Author Topic: Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"  (Read 31835 times)

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Offline WhiteRice

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« on: Sat, 29 January 2011, 08:49:49 »
Quote
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A sleek all-black finish and added rubber side grips for enhanced handling, the Black Edition is a tribute to a legacy of ownage, a celebration for 5 years of every gamer’s victory thanks to their trusty DeathAdder.

The Razer DeathAdder™ is the weapon of choice for gamers seeking a combination of comfort and unbridled gaming precision. Enjoy extended gaming sessions in comfort with its right-handed ergonomic form factor crafted for the world of competitive gaming; and when the difference between victory and defeat is determined between heartbeats, the 3500dpi Razer Precision™ 3.5G infrared sensor translates your every movement into frags with pinpoint accuracy.

Link

I think I'm gonna pick this up.

DISCOUNT

Quote from: BababooeyHTJ;287038
I already ordered one. A deathadder with non-slippery sides would be the perfect mouse for me. If you do decide to pick one up here are a couple of coupons and they do stack so you can use them both.

Quote
Coupon codes:
RZRFRSH1PUS - Free Shipping
RZH1GHF1V3 - $5 Off
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 February 2011, 22:44:35 by WhiteRice »

Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 29 January 2011, 09:33:18 »
I love this mouse... i have purchased ton of mice in the past and apart from a couple mice from logitech the deathadder is by bar my favorite one.  I think it has something to do with the over all length of the mouse; i just dont like a short mouse.  I just purchased my 2nd deathadder a few months ago or i would pick up one of these too.
/// Current
Leopold 87 White MX | Filco 104 Brown | BlackWidow | WhiteWidow  |  TG3 Deck | 2x NIB  Dell AT101W | NIB  Dell QuietKey | IBM 3278 | Logitech NetPlay | Logitech G15 v2 | Saitek Eclipse v1 | Apple A1314 | Logitech K700
/// Past
HHKB Pro 2 | Realforce 86UB

Offline microsoft windows

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 29 January 2011, 13:01:46 »
"Black Edition"? I don't buy computer mice from racists! Time to sue!
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Offline guilleguillaume

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 29 January 2011, 18:07:42 »
Quote
and added rubber side grips for enhanced handling

The only think why this mouse will be better than the other DA it's THIS.

Offline CeeSA

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 29 January 2011, 18:11:36 »
i am only missing the profiles for the deathadder in the driver software....
beside this the DA 1800 is one of the best

Offline BababooeyHTJ

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 29 January 2011, 18:58:18 »
I already ordered one. A deathadder with non-slippery sides would be the perfect mouse for me. If you do decide to pick one up here are a couple of coupons and they do stack so you can use them both.

Quote
Coupon codes:
RZRFRSH1PUS - Free Shipping
RZH1GHF1V3 - $5 Off

Offline TexasFlood

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 29 January 2011, 19:37:37 »
Quote from: WhiteRice;286852
Show Image

Quote from: microsoft windows;286938
"Black Edition"? I don't buy computer mice from racists! Time to sue!
You're right, AC/DC should sue!

« Last Edit: Sat, 29 January 2011, 19:39:45 by TexasFlood »

Offline TexasFlood

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 29 January 2011, 19:40:13 »
Quote from: WhiteRice;286852
Show Image


Quote from: microsoft windows;286938
"Black Edition"? I don't buy computer mice from racists! Time to sue!

You're right, AC/DC should sue!


Offline lootbag

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 29 January 2011, 22:21:03 »
this mouse looks good.
the only thing I don't like about my deathadder is the shiny plastic.
I would buy but... I now have an L-trac and Evoluent o___-'

Offline Brodie337

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 29 January 2011, 22:47:07 »
After working for a store that sells Razer, I've gotta say I won't be buying one. We have a noticeably higher failure rate with Razer, as opposed to Logitech or Microsoft, maybe twice to three times as often.

Offline hfcobra

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 30 January 2011, 23:05:06 »
i am a logitech dude, but this does look pretty awesome i have to say
Own/Love: REɅLFORCE 87UB EK Edition 45g

Have owned/used: Realforce 103-UB, XArmor U9BL, Filco Majestouch 104-key with Cherry MX Blues, Browns, and Reds, Steelseries 6gv2, Leopold with Browns

Offline WhiteRice

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 01 February 2011, 22:43:19 »
Quote from: BababooeyHTJ;287038
I already ordered one. A deathadder with non-slippery sides would be the perfect mouse for me. If you do decide to pick one up here are a couple of coupons and they do stack so you can use them both.
Awesome dude thanks!

Offline manfaux

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 01 February 2011, 23:28:13 »
Quote from: Brodie337;287115
After working for a store that sells Razer, I've gotta say I won't be buying one. We have a noticeably higher failure rate with Razer, as opposed to Logitech or Microsoft, maybe twice to three times as often.



My experience has been quite the contrary, I've owned four Razer mice: a krait bought in 2006, which is still going strong as of today.

a diamondback bought in 2007, died last year, but it was a seller refurbished item which I got for $15.

got a deathadder in 2009, and an abyssus last year, both of them working just fine.

Offline Brodie337

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 02 February 2011, 01:12:02 »
Quote from: manfaux;288653
My experience has been quite the contrary, I've owned four Razer mice: a krait bought in 2006, which is still going strong as of today.

a diamondback bought in 2007, died last year, but it was a seller refurbished item which I got for $15.

got a deathadder in 2009, and an abyssus last year, both of them working just fine.


Yeah, its just an observation based on the returns I see at work... I should dig up some actual fail rates from our system if I can.

Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 02 February 2011, 11:38:57 »
Quote from: kalrykh;287386
I've got a deathadder.  There's just something about the shape that's not quite right.  So I went back to my older Habu.  Whatever is wrong with the deathadder's shape is not present in the Habu, although they've got very similar ergonomics.  The Habu looks better anyway :P


i noticed this as well... i got over it after a while but i do still like the shape of the habu better but my habu is dead and i really hated the "clear rubber"  section of the mouse.

/// Current
Leopold 87 White MX | Filco 104 Brown | BlackWidow | WhiteWidow  |  TG3 Deck | 2x NIB  Dell AT101W | NIB  Dell QuietKey | IBM 3278 | Logitech NetPlay | Logitech G15 v2 | Saitek Eclipse v1 | Apple A1314 | Logitech K700
/// Past
HHKB Pro 2 | Realforce 86UB

Offline squarebox

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 02 February 2011, 13:41:37 »
Got mine...







I love the new Razer Deathadder Black Edition.
The top is a very smooth painted plastic.
The side have rubber similar to the Steelseries Xai.
If u like the Xai material and Deathadder shape, this is the answer.

The rubber size are questionable imo; who know whether it will last or not.
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Offline Lethal Squirrel

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 02 February 2011, 22:00:32 »
Quick tip. If you don't like the glossy sides, just take apart your mouse and sand the sides with some wet sanding paper under running water. the results are pretty good as you can tell from the picture. (sorry, shot with iphone)
« Last Edit: Wed, 02 February 2011, 22:35:21 by Lethal Squirrel »

Offline hfcobra

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 02 February 2011, 23:36:19 »
i kinda wish logitech made a deathadder with a 5700 dpi laser, i like the shape but not the brand and i am used to the higher sensitivity   :P
Own/Love: REɅLFORCE 87UB EK Edition 45g

Have owned/used: Realforce 103-UB, XArmor U9BL, Filco Majestouch 104-key with Cherry MX Blues, Browns, and Reds, Steelseries 6gv2, Leopold with Browns

Offline manfaux

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 03 February 2011, 00:26:09 »
Quote from: hfcobra;289142
i kinda wish logitech made a deathadder with a 5700 dpi laser, i like the shape but not the brand and i am used to the higher sensitivity   :P


that'll be the G500.

Offline hfcobra

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 03 February 2011, 18:42:12 »
Quote from: manfaux;289157
that'll be the G500.


thats what i have   :P  but it doesnt look like they feel the same, i have never had a deathadder though, so i would not know for sure
Own/Love: REɅLFORCE 87UB EK Edition 45g

Have owned/used: Realforce 103-UB, XArmor U9BL, Filco Majestouch 104-key with Cherry MX Blues, Browns, and Reds, Steelseries 6gv2, Leopold with Browns

Offline Lethal Squirrel

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 04 February 2011, 09:33:37 »
I used to have the g500, I traded it for the deathadder that i have pictured above. The difference is HUGE. I hated the the feel of the g500. the sides are like sandpaper and it never really fit my hand right the side where your pinky and ring finger go was so freakin' awkward. and I'm not a huge fan of Logitech's weird scroll wheels. But I Don't really like razer too much either. Logitech does have far better build quality.

Offline Bern

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 04 February 2011, 12:07:53 »
Deathadder is the best mouse I've owned.  Curious about the rubber sides.  The glossy ones bothered me at first but I don't even notice them anymore.  Guess I've changed how I hold my mouse a little bit.

Offline NKRO

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 05 February 2011, 02:22:13 »
Got mine in the mail a few days ago after having done extensive research on mice before making the decision. Just happened to be very fortunate timing that I was looking for a mouse right when this was announced.

My previous mouse was a Razer Pro|Click which was basically a white & grey Diamondback targeted at Mac users, and before that I have had various other "high-end" gaming mice from Logitech and others. I have tried the highest DPI laser mice, "lag-free" wireless mice (they are not) and everything in-between. As much as I wanted to get rid of the cord, I've yet to find a wireless mouse that didn't have some kind of glaring issue.

My biggest complaint about the Pro|Click was the build quality - specifically the cord used - and ultimately that is where the mouse failed. The rubber coating on the buttons also started to discolour over time (not an accumulation of dirt, it seemed to be age related as you see with some plastics) and eventually the coating started wearing off. I loved the low profile, light weight and overall shape of the mouse, though the side buttons on it were fairly useless. I also really disliked the extremely bright blue LED inside it, and there was no option to turn it off.


As I said at the beginning of my post, I did a lot of research before making this purchase, and the end result was that there are almost no mice out there that do not have sensor problems. There are no laser mice out there that don't have tracking issues  of some kind, and the majority of newer ones either suffer from the sensor itself having 5-10% acceleration built into the hardware, or negative acceleration. This might be tolerable for desktop work (though I would argue against that even) but it is totally unsuitable for gaming where you need 1:1 control. Laser mice still also seem to have problems tracking on some surface types. I had started out planning to get a Steelseries Xai (or possibly Ikari) but they both have acceleration due to the sensor used.

In the end, it seemed that if you want a mouse with good performance, it must be an optical mouse, and of the optical mice that don't have any tracking issues (surface problems, positive/negative acceleration, prediction, ability to cope with high speeds etc.) the Deathadder with the latest firmware (the earlier firmwares did have issues) is the highest DPI by some margin. The majority of others were 400 DPI or 800 DPI.

I had initially set out to not buy another Razer mouse - I was happy with the performance of the Pro|Click, but not the build quality. I was put off by the looks of the Deathadder - shiny black plastic is something I despise, despite its popularity on electronics in recent years, and while I believe you now get the option to disable the lighting, I'd rather the mouse did not have it to begin with, so the Deathadder Black Edition seemed perfect:
  • The rubberised coating on the top is gone, so there is no chance for that to wear off over time as it did on my Pro|Click.
  • The glossy black plastic on the sides has been replaced so it will not show up fingerprints and grips better.
  • No LEDs, and a nice black scrollwheel rather than the cheap looking clear rubber that is prone to discolouration over time. Unlike most optical mice, Razer use infra-red LEDs for the sensor, so there is no visible light from the bottom of it either.
  • A thicker, braided cord that will hopefully be more durable.
So now that I have the mouse in my hands and have used it a couple of days, here are my thoughts on it.

Firstly, it looks really nice. It's a far more refined design than anything that has ever come from Razer, rather than looking like a traditional "gaming" mouse with too many buttons, crazy designs and glowing lights.



I love the surfaces of this mouse. The top is painted plastic which has a nice feel to it. It's a matte finish which almost seems like a soft-touch finish. Razer have been doing this for a while now, but I really like the fact that the top of the mouse is a single surface rather than having the buttons made out of separate pieces of plastic. That said, there are a couple of slight bumps in the surface of the buttons that feel like either slight paint defects or perhaps from the moulding process that wasn't properly cleaned up. It's too small to photograph, but it's just a couple of points where your fingers "catch" if your move them over the surface slowly.

The "rubber" on the sides is not the same as the grippy rubber that Razer normally use on the top of their mice/buttons, but rather it is a thin soft-touch coating that is better than I was expecting - I would have been disappointed if it was the more grippy rubber that they normally use, as I don't think it holds up over time.

The wheel has solid detents which I personally like, and I feel like they have the tension just right on it. It's more suited for gaming where you usually want to know exactly how many positions it's moved when you rotated the wheel, rather than desktop use. I know a lot of people prefer free-scrolling wheels, and while they're nice for surfing the web or reading documents, I hate them for gaming. Personally I use a middle click when scrolling web pages or documents rather than the wheel.


The buttons all use mechanical switches, and I feel like they have the position/tension just about perfect on all but the right mouse button.

There is enough tension on all of them that you can rest your fingers on any of the buttons and you are not going to accidentally press the button. On the left mouse button it takes almost no force beyond that to actuate it, which lets you keep clicking extremely quickly. Of course it's not important for desktop use, where I can't think of any reason to go beyond a triple-click, but it's great for gaming.

I feel like there is perhaps slightly too much tension on the right mouse button though, as I find it difficult to keep up with the speed that I can click the left mouse button unless I'm lifting my other fingers and actually focused on it.

The middle click is solid and is not really tuned for rapid clicking - it's set so that there is a solid click there and you will not accidentally click it when scrolling quickly - a problem I have had with previous mice including the Pro|Click.

The side buttons are a great size & shape, in the perfect position for your thumb. Again, these are tuned to avoid accidental clicks rather than rapid clicks in succession, which may or may not suit you. (for me, I only really want that on the LMB/RMB)

I realise that this is supposed to be an ergonomic mouse rather than an ambidextrous one, but I feel like they could have put a single button on the right-hand side of the mouse without interfering with the design.

With the Pro|Click there was a forward/back button rocker on either side of the mouse, and they were really only there to make the mouse ambidextrous, rather than all seven buttons being usable in either hand, but I think a single button would work here.

Something else that I think they should be praised for is that the mouse seems very well "balanced". While I generally prefer ambidextrous mice (for what it's worth I'm actually left-handed but use my right hand with mice) and I especially don't like overly sculpted mice like a lot of Logitechs and the Steelseries Ikari, it fits nicely into your hand and while it's a minor thing, even at 3500 DPI where the mouse is at its most sensitive, I can press any of the buttons on it without the cursor moving at all. On a lot of mice either the tension on the buttons is wrong, or the grip isn't quite right, and when you press at least some, if not all, of the buttons, the cursor jumps a bit.


The software for the mouse seems fine, though I should point out that I have only tried the mouse out on Windows 7 so far, I have not tried it on a Mac.

1000Hz "ultrapolling" seems to work just fine, which was a nice surprise for me. (note: if you are using a 32-bit OS, it is best to use 500Hz) When my Pro|Click died a few weeks ago, I was back using an old Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical. This is a 400 DPI mouse (which was painfully slow) that has serious tracking issues when moving it quickly if it's running at the standard 125Hz polling rate of USB. I tried overclocking the port but when running at 500 or 1000Hz, the mouse wouldn't report anything over 200Hz. When set to 250Hz that worked correctly, but wasn't enough to fix the tracking issues I was having. (the mouse couldn't keep up) I assumed that this meant either my USB ports couldn't do anything over 250Hz, or it was a result of the active extension I'm using. (the PC tower is kept outside this room)


The Razer software is a little confusing with the way they lay things out though.

There is an acceleration option that always says "Acceleration On" and I thought it was permanently turned on but actually what happens is that when you click it, the "On" glows, and only then is it enabled.

There is also a sensitivity option that ranges from 1-10 in addition to the Windows sensitivity options. For 1:1 tracking, you must have Windows sensitivity set to the mid-point (6/11 in the Windows control panel, I didn't touch it in the Razer one) with "Enhance Pointer Precision" disabled. (also in the windows control panel) I would also recommend installing the MarkC Mouse Acceleration Fix if you are on Windows 7. This simply removes the acceleration curve that the "Enhance Pointer Precision" option enables, as some older games will turn on that option even if you have it disabled.

In the Razer drivers, the sensitivity setting should be as high as it can go, and you need to make sure that acceleration is off. (no glowing text)

To adjust the speed of your mouse, you change the DPI setting. (really, it should be labelled CPI, or counts per inch) If you change any of the other sensitivity options, you lose 1:1 control. (1 mouse count = 1 pixel movement)

This might seem limiting, but you have 450, 900, 1800 and 3500 DPI to choose from, and usually one of them is fine for most people. Some mice offer more variability - some Steelseries mice allow you to go from 100-5001 CPI (DPI and CPI are interchangeable) in 1 CPI increments, but those are not true CPI adjustments, and are interpolated which means you do not have true 1:1 control. (the only "real" CPI settings on them are at multiples of 90 CPI)

There are five profile settings you can configure in the drivers as well, and these can be switched by a button on the bottom of the mouse. As far as I can see, this only stores your polling rate, DPI, and button config settings, not any of the sensitivity options.
I don't know if this is stored on the mouse itself (it would be great if it was) or if it is simply a software feature. I haven't switched between machines to try this out yet.


When set up like this, mouse tracking is essentially perfect. You have true 1:1 control and there is no positive or negative acceleration, no skipping/jumping on any of the surfaces I have tried. I have stuck with the smooth side of the Razer Pro|Pad as my surface of choice, though I am considering something like Goliathus mat if I can find something of a similar size that can take my keyboard and mouse, without all the branding on it, as I'm hoping it will help dampen the noise of the keyboard.

The only potential issue for some people is that the lift-off distance is higher than some of the older optical mice out there (specifically the 1800 DPI Deathadder 3G) though it is still lower than any laser mouse I have tried. Personally though, with a 3500 DPI sensor, I have not found the need to lift the mouse, and I generally find that less comfortable to do with ergonomic-style mice rather than ambidextrous ones. I found myself doing it all the time with the 400 DPI WMO, and have never done it with this so far.



I must say that I am surprised at hfcobra wanting one of these with a 5700 DPI laser sensor. Laser sensor issues aside, 5700 DPI is extremely sensitive when the mouse is properly set up for 1:1 control. With the Deathadder set to 3500 DPI, It only requires just over half an inch to go from one edge of the screen to the other at 1920x1080. When I first got it, I wasn't sure about even using it at 3500 DPI because of this. It's so sensitive that it can be difficult to move the mouse with a high degree of precision. That said, I am adjusting to it after a few days of use, but at 5700 DPI you have a third of an inch to go from edge-to-edge with the mouse.

As mentioned previously, I would actually have liked to see a button for less-frequently used actions on the right of the mouse, and I think a button to toggle between a high and low DPI setting would have been great there, rather than the button on the underside that toggles between five profiles. (if only it had been an even number and I could have just duplicated the settings so it would go high/low/high/low)


In summary, it isn't quite perfect, but this is definitely one of the best mice on the market, and one of a very small number that has essentially perfect tracking. I love the look of it, and I hope it does well so that Razer will consider making more products that have a more under-stated look rather than the traditional in-your-face gaming style they normally use.


And now, after suffering from using the Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical for a few weeks and seeing how much of a difference it has made, I think I owe it to myself to start looking for a nice mechanical keyboard to replace the horrible Microsoft Wireless Multimedia Keyboard this PC has been stuck with for years...
« Last Edit: Sat, 05 February 2011, 02:31:51 by NKRO »

Offline manfaux

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 07 February 2011, 05:59:39 »
Quote from: Brodie337;288673
Yeah, its just an observation based on the returns I see at work... I should dig up some actual fail rates from our system if I can.


Those would be great info if you have access to them :)

Razer's CS is crap though, all they sent me was a freakin' RMA number that I need to include in my return of my defective product, they didn't even provide me a shipping label. wtf.

Offline BababooeyHTJ

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 07 February 2011, 15:43:41 »
I just got my mouse today and so far I'm not really sure that the grip is any better on this mouse than the original design.

Quote from: manfaux;291142
Those would be great info if you have access to them :)

Razer's CS is crap though, all they sent me was a freakin' RMA number that I need to include in my return of my defective product, they didn't even provide me a shipping label. wtf.


I've done quite a few rmas and only once or twice have I had the manufacturer pay for shipping and even then it's usually after a screw up. If you think that razer is bad don't ever buy a steelseries product. The past two products that I have bought from them have been a nightmare.

Offline manfaux

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 07 February 2011, 18:22:58 »
Quote from: BababooeyHTJ;291405
I just got my mouse today and so far I'm not really sure that the grip is any better on this mouse than the original design.



I've done quite a few rmas and only once or twice have I had the manufacturer pay for shipping and even then it's usually after a screw up. If you think that razer is bad don't ever buy a steelseries product. The past two products that I have bought from them have been a nightmare.


I'm on a SS mouse as we speak.. hopefully it doesn't go wrong in the future.

Last time Logitech just sent me a replacement straight up when my wireless mouse started double clicking, didn't even bother with the return, that's what I call a good warranty.

Offline BababooeyHTJ

  • Posts: 169
Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 07 February 2011, 18:32:44 »
Quote from: manfaux;291473
I'm on a SS mouse as we speak.. hopefully it doesn't go wrong in the future.

Last time Logitech just sent me a replacement straight up when my wireless mouse started double clicking, didn't even bother with the return, that's what I call a good warranty.


I don't have any experience with Logitech but any one who I have heard about their customer service from has had nothing but good things to say.

I was actually referring to an Ikari laser too. They never responded to my trouble ticket while it was under warranty. I eventually gave up. I kind of wanted to try cherry blacks so when they had the 20% off promo code I decided to pick up a G6v2. It came with a couple of keys that stuck. It took them four days to even respond to my trouble ticket this time and I have to pay to send it back. I threw in the non-working Ikari in the same box with a note which I also left with the person online.
« Last Edit: Mon, 07 February 2011, 18:40:43 by BababooeyHTJ »

Offline sawedust

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 07 February 2011, 20:13:55 »
I absolutely love my DeathAdder.

And to be honest, I'd still pick the black/blue and LED version over the Back in Black version.

It does look pretty sick though, I wouldn't mind having one as a backup!
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Offline godofdeath

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 07 February 2011, 20:42:16 »
i have both the deathadder (black ) and g500

i like the 5 different levels of dpi settings on the g500 so much more and i like the additional button u get that you can program. also love the hyper scrolling and whether or not you want to use it. adjustable weights is awesome.

death adder love the feel. hate the feel of the g500. the cord is shorter though. it fits better in my palm grip thing thouugh for the deathadder

Offline Shazb0t

  • Posts: 25
Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 08 February 2011, 17:11:43 »
Quote from: NKRO;290160
I had started out planning to get a Steelseries Xai (or possibly Ikari) but they both have acceleration due to the sensor used.

In the end, it seemed that if you want a mouse with good performance, it must be an optical mouse, and of the optical mice that don't have any tracking issues (surface problems, positive/negative acceleration, prediction, ability to cope with high speeds etc.)

The small acceleration present in the Xai is only noticeable in over the top large sweeps of the mouse.  Nothing that would affect aiming in a fps or anything like that.  It is a good mouse that is used by some pro fps gamers with and without sponsorships, you should try it sometime if you like to claw grip.
« Last Edit: Tue, 08 February 2011, 17:14:01 by Shazb0t »
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Offline Lophostrix

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 10 February 2011, 02:08:41 »
Hi GeekHack. I was thinking of getting this mouse and I was hoping someone could offer their opinion for me :)

I have used the Microsoft Intellimouse Optical for over 10 years (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=004), not to be confused with the Intellimouse Explorer (they have slightly different profiles I believe). I love everything about it (except for the bright red LED at the back). Lately though navigating around my 1920x1080 monitor has become a complete chore. I can't increase the Windows sensitivity any more without severely sacrificing precision (one more notch and the cursor only moves two pixels at a time). I want to add a second monitor and it might finally be time to upgrade to a higher sensitivity mouse.

The problem is I love the Intellimouse Optical form factor. I use the thumb and pinky buttons extensively, and I like how they are flush with the shell instead of popping out (compared to the DeathAdder). I like the texture on the scroll wheel and how the scrollwheel has discrete notches as you scroll it (some wheels scroll smoothly so it isn't intuitive when the wheel actuates). I like how the buttons take approximately the same amount of force no matter where you press them. I especially like that it doesn't use any gimmicky ergonomic tricks.

So with that in mind, I'm wondering if I could ever grow to like the DeathAdder as much as I like the Intellimouse. I use a hybrid palm/finger grip. I have smallish hands, so I tend to press the buttons farther back. I once used a Dell mouse that was a single plastic shell like the DeathAdder (compared to the separate buttons on the Intellimouse), and I couldn't even press the buttons without straining. The way my hand sat on the mouse caused my to click right at the fulcrum of the lever, and it was actually painful to use. The evenness of the Intellimouse buttons is something I don't think I could give up. Does the DeathAdder share this property?

I like to hold the mouse with my hand at an angle, pointing away from me. I place both my middle and ring finger on the right mouse button, and I usually mouse my middle finger to press both the middle button and the right button. As a result, my middle finger rests diagonally across the right button, and I press the right button as close to the scroll wheel as possible rather than in the center. When I look at the profile of the DeathAdder, the right mouse button has a depression meant to hold the finger in place, but I am worried that this won't be compatible with the way I hold the mouse.

Has anyone else here moved from the Intellimouse Optical to the DeathAdder? Opinions? Every other mouse I've tried hurts my hand after extended use, so I want to be very cautious before I make a purchase.

Offline NKRO

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 10 February 2011, 08:22:44 »
Quote from: Lophostrix;292729
Hi GeekHack. I was thinking of getting this mouse and I was hoping someone could offer their opinion for me :)

I have used the Microsoft Intellimouse Optical for over 10 years (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=004), not to be confused with the Intellimouse Explorer (they have slightly different profiles I believe). I love everything about it (except for the bright red LED at the back). Lately though navigating around my 1920x1080 monitor has become a complete chore. I can't increase the Windows sensitivity any more without severely sacrificing precision (one more notch and the cursor only moves two pixels at a time). I want to add a second monitor and it might finally be time to upgrade to a higher sensitivity mouse.

The problem is I love the Intellimouse Optical form factor. I use the thumb and pinky buttons extensively, and I like how they are flush with the shell instead of popping out (compared to the DeathAdder). I like the texture on the scroll wheel and how the scrollwheel has discrete notches as you scroll it (some wheels scroll smoothly so it isn't intuitive when the wheel actuates). I like how the buttons take approximately the same amount of force no matter where you press them. I especially like that it doesn't use any gimmicky ergonomic tricks.

So with that in mind, I'm wondering if I could ever grow to like the DeathAdder as much as I like the Intellimouse. I use a hybrid palm/finger grip. I have smallish hands, so I tend to press the buttons farther back. I once used a Dell mouse that was a single plastic shell like the DeathAdder (compared to the separate buttons on the Intellimouse), and I couldn't even press the buttons without straining. The way my hand sat on the mouse caused my to click right at the fulcrum of the lever, and it was actually painful to use. The evenness of the Intellimouse buttons is something I don't think I could give up. Does the DeathAdder share this property?

I like to hold the mouse with my hand at an angle, pointing away from me. I place both my middle and ring finger on the right mouse button, and I usually mouse my middle finger to press both the middle button and the right button. As a result, my middle finger rests diagonally across the right button, and I press the right button as close to the scroll wheel as possible rather than in the center. When I look at the profile of the DeathAdder, the right mouse button has a depression meant to hold the finger in place, but I am worried that this won't be compatible with the way I hold the mouse.

Has anyone else here moved from the Intellimouse Optical to the DeathAdder? Opinions? Every other mouse I've tried hurts my hand after extended use, so I want to be very cautious before I make a purchase.
I have never been a fan of "ergonomic" shaped mice, nor mice that require a palm grip compared to a finger grip. (Logitech etc.) I generally prefer mice to have an ambidextrous design and a low profile like the Razer Diamondback. I feel that the Deathadder is a good balance between the two. The mouse is relatively light, and glides effortlessly across my mouse pad, moving it around with more of a fingertip-style grip is no problem at all.

The buttons are tensioned just right so they're very easy to press, even quite far back on the mouse, and the wheel has good-sized notches in it and solid detents rather than free-scrolling.

My only concern would be that the mouse arch may be higher than you prefer. I would like it if the mouse was slightly flatter, but am used to it now.


For what it's worth, mouse sensitivity must be at 6/11 for per-pixel accuracy in Windows. Any higher and you're skipping pixels. You must also have "enhance pointer precision" disabled.
7/11 = 1.5px per movement
8/11 = 2.0px per movement. This will give you the speed of an 800 DPI mouse, but without per-pixel precision.
9/11 = 2.5px and so on.

Similarly, if you lower the sensitivity, Windows starts throwing away mouse movements.

To increase the speed while keeping per-pixel accuracy, you need a higher DPI/CPI mouse.


I cannot say for sure that you will like this mouse, but I think there is a good chance that you will.

Offline WhiteRice

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 10 February 2011, 18:08:14 »
I got mine, I haven't had a chance to plug it in. I love the way it feels though.

Offline NKRO

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 11 February 2011, 15:21:24 »
Quote from: kalrykh;293559
Same form, adjustable dpi.  Get a habu.
The Habu and Deathadder are virtually the same shape, except the Habu has separate buttons rather than a single piece top-shell.



The sensor in the Habu is a 2000 DPI laser that is much worse than the 3500 DPI Optical sensor that the Deathadder uses. Laser mice in general are poor, but the older laser mice are much worse.

Offline manfaux

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 11 February 2011, 17:43:18 »
i dont know why the deathadder is so heavy, i mean it doesn't have 10 side buttons and those fancy Logitech scroll wheels, right? The black edition is a great idea and all but I just can't live with its weight.

Offline Arc'xer

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 11 February 2011, 19:31:42 »
Quote from: manfaux;293657
i dont know why the deathadder is so heavy, i mean it doesn't have 10 side buttons and those fancy Logitech scroll wheels, right? The black edition is a great idea and all but I just can't live with its weight.

Deathadder weighs around 104-107g without the cable. It's not as heavy as some other palm grip mice. Strange you find it heavy(Ikari optical is 98g and Ikari laser is 103g), you sure it's not the cable interfering with the movements and making it feel like it's heavier when in fact it's more resistive?

Or the mice feet are of lower quality and or possibly size?(ikari does have larger feet) maybe the mousepad is worn and your feeling the resistance more so with the newer feet?

Offline hfcobra

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 11 February 2011, 23:09:38 »
why are laser sensors so bad compared to optical?  I thought that lasers were better....   at least for the most part
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Offline NKRO

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #37 on: Sat, 12 February 2011, 05:37:44 »
Quote from: hfcobra;293827
why are laser sensors so bad compared to optical?  I thought that lasers were better....   at least for the most part
There are a number of reasons why laser is not a good choice.

1. They were made primarily with the goal of being able to track on high gloss surfaces like glass without a mouse pad. As a result they do not track as well as optical sensors on other surfaces like the plastic/aluminium/cloth pads most people/gamers use.

2. Earlier laser models at least, had quite a lot of prediction built into them. This is less of a problem with gaming-oriented laser mice but is still something to be wary of. That means the mouse will try to snap your movements to straight lines for example. Most people cannot draw a perfectly straight line with a mouse by hand but with a lot of mice it predicts that is what you are trying to do and straightens your movements. Especially when gaming, this can have you fighting your mouse for control when it tries to move in a perfectly straight line and you don't want it to.

3. High lift-off distance. Most laser mice have a very high lift-off distance. That means if you lift the mouse off the pad, it can still track as you lift it off and move it back to the centre of your pad, working against what you're trying to do. A lot of laser mice also jump position when you put them down as well.

4. Jitter. As mentioned before, laser mice don't track well on some surfaces, but jitter means that the mouse will sometimes jump small amounts when it encounters minor imperfections in the surface that you're mousing on, where an optical sensor would ignore it, even a high quality gaming pad. In effect, laser can actually track the surface you're using too well, making your mouse move in ways you did not intend it to.

5. Too-high DPI/CPI. Not strictly a problem, but virtually no-one needs the 5000+ DPI that are offered on laser mice. When set up properly, that means it will move 5000 pixels per inch. Unless you're running a triple-screen setup, that means you go from one edge of your screen to another in a fraction of an inch, and even then most people need more than an inch edge-to-edge for precise control. This results in people running their mouse at 5000+ DPI (why not use all the DPI you paid for?) and lowering the driver sensitivity which means that you no longer have 1:1 control and your movements are interpolated. The more recent laser sensors max out at 5040 CPI (even though many interpolate this to 5700 DPI) and can be adjusted in 90 CPI steps. In the driver many then offer the "standard" 400, 800, 1600, 3200 DPI steps to choose from, none of which are true readings from the sensor and are all interpolated.

6. Acceleration problems with the sensors. Most laser mice now have 5–10% acceleration built into the hardware that no-one seems to have disabled. This means that how far your cursor travels not only depends on the distance you move the mouse, but also how quickly you moved it. Ideally you would have no acceleration at all, so that moving the mouse exactly one inch moves it as many pixels as your mouse DPI setting. So if you had a 400 DPI mouse, moving it one inch should move the cursor 400 pixels no matter how quickly you move it. This is especially important for gaming where you want to be able to quickly move the mouse to look around you and then return to exactly where you were looking before with a flick of the wrist. A lot of them also suffer from negative acceleration with fast movements.


They are definitely improving, but there are still no laser mice that track as well as the best optical sensors (the Deathadder sensor is one of the few sensors that tracks "perfectly") and without things like acceleration or prediction issues. I'm not sure they will ever sort out laser mice, simply because you will still get jitter from them picking up on imperfections in the mousing surface that can cause the cursor to jump around.

Offline manfaux

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #38 on: Sat, 12 February 2011, 08:58:47 »
according to steelseries, lasers are supposed to have better life-off distance:

http://www.fragyou.net/2007/11/29/lift-distance-on-ikari-laser-and-ikari-optical/

Offline NKRO

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #39 on: Sat, 12 February 2011, 09:23:00 »
Quote from: manfaux;293944
according to steelseries, lasers are supposed to have better life-off distance:

http://www.fragyou.net/2007/11/29/lift-distance-on-ikari-laser-and-ikari-optical/
I've heard that their numbers are very optimistic at best, and only apply to certain surfaces. Still doesn't fix the acceleration built into the sensor that Steelseries use in their mice, or jitter which is inherent to all laser technology. I have heard a lot of complaints about Steelseries' drivers as well.

Notice how on one hand Steelseries advertise the Xai as working on any mousing surface, but then strongly recommend you only use a specific pad designed just for that mouse, and in the same sentence they say how you can adjust prediction and jitter correction rather than advertising that their mouse doesn't have/need it.

I had started out looking to get a Xai, or possibly an Ikari due to many people saying it's the most comfortable mouse they've ever used, but after spending a lot of time researching, the Deathadder seemed like the best choice—certainly it seems to have the best sensor of any mouse you can buy today. Apparently the 3G 1800 DPI Optical sensors Razer have used in the past were better for lift-off distance though, if 1800 DPI is enough for you.
« Last Edit: Sat, 12 February 2011, 09:29:35 by NKRO »

Offline Lophostrix

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #40 on: Sat, 12 February 2011, 12:06:52 »
Does the DeathAdder have the same acceleration issues you described?

(I actually don't mind the Windows acceleration curve [maybe I'm just used to it], but I tried a mouse once with hardware acceleration and it was awful.)

Offline hfcobra

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #41 on: Sat, 12 February 2011, 13:53:09 »
i dont think that the G500 has these issues but if it does what does it have?  I have not noticed anything at least   :P    And i use the 5700DPi  with standard settings on the OS and games so i am used to the super high sensitivity.  Then again i dont play many shooters.
Own/Love: REɅLFORCE 87UB EK Edition 45g

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Offline NKRO

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 12 February 2011, 16:22:16 »
Quote from: Lophostrix;294024
Does the DeathAdder have the same acceleration issues you described?

(I actually don't mind the Windows acceleration curve [maybe I'm just used to it], but I tried a mouse once with hardware acceleration and it was awful.)
It is one of the very few mice that does not have any of the issues I described above. No acceleration built into the hardware, no negative acceleration when used at high speeds, can track at very high speeds and on most surfaces without issue. (jitter etc.)

It is probably just familiarity with the windows acceleration curve that means it doesn't bother you, and it will feel strange without it at first. It also depends on the DPI of your mouse. With a mouse set to a very high DPI it is almost required so that you can still maintain fine control over the mouse cursor by moving it at slow speeds.


To have true 1:1 control of the mouse cursor, acceleration must be disabled.
DPI is really a misnomer, the term for mice should be CPI—counts per inch.
What this means is that for every inch you move the mouse, it will send that many counts to the computer.

So with a 400 CPI mouse, if you move it an inch, it sends 400 counts to the computer.
If there is no acceleration and the drivers are set up correctly, this means that for every count the mouse sends to the computer, it moves the cursor one pixel. So if you move a 400 CPI mouse one inch, there will be 400 counts and the cursor will move exactly 400 pixels.

With 1:1 control and an 800 CPI mouse, it moves 800 pixels for every inch of movement and so on.
What I hope you are starting to realise, is that 5700 CPI is extremely high. The vast majority of monitors out there are 1920 pixels wide, or lower.

Without acceleration that gives you 0.33" (1920/5700=0.33…) for the range of movement that will cover your entire screen. No matter how hard you tried, it would be virtually impossible to move the mouse cursor a single pixel in a direction because it is so sensitive.

This is why it is less important to have a very high CPI mouse, and more important to have one that tracks well and offers true 1:1 control.

Mouse acceleration does a few things.
1. With low CPI mice, it lets you move the cursor faster by moving the mouse quickly.
2. With high CPI mice, it lets you have finer control over the cursor by moving the mouse very slowly.

Both of these things sound pretty good, so why is acceleration bad? Because you lose 1:1 control.

Your mouse is no longer working at the CPI you set it to, and movements are unpredictable.

If you move the mouse an inch slowly, it might move you 200 pixels and if you move it quickly, it could move you 2000 pixels. (exaggerated for clarity)

If you are playing a first-person game, it means there is no way to guarantee where your aim is going to be.

Simplified for the ease of explanation:
Without acceleration, I can set it up so that for every inch I move the mouse, my view turns 90° every time. I can quickly check all around me and then get back to where I was looking before instantly without any hesitation. My view changes based on the distance that I moved the mouse, not the speed that I moved it at, and in a fast-paced game, that is very important. If I'm in an intense game, I'm probably going to be moving the mouse around pretty quickly. Without any acceleration, I can do this and still have things under control, because I always know exactly how far I have to move the mouse to do a 90° turn by feel. When your view is based on how quickly the mouse moves, you can easily get "disoriented" when you move the mouse slightly quicker or slower than you did the last time you tried to make a 90° turn for example.

It's not just relevant to first-person shooters, but that gives the clearest example of why you want your mouse movement based on the position of them mouse rather than how quickly you moved it there.

Without acceleration if I move the mouse an inch slowly, my view will turn 90° and do so with a high degree of accuracy. If I move the mouse an inch rapidly, my view snaps around 90° almost instantly.

With acceleration if I move the mouse an inch slowly, I might only turn 40° and if I move the mouse an inch quickly, I might turn 140°. I have no way of easily getting back to my original position, or making rapid changes in direction/aim consistently.

Quote from: hfcobra;294065
i dont think that the G500 has these issues but if it does what does it have?  I have not noticed anything at least   :P    And i use the 5700DPi  with standard settings on the OS and games so i am used to the super high sensitivity.  Then again i dont play many shooters.
I have to imagine that there is something wrong with your settings if you are using the mouse at 5700 CPI without it jumping all over the screen, lacking any kind of control.

The sensor used in the G500 is the same as the Xai so it is 5040 CPI native, and can be adjusted in 90 CPI steps. That means when running it at 5700 CPI you are using interpolated data and do not have pixel-perfect precision.

If I remember correctly, the Logitech drivers only allow you to adjust in 100 DPI steps which means that 900, 1800, 2700, 3600 and 4500 DPI are the only true DPI steps available with that mouse and you should not use anything else. (if I am wrong, use any multiple of 90 up to 5040 that suits you if the drivers allow it)

That sensor does have positive acceleration built in, so you will not be able to get true 1:1 control, but you should definitely have the drivers set to use the Windows controls for pointer sensitivity—set it to 6/11 and disable enhanced pointer precision (acceleration)—and choose one of the above DPI settings. It won't be true 1:1 but the closest you can get. Use 500Hz polling on a 32-bit OS, 1000Hz on a 64-bit OS.

Offline Lophostrix

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 12 February 2011, 19:30:05 »
Thank you for the great information NKRO. The mouse I use is low D(C)PI (400) so I've relied on acceleration just to get from one end of the screen to the other. On the Macs at work, which have a different acceleration curve, I can barely click on anything without wanting to punch the screen (and there's no way to turn off the acceleration without external drivers!).

I will pick up the new Deathadder when it's back in stock. If it doesn't fit my hand, I suppose I can resell it for most of the value and feel better about what I already have.

Offline nmd

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #44 on: Sun, 13 February 2011, 08:46:51 »
Oh God that's such a sexy mouse... I used the DeathAdder 1800 for the longest time of any mouse. I just wish they didn't go with a braided cable for it and it would've been 10/10 so easily. Pretttty.

Offline Bullveyr

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #45 on: Mon, 14 February 2011, 03:14:06 »
Quote from: NKRO;293896
There are a number of reasons why laser is not a good choice.


I'm not saying that Laser is better than LED but your making general statements about specific sensors which makes Laser Sensors look worse than they really are.

Quote
2. Earlier laser models at least, had quite a lot of prediction built into them. This is less of a problem with gaming-oriented laser mice but is still something to be wary of. That means the mouse will try to snap your movements to straight lines for example. Most people cannot draw a perfectly straight line with a mouse by hand but with a lot of mice it predicts that is what you are trying to do and straightens your movements. Especially when gaming, this can have you fighting your mouse for control when it tries to move in a perfectly straight line and you don't want it to.

That has nothing to do with laser or LED/Optical but with the manufacturer of the sensor.
Avago had it in its sensors and because pretty much ever gaming grade mouse had a Laser Sensor from Avago every mouse had it.

But that's also true for LED/Optical, the only (gaming grade) mice that didn't have an Avago Sensor were the MS WMO/IME/IMO, they were the only mice that didn't have angle snapping (prediction).

As a side note, technically Angle Snapping doesn't predict anything.

Quote
3. High lift-off distance. Most laser mice have a very high lift-off distance. That means if you lift the mouse off the pad, it can still track as you lift it off and move it back to the centre of your pad, working against what you're trying to do. A lot of laser mice also jump position when you put them down as well.

Not really true, most Laser Sensors didn't have a higher LOD than the usuall Optical one from Avago.
Again the IMO/WMO/IME are an exeption with their pretty low but honestly they never could really compete with Avago Sensor inmax. tracking performnace.

Optical Sensors have a higher realtion between performance and LOD:

Quote
5. ...
The more recent laser sensors max out at 5040 CPI (even though many interpolate this to 5700 DPI) and can be adjusted in 90 CPI steps. In the driver many then offer the "standard" 400, 800, 1600, 3200 DPI steps to choose from, none of which are true readings from the sensor and are all interpolated.

It's not 100% clear if the 5700 CPI on the Logitech G9X/G700/G500 are interpolated, most likely they are not.
Logitechs version of the Avago ADNS-9500 has a different SROM with true 100 CPI steps.

Quote
6. Acceleration problems with the sensors. Most laser mice now have 5–10% acceleration built into the hardware that no-one seems to have disabled. ..

Specific issue of the ADNS-9500, has nothing to do with Laser Sensors in general.

PS: Depending on the surface the first Laser Sensor really used in gaming mice (ADNS-6010) is actually not really far from the so loved IME/WMO/IMO when it comes to max speed.
Quote from: NKRO;293952
I've heard that their numbers are very optimistic at best, and only apply to certain surfaces. Still doesn't fix the acceleration built into the sensor that Steelseries use in their mice, or jitter which is inherent to all laser technology. I have heard a lot of complaints about Steelseries' drivers as well.

The Ikari Laser really has a low LOD and doesn't have the pos. accel. issue of the Xai.

Jep the software of the Xai is far from perfect but you only need it for macros anyway.
No issues with the Ikari Software.

Quote
... and in the same sentence they say how you can adjust prediction and jitter correction rather than advertising that their mouse doesn't have/need it.

Less correction isn't automatically better dependant on the surface and some people actually prefer to have angle snapping on.

Quote
Apparently the 3G 1800 DPI Optical sensors Razer have used in the past were better for lift-off distance though, if 1800 DPI is enough for you.

The LOD of the original DA is still not really low. ;)

Quote from: NKRO;294121

Without acceleration that gives you 0.33" (1920/5700=0.33…) for the range of movement that will cover your entire screen. No matter how hard you tried, it would be virtually impossible to move the mouse cursor a single pixel in a direction because it is so sensitive.

Not saying that you really gain anything from such high CPI, especially in gaming situations but hitting a specific pixel on screen with high CPI isn't that hard.
Quote
Both of these things sound pretty good, so why is acceleration bad? Because you lose 1:1 control.

Your mouse is no longer working at the CPI you set it to, and movements are unpredictable.
....
If you are playing a first-person game, it means there is no way to guarantee where your aim is going to be.


Acceleration isn't bad in general nor is it un-predictable it just adds another factor to how your mouse movement is represented on the screen.
(Wanted) accleration is based on a mathematical formula and therefor predictable allthough it doesn't make aiming "easier".

Many people play with accel., Quake is a good example.

Quote
The sensor used in the G500 is the same as the Xai so it is 5040 CPI native, and can be adjusted in 90 CPI steps. That means when running it at 5700 CPI you are using interpolated data and do not have pixel-perfect precision.

If I remember correctly, the Logitech drivers only allow you to adjust in 100 DPI steps which means that 900, 1800, 2700, 3600 and 4500 DPI are the only true DPI steps available with that mouse and you should not use anything else. (if I am wrong, use any multiple of 90 up to 5040 that suits you if the drivers allow it)

See above.

Quote
That sensor does have positive acceleration built in, so you will not be able to get true 1:1 control, ....

The pos. accel. of the A9500 is small and only really kicks in at higher speeds.
Ofc it would be better if there were zero accel. but it isn't that of a big issue and imho easily manageable (predictable), at least for me.

PS: For me the A9500 in the Xai just feels more precise and direct and at least mine has zero jitter issue on cloth pads.
Quote from: ripster;185750
Mechanical switches are mechanical.

Offline NKRO

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #46 on: Mon, 14 February 2011, 08:44:50 »
Quote from: Bullveyr;294741
That has nothing to do with laser or LED/Optical but with the manufacturer of the sensor.
Avago had it in its sensors and because pretty much ever gaming grade mouse had a Laser Sensor from Avago every mouse had it.

But that's also true for LED/Optical, the only (gaming grade) mice that didn't have an Avago Sensor were the MS WMO/IME/IMO, they were the only mice that didn't have angle snapping (prediction).
If pretty much all the gaming grade mice had it, then I think it was a fair generalisation to make.
Quote from: Bullveyr;294741
As a side note, technically Angle Snapping doesn't predict anything.
Yes, I'm just using the commonly accepted term. It really bugs me when people talk about "input lag" with displays when technically it's actually "output lag" because the display's processing is delaying the image being displayed.
Quote from: Bullveyr;294741
Not really true, most Laser Sensors didn't have a higher LOD than the usuall Optical one from Avago.
Again the IMO/WMO/IME are an exeption with their pretty low but honestly they never could really compete with Avago Sensor inmax. tracking performnace.
I was never a fan of those mice—in fact when my last mouse died I was back using a WMO and hated it. It has to be polled at 250Hz or higher to track reasonably well, and with it only being 400 CPI, I found it to be far too slow, and I because of this I would be moving the mouse quickly enough to go over the maximum speed it can track properly at all the time.
Quote from: Bullveyr;294741
Optical Sensors have a higher realtion between performance and LOD:
It was my understanding that the issue was not specifically the lift-off-distance, but that the problem is that laser mice have to calibrate the LOD to the surface that they are being used on which can result in tracking problems when the mouse is lifted.
Quote from: Bullveyr;294741
Logitechs version of the Avago ADNS-9500 has a different SROM with true 100 CPI steps.
I wasn't aware of that. My apologies for spreading misinformation.
Quote from: Bullveyr;294741
Specific issue of the ADNS-9500, has nothing to do with Laser Sensors in general.
But most current gaming laser mice are using the ADNS-9500 or a Philips Twin-Eye which is even worse.
Quote from: Bullveyr;294741
Less correction isn't automatically better dependant on the surface and some people actually prefer to have angle snapping on.
My point was that laser needs this jitter correction to function properly to track well. If your movements are being "corrected" in this manner, then the mouse may not always move as you intended.
Quote from: Bullveyr;294741
Not saying that you really gain anything from such high CPI, especially in gaming situations but hitting a specific pixel on screen with high CPI isn't that hard.
When you have no acceleration and the mouse is set up for 1:1 control, to move one pixel at 5700 CPI requires a movement of under 0.045mm. Perhaps on a high friction surface it is possible, but I struggle to have that level of control at 3500 CPI with my Deathadder when I'm really trying to only move it a single pixel in one direction, and certainly could not in a fast-paced gaming situation. It is generally accepted that in Quake—a very fast-paced game—if you are doing a 360° turn in less than three inches you're too quick to have the accuracy required for pro-level play.
Quote from: Bullveyr;294741
Many people play with accel., Quake is a good example.
All the pro-level FPS gameplay I have ever seen has been with huge mousepads, low sensitivity and no acceleration.

Offline Bullveyr

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #47 on: Mon, 14 February 2011, 09:31:16 »
Quote from: NKRO;294797
If pretty much all the gaming grade mice had it, then I think it was a fair generalisation to make.

But not if you compare Optical with Laser Sensors.

PS: If you want Optical without angle snapping you have fewer choices than with Laser

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I was never a fan of those mice—in fact when my last mouse died I was back using a WMO and hated it. It has to be polled at 250Hz or higher to track reasonably well, and with it only being 400 CPI, I found it to be far too slow, and I because of this I would be moving the mouse quickly enough to go over the maximum speed it can track properly at all the time.

Needing more than 400 CPI and hitting the perfect control speed of the WMO sounds a little bit odd to me.
Or are you talking about 2D enviroments like desktop or RTS?

PS: Thx but I'm well aware of the limitations of a 8bit per axis data path. ;)

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It was my understanding that the issue was not specifically the lift-off-distance, but that the problem is that laser mice have to calibrate the LOD to the surface that they are being used on which can result in tracking problems when the mouse is lifted.

They don't, that z-axis problem is specific for the twin-eye.
That you can adjust the LOD with the A9500 has nothing to do with that.

As a side note allthough both the twin-eye and a A9500 for example are "Laser" they have technically not much in common, unlike the A9500 and all optical sensors.
In fact there are even sensors that you can use with a LED or a VCSEL (Laser).

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I wasn't aware of that. My apologies for spreading misinformation.

No Problem :)

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But most current gaming laser mice are using the ADNS-9500 or a Philips Twin-Eye which is even worse.

True but I was just making a technical point.

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My point was that laser needs this jitter correction to function properly to track well. If your movements are being "corrected" in this manner, then the mouse may not always move as you intended.

And what tells you that optical sensors don't need/have jitter or general correction?
They have. ;)

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When you have no acceleration and the mouse is set up for 1:1 control, to move one pixel at 5700 CPI requires a movement of under 0.045mm. Perhaps on a high friction surface it is possible, but I struggle to have that level of control at 3500 CPI with my Deathadder when I'm really trying to only move it a single pixel in one direction, and certainly could not in a fast-paced gaming situation. It is generally accepted that in Quake—a very fast-paced game—if you are doing a 360° turn in less than three inches you're too quick to have the accuracy required for pro-level play.

I was just saying that if you really try you can do that with pretty high CPI (maybe not with 5700, never tested that), having that kind of accuracy in fast real world gaming is ofc something differnet. ;)

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All the pro-level FPS gameplay I have ever seen has been with huge mousepads, low sensitivity and no acceleration.

http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=1944158

just to show that there is interest in accel.

I don't follow the Quake esport scene and the settings the top players use but that's what I have found with a quick search

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=117223¤tpage=5
Quote from: ripster;185750
Mechanical switches are mechanical.

Offline Arc'xer

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« Reply #48 on: Mon, 14 February 2011, 15:52:03 »
Quote from: NKRO;294797
but I struggle to have that level of control at 3500 CPI with my Deathadder when I'm really trying to only move it a single pixel in one direction


Lower your sensitivity.

Every single time DPI pops out people still use the same sensitivity as before. If I used 400DPI and 2.5 sensitivity with 800DPI I would need to lower it to 1.25 to achieve the same feel as before.

(Low DPI) x (Sensitivity for low DPI)] / High DPI = Sensitivity for high DPI

I know the formula is somewhat wrong and it has been debated a lot that while it is correct in giving you the sensitivity you want. It's too general and it doesn't mention the minimum DPI you need, you can still use low DPI if your sensitivity is low enough.

Offline NKRO

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Razer Update Deathadders... "Back in Black"
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 09:15:10 »
Quote from: Arc'xer;294991
Lower your sensitivity.

Every single time DPI pops out people still use the same sensitivity as before. If I used 400DPI and 2.5 sensitivity with 800DPI I would need to lower it to 1.25 to achieve the same feel as before.

(Low DPI) x (Sensitivity for low DPI)] / High DPI = Sensitivity for high DPI

I know the formula is somewhat wrong and it has been debated a lot that while it is correct in giving you the sensitivity you want. It's too general and it doesn't mention the minimum DPI you need, you can still use low DPI if your sensitivity is low enough.
What is the point of using a high DPI and low sensitivity?

All you are doing there is sending a large amount of data to the computer that is going to be discarded at best, and at worst, cause inconsistent movements. On the desktop (which is the easiest example) your mouse cursor can only move in 1 pixel steps in any direction. When the windows cursor sensitivity is set to 6/11 every count that your mouse sends to the computer (why it should be CPI rather than DPI) results in 1 pixel of movement.

If you lower your sensitivity you no longer have 1:1 control, as windows takes the number of counts you input and applies a multiplier to them.

At 5/11 this is 0.75, so for every mouse movement you make, Windows calculates it as moving 0.75 pixels and then rounds it.

So you end up in this situation:
Counts, Movement
1, 1px
2, 2px
3, 2px

4, 3px
5, 4px
6, 5px
7, 5px

8, 6px
9, 7px
10, 8px

Now do you see the problem? You no longer have 1:1 control and mouse movement is inconsistent. At lower settings, things get even worse.

If you were to use 4/11, well that would be 0.5 pixels per count, which would be the same thing as halving the DPI/CPI of your mouse… so you are better to adjust the DPI/CPI rate of your mouse and keep 1:1 control.

It is the same for using higher sensitivities. Some of the settings will produce inconsistent results, and others are simply multiples. 8/11 = 2x, 10/11 = 3x. So you are effectively turning a 400 CPI mouse into an 800 or 1200 CPI mouse in terms of speed, except the smallest movement you can now make with it is 2px or 3px respectively so you gain speed and lose accuracy. This is why you should buy a higher CPI mouse rather than move off 6/11 if movement is not fast enough for you, and why you should adjust the CPI of your mouse rather than changing sensitivity settings to get the speed that you want.