Please critique this layout (60% with dedicated arrows)

[abjr]

I tried to keep it to 15u for a "true" 60%. I'll call it the AB60 if it's unique, but I couldn't find a similar layout I may try to use this if I ever revive my DIY project.



I suppose the backspace could be split as well.

[geniekid]

Have you considered the HHKB approach for the upper right corner?  Swap backspace and backslash and then split that 2u key into backslash and grave. 

I have other suggestions but I think they are mostly tailored to my workflow than inherently being better  

[epzy]

Have you considered the HHKB approach for the upper right corner?  Swap backspace and backslash and then split that 2u key into backslash and grave.   

+1

[abjr]

Have you considered the HHKB approach for the upper right corner?  Swap backspace and backslash and then split that 2u key into backslash and grave. 

I don't see why that couldn't be an option. I was more curious about people's opinion on the bottom right corner

I was trying to avoid using too many odd shaped keys while cramming the arrow keys in. I guess a 1.75 Shift is not too bad, although I don't think the 1u Ctrl/Alt are that common, but I guess you could map the modifiers however you wanted.

[inanis]

I'm not an expert at layout design by any stretch of the imagination, but with no FN the right side I feel like it might limit the function layer layout. I'd almost rather have FN replace the right ctrl (cause I can't say I EVER use that key) and then you can make the arrow keys pgup/pgdown/home/end on the function layer.

[abjr]

...  then you can make the arrow keys pgup/pgdown/home/end on the function layer.

Yep. That was already planned in my head Thanks.

[inanis]

...  then you can make the arrow keys pgup/pgdown/home/end on the function layer.

Yep. That was already planned in my head Thanks.

If that is the case, I'm even more convinced that about put FN on the right side. One hand to access those function keys would be awesome. But maybe you have a lot of use for that right ctrl, so do what make sense for you!

[geniekid]

I like that you're not compromising on the inverted-T arrow cluster.  I also like that you've thought about the difficulty of finding caps for your layout.

If I was designing this layout for my workflow and I wanted to maintain your inverted-T arrow cluster I would turn Fn into Win, make the spacebar 7u, replace R-Alt with a 1.25u Fn and cut out R-Ctrl.  So -

Code: [Select]

1.25 Ctrl | 1.25 Win | 1.25 Alt | 7 Space | 1.25 Fn | 1 Left | 1 Down | 1 Right
Another variation might be

Code: [Select]

1.25 Ctrl | 1 Win | 1.25 Alt | 7 Space | 1.5 Fn | 1 Left | 1 Down | 1 Right

[Oobly]

I like that you're not compromising on the inverted-T arrow cluster.  I also like that you've thought about the difficulty of finding caps for your layout.

If I was designing this layout for my workflow and I wanted to maintain your inverted-T arrow cluster I would turn Fn into Win, make the spacebar 7u, replace R-Alt with a 1.25u Fn and cut out R-Ctrl.  So -

Code: [Select]

1.25 Ctrl | 1.25 Win | 1.25 Alt | 7 Space | 1.25 Fn | 1 Left | 1 Down | 1 Right
Another variation might be

Code: [Select]

1.25 Ctrl | 1 Win | 1.25 Alt | 7 Space | 1.5 Fn | 1 Left | 1 Down | 1 Right

I like your first layout for the bottom row, however if you type European languages regularly you need to have a right Alt, since it's actually Alt Gr which is used for special characters on many keys. So, for European users I would suggest keeping the button sizes as is in the original layout but having:

Code: [Select]

1.25 Ctrl | 1.25 Win/Fn | 1.25 Alt | 6.25 Space | 1 AltGr | 1 Fn | 1 Left | 1 Down | 1 Right
And for users who don't need AltGr:

Code: [Select]

1.25 Ctrl | 1.25 Win/Fn | 1.25 Alt | 7 Space | 1.25 Fn | 1 Left | 1 Down | 1 Right
I do however have a problem with the main layout: I would find the right Shift awkward. I use right Shift almost exclusively for typing capital letters and I would be hitting your one right on the right hand edge, with my finger partly off the key. I could probably get used to it, though.

Also, for text editing, if you have to press Fn to get Home and End anyway there's not a lot of benefit to having the arrows on the default layer, since it's easier to hold Fn the whole time while using arrows and home and end than to press it only when you want those functions, so for my own primary use case for default layer arrows, I wouldn't get enough benefit from the design to warrant the design I think. But that's speculation until I've actually tried it.

[jacobolus]

If you can DIY, I highly recommend smaller spacebars. :-)

[IvanIvanovich]

Why not just get a Pure Pro then? Also it's shift row is smarter when using 2 units left shift so you can gain an extra key and not have any character key on the wrong side of right shift.

[ConscienceDrop]

Bottom right needs a fn imo

[orangeju1ce]

Caps lock - > ctrl.

[abjr]

I do however have a problem with the main layout: I would find the right Shift awkward.

This is my main concern also. The muscle memory might be to hard to overcome.

If that is the case, I'm even more convinced that about put FN on the right side. One hand to access those function keys would be awesome. But maybe you have a lot of use for that right ctrl, so do what make sense for you!

Those keys would be configurable in the firmware. I never thought about the function key on the right. To be honest I don't have much experience with them. I figured I'd be hitting Fn with my left hand and the other key with my right. And yes, the right control does seem mostly useless.

If you can DIY, I highly recommend smaller space bars. :-)

I still can't figure out a nice way to cram in the arrows with shorter space bars.

Why not just get a Pure Pro then? Also it's shift row is smarter when using 2 units left shift so you can gain an extra key and not have any character key on the wrong side of right shift.

That seems to be about the only way to fit the dedicated arrows in cleanly although I don't like the non-standard size space bar. The 1u right shift also might be a challenge for me! The shorter left shift throws off the stagger a bit. I'm not sure how that would affect me.

Bottom right needs a fn imo

That does seem to be the consensus.

Thanks to everyone who provided feedback. I just figure if I'm going to try a DIY keyboard, I might as well try something different.

[user 18]

I would be fine with the fn on the bottom left, but I also need a winkey/super key on that side. I'd get rid of the right side ctrl, and make that fn, and make the left side fn into a super key instead.

I'd also swap the locations of your right shift and the /? key, because I basically never use right shift and that keeps all my alphas as they ought to be. When I do use right shift, I find I tend to hit it near the outside anyway, so this keeps all my muscle memory for the 60% cluster intact, as well as adding arrows. That's more a personal thing than an actual critique though.

[Tiramisuu]

With a fn key on either side and a programmable keyboard @ arrow keys are just a space filler.

[Hypersphere]

Whatever works for you is the right answer.

For me, I finally found that the best 60% was already available as the HHKB Pro 2. Before actually trying it, I thought I would not like the Backspace above the Return/Enter and that I would miss dedicated arrow keys. After trying it, I adjusted almost immediately, and now I remap all my other keyboards to as close to the HHKB/Mac layout as possible.

In general, the standard layout of the lower right corner with such a long Right Shift is crying out for modification. I use Right Shift a lot, but I don't need anything nearly as large as the standard Right Shift; 1x is too small, but 1.25x or larger is fine. I like the idea of shortening the Right Shift and putting Fn next to it. However, if you absolutely want dedicated arrow keys, then putting an arrow key to the right of Right Shift is fine as well.