60% board without special keys?

[HapticBovinator]

Calling all 60% fans!

I started with a full size mech board (cherry g80-3000),  moved to a tkl board (filco majestouch 2 ninja), but again I am getting the itch to switch.

I would like something smaller, probably 60%. I love that the filco is smaller, but it is noticably heavier than my full size board (due to plate mounting and heavy duty build).

I am hoping for, if possible, a 60% keyboard with all standard keys on bottom row (us ansi) with control, win, alt, space, alt, win, menu, control from left to right. Ideally it should be as light as possible for travel and have a white case.

Can the Poker 2 or another 60% fit the bill? I can pay a "normal" price for a cherry mech board, but not higher than say, $150. Also I had a baby and am getting rid of my soldering station due to lack of space and time, so I am not interested in any kind of diy kit. I am an experienced developer wrt microcontrollers so programming for customization is no problem.

Recommendations? (Currently I use browns with o rings, and would consider reds, but that's it.)

[absyrd]

Answered your own question perfectly.

Poker II. Great standard layout as well as programmable.

[Freebird]

Poker II all the way buddy, I am using one now and I love it!

[HapticBovinator]

Ok so with poker 2 I don't need a fn key or anything like that?

[Freebird]

Ok so with poker 2 I don't need a fn key or anything like that?

Well you have a function layer to be able to use things like a function row, arrow keys, pge up etc.

This pic shows some of them:


It took me probably only a few days to get used to where everything is and in all honesty I actually prefer this to using a full/tkl setup. It feels more efficient to me.

[pichu23]

Poker II was my first 60%.
FaceW is my second 60%.
Loved it ever since.

[HapticBovinator]

I was hoping to not have to have a fn key.

I might be able to live with it at the bottom right, with alt, win, control to the left.

But really I'd prefer the modifier layout I described in my first post (like on my filco). That's one of the reasons I didn't want the camo filco. I have no interest in a fn key.

Edit: I use Linux and can modify the key map at the OS level; this is preferable to me in case I have to use another keyboard. I don't want to develop muscle memory for anything non standard (fn keys etc.) Vim 4 evar!

[ynrozturk]

You get used to it really quickly and don't even think about it after a day or two. Poker II is your best bet I'd say.

[Roibhilin]

I was hoping to not have to have a fn key.

I might be able to live with it at the bottom right, with alt, win, control to the left.

But really I'd prefer the modifier layout I described in my first post (like on my filco). That's one of the reasons I didn't want the camo filco. I have no interest in a fn key.

Edit: I use Linux and can modify the key map at the OS level; this is preferable to me in case I have to use another keyboard. I don't want to develop muscle memory for anything non standard (fn keys etc.) Vim 4 evar!

you basically need a fn key for 60% keyboards or you'd just have alphas+modifiers, the poker ii integrates everything else in the least intrusive way imo and it's probably your best bet

[spiceBar]

I was hoping to not have to have a fn key.

I might be able to live with it at the bottom right, with alt, win, control to the left.

But really I'd prefer the modifier layout I described in my first post (like on my filco). That's one of the reasons I didn't want the camo filco. I have no interest in a fn key.

Edit: I use Linux and can modify the key map at the OS level; this is preferable to me in case I have to use another keyboard. I don't want to develop muscle memory for anything non standard (fn keys etc.) Vim 4 evar!

You are an advanced computer user, apparently. I'm not sure how you expected to be able to do without an Fn key!?

Puzzled. 

[hwood34]

Yeah, don't really see how you expect to do anything without an fn key on a 60% considering that removes lots of keys. The KBT pure has a similar layout, except with a dedicated "~" key next to the shift

[Oobly]

GON NerD60... completely programmable and customisable physical layout. You can have the bottom row like you described and no Fn layer if you like, although I think it's gonna be hard to live without any F-keys, arrows and edit keys, print screen, etc..

It's a pity you're getting rid of your soldering station as it'd be a LOT cheaper to buy a NerD60 PCB and put the switches and diodes in yourself than to buy a completed board.

If having just the left side of the bottom row standard is enough, the Poker II is a great choice. The KBT Pure has a great layout, especially the Fn layer, but they're hard to find new any more.

[HapticBovinator]

Well I suppose i might be able to modify it.

I don't need the functionality because in Linux you can typically bind whatever keys you want, EG.  For window management. Most of the time I'm in the terminal, with terminal vim. I use pentadactyl in firefox, and a little eog for EG.  Pdfs.

Anyway, can you move the fn key all the way to the right? Any board with that would be the best.

[spiceBar]

Well I suppose i might be able to modify it.

I don't need the functionality because in Linux you can typically bind whatever keys you want, EG.  For window management. Most of the time I'm in the terminal, with terminal vim. I use pentadactyl in firefox, and a little eog for EG.  Pdfs.

Anyway, can you move the fn key all the way to the right? Any board with that would be the best.

Linux & Mac user here.

It's actually not that easy to rebind keys in Linux. I've run into problems when trying to rebind modifiers and arrow keys. For example keys normally used as modifiers would not autorepeat when bound to arrows. It's a mess, you cannot get away with just modifying the ".Xmodmap" file.

Anyway you cannot do without an Fn key. You need all the functionality of a TKL, or sooner or later you get stuck. Even if you spend most of your time in a terminal, as soon as you need to use the GUI, you need the arrows, PgUp/PgDn, and Home/End. I understand you use few programs and you have remapped the keys for these programs, but you cannot assume that you will not have to use some other program in which you will need the standard navigation keys.

Or maybe you want to remap key assignments in all the programs you use? It's quite hard. Personally I use a lot of different programs and I would find it impossible to remap all of them. And to remap the arrows to which keys? IJKL? And how do you type IJKL then?

Seriously, you need your keyboard to be able to generate the scancodes for the navigation keys, and to do that you need an Fn key.

On the Poker 2, which I think is your best choice, you cannot move the Fn key. It's located at the right of the right Alt key, that is where you normally find a Windows key on current standard keyboards. The key located immediately at the right of this Fn key is also reserved (it's the "Menu" key on current keyboards, and on the Poker 2 it's a key used to program the keyboard).

It turns out that these key are not frequently used, and it's easy to avoid using them completely, so generally it's not a problem.

[Oobly]

If you don't use the right hand side Win and Menu keys a lot, I would just get a Poker II. I find I actually never use those keys and I suspect the same is true for many people. In fact I find I use the left Ctrl and Alt exclusively. The only time I use right Alt is for AltGr when using Finnish layout. I could see the use case for the context menu key if you're using Windows without a mouse, but that's a rather rare situation. I prefer to have more useful functions there and put that kind of stuff on a Fn layer.

It's also nicer to bind keys at the hardware level (like in the Poker II) since it stays the same when you plug into other computers.

Personally, I would get a Poker II and program the Pure Fn layer into it for arrows and edit keys.

[Master of the Ocean]

KBP v60 

[yasuo]

hhkb suit for unix users )

[HapticBovinator]

Well thanks for all the advice.

WRT comments about various programs requiring certain keys (e.g. F11 for fullscreen), I can always rebind a key combination (such as super-G) to the missing key and the keypress will be generated. But this is only possible with a full complement of modifiers which aren't missing due to a hardware multiplexing strategy (i.e. "fn" and "pn" keys).

The Poker II seems great and I would get it in a heartbeat, except that I would be losing not one, but 2 precious modifiers on an already constrained layout. That is completely unacceptable and the worst of available choices given what I had asked for in the first post: _I_ _want_ _my_ _modifiers_!!!

Other keyboards have caught my eye, such as the Leopold 660M and the Keycool 84. These both however have a special purpose "fn" key either one or two keys to the right of the spacebar; as I want to use my modifiers with my middle and ring finger more than the weaker pinky. (US ANSI and Mac keyboards both get this one right.) (I have seen pictures of the Leopold with a couple of different positions for the "fn" key and couldn't determine what all the options were; if this were easier I'd be able to tell if it suited my purposes.)

It is a little more expensive, and perhaps not my ideal otherwise, but the Ducky Shine Mini has the 4 standard modifiers to the right of the spacebar, all standard 1.5x units wide; the only exception is that the Menu key has been swapped out for a special purpose key (for layout and LED programming).

The HHKB seems cool, but expensive, and I wouldn't be able to use cherry switches. (I have no interest in assembling a custom one with cherry switches as I stated above, otherwise I would probably buy the fully programmable 60% on Massdrop right now.)

Now if only bpiphany or somebody had some kind of replacement controller for one of these 60% boards... but for all I know none of them have a removable controller to begin with. Ahh well, first world problems.

[Oobly]

I don't get it... You don't lose any modifiers with the Poker II. The keys the Fn and Pn keys replace are a Super key and Context Menu. And you have the Super still on the left.

You can program the key combinations for Fn+key or Pn+key in hardware with the Poker II, so you're gaining functionality, not losing it. Sure, you lose one duplicate key and one unique, but you're gaining two unique modifiers which control hardware programmable layers that can even include full macros.

Just to inform, so you have more info for evaluating.

[spiceBar]

I don't get it... You don't lose any modifiers with the Poker II. The keys the Fn and Pn keys replace are a Super key and Context Menu. And you have the Super still on the left.

You can program the key combinations for Fn+key or Pn+key in hardware with the Poker II, so you're gaining functionality, not losing it. Sure, you lose one duplicate key and one unique, but you're gaining two unique modifiers which control hardware programmable layers that can even include full macros.

Just to inform, so you have more info for evaluating.

Yes, I don't get it either.

Clinging to his original idea of remapping modifiers in linux (which can be a pain anyway), I doubt the OP has given enough consideration to what we are saying.

[davkol]

Anyway you cannot do without an Fn key. You need all the functionality of a TKL, or sooner or later you get stuck.

XKB keymap like DreymaR's Extend layer is a piece of cake. Some stuff can be done on udev level.

Most people don't need SysRq; nav cluster is easy to either emulate on a software layer (see above), or just replace by Emacs-like bindings (e.g., Ctrl+A for Home, Ctrl+E for End); only Esc and perhaps F-keys (for switching ttys) could be a bit of an issue at times.

It turns out that these key are not frequently used, and it's easy to avoid using them completely, so generally it's not a problem.

You don't use them, other people do… as Compose, custom layer toggles or simply as designed.

[spiceBar]

Anyway you cannot do without an Fn key. You need all the functionality of a TKL, or sooner or later you get stuck.

XKB keymap like DreymaR's Extend layer is a piece of cake. Some stuff can be done on udev level.

Remapping key layers in linux is a huge pain. You have system files to modify all over the place, you may need to know the inner workings of DBus or udev, or even hack the keyboard driver at the source level. And you have to reboot every time you want to try a change.

I'm not trash talking linux by saying this. I have been using linux as my main OS since 2003.

We have not been able to build an implementation of SpaceFN for linux yet, for example.

I have tried various things, and there was always a problem.

On the other hand, implementing SpaceFN on Mac and Windows did not took more than half a day (using Karabiner and AHK, respectively).

Can you implement SpaceFN on linux?

If linux is so great and flexible with keyboard management, you should be able to, isn't it? Especially considering that it has really been a piece of cake on Mac and Windows.

[davkol]

Non sequitur.

Layers like in Neo or DreymaR's extended Colemak aren't a big deal in XKB. Messing with modifiers/compose is, but I don't see it as relevant to the OP. It's possible to implement dual-role keys either using some obscure X11 tool, there bugs though, or in udev—I know it's possible (I've seen 12 key "phone" keyboard done on udev level, including multi-tap and a few dual-role keys), although I'm not familiar with the current state of that part.

[spiceBar]

Non sequitur.

Layers like in Neo or DreymaR's extended Colemak aren't a big deal in XKB. Messing with modifiers/compose is, but I don't see it as relevant to the OP. It's possible to implement dual-role keys either using some obscure X11 tool, there bugs though, or in udev—I know it's possible (I've seen 12 key "phone" keyboard done on udev level, including multi-tap and a few dual-role keys), although I'm not familiar with the current state of that part.

I have tried several things, for example using X11's Xrecord extension, because a tool that turns the Ctrl key into a dual role modifier was based on it. With this tool, pressing Ctrl together with another key does the classical Ctrl-stuff, while pressing then releasing Ctrl generates Esc.

I thought this was a great start, so I tried to modify that tool to do the same with Space instead of Ctrl.

It turns out it cannot work, because Xrecord allows you to spy on every key that is pressed or released, and it also allows you to create fake key presses. But you cannot remove a key press from the input queue.

So I could detect that Space was pressed with another key, I could generate a new key, but I couldn't remove Space from the input queue.

It worked with Ctrl because Ctrl does not leave anything in the input queue, so there is nothing to remove when you generate something else.

I have run into other problems whe trying to remap keys under linux. For example I tried to remap a modifier (I think it was the right Win key, which is called SUPER_L) to some character or to a navigation key. It turned out that the character would not autorepeat when the key is pressed and hold. That would require yet another change into a system file.

You may say it's not relevant to what the OP wants to do, but I want to point out that it is a mistake to assume that linux will allow you easily to remap keys. You routinely run into problems you had not foreseen.

Now good luck with this.

[xuanwumen]

noppoo nano 60% cherry mx red switch in white frame.

[davkol]

noppoo nano 60% cherry mx red switch in white frame.

I guess you've missed the right thread. Nano75 doesn't fit OP's requirement for no Fn key.

You may say it's not relevant to what the OP wants to do, but I want to point out that it is a mistake to assume that linux will allow you easily to remap keys. You routinely run into problems you had not foreseen.

It works fine for the basic stuff.  I will probably comment on the dual-role keys in a different thread, because it's off-topic here.

[spiceBar]

noppoo nano 60% cherry mx red switch in white frame.

Wow! Nice keyboard. I had never seen it before!

It has the 60% width, which is generally what we want in a 60% in order to have the mouse closer to the typing area, and no need for a dedicated Fn key for F1..F12. It even has separate backquote/tilde and Esc keys.

Thanks for posting it.

[Oobly]

noppoo nano 60% cherry mx red switch in white frame.

Wow! Nice keyboard. I had never seen it before!

It has the 60% width, which is generally what we want in a 60% in order to have the mouse closer to the typing area, and no need for a dedicated Fn key for F1..F12. It even has separate backquote/tilde and Esc keys.

Thanks for posting it.

Agreed... That's a very nice layout for a "60%" (I guess it'd be a 70%?). Dedicated Esc, `~ and Del

[HapticBovinator]

Ok that Noppoo is hot.

Still investigating options. I may have to cave into the fn key situation. Otherwise I will be using a TKL for life...when I only use half the keys lol. 

[Oobly]

Just thought I'd drop this in here:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=64916.0

BOOM!

Poker II with standard layout in da house! Just flash the firmware, set DIP switches all to ON position and you no longer have Fn or Pn, but every key functions as on a "normal" keyboard (Win, Menu, Alt, etc...)

[HapticBovinator]

BOOM!

Poker II with standard layout in da house!

Ok I have to change my pants. Thank you, this was the news I have been waiting for.