Author Topic: Ergonomic mechanical keyboard  (Read 26835 times)

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Offline wellington1869

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Ergonomic mechanical keyboard
« Reply #60 on: Thu, 13 August 2009, 11:31:19 »
btw lal, i wound up putting the trackpoint nipple back on my endurapro. It was pretty easy to put it back in.
For some reason its not bothering me as much as it used to, maybe my fingers have just gotten used to it from my ultranav keyboard. I rather like having it now.

must be the ultranav that influenced me.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline lal

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« Reply #61 on: Thu, 13 August 2009, 12:01:58 »
Interesting.  Maybe I should try an Endurapro again.  Aah, those times ;)

No, seriously, it's tenkeyless exclusively now for me.  I have 2 M minis, the Filco mini with blues and soon another with white XMs.  All very tactile and very clicky.  When I have some (I mean, a lot) cash over and I'm bored I'll maybe get a HHKBP, just to be one with cup rubber once in my life :)
BS: Customizer, Model Ms; Alps: CSK-2101, FK-2002, AT-101 (SGI & Dell), MCK-860, FKBN87Z/EB; Cherry: Poker X, FKBN87MC/EB, WY60, G80-3000, G84-4100, TDV 5010

Offline Jcooper01

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Ergonomic mechanical keyboard
« Reply #62 on: Sun, 06 September 2009, 17:57:08 »
So I just wanted to post a quick follow-up to my prior post about the Northgate Evolution.  Unfortunately, I think that it has aggravated my carpal tunnel (the opposite effect I was going for, obviously).  I think I need to switch back to the MS Natural 4000.  The keyforce on Alps switches is hurting me more than I anticipated.  If anyone has any other ideas, I'd be grateful (essentially a MS Natural 4000 with Cherry browns).

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #63 on: Sun, 06 September 2009, 18:02:45 »
Quote from: Jcooper01;115376
So I just wanted to post a quick follow-up to my prior post about the Northgate Evolution.  Unfortunately, I think that it has aggravated my carpal tunnel (the opposite effect I was going for, obviously).  I think I need to switch back to the MS Natural 4000.  The keyforce on Alps switches is hurting me more than I anticipated.  If anyone has any other ideas, I'd be grateful (essentially a MS Natural 4000 with Cherry browns).


I'd just go to a Compaq MX11800, and if you aren't still hurting, don't worry about an "ergonomic" layout.
Pointing devices- CH Products DT255 (With Lapis Lazuli ball), Razer Salmosa, Logitech MX400
Buckling Springs - IBM Model M 1391401 (1987) & IBM Model F AT
Cherry MX Blue Switches - iOne Scorpius M10 "otaku"(2009) & OCN-branded Ducky keyboard
Cherry MX Brown Switches - Compaq MX11800 & Cherry G80-8963LUBUS-2 (MX8100) & Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless)

Cherry MX Black Switches -  US Micro Products Metal Keyboard USMP-KX065-TB-USB-A
Fake Cherry MX White Switches - Qtronix Scorpius 32 keypad &  Chicony KB-5191
White round SMK Switches - Gold VTech label keyboard
SMK blue Monterrey Switches - Chicony KB-5181
Damped tactile ALPS - Apple AEKII
Blue NEC Switches - NEC APC-H412


Quote from: bigpook;129625
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Offline Jcooper01

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« Reply #64 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 07:27:30 »
Unfortunately, I do need an ergonomic layout.  I have wide shoulders and need the separation between the two sides.

Offline spremino

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« Reply #65 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 08:54:27 »
Splitted standard keyboards are just ergonomic wannabes.

The One True Ergonomic Keyboard, designed to fit our hands, is the Maltron. A specialized ergonomic and efficient layout is available with it, too.

Sadly, a compatible flat keyboard for notebooks is not available, otherwise I'd already made the switch.

BS, mechanical switches... just lipstick on the lips of an otherwise nasty keyboard design.

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #66 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 09:07:29 »
Quote from: spremino;115474
Splitted standard keyboards are just ergonomic wannabes.

The One True Ergonomic Keyboard, designed to fit our hands, is the Maltron. A specialized ergonomic and efficient layout is available with it, too.

Sadly, a compatible flat keyboard for notebooks is not available, otherwise I'd already made the switch.

BS, mechanical switches... just lipstick on the lips of an otherwise nasty keyboard design.
One thing I don't get with the Maltron is: the two typing areas are closer together than the average shoulder width. Meaning your forearms will not be parallel thus forcing you to bend your wrists outwards for the fingers to be in line with the non-staggered keys. But bending the wrist is generally considered un-ergonomic?
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Offline spremino

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« Reply #67 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 09:42:00 »
Quote from: lowpoly;115477
One thing I don't get with the Maltron is: the two typing areas are closer together than the average shoulder width. Meaning your forearms will not be parallel thus forcing you to bend your wrists outwards for the fingers to be in line with the non-staggered keys. But bending the wrist is generally considered un-ergonomic?


Maybe you haven't seen a side view of the keys. Your palms are not expected to lay horizontally, but to rest in a naturally inwardly "bent" position. Look at figures 6 and 7 here:

http://www.maltron.com/recognitia/script.html

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #68 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 10:05:48 »
Yes, I've seen this. It doesn't change what I said though.

From the same page:

Quote
Show Image


Fig. 1 Hand abduction at a common keyboard

The outward turning of the wrists, sometimes to an extreme extent as shown in Fig. 1, requires a sustained muscle tension in the arms to hold the hands in the normal typing position.


With staggered keys you don't have to bend your wrists outward like the pic shows. That's exactly why the keys are staggered. Kind of false advertising using the pic like that. And ironically, this is how you have to hold your hands with a non-staggered 'board. Admittedly, not as extreme with the Maltron.

I'm sure at the end of the day all this doesn't matter much because ergonomic research is a soft science like webwit once said. Just trying to point out a flaw in logic here.
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Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #69 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 10:14:55 »
Quote from: spremino;115487
Maybe you haven't seen a side view of the keys. Your palms are not expected to lay horizontally, but to rest in a naturally inwardly "bent" position. Look at figures 6 and 7 here:

Ah, took a while, but I get it now. If your palms are not parallel to the desk then some of the things I said don't apply.
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Offline spremino

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« Reply #70 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 10:39:44 »
Quote from: lowpoly;115491
With staggered keys you don't have to bend your wrists outward like the pic shows.

Agreed. OTOH, I remember having seen some typing tutor instructing you to do like that. Maybe I'm wrong.

Quote from: lowpoly;115491
That's exactly why the keys are staggered.

Sadly, that's not the case. At least the left side keys would staggered the wrong way, then.

Keyboard keys are staggered because keys on typewriter were staggered, and the latter were staggered for mechanical reason, not ergonomic ones.

Quote from: lowpoly;115491
I'm sure at the end of the day all this doesn't matter much because ergonomic research is a soft science like webwit once said. Just trying to point out a flaw in logic here.

Agreed. OTOH, a keyboard which follows human hands conformation is obviously better than one which mimics surpassed mechanical tools.

A note for the curious: an ergonomic keyboard was designed for the piano, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janko_keyboard
« Last Edit: Mon, 07 September 2009, 11:09:37 by spremino »

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #71 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 11:03:00 »
Funny, I try to keep my wrists as straight as possible, and I don't usually have much, if any soreness or pain on my regular old rectangular layout keyboards...

Of course, it's helpful to have your keyboard farther away to minimize bending of the wrists.

I've had sore wrists after using "ergonomic" rubber dome keyboard, so I can't say I'm the biggest fan of them.
Pointing devices- CH Products DT255 (With Lapis Lazuli ball), Razer Salmosa, Logitech MX400
Buckling Springs - IBM Model M 1391401 (1987) & IBM Model F AT
Cherry MX Blue Switches - iOne Scorpius M10 "otaku"(2009) & OCN-branded Ducky keyboard
Cherry MX Brown Switches - Compaq MX11800 & Cherry G80-8963LUBUS-2 (MX8100) & Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless)

Cherry MX Black Switches -  US Micro Products Metal Keyboard USMP-KX065-TB-USB-A
Fake Cherry MX White Switches - Qtronix Scorpius 32 keypad &  Chicony KB-5191
White round SMK Switches - Gold VTech label keyboard
SMK blue Monterrey Switches - Chicony KB-5181
Damped tactile ALPS - Apple AEKII
Blue NEC Switches - NEC APC-H412


Quote from: bigpook;129625
: ) life is like a box of webwit. you never know what you are going to get.



Offline rdh

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« Reply #72 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 11:55:27 »
Quote from: spremino;115493

A note for the curious: an ergonomic keyboard was designed for the piano, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janko_keyboard


Very cool, I hadn't heard of that before.  It sounds like it was intended to be a more logical layout, though, not a more ergonomic one.
at home: IBM "Space Saving" Model M
at work: Topre Realforce 87UKB55


Offline JBert

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« Reply #73 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 12:25:38 »
Quote from: spremino;115493
Sadly, that's not the case. At least the left side keys would staggered the wrong way, then.

Keyboard keys are staggered because keys on typewriter were staggered, and the latter were staggered for mechanical reason, not ergonomic ones.
Well, there is a fix for European keyboards: simply shift the bottom row one key to the left starting with the B key.

The uTron keyboard must be one of those few modern keyboards to do this.
IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

The storage list:
IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


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Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
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Offline spremino

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« Reply #74 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 13:26:58 »
Quote from: rdh;115506
It sounds like it was intended to be a more logical layout, though, not a more ergonomic one.


Right, I misused the adjective "ergonomic".

Offline spremino

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« Reply #75 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 13:29:13 »
Quote from: ripster;115522
Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?
Show Image


Left side, european way and right side, US...

What's that?

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #76 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 13:35:33 »
Quote from: lowpoly;115491
With staggered keys you don't have to bend your wrists outward like the pic shows. That's exactly why the keys are staggered. Kind of false advertising using the pic like that. And ironically, this is how you have to hold your hands with a non-staggered 'board. Admittedly, not as extreme with the Maltron.

I think you are underestimating the hand separation when using the [strike]Behemoth[/strike] Maltron. Judging by this picture you have >11 key widths between index fingers, compared to 2 on a normal keyboard.

That's like moving your right hand so the index finger is on the 4 key on the numeric pad of a normal board. Try it, the wrist angle is negligible - you can keep the wrists straight and finger movement will take care of any misalignment.


Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #77 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 13:38:17 »
Quote from: timw4mail;115499
Of course, it's helpful to have your keyboard farther away to minimize bending of the wrists.

Your keyboard isn't supposed to be far away though. Your ideal upper body posture is the same as when you're standing up as you're sitting down. If you feel most comfortable with your elbows elevated 45 degrees forward in front of you when you're on your feet, then I guess that's your ideal keyboarding posture.

That's a joke of course. Unless you have some unusual anatomical restrictions or mobility problems, your arms are down by your side. That means if you're sitting, your arms should be bent at an angle to allow you to keep your elbows in approximately the same position as when you're standing.

With good posture, you also don't need to have quite as extreme of an angle in your wrists to put your fingers straight on the keys. A lot of people sit in these great big chairs and put their elbows on the widely spaced armrests. That increases the angle that you either need to bend your wrists or contort your fingers to compensate.

Now, you're correct that moving your keyboard out farther may reduce stress on your wrists, but what you're doing is shifting the ergonomic stress to another part of your body. In exchange for your adjustment, you'll probably put more strain on your neck, shoulders, or your low back. If you have wonky wrists, it may not be a bad tradeoff, but it is indeed a tradeoff and not really a "better" technique.
« Last Edit: Mon, 07 September 2009, 13:46:02 by hyperlinked »
-

Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #78 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 13:46:53 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;115532
In exchange for your adjustment, you'll probably put more strain on your neck, shoulders, or your low back. If you have wonky wrists, it may not be a bad tradeoff, but it is indeed a tradeoff and not really a "better" technique.

Really, I don't put my keyboard that far away, but tend to take a middle of the road approach, so it doesn't feel that unnatural.

As I don't generally have soreness, I don't worry about it too much.
Pointing devices- CH Products DT255 (With Lapis Lazuli ball), Razer Salmosa, Logitech MX400
Buckling Springs - IBM Model M 1391401 (1987) & IBM Model F AT
Cherry MX Blue Switches - iOne Scorpius M10 "otaku"(2009) & OCN-branded Ducky keyboard
Cherry MX Brown Switches - Compaq MX11800 & Cherry G80-8963LUBUS-2 (MX8100) & Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless)

Cherry MX Black Switches -  US Micro Products Metal Keyboard USMP-KX065-TB-USB-A
Fake Cherry MX White Switches - Qtronix Scorpius 32 keypad &  Chicony KB-5191
White round SMK Switches - Gold VTech label keyboard
SMK blue Monterrey Switches - Chicony KB-5181
Damped tactile ALPS - Apple AEKII
Blue NEC Switches - NEC APC-H412


Quote from: bigpook;129625
: ) life is like a box of webwit. you never know what you are going to get.



Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #79 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 15:30:09 »
Quote from: spremino;115493
Sadly, that's not the case. At least the left side keys would staggered the wrong way, then.

Keyboard keys are staggered because keys on typewriter were staggered, and the latter were staggered for mechanical reason, not ergonomic ones.
Good points. This could also explain why the asd and zxc rows have a 50% offset and the asd and qwe rows only 30%. Something I've always wondered about.

Quote from: Rajagra;115531
I think you are underestimating the hand separation when using the [strike]Behemoth[/strike] Maltron. Judging by this picture you have >11 key widths between index fingers, compared to 2 on a normal keyboard.
Still, the lower arms would not be parallel but it looks like that's not necessary.
« Last Edit: Mon, 07 September 2009, 15:35:18 by lowpoly »
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Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #80 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 17:14:15 »
Quote from: webwit;115577
That's why you guys (not me) are typing on this design :)


Webwit is a highly evolved typist. He has six fingers on each hand, and controls the mouse with his mind:

[youtube]925MY7gjmnY[/youtube]

Offline maxlugar

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Ergonomic mechanical keyboard
« Reply #81 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 17:24:54 »
Quote from: Rajagra;115588
Webwit is a highly evolved typist. He has six fingers on each hand, and controls the mouse with his mind:
QUOTE]

Yeah, he's like that freak in the movie Total Recall!
Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #82 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 17:55:36 »
in soviet russia, keyboard types you!

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #83 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 19:34:05 »
Quote from: ripster;115572

They had to stagger this way to get even spacing for the transmission bars attached to the keys. Keyboard manufacturers could stagger any damn way they pleased to.  Chickens.


I learned to type on these human powered marvels of type! There's something to be said about the satisfying feel of making a sharp strike on a full mechanical typewriter and hearing the typearm whip up and thud onto a sheet of paper. There's also something to be said about how much harder they were on your hands.

One has to image the kind of hand strength it would take to pull off the stunt that Jack Kerouac did when he went on his famous continuous typing binge that resulted in the manuscript of "On the Road" in 20 days on a 120 foot long roll of paper.
-

Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline Jcooper01

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« Reply #84 on: Mon, 07 September 2009, 19:36:57 »
I don't think I would have lasted long programming on a mechanical typewriter back then.

Offline lowpoly

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Ergonomic mechanical keyboard
« Reply #85 on: Tue, 08 September 2009, 03:56:01 »
There was a thread lately here in 'keyboards' that had a pic of which finger goes where. Anybody remember the thread title?
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Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #86 on: Tue, 08 September 2009, 04:04:05 »
There was mine, and a few others I think.

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #87 on: Tue, 08 September 2009, 04:16:18 »
That was the one, thanks.
The Apple M0110 Today
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Offline JBert

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Ergonomic mechanical keyboard
« Reply #88 on: Tue, 08 September 2009, 04:29:11 »
Quote from: ripster;115522
Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?
[Pic of DIY international IBM mini]

Quote from: Rajagra;115675
There was mine, and a few others I think.

As good a fix as this may be, last night it occurred to me that this doesn't work for me: typewriters were designed with the mechanical things in mind and not ergonomics; as a result, we're left with a keyboard that is made for people with two right hands (the document webwit linked, "Why Qwerty?", describes this problem in the conclusion).

To make matters interesting, Qwerty even gives the left hand more work even when the key layout is rather unnatural for that hand. The layout can be replaced with Colemak, but the underlying problem remains: it is harder to type with the left hand due to the way the keys are shifted relative to each other. I can't stop wondering what this would mean for Dvorak...


On another note, I recalled that the expensive μTRON keyboard shifted the bottom row. When I took another look at some pictures today, it occurred to me that they also got rid of this "shifting problem" by making two symmetrical keyboard halves. Impressive!

Quite frankly, I doubt there are many slanted keyboards doing this - the Kinesis Freestyle doesn't do it for sure.
« Last Edit: Tue, 08 September 2009, 04:31:15 by JBert »
IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

The storage list:
IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


Currently ignored by: nobody?

Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
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Offline Rajagra

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Ergonomic mechanical keyboard
« Reply #89 on: Tue, 08 September 2009, 04:48:20 »
I'm going to call it the chevron correction.

The odd thing about normal boards is the way the keys are staggered. E.g. each of the following keys is 1/4 key width (3/16") to the right of the one before in the sequence:

QA2ZWS3XED4CRF5VTG6BYH7NUJ8MIK9,...

Couldn't they just have used:
1QAZ2WSX3EDC...