOWN EVERYBODY.

We need Gandhi himself to "lead" a group buy nowadays (read submit a drawing to PMK).

Let's bring this huge leader of the human kind to GH so we can have a keyset going on, and we shall all succeed with pride of our great leader.

^^^
This is from the Cospar IC thread, before MiTo edited his post (emphasis added by me). Clearly he believes he is not leading a group buy, and he's just using GH for free advertising.

To add to this

79782-0

This is not the type of person the community should be supporting.

Offline heedpantsnow

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 09:20:09 »
Current war aside, if all sby is doing is submitting the drawings to PMK, shouldn't that just go under the Signature Plastics sub forum and not under GB/IC?
I'm back.

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Offline JinDesu

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 09:29:46 »
Current war aside, if all sby is doing is submitting the drawings to PMK, shouldn't that just go under the Signature Plastics sub forum and not under GB/IC?

I would say IC would make sense, as it is to garner interest from the group to see if people have preferences etc. As far as the group buy comment goes, several other keysets are done via PMK as well. I suppose it's a worthy discussion of whether a PMK keyset should go under SP's subforum or under the GB subforum.
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Offline esoomenona

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« Reply #38 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 09:33:21 »
.
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 September 2015, 11:20:15 by esoomenona »

Offline JinDesu

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 09:37:48 »
That could work - any group buy that is interfaced with PMK directly by the purchaser is left as an IC with a link to the PMK site. There are several group buys where the OP takes on the purchasing and shipping/distribution even though the sets are from PMK, and I imagine those would fall under the group buy category.
Someday somebody will best me, but it won't be today, and it won't be you.

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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 09:46:52 »
No need for an IC here, when the "organizer" is simply plugging things into PMK's site. PMK has their own Interest Check section.

http://www.pimpmykeyboard.com/suggested/deals/
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in memoriam

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Offline esoomenona

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« Reply #41 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 09:50:05 »
.
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 September 2015, 11:19:47 by esoomenona »

Offline heedpantsnow

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 09:50:49 »
Real group buys are a ton of work. I can only imagine the energy that has to go into sorting, repackaging, etc. very different from a PMK transaction.

There's nothing wrong with doing a PMK transaction (I hesitate to even call it a Group Buy).  However, I think it's funny/dumb that there are some folks doing current PMK transactions that seem to regard themselves as making a much greater contribution than they really are.

This is why I think that even the IC should go under SP and not under our current GB structure. It's just not really a Group Buy. It's a "look at what I designed please go vote it up over on PMK and then buy from them if you want it".
I'm back.

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Offline Krogenar

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 10:28:38 »
If a "group buy" organizer or leader doesn't consider themselves to be doing much of anything, and rather that they simply click a few buttons on the PMK site, they shouldn't be advertising "their" group buy here at Geekhack. At least not in the IC and GB forums.


This discussion is relevant, because people need to be aware of the type of person they are entrusting to lead their group buy.


I'm just submitting a couple of drawings for free to PMK, so people can buy them if they like, silly kid.

"entrusting to lead their group buy"

WHOAH, CALM DOWN EVERYBODY.

We need Gandhi himself to "lead" a group buy nowadays (read submit a drawing to PMK).

Let's bring this huge leader of the human kind to GH so we can have a keyset going on, and we shall all succeed with pride of our great leader.

^^^
This is from the Cospar IC thread, before MiTo edited his post (emphasis added by me). Clearly he believes he is not leading a group buy, and he's just using GH for free advertising.

To add to this

(Attachment Link)

This is not the type of person the community should be supporting.


I didn't read the entire Cospar thread, but I did sense some hostility from some GH members towards the guy. And yeah, you're right, according to that quote MiTo doesn't sound willing to endure the self-flagellation and agony that a 'traditional' groupbuy entails. He's just designing the set, and 'pushing some buttons' on the PMK site.

And, uh, how does the community get hurt by this? And by 'community' I don't mean GH specifically, but the keyboard enthusiast community? They don't really. Samwisekoi and matteo have both used the PMK system -- are they sellouts or something? No, they're not sellouts -- I'm guessing that they probably just want to do the 'work' that they enjoy doing -- designing the keyset. They're not interested in the logistical dogwork like packing, sorting, collecting money, etc. Can you really blame them?

It seems to me that the creative aspect of these sorts of groupbuys is where we really need to focus. I'd rather see someone like sam or matt spend their time designing new stuff, instead of packing boxes. That's better for the community, too.

For some reason, unless the organizer is willing to suffer for the groupbuy, it's not a groupbuy anymore. If GH bans PMK groupbuys completely, GH becomes less and less of a destination for the 'community'. Instead, we should treat these PMK groupbuys as what they are -- good for the community at large. PMK's system lowers the barriers to entry for keyboard designers, and that's a good thing. It's bad for elitist snobs, but good for the community.
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Quote from: Samuel Adams
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

Offline JinDesu

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 10:36:36 »
I don't think it's about banning PMK group buys - just that moving it into the PMK subforum. I suppose the concern is that it reduces the visibility of those group-buys. I personally only view this forum from the "Unread" section, so I see every thread that is created, but I imagine a lot of people visit the group buy thread as a catch-all section.
Someday somebody will best me, but it won't be today, and it won't be you.

Proud owner of a Filco Majestouch Cherry MX Blue Tenkeyless, KBT Race S, & Realforce 101

Offline Krogenar

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 10:45:30 »
I don't think it's about banning PMK group buys - just that moving it into the PMK subforum. I suppose the concern is that it reduces the visibility of those group-buys. I personally only view this forum from the "Unread" section, so I see every thread that is created, but I imagine a lot of people visit the group buy thread as a catch-all section.

If a "group buy" organizer or leader doesn't consider themselves to be doing much of anything, and rather that they simply click a few buttons on the PMK site, they shouldn't be advertising "their" group buy here at Geekhack. At least not in the IC and GB forums.

What's GH for, if not to discuss stuff that's happening in the community? If someone on deskthority or reddit is doing something new with keyboards, isn't it relevant and worthy of a thread here? Apparently not. I mean, even if the organizer of a PMK-sponsored groupbuy were Satan incarnate, wouldn't it still serve the community better to have one more place to discuss The Dark Lord's latest diabolical plan?

The answer is 'No.' because some people at GH believe that if these plans are discussed here, they'll succeed. And they can't have that.

But it looks like they're succeeding anyway, and we just look foolish for trying to stop the discussion.
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Quote from: Samuel Adams
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

Offline IPT

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 11:35:50 »
I don't think it's about banning PMK group buys - just that moving it into the PMK subforum. I suppose the concern is that it reduces the visibility of those group-buys. I personally only view this forum from the "Unread" section, so I see every thread that is created, but I imagine a lot of people visit the group buy thread as a catch-all section.

If a "group buy" organizer or leader doesn't consider themselves to be doing much of anything, and rather that they simply click a few buttons on the PMK site, they shouldn't be advertising "their" group buy here at Geekhack. At least not in the IC and GB forums.

What's GH for, if not to discuss stuff that's happening in the community? If someone on deskthority or reddit is doing something new with keyboards, isn't it relevant and worthy of a thread here? Apparently not. I mean, even if the organizer of a PMK-sponsored groupbuy were Satan incarnate, wouldn't it still serve the community better to have one more place to discuss The Dark Lord's latest diabolical plan?

The answer is 'No.' because some people at GH believe that if these plans are discussed here, they'll succeed. And they can't have that.

But it looks like they're succeeding anyway, and we just look foolish for trying to stop the discussion.

the recent posts are really more of a vendetta against one person than against the PMK/SP system.

Offline Krogenar

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 12:15:40 »
the recent posts are really more of a vendetta against one person than against the PMK/SP system.

Yeah, I've been reading through the Cospar thread, and gotten a PM about the vendetta.

Even if the person in question is a full-out jerk, an ongoing groupbuy should be an acceptable topic of discussion at a keyboard enthusiast forum. Let the GH mods keep it civil and based on facts, but don't start banning or ghetto-izing topics that the community should know about. Kudos to The Hoff's heroic efforts to keep that thread civil.

Also, the talk of IP rights is sort of funny. How many keycaps and keycap sets brush up against or outright break existing copyrights? A lot of them. And I've bought them, so, I'm not excluding myself. We're in a foxhole and getting religion all of a sudden.
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Quote from: Samuel Adams
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

Offline MOZ

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 12:19:28 »
Just to add, anyone who says I am not profiting from PMK GB, they are _lying_. PMK offers the GB "leader" at the very least one of every designed kit, which can run into $100-200 after market cost, or even more.

Some GBs organised in the traditional way, GB leaders probably make about $10 per complete set max (This I am guessing based on PML prices per set and prices in the GBs. I don't think they make any more, if any at all. This means for 15-25 orders, the "profit" is even at best.

Offline scubaste

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Re: Group Buys
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 15 October 2014, 13:01:00 »
Just to add, anyone who says I am not profiting from PMK GB, they are _lying_. PMK offers the GB "leader" at the very least one of every designed kit, which can run into $100-200 after market cost, or even more.

Some GBs organised in the traditional way, GB leaders probably make about $10 per complete set max (This I am guessing based on PML prices per set and prices in the GBs. I don't think they make any more, if any at all. This means for 15-25 orders, the "profit" is even at best.

This is a little one sided imo. If all you do is punch in 2 colors and pick a profile(on PMK) then chances are its not going to be that great in the first place, and/or not all that successful. On the other hand, it seems to me that someone could spend a tremendous amount of time taking feedback and redesigning things to get them right. You could keep up with it everyday for the duration of the interest check and group buy phases and end up with many many hours of your time "donated". Now I don't know about you guys but spending say 20+ solid hours to get 1 free set doesn't seem like a profitable situation to me.