IBM 1386887 (3179 terminal) keyboard conversion

[kishy]

What This Thread is About:
Converting 3179 (and compatible) terminal keyboards for use with the AT or PS/2 interface
There are two "halves" to this - hardware and software.
Thread details hardware rather thoroughly.
Software is still a bit hairy - throw in some questions if you need a hand, I am happy to help.
The software 'half' consists of two things - replacing/modifying a driver and remapping keys through the Windows registry.

Progress You Can Attain By Following This Thread:
Almost 100% - there is still no typematic repeat, however.

This mod can be done by users of Linux or Windows (I can verify my own success for Win2k/XP users only, though)
Chances are good that users with Hackintosh setups will likely not succeed.

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A proper, more direct write up can be found here.
This is the information/discussion/theorizing thread for that mod, terminal keyboards in general, and any potentially relevant "stuff".

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Before You Continue

It is highly recommended that you have an extra, "unimportant" computer or motherboard available for testing that your wiring is correct. If the wiring is not correct, you can and possibly will permanently destroy the PS/2 keyboard interface on your computer!

Unfortunately, there will be some victims in the quest for terminal board use on PCs. Hopefully we can reduce the effect so it is only unwanted extra hardware being victimized, not people's "daily driver" computers.

You have been warned - proceed with caution.

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Hi all, new member here...keep finding myself returning here from Google results so I took that as a sign I should register

I have 4 IBM Model M keyboards...2 of them are somewhat odd, being that they are 3179 terminal keyboards, both born on the same day in 1986 (the other two are 1993 1391401's).

I'm seeking to convert those 3179 terminal 'boards over to the AT and PS/2 standard, most likely using the kbdbabel project (I'm sure plenty here are familiar with it, kbdbabel.org).

[strike]You can find the details of the keyboards and the conversion on my sort of mediocre website, http://kishy.comuf.com/. Projects -> Current -> IBM 3179 Terminal Keyboard Conversion to AT, PS/2. Since I don't have much of a discussion board, I'm kind of looking for a forum to act as a meeting ground for this.[/strike]

I've seen from Google results here that people have tried the 122-key conversion before, or at least wanted to...seems like we all might make more progress if we work together, so I'm more or less calling out to YOU, 122-key owners, for your help/cooperation. Any progress I make is yours, and hopefully vise-versa.

Of course, not all 122-key units are the same electrically...if you've found info saying yours will work on a 3179 then it is functionally the same as mine.

Cheers

edit Aug 13 09
Significant success has been attained by simply swapping the cord and using registry key remaps via the free program "Key Mapper".
I do plan to make a kbdbabel adapter in the future however, and will document that process here, since it seems like directions for making one are desired by at least a couple people. >> KBDBABEL DONGLE DELAYED INDEFINITELY because alternate methods of gaining compatibility have been so successful. I hope and plan to make one but don't have the time, motivation/reason, or money at the moment.



Edit Feb 13 2010: need to make note of this somewhere
Resources which have assisted me in this project:
(in no particular order)

• eBay Seller puravida1881 (donated keyboards, thank you very much!)
  
• eBay Seller onlinecentral (Radio Shack DIN plug)
  
• The kbdbabel open source keyboard protocol translator project (kbdbabel.org)
  
• John Elliott via his own site and his posts in the geekhack thread
  
• Key Mapper, a free program which generates Windows registry key remaps by scancode
  
• PassMark KeyboardTest, a commercial (with trial) program for verifying key mapping and functionality
  

[ch_123]

I think this should have what you are looking for. There's also a thread about a similar Model M terminal keyboard here.

I wonder how similar the electronics are to the old 3178 keyboards... probably not alot considering the 3178 had a parallel connection.

[kishy]

Mhmm, that's (one of?) the thread(s) I found in the past. I figured that a new thread would convey perhaps..."fresh interest", I guess (just checked and see the last post was fairly recent...making me look kind of foolish). Also, that page (on diff site) is in my bookmarks...I've been unsure of what to believe though since that page says it will work, yet kbdbabel suggests a "non-dumb" hardware adapter is needed (since they provide an assembly file for the 3179 adapter).

(either way a physical adapter is needed; the question is if a dumb one can work or not. I'll be answering that for myself once I've swapped the cable for a PS/2 one)

If you're interested in photographs of the PCB in the keyboard I can take a couple...doubt my camera will show any detail on any components so I'd be happy to answer questions about "what's that say on it".

I know nothing about terminals or terminal keyboards, except that I want this monster beast on my desk...though I'd have to put the 1391401 back in the closet until my PS/2 30-286 is back up and running (anyone have a 3.5" HH RLL hard drive?). Point being I can't offer any help with the 3178 question.

[ch_123]

I think the kbdbabel thing is based on two things -

1) You need a physical adaptor for the connector.
2) You need some sort of software component to interpret the keyboard's scancodes correctly.

I'm not familar with the exact model of keyboard that you have, but does it have a permanently attached cable, or a removable SDL cable like the regular Model Ms?

[kishy]

The cord is built in and connects with pins similar to jumpers (same 2x3 connector I've seen used for some PS/2 mouse headers on socket 7 motherboards), some people call them Berg connectors but a "berg connector" is normally floppy power...so idk.

One must wonder...I've read somewhere (I've read a lot and always forget where it comes from) that the original PS/2 standard in some way incorporated scancode set 3, which supposedly is used by these keyboards...then wouldn't my IBM PS/2 systems support it out of the box, using the ps/2 cable?

Difficult to know since the 30-286 is nonoperational and the 56 SX is OS/2...so I wouldn't know if it was OS/2 supporting the board or the controller on the motherboard.

[ch_123]

some people call them Berg connectors but a "berg connector" is normally floppy power...so idk.

As far as I know, 'Berg connector' is the name for that style of connector, not just the floppy/IDE ones specifically. Same way you have DIN connectors for a bunch of stuff other than keyboards.

One must wonder...I've read somewhere (I've read a lot and always forget where it comes from) that the original PS/2 standard in some way incorporated scancode set 3, which supposedly is used by these keyboards...then wouldn't my IBM PS/2 systems support it out of the box, using the ps/2 cable?

IBM was going to implement it, but by the time that they had intended on doing it, they lost interest for some reason or another.

[kishy]

Just looked on Wikipedia and you're right, it's all of the pin-type connectors.

Was going to? I'm guessing then that support is nonexistent because of them losing interest.

[ch_123]

Well, if your keyboard is like the one on John Elliot's site, the keyboard uses the standard AT protocol, it's just that some (ok, most) are not mapped correctly.

You could take a wire from a cheap keyboard, and hook the connectors up to the Berg connector, and try and copy what John Elliot did with his. He gave instructions on the linked thread about setting up the scancodes under Linux, which I'm sure would have an equivalent under Mac OS X. As for Windows, Im not sure of the exact process, but it should be doable.

[kishy]

Wellllll,,,,,



I am     typingggggggggggg thisssssss onmyyyyyyyyy termiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinalllll keyboooooooooooooooooooarddddd onaaaaaaaa cheaaaaap usbbbbb conveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerteeeeeeeeeerrrrr.....




As     you caaaaaaaaaaaan seeeeee, therrrrrrrrrrrre arrrrrrrrrrrre     repeattttt issueeeeeeeeeessss..... Moreeeeeeee detaiiiiiiiiiiiiiils     tomrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrow dayyyyytimeeeee.....

[keyb_gr]

Looks like another usbbb conveerteeerrr might be worth a shot.

[JohnElliott]

You could take a wire from a cheap keyboard, and hook the connectors up to the Berg connector, and try and copy what John Elliot did with his. He gave instructions on the linked thread about setting up the scancodes under Linux, which I'm sure would have an equivalent under Mac OS X. As for Windows, Im not sure of the exact process, but it should be doable.

I've updated that page since, with my experiences under Windows 2000. I could get it to work, but I had to use a KVM switch to do it -- switch away during boot, and come back afterwards. It's then possible to use Windows's scancode remapper to get the function and cursor keys doing what they should.

Whether it's practical for daily use rather than one-off experiments is another matter...

(Oh, and I also made a PS/2-to-DIN adaptor lead for the keyboard so I didn't have to keep borrowing the cable from my Model F).

[lowpoly]

If someone builds a kbdbabel converter, please document it in the mod forum.

[ch_123]

I've updated that page since, with my experiences under Windows 2000. I could get it to work, but I had to use a KVM switch to do it -- switch away during boot, and come back afterwards. It's then possible to use Windows's scancode remapper to get the function and cursor keys doing what they should.

Was Linux affected by the same problems?

[JohnElliott]

Was Linux affected by the same problems?

No, it worked straight away. I think something in the initialisation sequence that Windows sends makes the keyboard sulk; using the KVM means that that sequence never reaches the keyboard.

[kishy]

(this entire post will be typed on the keyboard in question)

keyb_gr,

Correct, it was the USB converter (not a direct adapter; a converter with circuitry inside). Interestingly though, I was getting some of the Cmd keys at the top to DO THINGS while on the USB converter (Cmd 8 was the Standby button, Cmd 7 was the Power button, Cmd 6 context menu, Cmd 4/5 Windows keys). This functionality does not exist over a true PS/2 interface, apparently.

I am now using this connected via an AT-PS/2 adapter on my desktop (one keyboard will end in an AT plug, the other in PS/2, I decided to do the AT one first) and as you can see, no repeat issues, and it's just as lovely to type on as my more traditional Model Ms...though I'd say the keys feel nicer actually.

JohnElliott, You actually don't need a KVM switch...you can unplug and replug the keyboard and it works (but it must remain plugged in during boot for BIOS to keep the PS/2 port operational). I'm planning to put a momentary SPST normally closed button somewhere on this keyboard to interrupt the +5V wire...that should be functionally the same thing as unplugging and replugging it, right?

I've made my own cable for this, without chopping up the original. I collect berg connectors from things I throw out and it turns out my efforts paid off...I found two 2x3 connectors in that ziplock bag.

I'm planning to make this my "daily driver", so to speak. I've found the commercial software PassMark KeyboardTest very handy, as it reveals all sorts of info about the keys being pressed (including the fact that they NEVER SEND AN "UP CODE"...to the computer, the keys are permanently down once pressed. I think this contributed to the repeat issue.)

I'll be writing up a complete document of the WinXP-interpreted equivalents of each key. You've done a lot of the same in a more technical manner (scancode interpretation, etc.).
(edit aug 16 09 - this would be impractical and would take ages, so I've decided not to do it. if anyone has a specific need for this information I will do it by request in this thread)

lowpoly, I am planning to make one...unfortunately the information from Alexander (seems to own/manage the project) was not 100% helpful for someone with no knowledge of microcontroller programming. I will be making one eventually, but unless I get some help with it, it could be +10 years for all I know...a local store which manufactures their own hardware has said they'll help if they can but they need to see all the details to judge if they can.

That said...I think purely software based solutions will actually work on this, for the most part. My motherboard (ECS 755-A2) doesn't seem to have any issues with this keyboard and that's good enough for me. Obviously, remapping all the oddly-mapped keys is a priority, because I forget where I found CTRL hidden...it's on some random key and if I remember right it toggles on/off...

(did all the experiments last night at 3AM, I'm surprised I remember doing them at all)

Pics:
I apologize for the bad pictures; I'm still not 100% used to this camera yet (macro mode seems to be kind of tricky)
Those joints are soldered, the hot glue is for added strengh and short prevention.
The kbdbabel adapter, if made, would go inside the keyboard case itself, and would be a permanent part of the cable, which itself is still removable.

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/4756/1386887freshaftermod.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1236/1386887newplug.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9937/1386887newplugguts.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9211/1386887newcordinside.jpg
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/2713/1386887originallayoutcl.jpg

[kishy]

Same thing here on the Boscom.  I can't remember exactly WHAT keys did what but I was surprised how many of the extra keys were recognized.  I'd test more but my Boscom is "temporarily indisposed".

Hmm...is the Boscom an actual terminal keyboard, or a more modern terminal emulation board?

I suspect it's a feature of my particular "Hong-Kong-2-dollar-ebay-special" USB converter which is interpreting those keys and sending them off to the computer...Windows doesn't know what the heck they do unless it's on the adapter, and when it is, it also has the repeat issue.

[dw_junon]

Hey, this is great to see.  Good work!  I've rambled here about just how similar these are to regular PS/2 'boards of their time, but never did get as far as trying out anything.  I would do so now, though I've searched the place for my 5.5mm nutdriver and the 5.5mm socket bit and just can't find them.  Well Brandon, they are not "totally incompatible", but you really do need to know what you are doing...

From my understanding, I would speculate that the startup issue is related to the keyboard ID (0xBF 0xBF for the 1390876 and the 6110344), which differs from the genericised 0xAB 0x83 [source], though I think usually only the first byte is read during initialization.

[strike]Having thought about it, there may also issues with the BAT, which I will have to look up.[/strike]  Nope, my source says "Four. BAT completion code AA is the same, then the ID will send BFBF.", in reference to a 1390876.

I must also say, it's great to see you've got hold of a 6110344 for your 5271, John; your pages are great, I don't know of any better documentation of either of those.  I must admit though I thought that BT XT 'board you had looked interesting.

Before he so brutally murdered it, ripster's Boscom was indeed a terminal emulator board.  Unicomp presently offer at least three different layouts for these, I uploaded some time ago their PDF on the PC/5250 version, along with an incomplete PassMark-made chart for a Greenock built 5250 emulator 'board P/N 1397003.

[Shawn Stanford]

Before he so brutally murdered it, ripster's Boscom was indeed a terminal emulator board.  Unicomp presently offer at least three different layouts for these, I uploaded some time ago their PDF on the PC/5250 version, along with an incomplete PassMark-made chart for a Greenock built 5250 emulator 'board P/N 1397003.

I have the same keyboard. It's a terminal emulation board, but it's meant more for an AS400 than for a mainframe. Here's the original thread: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6080&highlight=boscom

[JohnElliott]

Interestingly though, I was getting some of the Cmd keys at the top to DO THINGS while on the USB converter (Cmd 8 was the Standby button, Cmd 7 was the Power button, Cmd 6 context menu, Cmd 4/5 Windows keys). This functionality does not exist over a true PS/2 interface, apparently.

That'll be because the Set 2 codes for those keys are similar to the Set 3 codes for the function keys. For example, F4 in set 3 produces 5B, and Left-Windows in set 2 produces E05B. Sounds like the converter isn't making the distinction.

JohnElliott, You actually don't need a KVM switch...you can unplug and replug the keyboard and it works (but it must remain plugged in during boot for BIOS to keep the PS/2 port operational).

Yes, but you're not supposed to hotplug PS/2 equipment :smile:

(including the fact that they NEVER SEND AN "UP CODE"...to the computer, the keys are permanently down once pressed. I think this contributed to the repeat issue.)

It may be possible to change this by sending commands to the keyboard; if you put a 102-key keyboard such as the 1391406 into mode 3, it does the same. The problem is that to do that in Windows requires writing a new keyboard filter driver; that functionality isn't exposed by the standard driver, as I understand it.

[JohnElliott]

I must also say, it's great to see you've got hold of a 6110344 for your 5271, John; your pages are great, I don't know of any better documentation of either of those.

 

Thanks.

I must admit though I thought that BT XT 'board you had looked interesting.

The microcontroller in that has a Zenith copyright sticker. The PCB is marked "12KC397A / Alps Made in Japan / Heath P/N: 163-16". It also has all the keynumbers silkscreened onto it, and a "diode" symbol by each one. As well as the LEDs in the Num Lock and Caps Lock keys, it's also got a piezo speaker that simulates keyclicks.

[InSanCen]

Right, I'm buying one the second I find one on a uk site.

And as a bonus, I use Linux.

Yay, honking great Terminal keyboards forever!

[ch_123]

The odds of you finding one on eBay UK is quite limited. On the other hand, you can get ones for America that are still reasonably cheap.

Example

Even taking the shipping into account, it will more than likely to be cheaper getting it from abroad anyway. Also, as the thing is only $12, you're not going to have that many problems with customs.

Speaking of terminals, one of these is definitely on my to get list -

[kishy]

Hey, this is great to see.  Good work!

I can't honestly take any credit for anything except my ability to put together a keyboard cord (a very mediocre one at that). All credit should go to John Elliott for those fantastically helpful webpages. Alexander at kbdbabel should get some credit too for the inspiration (and also for the pinouts; I like to check pinouts from multiple sources before I trust them, and indeed I did find an incorrect AT kb pinout somewhere in my travels of the net. beware, an inaccurate one IS OUT THERE)

From my understanding, I would speculate that the startup issue is related to the keyboard ID (0xBF 0xBF for the 1390876 and the 6110344), which differs from the genericised 0xAB 0x83 [source], though I think usually only the first byte is read during initialization.

I'll be straight-up honest and say I don't really understand how this causes issues; it seems to me that it would work anyway (but I don't understand how these signals work, what interprets them, etc. I'd greatly appreciate a lesson in keyboard signalling from someone here). Also on "BAT", not sure what that refers to (I'd take a stab and say it's the keyboard identifier sent during initialization).

ripster's Boscom was indeed a terminal emulator board.

I then presume that it is USB, and possibly has a similar integrated conversion circuitry to my lame PS/2 -> USB converter, which might explain the Cmd keys functioning for (him?) as well.

Sounds like the converter isn't making the distinction.

I figured as much...seemed to be a "lucky glitch" to me. At, of course, the expense of the repeating keys (which do not repeat if you immediately press another key after, but that turns into an endless cycle of neverending typing). None of those functions exist when it's going direct to a PS/2 port so it's definitely something to do with the adapter like you said.

Yes, but you're not supposed to hotplug PS/2 equipment :smile:

I know, but I've done it on many computers many times with many keyboards (also with AT)...never had a problem...YET. I forget what post I put it in but I mentioned installing a momentary normally-closed button to interrupt the +5V wire...would this be an equivalent, and if so, does it reduce the risk for damage that comes with hotplugging?

It may be possible to change this by sending commands to the keyboard ..... The problem is that to do that in Windows requires writing a new keyboard filter driver

That's of course about the "sticking" keys...some of them stick, some do not. It's weird. Also...about that USB converter...haha. The keys don't stick when I use it, but they do hold down for it to repeat. When it is not on the adapter, they go down and electrically stay down. When it's on the adapter, they go down, stay down for a rather precise period of time, then go up. I imagine this is the adapter compensating in some way.

It does appear that (you?) have had more success in Linux than Windows (or simply focused on Linux since that's the system you prefer). Not to say I'm "pro-closed-source" exactly, but I would be...well...much less enthusiastic about technology without my Windows. Thus, I am working almost exclusively with Windows (XP 32-bit) for this, but will have a Win98 rig at my disposal if needed, as well as OS/2 2.1 on the PS/2.

Right, I'm buying one the second I find one on a uk site.

And as a bonus, I use Linux.

Yay, honking great Terminal keyboards forever!

The odds of you finding one on eBay UK is quite limited.

Although Canada Post absolutely RAPES YOU for international postage, I definitely have to recommend the eBay seller who GAVE ME MY TWO KEYBOARDS. I explained it was in educational interest as somewhat of a learning experience / summer project and he dropped them off (lives locally to me). I asked for and expected only one, the second was an absolute bonus. Note that the other two he is still selling were made on the same day as my two, they were a matching set of 4 with close but not consecutive serial numbers.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Vintage-IBM-KEYBOARD-Clicky-Model-M-1386887-Wow1986_W0QQitemZ280340022342QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_2?hash=item4145914446&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Don't expect condition to be optimal on those; both of mine were missing a couple keycaps but I was able to piece one complete one together out of the two. I don't know if he'll clean them before shipping (mine were not, but then again I didn't pay so I wouldn't expect that). They CLEARLY saw use in a machine shop or factory and were filthy before my cleaning (the bad one didn't get a before pic, sadly, I wish I had taken one).

[microsoft windows]

My keyboard is missing a few keycaps too but I never really got around to finding replacements (they're Esc and I).

[Specter_57]

kishy ...

You may want to take a look at this thread here on GeekHack:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5264

...there is some discussion about 122-key terminal and emulator keyboards there...and some info related to what you are interested in doing, especially toward the end of the thread.

Hopefully you'll find the info there useful and interesting as related to your project.


Spec57

[kishy]

ripster,

Interesting then. Did you also find that the additional functions went away when you used it directly on PS/2?

I'd venture a guess that our USB converters possibly have the same (or extremely similar) circuitry inside if so.

Specter,

Thanks for that, I've actually seen it before though. The problem is, after reading it 3 times (more or less the second half, about the 122 key boards), I still don't see many parallels to my own situation...though I am going to try the remapping software mentioned in it. Let's remember that this keyboard is "working properly" using only a different cable, nothing more. Also, PassMark KeyboardTest indicates that Windows is in fact seeing the scancodes from the non-recognized keys, so they can (in theory) be assigned to stuff.

Though, that "always down" issue could prove problematic at some point. Fortunately the modifier keys don't stick (that would be miserable).



edit:
Looking for keycaps, just checked both boards to figure out which:

Cmd14
Blank keycap
Play / Test (play on top surface, test on front)
SetUp (blue text)
Roll (down arrow) (this is the cursor down arrow)

If anyone has some or all of these keys, I'm interested.

[kishy]

"AutoHotKey" is going to be useless for this, it doesn't appear to actually do anything with scancodes. I say this because earlier I said I'd try it.

I have, however, just discovered something possibly helpful, which appears to have been mentioned on the site before but not often...the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-ca/goglobal/bb964665.aspx).

Haven't even touched it yet, but if it works by scancodes which it appears to (the claims it makes suggest it does, but I can't find info saying it actually does), this could be the thing. Will report on success if any.

-edit-
Forget that, it's pretty much useless.

-edit-
OMFG I FOUND IT
"Key Mapper 1.0.0.0"
http://justkeepswimming.net/keymapper/
It lets me have it watch for keys, then I can press a key (even the currently undetected ones!) and map them to pretty much any imaginable function.

The software solution is here!

[Rajagra]

"AutoHotKey" is going to be useless for this, it doesn't appear to actually do anything with scancodes. I say this because earlier I said I'd try it.

Didn't it show them at all in the key history screen?

I'll download that other app anyway, just in case.

[kishy]

From my looking into it, it sounded so promising, but then I actually looked at how you write scripts for it and you don't reference scancodes, you reference a key by its function (like, E instead of the scancode for the E key). That's a problem here because the vast majority of the keys are either not performing any function or performing ones from various other keys.

Now, to work on getting those keys to "release". It's not proving to be problematic for the alphanumeric keys, but the lock keys are bad...also when I start assigning stuff to the Cmd keys it could be a problem since they do stick.

[Rajagra]

AHK can use virtual key or scan code references, but that Key Mapper looks good - when I loaded it up it knew I had remapped 3 keys in the registry and was using Colemak!...