Author Topic: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"  (Read 3155 times)

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Offline Sniping

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Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« on: Sun, 09 November 2014, 22:52:01 »
I'm going to start off by saying this: ripster's Topre fart theory is wrong because it doesn't explain why the "whistling" effect is only found on the Type-S. Slider friction is the only culprit.

I wrote a message to PFU about the whistle, and they said (in broken English) its purpose was to have "as small mechanical play as possible," but also recognized that "it has own some sliding noize".


Maybe they're just trying to evade the hassle of creating a solution, but the whistle may actually be intentional. It makes sense that a tighter fitting stem would cause keys to wobble less, but at a cost.

Offline Sniping

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Re: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 09 November 2014, 22:56:30 »
In other Topre news, Coolermaster is bringing the heat with sub-$175 pricing on the Novatouch at Amazon right now.

Offline DasHHKBProM

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Re: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 09 November 2014, 22:58:10 »
one key whistles on the type s i got a few days ago [,] 7/14 manufacture date
I figure a couple passes of high grit sandpaper / krytox on the stem could easily remedy this

Offline nubbinator

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Re: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 09 November 2014, 23:11:05 »
In other Topre news, Coolermaster is bringing the heat with sub-$175 pricing on the Novatouch at Amazon right now.

*cough*Type Heaven*cough*

When you cut costs and go with cheap caps, you can afford it.

Offline byker

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Re: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 09 November 2014, 23:13:54 »
In other Topre news, Coolermaster is bringing the heat with sub-$175 pricing on the Novatouch at Amazon right now.

*cough*Type Heaven*cough*

When you cut costs and go with cheap caps, you can afford it.

My biggest dilemma is deciding between Type S and novatouch sliders.

Offline Sniping

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Re: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 09 November 2014, 23:38:20 »
In other Topre news, Coolermaster is bringing the heat with sub-$175 pricing on the Novatouch at Amazon right now.

*cough*Type Heaven*cough*

When you cut costs and go with cheap caps, you can afford it.

I don't like the sound of the Type Heaven. This might just be from the keycaps, but replacements are expensive.

The lowest price for the Type Heaven was slightly under $150, and at $168, the Novatouch isn't very far off right now. I like that the Novatouch brings something unique to the table, whereas the Type Heaven only has the purpose of cutting cost on a Topre keyboard.

Edit: wait, why did i just derail my own thread
« Last Edit: Sun, 09 November 2014, 23:45:01 by Sniping »

Offline Oobly

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Re: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 10 November 2014, 09:17:32 »
It's not slider friction, it's tighter tolerance on the sliders allowing them to make an almost airtight seal. The air needs to escape to somewhere from under the stem when you press the key. they really should have addressed this by adding pressure relief holes in the sliders or case.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Sniping

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Re: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 10 November 2014, 09:43:44 »
It's not slider friction, it's tighter tolerance on the sliders allowing them to make an almost airtight seal. The air needs to escape to somewhere from under the stem when you press the key. they really should have addressed this by adding pressure relief holes in the sliders or case.

This doesn't explain why you only find this issue on certain keys. If there was some sort of seal created then it would affect all the switches.

I'm like 99% sure it's slider friction.
« Last Edit: Mon, 10 November 2014, 09:49:31 by Sniping »

Offline Flyersfan1

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Re: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 10 November 2014, 09:48:02 »
It's not slider friction, it's tighter tolerance on the sliders allowing them to make an almost airtight seal. The air needs to escape to somewhere from under the stem when you press the key. they really should have addressed this by adding pressure relief holes in the sliders or case.

This doesn't explain why you only find this issue on certain keys. If your theory was true then all keys would whistle. If there was some sort of seal created then it would affect all the switches.

I'm like 99% sure it's slider friction.
I do think this is more plausible since not all Type-s' exhibit this problem, and it's more common in newer models, can anyone who has owned a Type-S for a few months with regular use comment on whether or not the noise has reduced, or gone away completely?
« Last Edit: Mon, 10 November 2014, 09:50:05 by Flyersfan1 »
Quote from: Photekq
i know people who think salt is spicy

Offline Sniping

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Re: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 10 November 2014, 09:55:20 »
It's not slider friction, it's tighter tolerance on the sliders allowing them to make an almost airtight seal. The air needs to escape to somewhere from under the stem when you press the key. they really should have addressed this by adding pressure relief holes in the sliders or case.

This doesn't explain why you only find this issue on certain keys. If your theory was true then all keys would whistle. If there was some sort of seal created then it would affect all the switches.

I'm like 99% sure it's slider friction.
I do think this is more plausible since not all Type-s' exhibit this problem and it's more common in newer models, can anyone who has owned a Type-S for a few months with regular use comment on whether or not the noise has reduced, or gone away completely?

I discussed it very briefly at meetups, and people agree that it seems to quiet down over time. IMO, the keyboard should be broken in for around a year and then lubed for smoothness. Some of the keys have a scratchiness that reminds me a lot of stock MX linear switches.

Offline saturnotaku

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Re: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 10 November 2014, 10:07:07 »
Concern about getting a version that whistles was the main reason I went with a standard HHKB. It's discouraging that keyboards made as late as July of this year are still exhibiting the issue. While the standard Topre switch sounds cool, I think it was proving a bit too loud for my co-workers so I went ahead and dental banded it. So far, this is proving to be an ideal situation. The keyboard is much quieter, yet IMO it sounds even better than the Type-S with an at worst minimal loss of feel.

I can understand why some wouldn't want to go down this road, but the mod wasn't that difficult to do. The worst part was sliding the bands over the plungers without the bands getting twisted, which wasn't easy considering I have stubby, fat fingers. All in all, the process took about 90 minutes, including removing and replacing the keycaps.

I have a couple tips for those who want to tackle this job:

1) When removing the caps, place them in a container or on a table in the order that they appear on the keyboard. This is more critical if you have blank caps since the HHKB uses several different profiles. It makes reassembly go that much quicker.
2) Use caution when removing and replacing the ribbon cable that connects the two PCBs. It takes a bit of jolt to get the cable out, but putting it back was a bit harder. I used a gentle squeeze of some needle-nose pliers to make sure it was secure.
3) When popping out the plungers (I used the blunt end of a small screwdriver), you will hear a snap and tiny pieces of plastic may spill onto your work surface. This small bit of damage has no impact on the ability to put the slides back in place or on the overall performance of the keyboard.
4) The screws holding the main PCB to the case are all the same size, so you don't need to worry about putting them back in a specific order.
5) When you've put everything back together, plug the keyboard in and test it before putting the caps back on. There's a chance something might have shifted and the springs and/or domes might not be sitting properly. This was not an issue when I modded by HHKB, but I've read about it happening to others.

As a reference, these were the bands I used. I'm very pleased with the results. Love the sound, love the feel, my bank account is happier versus buying a Type-S, and it doesn't whistle at all (and no need for a "break in" period that could potentially go away much later).

Offline AuRinBei

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Re: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 10 November 2014, 11:39:23 »
It's not slider friction, it's tighter tolerance on the sliders allowing them to make an almost airtight seal. The air needs to escape to somewhere from under the stem when you press the key. they really should have addressed this by adding pressure relief holes in the sliders or case.

This doesn't explain why you only find this issue on certain keys. If there was some sort of seal created then it would affect all the switches.

I'm like 99% sure it's slider friction.

It wouldn't necessarily affect all the switches. They won't be perfect clones of each other, and maybe PFU is pushing too the limits of their tolerances too much, so that a few switches form a seal where others don't.
87u || Poker 2

Offline ConscienceDrop

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Re: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 10 November 2014, 11:45:03 »
In other Topre news, Coolermaster is bringing the heat with sub-$175 pricing on the Novatouch at Amazon right now.

not even a Topre user but cheaping out while buying topre is:




Offline Hypersphere

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Re: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 10 November 2014, 12:26:45 »
A well made product should not require "breaking in". It ought to work properly right out of the box. This principle should apply equally to such diverse products as shoes, cars, computers, and keyboards. However, this is a normative statement, and the fact is that some products will require some degree of breaking in, owing to imperfections in manufacturing.

Regarding the Type-S whistle, it seems plausible to me that this arises from close tolerances between the slider and switch housing. As others have surmised, the displaced air has to escape somewhere, and air rapidly forced through a narrow space creates sound, such as a whistle. In addition, because the components of Topre switches are formed from polymers that are heated and allowed to cool rather than being precision machined, tolerances are going to vary somewhat within a given population of switches. Therefore, some switches may whistle while others may not.

My new Type-S arrived last week. It is Rev A1 dated 2014-07. I have not noticed any whistle sounds. However, the keys sound/feel "scratchy" like some contemporary Cherry mx switches. Moreover, some of the switches sound/feel the same as the corresponding ones in my standard HHKB Pro 2; this is most noticeable in the Right Shift and to some degree in the other large keys.

Overall, I am not sure yet if I prefer the Type-S over the conventional HHKB. Although I do not like the return stroke "clack" of the standard model, and the clack is considerably attenuated in the Type-S, the key action feels better to me in the standard version. In fact, my Typeracer speed and accuracy scores are better with a standard HHKB than they are with a Type-S. I also like the fact that the standard version is available in black -- I like a black case with black mods and white or blue alphanumeric keys.

I have been tempted to try either the dental band mod of the foam pad mod to create a DIY silient HHKB, but I have seen conflicting reports on how these mods affect key travel.

The best sound/feel I have encountered in a Topre-switch keyboard is with the RF 87ub 55g. This board has a luxurious solidity to it, but I miss the 60% form factor and great layout of the HHKB. However, I can partially compensate by using software to remap the RF to something close to the HHKB layout, but I would still prefer to have the 60% form factor -- the F-keys, arrow keys, and other navigation keys are largely wasted space for me.

I haven't tried a silent RF, but the standard 55g RF is sufficiently quiet that I do not feel much need to get or create a silent version.


Offline DasHHKBProM

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Re: Update on HHKB Type-S "whistle"
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 13 November 2014, 14:51:52 »
as mentioned earlier I'm a new owner of a type-s that was manufactured on 7/2014, i WAS having the whistle issue with the comma key [,]

i managed to remedy this problem using this approach:

repetitively mashing @ [ 45 degree angle / down, motion ]   ---->[ , key]<----  with the index finger of each of my hands, preforming this many mashes in 5 sec: (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) after doing that for maybe 30-40 min total(not all at one time)

This process completely eliminated the whistle sound in that comma key!

so in my finding: I came to the conclusion (in my case)it was friction, and what I did essentially "sanded", polished or wore out the stem slightly, aiding in eliminating the "whistle" sound from the rubbing of the topre stem against plastic.

tldr pretend you're breaking a diamond in mortal kombat and the whistle key is the action button