Author Topic: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?  (Read 5922 times)

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Offline Aer Fixus

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[eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« on: Sun, 26 October 2014, 14:01:53 »
This confuses me a bit. I have never ever seen a Model M bigfoot (only Model F). At first glance, this would seem to be an incorrect title for the listing, however the label on the keyboard would like to say otherwise.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251690785334

The label style is correct compared to webwit's bigfoot, but his still says Model F (although a 139 part number and a 1994 date for a Model F is interesting in and of itself. I never realized Lexmark continued making them so late).

On the other side of things, the box says 4176191 which makes me think the keyboard's label is wrong as that is a number used by older, 80s bigfoot.

So, is it mislabeled or is this an actual Model M bigfoot? I'm betting on a mislabel, but there's only one way to find out.

Also, would this keyboard have been manufactured for 1996 or would it have been refurbished or pulled from long-remaining stock? Because if they actually went and made this keyboard from scratch in 1996, that would be a really interesting Model F to own. (Usually, there is an inspection sticker on the inside that tells assembly dates. I've had boards vary by a few years. If this was an odd ball, I could believe a larger span)
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 26 October 2014, 16:19:21 »
I think it's an M based on the plate you can see through the holes in the back housing.

Would be interesting to see the internals.

Offline Puddsy

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 26 October 2014, 16:27:30 »
it definitely looks like an M, that's for sure
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Offline Vizir

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 26 October 2014, 20:37:07 »

Offline Aer Fixus

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 26 October 2014, 23:07:50 »
A previous find but labeled F http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/ibm-model-f-1397950-bigfoot-t158.html

I linked to that page in the OP. The point still stands: is it an M or an F?

To me, and from what I can see of the plate, it looks identical to webwit's (the one in the link), which is an F. The single letter difference is what I'm questioning. If it said F, I wouldn't have posted it here as it isn't all that great of a price for a bigfoot IMO.

If it's actually an M, that would make it so much more interesting. That would mean that Lexmark made a barrel plate and a membrane (and possibly a controller) just for this keyboard, which is definitely a limited run (we've never seen one previously and they aren't like the 4704 boards that get obsessively recycled because of their work environment). That's what makes me think it's a mislabeled F. I don't think Lexmark would go through that trouble just to make an M variation of an older model instead of providing new-old stock. But maybe they did and maybe it's an incredibly rare board.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 26 October 2014, 23:36:16 »
A previous find but labeled F http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/ibm-model-f-1397950-bigfoot-t158.html

I linked to that page in the OP. The point still stands: is it an M or an F?

To me, and from what I can see of the plate, it looks identical to webwit's (the one in the link), which is an F. The single letter difference is what I'm questioning. If it said F, I wouldn't have posted it here as it isn't all that great of a price for a bigfoot IMO.

If it's actually an M, that would make it so much more interesting. That would mean that Lexmark made a barrel plate and a membrane (and possibly a controller) just for this keyboard, which is definitely a limited run (we've never seen one previously and they aren't like the 4704 boards that get obsessively recycled because of their work environment). That's what makes me think it's a mislabeled F. I don't think Lexmark would go through that trouble just to make an M variation of an older model instead of providing new-old stock. But maybe they did and maybe it's an incredibly rare board.

there's a chance they used the plate from the F version, like the M screenreader (tenkeypad) and 50-key used F parts, and just used a new membrane (and it looks like backplate based on the pictures but it's hard to see for sure)

Offline Touch_It

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 27 October 2014, 09:44:30 »
Someone better go ahead and buy this so we can learn all there is to know about it :).


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Offline Melvang

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 27 October 2014, 10:33:24 »
Someone better go ahead and buy this so we can learn all there is to know about it :).

If I had the spare cash and didn't already have an F bigfoot heading my way I would go for it. 

My guess is the seller doesn't know about F's and just labeled it as an M because its an old IBM that clicks.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 27 October 2014, 12:16:03 »
Someone better go ahead and buy this so we can learn all there is to know about it :).

If I had the spare cash and didn't already have an F bigfoot heading my way I would go for it. 

My guess is the seller doesn't know about F's and just labeled it as an M because its an old IBM that clicks.

it says "model M' on the back.

I think it's really interesting to see that such a tiny difference can be huge. We all want to know what's up with it!

Offline 0100010

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 27 October 2014, 13:47:44 »
My guess would be a fake sticker.
  Quoting me causes a posting error that you need to ignore.

Offline Vizir

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 27 October 2014, 22:16:40 »
A previous find but labeled F http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/ibm-model-f-1397950-bigfoot-t158.html

I linked to that page in the OP. The point still stands: is it an M or an F?


in my hurry i forgot that you did link to the same post i did. my bad.

My guess would be a fake sticker.

this would be my guess

Offline REVENGE

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 00:43:01 »
My guess would be a fake sticker.
It should be a Model F. My 1996 Lexmark 1387033 was also labeled 'Model M'. Actually, if this were a little cheaper, I'd definitely pick it up. The Lexmark Fs feel very very nice.
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Offline dgreekstallion

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 15:23:34 »
Wow--- really interesting.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 16:03:28 »
My guess would be a fake sticker.
It should be a Model F. My 1996 Lexmark 1387033 was also labeled 'Model M'. Actually, if this were a little cheaper, I'd definitely pick it up. The Lexmark Fs feel very very nice.

Can you post a photo of your backplate? I mean the curved one inside. This one looks different than what I usually expect to see in a model F.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 16:59:36 »
Do I remember Berserk Fan having a similar "F labeled as an M" recently?
"It turns out that for a decade, whenever Trump wanted to get a loan, or make a deal, he would inflate the value of his real estate. For instance, suggesting that his 11,000-square foot penthouse was a 30,000-square foot penthouse.
And the attorney general of New York knew that Trump's property values were inflated because when it came time to pay taxes, Trump undervalued the very same properties.
It was all part of a very sophisticated real estate practice known as “lying.”
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 17:22:04 »
Yeah, berzerkfan's is a 50-key.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62920.0

Offline REVENGE

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 17:53:03 »
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 20:17:30 »
You can see the photos; they officially do call it a Model M even though the internals are clearly F. And yes, it feels like an F.

My main reason for selling is that there are nasty gaps between keys ie not pure matrix layout. Can't use my two Model M 50 keys for a Model F ergodox. I want a pure matrix layout Model F, so I have to wait until Wcass decides to do the work. With the muted response from other geekhackers I'm afraid that might never happen.
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Offline Parak

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 20:42:12 »
You can see the photos; they officially do call it a Model M even though the internals are clearly F. And yes, it feels like an F.

My main reason for selling is that there are nasty gaps between keys ie not pure matrix layout. Can't use my two Model M 50 keys for a Model F ergodox. I want a pure matrix layout Model F, so I have to wait until Wcass decides to do the work. With the muted response from other geekhackers I'm afraid that might never happen.

Model M is a better description for that construction than F. Overall construction doesn't particularly matter to me, as in my head IBM buckling spring over capacitive pcb is F, IBM buckling spring over membrane is M. So these hybrids (as I strongly suspect the linked odd lexmark bigfoot is as well) are quite interesting from a collector point of view, but describing them as Fs is not exactly right, IMNSHO.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 21:30:59 »
I don't know what IBM's technical definitions are, but, to me, if there is a metal front plate and individual barrels it is an F, and if the barrel plate is a single piece of plastic, it is an M.
"It turns out that for a decade, whenever Trump wanted to get a loan, or make a deal, he would inflate the value of his real estate. For instance, suggesting that his 11,000-square foot penthouse was a 30,000-square foot penthouse.
And the attorney general of New York knew that Trump's property values were inflated because when it came time to pay taxes, Trump undervalued the very same properties.
It was all part of a very sophisticated real estate practice known as “lying.”
- Jon Stewart 2024-03-28

Offline Melvang

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 22:07:07 »
I don't know what IBM's technical definitions are, but, to me, if there is a metal front plate and individual barrels it is an F, and if the barrel plate is a single piece of plastic, it is an M.

I would say that is a pretty solid definition.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 23:01:20 »
I think the biggest difference from a user perspective is that berzerkfan's unit is 2kro, whereas the 4704-100 model F keybaords are NKRO. IBM seems to indicate that the F in model F stands for the capacitive flip plates (beam spring the capacitive element does nor flip) and the M in midel M stands for Membrane, the inclusion of which is one primary functional difference to the model F (the other being the integrated barrel frame/top plate).

It's established (by berzerkfan and others) that the primary difference in feel is from the difference in mounting plates.

This is what I was referring to when I said that IBM/Lexmark produced Model M versions of model Fs using primarily F hardware. One other example is the IBM screenreader. I have found one source that seems to indicate that IBM made a model F tenkey pad, though there are no pictures. The screenreader has similar construction as Berzerkfan's keyboards, which would corroborate this somewhat. Is this keyboard a third example? If so: it is quite rare.

Offline Parak

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 23:05:23 »
I don't know what IBM's technical definitions are, but, to me, if there is a metal front plate and individual barrels it is an F, and if the barrel plate is a single piece of plastic, it is an M.


So what would that make the Brother buckling spring boards? :D

Offline Aer Fixus

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 29 October 2014, 00:44:52 »
It's established (by berzerkfan and others) that the primary difference in feel is from the difference in mounting plates.

Good to know. A recent debate with fohat could have [potentially] been ended a couple posts sooner with this info...

Come to think of it, I have read berzerkfan's 50 key post where he explained the feel to be closer to an F than an M despite the membrane. It just didn't come to mind until now. I wonder if his 50 key has the rubber mat in it? It has the foam mat to hold the barrels in place. If it doesn't have it, I'd consider that a major contributor to why Ms feel/sound the way they do.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 29 October 2014, 00:46:38 »
It's established (by berzerkfan and others) that the primary difference in feel is from the difference in mounting plates.
Can you explain this a bit? My speculation is that the biggest difference in feel is the spring.

Offline Melvang

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 29 October 2014, 00:51:51 »
It's established (by berzerkfan and others) that the primary difference in feel is from the difference in mounting plates.
Can you explain this a bit? My speculation is that the biggest difference in feel is the spring.

Model M and F springs are the same to my knowledge.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 29 October 2014, 01:33:00 »
It's established (by berzerkfan and others) that the primary difference in feel is from the difference in mounting plates.
Can you explain this a bit? My speculation is that the biggest difference in feel is the spring.
That is a fair point, I will do some testing when my 50-key M arrives (2 wks).

Offline jacobolus

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 29 October 2014, 02:25:01 »
Model M and F springs are the same to my knowledge.
This is very obviously false, as you can tell by just looking at them side by side.

Offline berserkfan

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 29 October 2014, 03:12:29 »
It's established (by berzerkfan and others) that the primary difference in feel is from the difference in mounting plates.

Good to know. A recent debate with fohat could have [potentially] been ended a couple posts sooner with this info...

Come to think of it, I have read berzerkfan's 50 key post where he explained the feel to be closer to an F than an M despite the membrane. It just didn't come to mind until now. I wonder if his 50 key has the rubber mat in it? It has the foam mat to hold the barrels in place. If it doesn't have it, I'd consider that a major contributor to why Ms feel/sound the way they do.


My former 50-key (just sold it) had the mat, and yes both top and bottom plates are steel as proven by kmiller's fridge magnets sticking to them (thanks kmiller!). So they are definitely capacitative buckling springs, because what makes the F work is the, well, capacitative nature to hold a charge.

I suspect they over produced model F internals and found them hard to sell so decided to cut costs and sell with plastic casings instead.

Sold it at much less than I think it's worth. I hope the buyer can make something good out of it instead of flipping it on ebay for a profit.

AND I AM STILL HOPING THAT MORE PEOPLE WHO WANT MODEL F MATRIX LAYOUTS WILL SHOUT OUT TO WCASS AND HIS AWESOME TEAM! I CAN'T BE THE ONLY ONE IN THE WORLD?
« Last Edit: Wed, 29 October 2014, 03:16:50 by berserkfan »
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Offline fanpeople

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 29 October 2014, 03:50:28 »
It's established (by berzerkfan and others) that the primary difference in feel is from the difference in mounting plates.

Good to know. A recent debate with fohat could have [potentially] been ended a couple posts sooner with this info...

Come to think of it, I have read berzerkfan's 50 key post where he explained the feel to be closer to an F than an M despite the membrane. It just didn't come to mind until now. I wonder if his 50 key has the rubber mat in it? It has the foam mat to hold the barrels in place. If it doesn't have it, I'd consider that a major contributor to why Ms feel/sound the way they do.


My former 50-key (just sold it) had the mat, and yes both top and bottom plates are steel as proven by kmiller's fridge magnets sticking to them (thanks kmiller!). So they are definitely capacitative buckling springs, because what makes the F work is the, well, capacitative nature to hold a charge.

I suspect they over produced model F internals and found them hard to sell so decided to cut costs and sell with plastic casings instead.

Sold it at much less than I think it's worth. I hope the buyer can make something good out of it instead of flipping it on ebay for a profit.

I hope your not talking about this board, its staying put with me for a long time...

81083-0

Offline REVENGE

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 29 October 2014, 05:43:20 »
It's established (by berzerkfan and others) that the primary difference in feel is from the difference in mounting plates.
Can you explain this a bit? My speculation is that the biggest difference in feel is the spring.

Model M and F springs are the same to my knowledge.
They are not the same, different diameter and number of turns.

Do the M/F hybrids use M hammers and springs or F hammers and springs?
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 29 October 2014, 06:48:26 »
It's established (by berzerkfan and others) that the primary difference in feel is from the difference in mounting plates.

Good to know. A recent debate with fohat could have [potentially] been ended a couple posts sooner with this info...

Come to think of it, I have read berzerkfan's 50 key post where he explained the feel to be closer to an F than an M despite the membrane. It just didn't come to mind until now. I wonder if his 50 key has the rubber mat in it? It has the foam mat to hold the barrels in place. If it doesn't have it, I'd consider that a major contributor to why Ms feel/sound the way they do.


My former 50-key (just sold it) had the mat, and yes both top and bottom plates are steel as proven by kmiller's fridge magnets sticking to them (thanks kmiller!). So they are definitely capacitative buckling springs, because what makes the F work is the, well, capacitative nature to hold a charge.

I suspect they over produced model F internals and found them hard to sell so decided to cut costs and sell with plastic casings instead.

Sold it at much less than I think it's worth. I hope the buyer can make something good out of it instead of flipping it on ebay for a profit.

I hope your not talking about this board, its staying put with me for a long time...

(Attachment Link)

Hey that was fast!

Looks like you really love it!

That said, are you up to sharing some technical expertise with the guy who bought my 50 key today? I'll let him know. As a seller I hate to sell people things that they can't use.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 29 October 2014, 07:18:01 »

They are not the same, different diameter and number of turns.

Do the M/F hybrids use M hammers and springs or F hammers and springs?


They function in entirely different ways.
"It turns out that for a decade, whenever Trump wanted to get a loan, or make a deal, he would inflate the value of his real estate. For instance, suggesting that his 11,000-square foot penthouse was a 30,000-square foot penthouse.
And the attorney general of New York knew that Trump's property values were inflated because when it came time to pay taxes, Trump undervalued the very same properties.
It was all part of a very sophisticated real estate practice known as “lying.”
- Jon Stewart 2024-03-28

Offline Parak

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 29 October 2014, 07:45:03 »
My former 50-key (just sold it) had the mat, and yes both top and bottom plates are steel as proven by kmiller's fridge magnets sticking to them (thanks kmiller!). So they are definitely capacitative buckling springs, because what makes the F work is the, well, capacitative nature to hold a charge.

Erm. Wat.

The plates have no direct effect on the functionality of a capacitive board, and it's theoretically feasible to do away with them in a different capsense design (not in original IBM). Their exact functionality deals with having a sufficiently large ground capacitance (and shielding) or something to that effect - dfj/HaaTa/xwhatsit would be the experts on that. Anyway, the TLDR of actual thing that creates a change in capacitance is the mildly conductive carbon infused flippy in Fs coming in range of the PCB pads with certain voltage (the larger the better) running through it. The resulting value is sensed through one of the pads and compared against the stored values.

The 50 key that I saw the pictures of had a membrane ribbon coming out of the plates, which makes it a regular switched matrix like any M, and not capacitive.

any mistakes are due to me still being asleep
« Last Edit: Wed, 29 October 2014, 08:01:02 by Parak »

Offline dorkvader

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 29 October 2014, 12:28:41 »
The 50 key that I saw the pictures of had a membrane ribbon coming out of the plates, which makes it a regular switched matrix like any M, and not capacitive.

any mistakes are due to me still being asleep

It's theoretically possible to do capacitive sensing with a membrane, but I doubt IBM employed it in that keyboard.

Offline Parak

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 29 October 2014, 15:11:57 »
The 50 key that I saw the pictures of had a membrane ribbon coming out of the plates, which makes it a regular switched matrix like any M, and not capacitive.

any mistakes are due to me still being asleep

It's theoretically possible to do capacitive sensing with a membrane, but I doubt IBM employed it in that keyboard.

Well, it's also theoretically possible for it to use induction sensing, but I'm not entertaining that possibility either for some reason :P

Offline Parak

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #36 on: Thu, 30 October 2014, 00:11:11 »
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13176014@N03/sets/72157648621502819/

TLDR: Lexmark refurbished relatively normal bigfoot. A few oddities to be described later sometime mostly of interest to collectors :P

Offline Hak Foo

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 30 October 2014, 00:14:07 »
The cable is ten years newer than the guts of the board it plugs into!
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 30 October 2014, 00:26:50 »
The cable is ten years newer than the guts of the board it plugs into!

Such is the nature of refurbishment.

Offline fanpeople

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Re: [eBay] A Model M Bigfoot?
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 30 October 2014, 00:55:06 »
It's established (by berzerkfan and others) that the primary difference in feel is from the difference in mounting plates.

Good to know. A recent debate with fohat could have [potentially] been ended a couple posts sooner with this info...

Come to think of it, I have read berzerkfan's 50 key post where he explained the feel to be closer to an F than an M despite the membrane. It just didn't come to mind until now. I wonder if his 50 key has the rubber mat in it? It has the foam mat to hold the barrels in place. If it doesn't have it, I'd consider that a major contributor to why Ms feel/sound the way they do.


My former 50-key (just sold it) had the mat, and yes both top and bottom plates are steel as proven by kmiller's fridge magnets sticking to them (thanks kmiller!). So they are definitely capacitative buckling springs, because what makes the F work is the, well, capacitative nature to hold a charge.

I suspect they over produced model F internals and found them hard to sell so decided to cut costs and sell with plastic casings instead.

Sold it at much less than I think it's worth. I hope the buyer can make something good out of it instead of flipping it on ebay for a profit.

I hope your not talking about this board, its staying put with me for a long time...

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Hey that was fast!

Looks like you really love it!

That said, are you up to sharing some technical expertise with the guy who bought my 50 key today? I'll let him know. As a seller I hate to sell people things that they can't use.

Yes of course if they need a hand, feel free to pass on my details.