Author Topic: 122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)  (Read 16532 times)

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Offline kishy

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122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
« on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 20:32:05 »


The original poster now considers this method 'deprecated'
Please consider Teensy-based USB converter solutions, posted about here on Geekhack already.
This method will work, but is not preferable.

[H=1]Introduction[/H]

[H=2]History, background and overview[/H]

First, before I scare you off: the procedure is to replace or adapt the plug on the keyboard to AT or PS/2, and then do a couple software things to make it a little more usable. The article is very wordy considering that, but it's better to explain too much than not enough.

In the 1980s (and before), 'dumb terminals' were pretty much the industry accepted way of many users in a given location accessing a computer (a mainframe or midrange system that the terminals connected to). The terminals themselves were simplistic, limited-capability devices that more or less just establish a connection to the host system, display the information from it and allow communication.

In the 1980s, sometime around (shortly before, it appears) the introduction of the PC AT, IBM used the new keyboard protocol they had developed for that system ("AT") in the new terminals they were releasing. They used a similar-looking DIN plug with 5 pins, which appears to have been a standard 6 pin DIN socket with the 6th left unpopulated (this accounts for the unusual spacing and pin thickness, which were standard for a 6 position connector, not the 5 position one). These plugs are not mechanically compatible with XT or AT, but they have +5V, GND and AT-compatible data and clock pins, meaning that with physical adaptation they can be used with relative ease. Compare this with XT which uses the same physical connector as AT, but incompatible signalling...the terminal boards are easier to work with by far.

At some unknown point later in time, IBM migrated from the DIN connector to an 8P4C (8 positions, 4 populated conductors) modular plug (commonly but arguably incorrectly known as RJ45). There may be 4P4C connectors as well. These keyboards maintained the same signalling and are just as 'conversion-friendly' as the DIN connector models.

Seemingly because it was an early implementation of the protocol, there are a couple 'bugs' which are in fact fully supported by the protocol/standard, but not by modern software. These will be addressed in a later section of this article.

The keyboards used for these terminals have included capacitive buckling spring (Model F), membrane buckling spring (Models M/M2) and rubber dome (possibly M2 only?) switching technologies. They have had a variety of physical and logical layouts and many, many part numbers.

[H=2]Does this apply to my keyboard?[/H]

In order to determine if this mod should work with your keyboard, you need to first determine what type of IBM dumb terminal it was designed for use with. The majority you're likely to find are compatible, but it's important to check.

First, use the search engine of your preference to search for your keyboard's part number (for example, "1386887"). Then, look through the result summaries looking for a 4-digit number...in most cases a 4 digit number in a search result for one of these keyboards is the terminal type (for example, 3179, 3192, 3488...etc). What can be particularly helpful is resellers who say, for example, "1386887 IBM KEYBOARD FOR 3179 TERMINAL" or something to that effect.

According to the kbdbabel project, the following terminals used keyboards suitable for this process:

3151-3153, 3179, 318x, 319x, 34xx

Independent research also includes at least some 329x terminals as well. There may well be others but they aren't known for certain at this time.

[H=2]Alright, my keyboard is compatible. What are those problems you mentioned?[/H]

    [*]When a computer with an AT or PS/2 port starts up, it 'asks' the keyboard what its ID is. This is a hexadecimal number. Some computers can be particularly picky about this (IBM at least, possibly others) and may fail POST citing a keyboard error if they dislike the reported ID. Some of the keyboards have jumpers or DIP switches that allow for modification of the ID so this issue can often be resolved when it happens.
    [*]Modern Windows (NT-based) do something during keyboard initialization which causes the keyboard to 'hang' or otherwise become nonfunctional. Hot unplugging and replugging after this occurs fixes the problem, but this risks damage to both the keyboard and motherboard. A modified driver exists for XP which corrects this.
    [*]By default, the keyboards do not send break codes. Keypresses on a keyboard normally send a 'make code' to indicate the key has been pressed, and a 'break code' to indicate it has been released. Old software is generally tolerant of this, and some modern software can be as well, but occasionally weird behaviour will occur. The keyboards can be instructed to enable break codes, but if they are, there is no hardware-level typematic repeat (ex. press and hold a key, and it repeats). The above-mentioned modified driver corrects the break code issue, but does introduce the lack of repeat issue.
    [*]The keys are mapped like an XT or AT-layout keyboard: wacky. You'll want to be able to remap the keys if you want the keyboard to be usable. The article describes a couple ways to do this later on.
    [/LIST]

    [H=2]Alright, I can deal with all that. What are the risks?[/H]

    As with most mods, there are possible risks associated with this process. If you make a mistake, whether it is your own fault or an issue with the clarity of this document or others, it is possible to end up with a damaged keyboard, motherboard or both.

    The risks, if you do this all properly, are quite low, so just read carefully and ask questions if you have any and you should be fine. Rushing is generally not recommended. This article mentions that hotplugging can be done to verify if the keyboard is working, but this is not a suggestion or instruction to do so. If you do, do it at your own risk, and understand the risk.

    [H=2]What You'll Need[/H]

      [*]Basic electronics abilities (cutting and stripping wires, perhaps light soldering, continuity checking)
      [*]Multimeter or continuity tester (or some other way to check what pins go to what wires in your replacement cord)
      [*]Other tools - to open keyboard, to cut/strip wires, to solder...
      [*]Keyboard to be converted (duh)
      [*]A USB keyboard (not so duh)...there are times you may have no PS/2 port driver during this, so it's important to have a USB HID keyboard available!
      [*]Computer with a PS/2 or AT keyboard port - this will not work on a USB converter
      [*]A cord with connector from any PS/2 or AT keyboard
      OR just a connector if you plan to hack up the original cord
      [*]Software: key remapping abilities
      [*]Software: key monitoring abilities
      [/list]

      [H=1]The Process[/H]

      [H=2]Hardware[/H]

      [H=3]Jumper Configuration (if so equipped)[/H]

      Note: does not apply to all keyboards. Some only have some of the pins, some don't have any.

      Open the keyboard. On the controller PCB, you will hopefully find a set of pins corresponding to the following image (lacking jumpers installed, of course). In some cases wires will run from these pins to a bank of DIP switches on the bottom of the case, and in some cases some or all of these pins won't be present.

      If the pins are present, set the jumpers like I've shown. If the pins are wired to DIP switches, set the switches in an equivalent manner (or remove the wire header and set jumpers on the pins if you like). If the pins aren't there at all, or some are missing, don't touch them at all.



      If you are unable to do this, it may or may not be an issue. If your computer fails POST citing a keyboard error, then this is an issue for you, and you probably can't proceed.

      [H=3]New Cable Construction[/H]

      This presumes you are swapping the entire cable (easier) instead of just swapping the connector. The connector swap is obviously similar.

        [*]What you need to do first is figure out the pinout of your cable. The wire colours aren't really standarized and so may vary from keyboard to keyboard...or worse, the same colours as another keyboard may be used, but mixed up.

        Using a multimeter or continuity tester, check each pin of the AT or PS/2 connector against each wire at the other end. Make a table of pin numbers/functions and what wire colour corresponds to each. Refer to the pinout for the AT or PS/2 connector (whichever you are using) to figure out what each pin is.

        This and this, GH Member JohnElliott's pages including AT and terminal pinouts

        Another set of pinouts for AT and PS/2

        [*]Inside the keyboard, there is a 6-position pin header with one pin removed. PIC HERE. The pinout for this connector is as follows:
        Code: [Select]

        NO CONN .   . +5VDC
          CLOCK . . . DATA    
                  |
        BETW/ CLK & DATA: GND

        This pinout is looking at the ends of the pins.


        Note that in the Model F versions, these pins are in the same arrangement but are added onto the end of the jumper pins. Refer to this image:



        Original cable colours on a 1386887: Clock=Yellow, Ground=White, Data=Red, +5V=Black

        What you need to do is "find a way to connect the wires of your new cable to those pins." This can be done by snipping the connector from the original cable, or using a few connectors from computer case LEDs, etc. Useful link about working with this style of connector. This picture shows how I originally did mine.

        [*]Install the cable in the keyboard. Before proceeding, please check...then check again...then check AGAIN...that each pin of the AT or PS/2 plug corresponds to the correct pin on the keyboard controller.
        [/list]

        [H=3]Cable Functionality Test[/H]

        It's time to test your keyboard! Shut down your testing computer, plug the keyboard in, and power it up.

        First, try to get into your BIOS setup menu. If you require F11 or F12 to do this, it's not possible because the keyboard doesn't have those keys. If you require Delete, try using the numpad period (.) key.

        122-key hints: the F keys (F1-F10 at least) are the far left block of the keyboard. Top left is F1, beside it is F2, continuing down to F10 in the lower right. Delete is the key which is normally numpad decimal. The cursor/nav keys are numpad 4, 8, 6, and 2. Esc is what would normally be numlock. Immediately beside that is the actual numlock.

        Once you are in the menu (if able to get in), try to navigate around a little. The only arrow keys by default are on the numpad, and if numlock is on, they will not be available until you turn it off.

        If the keyboard was able to enter the setup menu to begin with, you've got a working cable swap.

        [H=2]Software[/H]

        First, let's make sure your operating system is recognizing the keyboard's presence. Boot up the computer with the keyboard connected.

        In Linux, MS-DOS & Win9x the keyboard should work without any kind of hotplugging required.

        NT-based Windows does something during keyboard initialization which these keyboards dislike. This causes a hot unplug and hot plug to be necessary at the Welcome/login prompt or later.

        Note: PS/2 equipment is not designed for and technically does not support hotplugging. Although rare, damage may occur from doing it. The type of damage that could happen could not be repaired if it did. Do this at your own risk.

        You may get a small series of system beeps when plugging the keyboard back in - this is normal and expected if it happens. At this point, the alphanumeric block of the keyboard should function (test in notepad) with the possible occasional repeat problem. Note it is functioning kind of like an 84-key AT keyboard (CTRL is caps lock, etc). Your 10 F-keys (on the left) should be working as well.

        [H=3]Driver Swap (Win2k/XP)[/H]

        Certain modifications, described further up, have been made to the PS/2 port driver (courtesy of member JohnElliott and I believe sethstorm, possibly others) in order to allow somewhat more usable operation of these keyboards in Windows (2000/XP tested). You'll need to either a) modify your PS/2 port driver yourself with the DIFF file from JohnElliott (find here the file and how to use it), or b) replace your existing driver with the version found in Software Sources further down the page.

        You may find that swapping the driver does not work on Windows newer than XP. Success may be possible using the DIFF file instead...someone get me in the loop about this please.

        The working copy is located in %windir%\System32\drivers and is protected by Windows File Protection. If you replace the file yourself without any preperatory actions, you'll find it automatically replaced again with the original. I recommend WfpReplace to get around this.

        Once the driver is swapped/modified, reboot the computer. Does the keyboard work in Windows without hotplugging? Then the driver has successfully been swapped. If not, retrace your steps and verify the driver is successfully in place and that the keyboard is in Device Manager.

        If you feel so inclined you can test your keyboard with PassMark KeyboardTest. It is available as a fully-featured time-limited trial. I have created a custom layout for the program which can be found on this page (look for IBM-3179).

        Quite simply, press every key on the keyboard. The key that is normally "Home" on a normal-layout keyboard should result in a beep if you have a system speaker. Your results, if the driver swap worked as intended, will look like this:



        The sole "yellow" key cannot be tested because it actually acts to Windows like "Alt+PrintScreen", which has no (Windows) scancode (the key actually sends a code, but Windows reads it wrong, or something like that).

        Note that the KeyboardTest layout is only accurate with the default mappings.

        [H=3]Key Mapping[/H]

        Use your preferred software key mapping tool to set up the keyboard how you like.

        There really isn't much more to say about this, it's the same as for any other keyboard. Ideally though the software will be able to detect keys by scancode, otherwise you won't be able to specify what key to remap.

        For this process (in Windows), I used the free software tool Key Mapper. This program generates a registry file to semi-permanently map the keys to what you want. Keep in mind this affects all connected keyboards.

        If you are familiar with AutoHotkey, it is also very capable and is nice in that it doesn't mess around with the registry. Basically, any tool which remaps by *SCANCODE* will be sufficient.

        [H=1]Reference Library[/H]

        [H=2]Confirmed Suitable Part Numbers[/H]

        This is a list of part numbers (individual keyboards) that have been confirmed to use this protocol and are therefore suitable for conversion.

          [*]1386887, Model M. 122 keys, membrane buckling spring. Originally for 3179; has wide-spaced 5 pin DIN plug.
          [*]6110668, Model F. 122 keys, capacitive buckling spring. Originally for 3179; has wide-spaced 5 pin DIN plug.
          [/LIST]

          [H=2]Pinouts[/H]

          [H=3]AT[/H]



          [H=3]PS/2[/H]



          [H=3]Connector Inside the Keyboard[/H]



          [H=2]Software Sources[/H]

            [*]Microsoft Windows Driver Development Kit (DDK) - if you want to modify the PS/2 port driver by hand
            [*]KeyMapper - graphical tool for creating Windows registry-based key mappings. Detects the key that you press so knowing the scancode is not required.
            [*]AutoHotkey - powerful key map scripting tool
            [*]PassMark KeyboardTest and kishy's custom layout file - useful for verifying functionality of your keyboard
            [*]WfpReplace - tool which assists in replacing files protected by WFP (Windows File Protection), including the PS/2 port driver
            [*]i8042prt.sys - latest version kishy has is here (it's not just you, the link sucks. will fix in the future, sorry), but there's a newer one floating around out there...
            [/list]
            « Last Edit: Fri, 25 March 2011, 23:05:02 by kishy »
            kishy.dyndns.org is now KISHY.CA

            "AT Model F". Not "Model F AT", "F AT", or "Model AT F". Just "AT Model F".
            Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
            Want to learn about the Kishsaver?

            Offline kishy

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            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #1 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 20:32:41 »
            -post reserved for later use by kishy if needed-
            « Last Edit: Sat, 03 October 2009, 23:58:11 by kishy »
            kishy.dyndns.org is now KISHY.CA

            "AT Model F". Not "Model F AT", "F AT", or "Model AT F". Just "AT Model F".
            Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
            Want to learn about the Kishsaver?

            Offline nowsharing

            • Posts: 627
            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #2 on: Sat, 03 April 2010, 01:07:03 »
            Great writeup Kishy--I'll try to convert a couple of terminal space savers in August.

            Offline kishy

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            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #3 on: Sat, 03 April 2010, 01:19:23 »
            Thanks :)

            I'm gonna do my best to fill in the remaining holes in this soon. I'm really short on attention, contiguous free time, and patience lately (it's easy to throw a reply in a thread while in a lecture, but certainly not as easy to edit and review an article like this in the same setting). As of right now all the info you need to get it working to the state I have(had) mine is there, just the 'expansion' of some details is missing.

            Also note that this technique may be 'obsoleted' by the USB Model M controller board if I can get mine to WORK (I've presently got replacement AVRs and programmer on the way because sellers of both have agreed on the potential of their products being faulty).
            kishy.dyndns.org is now KISHY.CA

            "AT Model F". Not "Model F AT", "F AT", or "Model AT F". Just "AT Model F".
            Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
            Want to learn about the Kishsaver?

            Offline nowsharing

            • Posts: 627
            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #4 on: Sat, 03 April 2010, 11:36:01 »
            The USB option may be superior in performance but your mod is something that most of us could perform with parts we have on hand. I know that I could't build the USB board with my limited electronic skills--Pre-fabs would be nice; I hope they materialize.

            Offline kishy

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            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #5 on: Sat, 03 April 2010, 11:51:34 »
            Quote from: nowsharing;169233
            The USB option may be superior in performance but your mod is something that most of us could perform with parts we have on hand. I know that I could't build the USB board with my limited electronic skills--Pre-fabs would be nice; I hope they materialize.


            Well, it'd also be superior in the non-hacked-drivers sense...when Win2k and XP go out the window entirely these "converted" keyboards will cease to BE converted. The driver swap is a critical part of the process.

            Hopefully we can get a permanent USB solution verified completely working soon. I don't doubt the USB controller mod, but I do doubt the ease of assembly for many people like you said.
            kishy.dyndns.org is now KISHY.CA

            "AT Model F". Not "Model F AT", "F AT", or "Model AT F". Just "AT Model F".
            Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
            Want to learn about the Kishsaver?

            Offline Malcolm Lowry

            • Posts: 11
            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #6 on: Thu, 07 October 2010, 11:01:00 »
            Two questions: First, what happens then when you run the ps/2 into a Blue Cube adapter? Does it just fail to work? I'm guessing yes.

            Second, has anyone yet built a USB device (programmable?) to compensate for the difference so that the keys can be recognized? You discuss it, but Kishy's last post was back in April.
            « Last Edit: Thu, 07 October 2010, 11:25:11 by Malcolm Lowry »

            Offline kishy

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            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #7 on: Thu, 07 October 2010, 12:04:05 »
            First, welcome to Geekhack!

            Quote from: Malcolm Lowry;230865
            Two questions: First, what happens then when you run the ps/2 into a Blue Cube adapter? Does it just fail to work? I'm guessing yes.

            It "works" in that it sends keys, but they endlessly repeat. Not recommended.

            Quote
            Second, has anyone yet built a USB device (programmable?) to compensate for the difference so that the keys can be recognized? You discuss it, but Kishy's last post was back in April.

            There was a controller replacement which I have yet to fully examine (check member mnemonix's posts to find it), and member dfj constructed a converter based on the teensy++ which I currently use. It's not 100% ready for public reveal though.
            kishy.dyndns.org is now KISHY.CA

            "AT Model F". Not "Model F AT", "F AT", or "Model AT F". Just "AT Model F".
            Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
            Want to learn about the Kishsaver?

            Offline Malcolm Lowry

            • Posts: 11
            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #8 on: Thu, 07 October 2010, 21:45:19 »
            Thanks for your response, and thanks for the welcome.

            If you are using that teensy++ converter, it must be, by definition, usable. What is holding it back from a debut to the community?

            Also, just as a matter of philosophy, if the Blue Cube is good enough to have the right matrix and understand the keys, the fact that there is no break code seems like the last 5% of the problem.

            There are SO many 122 keys out there right now for sale on ebay. There are a lot of sales to be made in converters that can mediate the 122 key boards.

            Whatever the case, is there a place to see this prototype USB device?

            Thanks,

            Malcolm

            Offline kishy

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            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #9 on: Thu, 07 October 2010, 22:12:25 »
            Quote from: Malcolm Lowry;231131
            If you are using that teensy++ converter, it must be, by definition, usable. What is holding it back from a debut to the community?


            Well, it's not my project to release; that's dfj's call to begin with. That being said, there are some current incompatibilities with pre-operating-system stuff (boot mode) on some systems and perhaps another issue or two. Plus, the key remapping procedure is, AFAIK, only documented in dfj's head at this point so that'll have to be brought out somehow.

            Quote from: Malcolm Lowry;231131
            Also, just as a matter of philosophy, if the Blue Cube is good enough to have the right matrix and understand the keys, the fact that there is no break code seems like the last 5% of the problem.


            Not quite; the keyboard itself sends mostly standard scancodes which the blue cube (and most other USB PS/2 converters) can take in and convert to HID stuff. The extra keys are either misinterpreted or not interpreted at all and because they are not passed over to the computer, cannot be used.

            Quote from: Malcolm Lowry;231131
            There are SO many 122 keys out there right now for sale on ebay. There are a lot of sales to be made in converters that can mediate the 122 key boards.


            Yes, there are a good number of them. If you were to want one, I'd advise grabbing one soon...it is quite possible that, once (if) converters become commonplace among us keyboard geeks, the used prices for these may go up considerably (after all, in current state, they aren't exactly useful).

            Quote from: Malcolm Lowry;231131
            Whatever the case, is there a place to see this prototype USB device?


            You may consider taking a look at my signature :)
            kishy.dyndns.org is now KISHY.CA

            "AT Model F". Not "Model F AT", "F AT", or "Model AT F". Just "AT Model F".
            Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
            Want to learn about the Kishsaver?

            Offline 7bit

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            Help!
            « Reply #10 on: Thu, 04 November 2010, 06:47:02 »
            My 122-key terminal board (from September 1985) arrived some days ago. It is quite dirty. But that's not all.

            It STINKS!

            I took it apart, as far as I could. But now I don't know how to separate the mount-plate from the PCB. Between them, there is some foam-rubber. It stinks, not nicotine, but ...

            ... well, it's hard to describe, ...

            ... just don't clean your toilet for some week^Wmonths and you know how it ...

            Well, anyway, thanks for help!
            Buy key caps here: Round 5
            Buy switches here: CherryMX

            Offline kishy

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            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #11 on: Thu, 04 November 2010, 14:55:36 »
            Rubbery foam sounds like Model F. Yeah, they can be in rough shape (and the foam always will be).

            On my 104-key Model F (122 minus numpad) there is one clip that you fold back, and then the backplate and underlying PCB slide in one direction to unlatch off of the front.

            Don't do this unless you have a lot of patience. Oh, and remove ALL THE KEYS first, or those springs will be everywhere except in the keyboard.

            Hell, don't do it unless you're very, very bored...or hate yourself.
            kishy.dyndns.org is now KISHY.CA

            "AT Model F". Not "Model F AT", "F AT", or "Model AT F". Just "AT Model F".
            Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
            Want to learn about the Kishsaver?

            Offline 7bit

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            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #12 on: Thu, 04 November 2010, 15:53:51 »
            Quote from: kishy;242624
            Rubbery foam sounds like Model F. Yeah, they can be in rough shape (and the foam always will be).
            ...

            Hell, don't do it unless you're very, very bored...or hate yourself.

            Thanks for the warning!

            My keyboard looks like this from the outside:


            With removing the keys you didn't mean just the key caps, right?



            This is the backplate view:



            Now I know what you mean. :-(

            What about an isopropyl alcohol bath?

            http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=207372&postcount=13

            Would that damage anything?
            Buy key caps here: Round 5
            Buy switches here: CherryMX

            Offline JBert

            • Posts: 1187
            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #13 on: Thu, 04 November 2010, 16:47:16 »
            Quote from: kishy;242624
            ROh, and remove ALL THE KEYS first, or those springs will be everywhere except in the keyboard.
            * EXCEPT the space bar. That one is a bit tricky to remove and re-attach, it is better to carefully release the spring when opening the keyboard.
            IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

            The storage list:
            IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


            Currently ignored by: nobody?

            Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
            [/SIZE]

            Offline looserboy

            • Posts: 166
            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #14 on: Tue, 31 May 2011, 13:54:45 »
            well i ll buy in few hours a terminal model f 3477 or 3487 and, no i dont hate myself and i am not bored but its still to awesome to do this and use it at a regular pc :D
            damn that numbers are not listed in here, would this keyboard work for a RJ to PS2 soldering?
            « Last Edit: Tue, 31 May 2011, 13:58:50 by looserboy »

            Cherry: G80 MX11900blacks  - G80 MX1800 blacks - G80 MX1502 blacks all cards  - G81 MY 8005 ins. cards - G81 MY 3000 modded to 20g (HowTo)
            NMB SPACEINVADER white
            Noppo: Choc Pro browns  - Choc Mini reds
            IBM: Model F IBM: Model M SSK IBM: Model M

            Offline Ralphies

            • Posts: 3
            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #15 on: Mon, 22 August 2011, 16:22:55 »
            Hi everyone,

            I am Ralphies from the Netherlands. I saw at my work an old terminal keyboard, it was a model 1394167, it has a RJ45 telephone look plug.

            Just like this borrowed picture

            Today I took a ps/2 cable from an Compaq keyboard and used this cable to mount it on the print of the IBM terminal keyboard.

            Here some pictures taken when i openend.






            I got one yellow cable (= shielding), another yellow cable, a white cable , a red cable and a black cable.

            As I examened this post with 122 keyboard, I hope these cables where the same layout as mine. I can find no schematics of my keyboard.

            But assuming shield = yellow, clock = other yellow cable, ground= white, data=red and +5V= black cable.

            Then I took clock (yellow) to pin 5 (see piucture below for ps/2 diagram).
            Ground (white) to pin 3
            Data (red) to pin 1
            +5volt (black) to pin 4.

            And offcourse the yellow IBM shieldingcable attached to the shieldingwire of the Compac ps/2 cable.

            I measured with the multimeter before at the compac cable which cable belonged to which pin of the PSD?2 connector.



            But nothing is happing, computer starts up, gives an keyboard-error, but when getting to my grub , no arrows buttons working and after some time my ubuntu comes in but no button of this keyboard will work at my ubuntu login screen.

            Is the 1394167 terminal not usable for a pc?, or do I have the wrong cables attached to the ps/2 cable (like in diagram)?

            Greetings from the Netherlands.
            « Last Edit: Mon, 22 August 2011, 17:02:58 by Ralphies »

            Offline EverythingIBM

            • Posts: 3041
            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #16 on: Mon, 22 August 2011, 21:27:14 »
            Quote from: Ralphies;403475
            Hi everyone,

            I am Ralphies from the Netherlands. I saw at my work an old terminal keyboard, it was a model 1394167, it has a RJ45 telephone look plug.

            Just like this borrowed picture

            Today I took a ps/2 cable from an Compaq keyboard and used this cable to mount it on the print of the IBM terminal keyboard.

            Here some pictures taken when i openend.

            I got one yellow cable (= shielding), another yellow cable, a white cable , a red cable and a black cable.

            As I examened this post with 122 keyboard, I hope these cables where the same layout as mine. I can find no schematics of my keyboard.

            But assuming shield = yellow, clock = other yellow cable, ground= white, data=red and +5V= black cable.

            Then I took clock (yellow) to pin 5 (see piucture below for ps/2 diagram).
            Ground (white) to pin 3
            Data (red) to pin 1
            +5volt (black) to pin 4.

            And offcourse the yellow IBM shieldingcable attached to the shieldingwire of the Compac ps/2 cable.

            I measured with the multimeter before at the compac cable which cable belonged to which pin of the PSD?2 connector.

            But nothing is happing, computer starts up, gives an keyboard-error, but when getting to my grub , no arrows buttons working and after some time my ubuntu comes in but no button of this keyboard will work at my ubuntu login screen.

            Is the 1394167 terminal not usable for a pc?, or do I have the wrong cables attached to the ps/2 cable (like in diagram)?

            Greetings from the Netherlands.

             
            No, you have to create a *signal converter*. The issue isn't a different port, the issue is a different signal.

            You can use them with a PC by bridging a converter [between the controller and preferably ending out into USB] made from a teensy or something (or if you're real clever, create a whole new controller compatible with USB or PS/2).
            But most people make the converters out to USB rather than PS/2; not sure if anyone actually made one in PS/2 come to think of it.
            Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

            Offline kishy

            • Thread Starter
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            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #17 on: Mon, 22 August 2011, 23:17:52 »
            Whoops, sorry for missing replies!

            Quote from: 7bit;242638
            Thanks for the warning!

            My keyboard looks like this from the outside:
            (picture snipped)

            With removing the keys you didn't mean just the key caps, right?

            (picture snipped)

            This is the backplate view:

            (picture snipped)

            Now I know what you mean. :-(

            What about an isopropyl alcohol bath?

            http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=207372&postcount=13

            Would that damage anything?

            Isopropyl alcohol can't really damage anything (except perhaps paper, or in extremely high concentrations, idk - ymmv), but I'm sure you figured this out by now (long time since your post). It's an excellent cleaning solution (pun intended).
             
            Quote from: JBert;242649
            * EXCEPT the space bar. That one is a bit tricky to remove and re-attach, it is better to carefully release the spring when opening the keyboard.

            Not true - the XT and AT (and possibly one or two terminal variants with a comparable layout) are the only Model F boards with this design, due to the abnormal length of the spacebar. All terminal boards which use the smaller more normal spacebar use normal stabilizers and can be handled like any normal key.
             
            Quote from: looserboy;353739
            well i ll buy in few hours a terminal model f 3477 or 3487 and, no i dont hate myself and i am not bored but its still to awesome to do this and use it at a regular pc :D
            damn that numbers are not listed in here, would this keyboard work for a RJ to PS2 soldering?

            Those terminals use the keyboards with the modular plug ("RJ" not-quite-correctly, but in common use). They are adaptable but I don't have a pinout for you - but this next reply I'm mass-replying to might very well detail it, I haven't read it yet.
             
            Quote from: Ralphies;403475
            Hi everyone,

            I am Ralphies from the Netherlands. I saw at my work an old terminal keyboard, it was a model 1394167, it has a RJ45 telephone look plug.

            Just like this borrowed picture (picture snipped)

            Today I took a ps/2 cable from an Compaq keyboard and used this cable to mount it on the print of the IBM terminal keyboard.

            Here some pictures taken when i openend.

            (picture snipped)

            (picture snipped)


            I got one yellow cable (= shielding), another yellow cable, a white cable , a red cable and a black cable.

            As I examened this post with 122 keyboard, I hope these cables where the same layout as mine. I can find no schematics of my keyboard.

            But assuming shield = yellow, clock = other yellow cable, ground= white, data=red and +5V= black cable.

            Then I took clock (yellow) to pin 5 (see piucture below for ps/2 diagram).
            Ground (white) to pin 3
            Data (red) to pin 1
            +5volt (black) to pin 4.

            And offcourse the yellow IBM shieldingcable attached to the shieldingwire of the Compac ps/2 cable.

            I measured with the multimeter before at the compac cable which cable belonged to which pin of the PSD?2 connector.

            Show Image


            But nothing is happing, computer starts up, gives an keyboard-error, but when getting to my grub , no arrows buttons working and after some time my ubuntu comes in but no button of this keyboard will work at my ubuntu login screen.

            Is the 1394167 terminal not usable for a pc?, or do I have the wrong cables attached to the ps/2 cable (like in diagram)?

            Greetings from the Netherlands.

            That initial photo sure looks familiar, like perhaps I was the one who took it :) Greetings, indeed.

            I went on to sell that exact pictured unit, 1394167, to another geekhacker who proceeded to cable mod it and he did succeed with getting it working on PS/2 as I have documented. It is a compatible model. However, your 'keyboard error' is due to the issue I mentioned, where the reported keyboard ID is not an expected/valid ID (and/or you might have clk/dat reversed, I'm not sure of colours/pinouts for those keyboards - I did request documentation from the person I sold the board to but I believe he went inactive and disappeared).

            Please keep me updated with any progress you make. After I post this reply I might spot something jumping out at me and reply again just to be sure I'm fully clear on the way you're hooked up.
             
            Quote from: EverythingIBM;403602
            No, you have to create a *signal converter*. The issue isn't a different port, the issue is a different signal.

            You can use them with a PC by bridging a converter [between the controller and preferably ending out into USB] made from a teensy or something (or if you're real clever, create a whole new controller compatible with USB or PS/2).
            But most people make the converters out to USB rather than PS/2; not sure if anyone actually made one in PS/2 come to think of it.

            You should know better than this - these boards are quite usable on PS/2 or AT, with appropriate software hackery.

            However, I am now 'deprecating' this method overall - the USB converters, such as Soarer's or dfj's, are much preferable in almost every way. They are simple to assemble and program and simple to use. While not cheap, they are definitely inexpensive.
            « Last Edit: Mon, 22 August 2011, 23:28:19 by kishy »
            kishy.dyndns.org is now KISHY.CA

            "AT Model F". Not "Model F AT", "F AT", or "Model AT F". Just "AT Model F".
            Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
            Want to learn about the Kishsaver?

            Offline kishy

            • Thread Starter
            • Posts: 2867
            • Location: ON, Canada
            • Eye Bee M
              • http://kishy.ca/
            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #18 on: Mon, 22 August 2011, 23:25:04 »
            Just chiming back in - I compared against my own pinout as posted in the article, and the picture provided of the inside of the 1394167. It does appear that, with the ORIGINAL cable, colours are as follows:

            • Yellow: Clock
            • White: Ground
            • Red: Data
            • Black: +5V

            It sounds like you had it correct, if you matched it up according to that. Keep in mind the colours in the Compaq cable may not correspond properly; make sure you have the pin-to-colour info correct on that cable please.
            kishy.dyndns.org is now KISHY.CA

            "AT Model F". Not "Model F AT", "F AT", or "Model AT F". Just "AT Model F".
            Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
            Want to learn about the Kishsaver?

            Offline EverythingIBM

            • Posts: 3041
            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #19 on: Tue, 23 August 2011, 01:05:34 »
            Quote from: kishy;403630

            You should know better than this - these boards are quite usable on PS/2 or AT, with appropriate software hackery.

             
            Well I realized after I wrote all of that... this thread was about terminal Ms, not Fs. So rather than waste my writing, I just left it.

            And I didn't really know why it wouldn't have worked otherwise. Supposedly some terminal Ms weren't PS/2 compatible? Of course when dealing with IBM you have hoards of models.
            Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

            Offline kishy

            • Thread Starter
            • Posts: 2867
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              • http://kishy.ca/
            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #20 on: Tue, 23 August 2011, 01:12:22 »
            Quote from: EverythingIBM;403655
            Well I realized after I wrote all of that... this thread was about terminal Ms, not Fs. So rather than waste my writing, I just left it.

            And I didn't really know why it wouldn't have worked otherwise. Supposedly some terminal Ms weren't PS/2 compatible? Of course when dealing with IBM you have hoards of models.

            Terminal M, terminal F, makes no difference - if it's for a compatible terminal type, good to go.

            Some of both, certainly, are utterly useless without serious hacks. None of the ones we commonly stumble upon qualify as such.
            kishy.dyndns.org is now KISHY.CA

            "AT Model F". Not "Model F AT", "F AT", or "Model AT F". Just "AT Model F".
            Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
            Want to learn about the Kishsaver?

            Offline Ralphies

            • Posts: 3
            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #21 on: Tue, 23 August 2011, 04:14:11 »
            Thanks for the replies everyone!

            I have checked the compac to IBM wires again and "unfortunately" they are correct, so a shame it doesn't work :(

            Greetings

            Offline edada

            • Posts: 24
            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #22 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 05:27:24 »
            my 2 cents :
            Quote
            First, use the search engine of your preference to search for your keyboard's part number (for example, "1386887"). Then, look through the result summaries looking for a 4-digit number...in most cases a 4 digit number in a search result for one of these keyboards is the terminal type (for example, 3179, 3192, 3488...etc). What can be particularly helpful is resellers who say, for example, "1386887 IBM KEYBOARD FOR 3179 TERMINAL" or something to that effect.
            This search gave me zero results with some azerty parts number.

            So I searched for "IBM terminal keyboard", and supposed that parts with the same 5 firsts numbers are physically identical, except for the layout.

            Wouldn't it be possible to determine if a keyboard is suitable by looking at the connector type ?

            Offline kishy

            • Thread Starter
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              • http://kishy.ca/
            122-key Terminal Keyboard Conversion (to AT, PS/2)
            « Reply #23 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 10:43:27 »
            It seems that way for the DIN connector, but the modular connector ("RJ") ones may be a bit more variable. As far as I know IBM's only application of those for keyboards was for these, yes.

            It's fair to assume based on connector you'd be OK. The part number pattern is really just nuts anyway. In most cases the last 2-3 digits represent a specific region or layout, so you're right that partial numbers can be used.
            kishy.dyndns.org is now KISHY.CA

            "AT Model F". Not "Model F AT", "F AT", or "Model AT F". Just "AT Model F".
            Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
            Want to learn about the Kishsaver?