Author Topic: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?  (Read 10684 times)

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Offline keyhopper

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Hello!
I'm new to the community, though I've been lurking the forums for quite some time.
I currently own a 1995 IBM Model M and a 2014 Razer with Kailh orange switches.

My question relates to the razer keyboard. I know Razer is no one's favorite,
but it's the closest I could get to a tenKeyLess with brown switches where I live,
without having to deal with shops that import electronics on request, at a huge premium.
I mean, I cannot even easily get a CM Rapid or a Filco.

So, back to the issue, about a week after I bought it, it started making this sound
on the Enter key:


       http://vocaroo.com/i/s0ym150g76Hj


at first I thought that the sound came from the stabilizers, then I lifted the key cap
and realized that the noise was produced when directly pushing the switch, even when
striking it slowly, and not even bottoming out or releasing it.
I can notice it just floating around below the "tactile response zone".

I learned to live with it, but now, a month later, the strange sound syndrome begun to
affect the 'O' then the 'G', and now it is also in the 'W', 'T' and 'I'.


My humble questions are:
  - Is this normal on these kinds of mechanical keyboards? Does it also occur on Cherry's ?
  - Did some factory lubricant just evaporated from those switches?
  - Did I get a lemmon?
  - Should I just learn to live with it?

I would appreciate any info!! 
Hahhaha it seems like a lot of questions, but any kind of info is appreciated.

I think it is not ping because I can hear it while floating/hovering the key without
either bottoming it out or releasing it. But maybe you guys still call it ping too.
It clearly comes from the spring though.

The issue is driving me insane, because I otherwise like this keyboard a lot.
I got used to actuate keys by slightly tapping on them, and I enjoy it every time,
thanks to the shallow actuation point.

The crazy thing is, my IBM Model M makes a lot of noise and has loud ping sounds,
but it doesn't bother me at all, maybe because I expect it. Whereas on my
Razer, I find the uneveness of sounds very distracting and it definitely triggers my OCD.

What do you guys think?

.KeyHopper.


« Last Edit: Mon, 15 September 2014, 22:23:36 by keyhopper »
RealForce 87UB 55gr    |    IBM Model M (1995)    |    Razer B.W.T.E. Stealth (w Razer oranges)

Offline FrostyToast

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 18:58:37 »
That is the funkiest sounding thing that I have ever heard.
It would help if we had a video of this.
Quote from: elton5354
I don't need anymore keyboards

Offline keyhopper

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 19:04:08 »
Thanks for replying,

I'll try to upload a video in a few minutes to youtube, it might take me some time

RealForce 87UB 55gr    |    IBM Model M (1995)    |    Razer B.W.T.E. Stealth (w Razer oranges)

Offline Puddsy

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 19:21:08 »
That's really weird

It's probably ping.
QFR | MJ2 TKL | "Bulgogiboard" (Keycon 104) | ctrl.alt x GON 60% | TGR Alice | Mira SE #29 | Mira SE #34 | Revo One | z | Keycult No. 1 | AIS65 | First CW87 prototype | Mech27v1 | Camp C225 | Duck Orion V1 | LZ CLS sxh | Geon Frog TKL | Hiney TKL One | Geon Glare TKL



"Everything is worse, but in a barely perceptible and indefinable way" -dollartacos, after I came back from a break | "Is Linkshine our Nixon?" -NAV | "Puddsy is the Puddsy of keebs" -ns90

Offline keyhopper

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 20:13:55 »
I'm not sure it's ping :-)

I made two videos. I'm really OCDing on this right now

Youtube doesn't let me edit the volume, so in the second video I don't speak,
so that the volume can be raised and the weird noise appreciated -- I also went crazy with
the youtube annotations :D

       
        (Key switch noise on month old Razer BWTES with orange switches - Is it Ping?)

       
        (Part 2 - Key switch noise on month old Razer BWTES with orange switches - Is it Ping?)

As I understood it, ping was a reverberating metallic sound produced when suddenly releasing the key,
or sometimes when hitting it hard.

The sound on some of the keys in my keyboard, however, is produced even when pushing the
key slowly. It sounds like a rusty spring compressing.

Is this normal? Should I be worried?
Thanks!

« Last Edit: Mon, 15 September 2014, 20:33:45 by keyhopper »
RealForce 87UB 55gr    |    IBM Model M (1995)    |    Razer B.W.T.E. Stealth (w Razer oranges)

Offline FrostyToast

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 20:27:45 »
Ok so I think that your problem is that the springs have some kind of quality issues.
There is no actual lubricant applied to switches out of the factory to my knowledge either.
Check with the other people on here before doing this, but if it is the springs that are the issue, then you will need to desolder the faulty switches and replace the springs.
Quote from: elton5354
I don't need anymore keyboards

Offline Puddsy

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 20:29:16 »
listening again, yeah it sounds like a spring issues, not a plate-ping. Probably something to do with the fact that kalih switches are lower quality than cherry.

I wouldn't worry about it, the springs probably have a long time left in their lifespan.
QFR | MJ2 TKL | "Bulgogiboard" (Keycon 104) | ctrl.alt x GON 60% | TGR Alice | Mira SE #29 | Mira SE #34 | Revo One | z | Keycult No. 1 | AIS65 | First CW87 prototype | Mech27v1 | Camp C225 | Duck Orion V1 | LZ CLS sxh | Geon Frog TKL | Hiney TKL One | Geon Glare TKL



"Everything is worse, but in a barely perceptible and indefinable way" -dollartacos, after I came back from a break | "Is Linkshine our Nixon?" -NAV | "Puddsy is the Puddsy of keebs" -ns90

Offline wes1099

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Offline Puddsy

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 21:17:29 »
That's not very nice :|

Soldering is hard, yo
QFR | MJ2 TKL | "Bulgogiboard" (Keycon 104) | ctrl.alt x GON 60% | TGR Alice | Mira SE #29 | Mira SE #34 | Revo One | z | Keycult No. 1 | AIS65 | First CW87 prototype | Mech27v1 | Camp C225 | Duck Orion V1 | LZ CLS sxh | Geon Frog TKL | Hiney TKL One | Geon Glare TKL



"Everything is worse, but in a barely perceptible and indefinable way" -dollartacos, after I came back from a break | "Is Linkshine our Nixon?" -NAV | "Puddsy is the Puddsy of keebs" -ns90

Offline keyhopper

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 21:19:16 »
FrostyToast & TacticalStache: thanks for your replies!

> [..] I wouldn't worry about it, the springs probably have a long time left in their lifespan. [..]

Thanks!


> [..] There is no actual lubricant applied to switches out of the factory to my knowledge either. [..]

Good to know!
I will try using an isopropilic alcohol spray later on one key with the stem pushed down,
I was worried that doing that might affect the lubricant if any. Glad to know that it
might be relatively safe.


> Check with the other people on here before doing this, but if it is the
> springs that are the issue, then you will need to desolder the faulty
> switches and replace the springs.

I don't think I can find the appropiate springs.
I'll see whether I can solve with alcohol or get used to it.

Otherwise, I might try getting a real Cherry keyboard with browns from a shop that can import it,
though it might be expensive.
Since this is my first keyboard with cherry-like switches, I wasn't sure if this was normal,
and if buying another wasn't worth the time/effort.


It could also be some debris (aka: small hairs from our dog, they are everywhere).
I already used the vacuum cleaner on the board a few times, so I see how they might
have found their way up to the stem and then inside when pressed.

I'm dying to dissasemble these switches to examine the spring, but since they
are plate mounted I guess I'll have to desolder them, one of these weekends, if I feel up to
voiding the warranty.

I looked for dissasembly pictures of kailh switches, and the latch doesn't seem to be releasable
when plate mounted:

        http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Kaihua_PG1511_Yellow_--_disassembled.jpg
        (my switches have orange stem, but the little housing looks the same as the yellow ones,
        at least the part above the plate)

Thanks again,  :thumb:
.KeyHopper.
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 September 2014, 22:23:09 by keyhopper »
RealForce 87UB 55gr    |    IBM Model M (1995)    |    Razer B.W.T.E. Stealth (w Razer oranges)

Offline strict

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 21:26:29 »
To my ears it sounds like the spring inside that switch is binding up. When the springs are positioned properly they should be able to rotate ever-so-slightly as they compress. If the spring is positioned poorly it wont be able to rotate and will cause that "creaky" noise. the fix is to desolder the affected switches and re-position the spring. Optionally, you could also apply a tiny bit of lubricant to the spring while the switch is removed to help prevent it from binding up so readily.

Realforce EK45 (Silenced)  |  Realforce 87UW (45g)  |  Realforce 87UWS (Variable)
Filco MJ2 TKL (Cherry Clears)  |  Phantom 87 (78g Gateron Clears)  |  Phantom 86 (67g Zealios)


Offline keyhopper

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 21:31:10 »
This will fix all the problems - http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=806

Thanks!. Those reds should have the proper 45gr springs... though for starters if it was easy for me to buy something abroad, I would have bought a KUL ES-87, a Filco or a CM Rapid, and a nice PBT set.

I live in Argentina (South America), and the government thought it a good idea, to keep the currency strong, to restrict international shopping (to stop dollars from exiting, dumb)... stupid idea. So one either has to be registered in customs and be in a tax category that pays huge taxes, or travel and get it in person, or find a nice computer shop that already buys international things for you, but with a huge margin and "over-price".

Thank you again, I'll keep the link bookmarked. I might find a way to buy them. Having spare switches is never a bad idea.

Though what I wanted to know was whether it was normal. Now that I know it isn't,
I might try to return the board under warranty, or live with it.

Cheers
.KeyHopper.
RealForce 87UB 55gr    |    IBM Model M (1995)    |    Razer B.W.T.E. Stealth (w Razer oranges)

Offline keyhopper

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 21:48:21 »
To my ears it sounds like the spring inside that switch is binding up. When the springs are positioned properly they should be able to rotate ever-so-slightly as they compress. If the spring is positioned poorly it wont be able to rotate and will cause that "creaky" noise. the fix is to desolder the affected switches and re-position the spring. Optionally, you could also apply a tiny bit of lubricant to the spring while the switch is removed to help prevent it from binding up so readily.

Thank you!! It's always good to have a working theory.

I'll try pouring some lubricant or alcohol through the stem, and then mashing the switch, to see if it would help make the spring return to a good position

I'll report back the results (though maybe expect them by next weekend)


Any thoughts on a proper, easy to get, lubricant?

Cheers
.KeyHopper.

RealForce 87UB 55gr    |    IBM Model M (1995)    |    Razer B.W.T.E. Stealth (w Razer oranges)

Offline cherpalla

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 21:54:38 »
This will fix all the problems - http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=806

Thanks!. Those reds should have the proper 45gr springs... though for starters if it was easy for me to buy something abroad, I would have bought a KUL ES-87, a Filco or a CM Rapid, and a nice PBT set.

I live in Argentina (South America), and the government thought it a good idea, to keep the currency strong, to restrict international shopping (to stop dollars from exiting, dumb)... stupid idea. So one either has to be registered in customs and be in a tax category that pays huge taxes, or travel and get it in person, or find a nice computer shop that already buys international things for you, but with a huge margin and "over-price".

Thank you again, I'll keep the link bookmarked. I might find a way to buy them. Having spare switches is never a bad idea.

Though what I wanted to know was whether it was normal. Now that I know it isn't,
I might try to return the board under warranty, or live with it.

Cheers
.KeyHopper.

Can you have things mailed to you, as a "gift"?
c h e r

Offline keyhopper

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 21:58:30 »
This will fix all the problems - http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=806

Thanks!. Those reds should have the proper 45gr springs... though for starters if it was easy for me to buy something abroad, I would have bought a KUL ES-87, a Filco or a CM Rapid, and a nice PBT set.

I live in Argentina (South America), and the government thought it a good idea, to keep the currency strong, to restrict international shopping (to stop dollars from exiting, dumb)... stupid idea. So one either has to be registered in customs and be in a tax category that pays huge taxes, or travel and get it in person, or find a nice computer shop that already buys international things for you, but with a huge margin and "over-price".

Thank you again, I'll keep the link bookmarked. I might find a way to buy them. Having spare switches is never a bad idea.

Though what I wanted to know was whether it was normal. Now that I know it isn't,
I might try to return the board under warranty, or live with it.

Cheers
.KeyHopper.

Can you have things mailed to you, as a "gift"?


Probably, never tried it.

RealForce 87UB 55gr    |    IBM Model M (1995)    |    Razer B.W.T.E. Stealth (w Razer oranges)

Offline cherpalla

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 00:28:36 »
This will fix all the problems - http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=806

Thanks!. Those reds should have the proper 45gr springs... though for starters if it was easy for me to buy something abroad, I would have bought a KUL ES-87, a Filco or a CM Rapid, and a nice PBT set.

I live in Argentina (South America), and the government thought it a good idea, to keep the currency strong, to restrict international shopping (to stop dollars from exiting, dumb)... stupid idea. So one either has to be registered in customs and be in a tax category that pays huge taxes, or travel and get it in person, or find a nice computer shop that already buys international things for you, but with a huge margin and "over-price".

Thank you again, I'll keep the link bookmarked. I might find a way to buy them. Having spare switches is never a bad idea.

Though what I wanted to know was whether it was normal. Now that I know it isn't,
I might try to return the board under warranty, or live with it.

Cheers
.KeyHopper.

Can you have things mailed to you, as a "gift"?


Probably, never tried it.

Try buying something small out of the classifieds maybe, see what happens. Then you can always get a board and caps through one of us. :)
c h e r

Offline IPT

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 01:16:30 »
This will fix all the problems - http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=806

Thanks!. Those reds should have the proper 45gr springs... though for starters if it was easy for me to buy something abroad, I would have bought a KUL ES-87, a Filco or a CM Rapid, and a nice PBT set.

I live in Argentina (South America), and the government thought it a good idea, to keep the currency strong, to restrict international shopping (to stop dollars from exiting, dumb)... stupid idea. So one either has to be registered in customs and be in a tax category that pays huge taxes, or travel and get it in person, or find a nice computer shop that already buys international things for you, but with a huge margin and "over-price".

Thank you again, I'll keep the link bookmarked. I might find a way to buy them. Having spare switches is never a bad idea.

Though what I wanted to know was whether it was normal. Now that I know it isn't,
I might try to return the board under warranty, or live with it.

Cheers
.KeyHopper.

Can you have things mailed to you, as a "gift"?


Probably, never tried it.



no offense, but for someone who's got some experience with south america shipping, you'll be taxed to death even if its marked as gift.

Offline GL1TCH3D

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 17 September 2014, 10:24:10 »
This will fix all the problems - http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=806

Thanks!. Those reds should have the proper 45gr springs... though for starters if it was easy for me to buy something abroad, I would have bought a KUL ES-87, a Filco or a CM Rapid, and a nice PBT set.

I live in Argentina (South America), and the government thought it a good idea, to keep the currency strong, to restrict international shopping (to stop dollars from exiting, dumb)... stupid idea. So one either has to be registered in customs and be in a tax category that pays huge taxes, or travel and get it in person, or find a nice computer shop that already buys international things for you, but with a huge margin and "over-price".

Thank you again, I'll keep the link bookmarked. I might find a way to buy them. Having spare switches is never a bad idea.

Though what I wanted to know was whether it was normal. Now that I know it isn't,
I might try to return the board under warranty, or live with it.

Cheers
.KeyHopper.

Can you have things mailed to you, as a "gift"?


Probably, never tried it.



no offense, but for someone who's got some experience with south america shipping, you'll be taxed to death even if its marked as gift.

It's normal practice to devalue items on customs to avoid these taxes and duties. They also would have no idea how much a set of springs or keycaps are worth. Keyboard if they open thatwould be a bit more difficult but claiming it as a $10 keyboard probably wouldn't raise any alarms

Offline IPT

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 17 September 2014, 11:27:19 »
This will fix all the problems - http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=806

Thanks!. Those reds should have the proper 45gr springs... though for starters if it was easy for me to buy something abroad, I would have bought a KUL ES-87, a Filco or a CM Rapid, and a nice PBT set.

I live in Argentina (South America), and the government thought it a good idea, to keep the currency strong, to restrict international shopping (to stop dollars from exiting, dumb)... stupid idea. So one either has to be registered in customs and be in a tax category that pays huge taxes, or travel and get it in person, or find a nice computer shop that already buys international things for you, but with a huge margin and "over-price".

Thank you again, I'll keep the link bookmarked. I might find a way to buy them. Having spare switches is never a bad idea.

Though what I wanted to know was whether it was normal. Now that I know it isn't,
I might try to return the board under warranty, or live with it.

Cheers
.KeyHopper.

Can you have things mailed to you, as a "gift"?


Probably, never tried it.



no offense, but for someone who's got some experience with south america shipping, you'll be taxed to death even if its marked as gift.

It's normal practice to devalue items on customs to avoid these taxes and duties. They also would have no idea how much a set of springs or keycaps are worth. Keyboard if they open thatwould be a bit more difficult but claiming it as a $10 keyboard probably wouldn't raise any alarms

its not duty, its the customs clearance process, "kickback to the officials" and all the other nonsense that's related to shipping to south america.

Offline keyhopper

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 16:53:48 »
This will fix all the problems - http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=806

Thanks!. Those reds should have the proper 45gr springs... though for starters if it was easy for me to buy something abroad, I would have bought a KUL ES-87, a Filco or a CM Rapid, and a nice PBT set.

I live in Argentina (South America), and the government thought it a good idea, to keep the currency strong, to restrict international shopping (to stop dollars from exiting, dumb)... stupid idea. So one either has to be registered in customs and be in a tax category that pays huge taxes, or travel and get it in person, or find a nice computer shop that already buys international things for you, but with a huge margin and "over-price".

Thank you again, I'll keep the link bookmarked. I might find a way to buy them. Having spare switches is never a bad idea.

Though what I wanted to know was whether it was normal. Now that I know it isn't,
I might try to return the board under warranty, or live with it.

Cheers
.KeyHopper.

Can you have things mailed to you, as a "gift"?


Probably, never tried it.



no offense, but for someone who's got some experience with south america shipping, you'll be taxed to death even if its marked as gift.

It's normal practice to devalue items on customs to avoid these taxes and duties. They also would have no idea how much a set of springs or keycaps are worth. Keyboard if they open thatwould be a bit more difficult but claiming it as a $10 keyboard probably wouldn't raise any alarms

its not duty, its the customs clearance process, "kickback to the officials" and all the other nonsense that's related to shipping to south america.

I talked to a friend from work, and he said that even when shipped as gift, it is a problem still. Like, expect multi-month delays while it gets stuck in processing in customs.


RealForce 87UB 55gr    |    IBM Model M (1995)    |    Razer B.W.T.E. Stealth (w Razer oranges)

Offline keyhopper

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Re: Strange Kailh switch sound while *slowly* pushing down some keys - Ping?
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 20 September 2014, 16:55:05 »
Ok, as promised, I'm reporting back with results.

I had SUCCESS :D with the isoprophyl alcohol.

I applied it to the 'Enter' key on tuesday, and the offending sound has
been gone since. I also did it with the 'O' and 'I', but it returned on the 'I',
I may have put too little alcohol or not repeatedly hit the key correctly before the
alcohol evaporated.

I was a bit sad that it returned on the letter 'I', but seeing as it hasn't returned
on the other keys, I'll try it on all of them this weeked.

Now is Saturday, and I just applied it to the 'G' key and took a picture. Tomorrow
I might film how I'm doing it and upload it to youtube.

Basically I'm following this advice:

        http://www.overclock.net/t/1393125/double-tapping-issues-with-razer-blackwidow#post_20077316

although it was meant to fix chattering keys (double registers on a single key press),
which I had none, it inspired me to try something.

Method:

   I hold the switch slider down with a thin screwdriver, while I gently push
the alcohol spray. Veeery little alcohol !!!. I don't want to affect the switch,
I only want to have some alcohol reach the bottom of the housing to the base
of the spring, to reduce friction there and have the spring rotate into place,
and untwist. Then, while the alcohol starts evaporating, I hit the switch
repeatedly with my finger alternating between quickly hitting it or
holding it down for a few seconds.
   Immediately I notice that the "rusty spring sound" goes away. It worked
so far but it returned for the 'I' key in a matter of one hour.


I still don't know what is the cause of the sound but I have three theories:

        1) The one contributed in this thread: that the spring might have rotated
           too much and cannot go back into its natural state because of friction
           in the base.

        2) That two loops of the springs got tangled.

        3) Debris inside the switch.

I type at between 80 to 110 wpm, according to typeracer, and I have been
using the keyboard heavily. And though I've been learning to type without
bottoming-out, I think that most of its almost two months of usage I've been
bottoming out the keys.
   It doesn't matter though, I shouldn't have to expect these kinds of issues on a
new keyboard.
I'm angry that these strange sounds showed up on these keys, and that I don't know
what to do to prevent it, except not vacuuming it again if I can help it (that might
have sucked debris to the top of the stem, which could have found its way inside the switch).
I will not force myself to not bottom-out the keys, because what good is the keyboard then..
But in the end I'm happy that I found a fix.

I haven't de-soldered the switches yet. From what I've seen in youtube videos,
these razer keyboards are a bit tricky to dissasemble (not just screws, but hidden
plastic latches too). Eventually I know I will :-)


All in all, I still like this keyboard a lot. Even though it seemed to
develop quirks and a personality so quickly. The layout is exactly the one
I want (not easy to get here), and I really love the orange switches.


BTW, a few days ago I went through my old boxes. I found my first
PC keyboard, it turns out that it was a mechanical BTC. It has been under a
box, and it needs a lot of love, and de-yellowing with hidrogen peroxyde, which I never
tried and will sure be worth a nice post with pictures. It is completely linear,
and because of that I'm not sure I'll use it much, but it would be fun to use the
BTC for a week or so to bring back memories.

So I actually have 3 mechanical keyboards!
(Actually, counting membrane/rubber dome keyboards in my boxes and in use, I currently
have 11 keyboards in total!!!, some with a particular layout or with a story to tell.
I always have been able to fix spills by restoring shorted traces with graphite paint
on the membranes. I have only thrown out lousy keyboards that came with some of my old PCs).


Cheers!
.KeyHopper.


PD: Sorry for the long post!!

PD2: Following are attachments of my home made key puller :-), the isoprophyl alcohol spray
used (doesn't specify concentration on the label, it only says "high purity"),
the place on which I applied it (though I had to hold the camera with my other hand,
I actually pushed the slider with that hand), and my first PC keyboard ever, my BTC
(though technically, my first keyboard ever period was the Commodore 64, and the IBM Model M
on my cousins XT computer).

RealForce 87UB 55gr    |    IBM Model M (1995)    |    Razer B.W.T.E. Stealth (w Razer oranges)