Author Topic: Bottoming out - yes/no (is it bad) (Read 65007 times)

MikeTheBboy · « **on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 04:10:17 »

Hey, I've seen a lot of posts about trying NOT to bottom out and I'm just wondering if its bad for a mechanical keyboard or whether its just for noise and moving 2mm less. My mechanical should come soon so I would like to know before it comes just in case it's bad for the keyboard.

By the way - the keyboard coming is a ducky dk9008 (B)

Ekaros · « **Reply #1 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 04:17:27 »

Model Ms have been banged on for years.

Mainly it's better for you in the long run, keyboards are "relatively" affordable, but your wrist and health isn't. Mainly lighter typing results in less stress in hands and such.

MikeTheBboy · « **Reply #2 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 04:21:53 »

Oh, cool, thanks, I'll refrain from hitting the keys so hard from now on >_>

Brodie337 · « **Reply #3 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 04:41:43 »

It can't hurt the keyboard, but it does make typing faster and more fluid when you don't bottom out.

db_Iodine · « **Reply #4 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 05:08:08 »

You shouldn't worry about bottoming out. It happens if it happens, and you might learn not to bottom out or not. Just give yourself and the keyboard some time and whack away.

Ekaros · « **Reply #5 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 05:21:18 »

Also banging it down is sometime quite terapeutic. So why not do it

RiGS · « **Reply #6 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 05:37:26 »

The whole point behind the long key travel distance of a mechanical keyboard is to prevent your hands from the constant impact, thus resulting more ergonomic typing experience.

Jim66 · « **Reply #7 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 06:15:15 »

Quote from: Ekaros;306077

Also baging it down is sometime quite terapeutic. So why not do it

+1 some times I like to show a difficult paragraph who is boss.

Findecanor · « **Reply #8 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 06:57:42 »

I am mostly annoyed by the sound, to be frank.

keyb_gr · « **Reply #9 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 10:17:48 »

Once you get used to the feel, you typically stop bottoming out (or at least bottoming out hard) when typing slowly. Typical MX switches are quite well-behaved anyway, doing their best to avoid a hard impact.

With BS it's a bit different, here most of the speed is gone once you reach the buckling point where force drops away.

db_Iodine · « **Reply #10 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 10:31:06 »

I still bottom out quite a lot, especially when I'm trying to type my fastest. When I just enjoy the typing experience and don't mind losing 5wpm I tend to bottom out just slightly with some of the key presses and not at all on most key presses.

spdx · « **Reply #11 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 11:54:08 »

Quote from: db_Iodine;306072

You shouldn't worry about bottoming out. It happens if it happens, and you might learn not to bottom out or not. Just give yourself and the keyboard some time and whack away.

can't agree more

ashort · « **Reply #12 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 12:26:15 »

The point of a tactile keyboard, for me, is that you feel the switch actuate before the keycap bottoms out. I still bottom out, but I'm not looking for that to indicate actuation anymore. On cheap boards, that's the only indication there is. On a cheap board, your bottom out is a motion stopping impact which is bad for you after 50,000 or so of them. "It's ok, the circuit board broke my fall." Blindly tap your finger on the top of your desk 50 times in a row and see how that feels.

I speculate that when I bottom out on a tactile keyboard, I'm already easing the strike pressure. Bottom out is not an indication, as much as it is an expected "bounce". There is no doubt I am faster and feel better on a Filco with browns, than on that white Apple wireless thing.

I don't think intentionally trying to not bottom out is necessary. If you try to amp up your typing speed on a good mechanical switch board, I think you'll stop anyway.

pitashen · « **Reply #13 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 12:41:08 »

We all like to spend $100+ for a keyboard that would break upon bottoming out, and I have already gone through 10 keyboards.

BucklingSpring · « **Reply #14 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 13:17:43 »

Quote from: Ekaros;306077

Also banging it down is sometime quite terapeutic. So why not do it

+1, Bucklingspring rulez!

BucklingSpring · « **Reply #15 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 13:21:45 »

Quote from: pitashen;306247

We all like to spend $100+ for a keyboard that would break upon bottoming out, and I have already gone through 10 keyboards.

You really broke 10 mechanical keybords?
(read "reasonable abuse" not - shooting at them, burn them or roll over them with a tank)

Ekaros · « **Reply #16 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 13:22:53 »

Quote from: pitashen;306247

We all like to spend $100+ for a keyboard that would break upon bottoming out, and I have already gone through 10 keyboards.

I belive most people here can't wear out their boards for the quantity they have them, not egnought time to do it for each...

pitashen · « **Reply #17 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 13:23:24 »

Quote from: BucklingSpring;306273

You really broke 10 mechanical keybords?
(read "reasonable abuse" not - shooting at them, burn them or roll over them with a tank)

That was supposed to be a mean sarcasm.

BucklingSpring · « **Reply #18 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 13:26:04 »

Quote from: pitashen;306276

That was supposed to be a mean sarcasm.

:doh::redface:

kill will · « **Reply #19 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 13:53:05 »

some girls enjoy bottoming out. i find most dont though.

db_Iodine · « **Reply #20 on:** Sun, 06 March 2011, 13:54:19 »

Quote from: Ekaros;306275

I belive most people here can't wear out their boards for the quantity they have them, not egnought time to do it for each...

It's good to have a lot of keyboards so you can never during your life time wear out any of your precious keyboards -> You can never have too many keyboards.

mooremanifestation · « **Reply #21 on:** Mon, 07 March 2011, 19:52:13 »

I experimented with not bottoming out for a week or so. I find it to be very unsatisfying, like chewing your food but never swallowing it.

keyboardlover · « **Reply #22 on:** Mon, 07 March 2011, 19:54:40 »

Quote from: kill will;306297

some girls enjoy bottoming out. i find most dont though.

I've found the opposite to be true :\

Tony · « **Reply #23 on:** Mon, 07 March 2011, 20:06:55 »

I prefer brown switches and I type bottom out at first.

But when you type fast, your fingers automatically feel the keys and apply just the right force and travel to not bottom out, so that you can type next key faster.

You will think: "Oh, my fingers are dancing on the keyboard. Or put it mildly, it is a sexy feeling!"

keyboardlover · « **Reply #24 on:** Mon, 07 March 2011, 20:08:39 »

Yea, I agree with Tony. You bottom out less when you pick up speed.

domin8r · « **Reply #25 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 04:03:50 »

Just got this thread in a search...

Glad to hear it's not bad by itself

I tend to be a "hard" typer so when I really get into it bottom out like crazy (coworkers have asked if I'd prefer using a hammer to type).
Maybe my Model M will help me be better typer

fullofenergy · « **Reply #26 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 13:28:04 »

When I try to type without bottoming out, I find that I need to make too much of a conscious effort to slow my fingers down and it reduces my speed, maybe I'm just no used to it.

Edit: I type around 120wpm+ bottoming down.

RiGS · « **Reply #27 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 14:25:30 »

Cherry blacks will do the trick for you.

The Solutor · « **Reply #28 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 15:28:18 »

Quote from: RiGS;306082

The whole point behind the long key travel distance of a mechanical keyboard is to prevent your hands from the constant impact, thus resulting more ergonomic typing experience.

I think that the whole point of 4mm (or longer) distance keyboard is just to try to imitate the long travel of typewriters keys, to please who was used with it.

So nothing to do with ergonomics, exactly has happened with the qwerty layout.

BaconKnight · « **Reply #29 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 16:12:19 »

Quote from: fullofenergy;347604

When I try to type without bottoming out, I find that I need to make too much of a conscious effort to slow my fingers down and it reduces my speed, maybe I'm just no used to it.

Edit: I type around 120wpm+ bottoming down.

I'm the same way. If I try too hard to not bottom out with every keystroke, I become aware of my typing which slows me down. At the same time, if I just type without thinking about it, then I'll bottom out less and less though I think it's inevitable that you'll bottom out keys as you type if you want to keep up a good clip.

It does depend on the switch type too. On my MX black board, it's so heavy I bottom out a lot less than I do on my MX blues.

RiGS · « **Reply #30 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 16:12:46 »

Quote from: The Solutor;347642

I think that the whole point of 4mm (or longer) distance keyboard is just to try to imitate the long travel of typewriters keys, to please who was used with it.

So nothing to do with ergonomics, exactly has happened with the qwerty layout.

Then why is the switch actuates at the halfway of the stroke.

daerid · « **Reply #31 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 17:19:15 »

I tend to bottom out, but very gently. Even on browns. I just like the way it sounds, and I've trained myself over the years to use the bottom of the keystroke to act as the tactile feedback. Probably why I like my browns better than my blues, and I have a hunch reds/blacks will be even better :-o

The Solutor · « **Reply #32 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 18:32:22 »

Quote from: RiGS;347658

Then why is the switch actuates at the halfway of the stroke.

Obviously because of the construction constraints and because most of the keyboard makers managed to imitate what was the reference design of the time (the model M keyboard), now the actuating point of 99% of modern keyboards is on the bottom of the keystroke, as happened with mechanical typewriters.

The truth is that in a place like this where, more or less, all the users are sharing the same passion, the trend is to retrofit theories, to justify that passion.

Go in a iphone zealot forums and you will find that most users have "scientific" theories about the more ergonomic touch screens and the total absence of any moving part.

xwhatsit · « **Reply #33 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 18:47:10 »

Quote from: The Solutor;347700

Obviously because of the construction constraints and because most of the keyboard makers managed to imitate what was the reference design of the time (the model M keyboard), now the actuating point of 99% of modern keyboards is on the bottom of the keystroke

Which is hideous and uncomfortable after a while. Why would you want your fingers to slam into a hard stop when you could have some prior warning and back off pressure early and not bottom out (or bottom out lightly?).

Who here doesn't bottom out a Model M at all? I find it difficult to not bottom out -- I bottom out lightly (compared to a rubber dome), but I still do hit the bottom. Model F seems to be a different story, easier to not bottom out.

The Solutor · « **Reply #34 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 19:03:02 »

Quote from: xwhatsit;347707

Which is hideous and uncomfortable after a while.

It's just matter of personal likings. 99% of the users consider rubber domes and scissor keyboards just perfect. And surely the actuation point that coincides with the bottom of the stroke is more logical than one in the middle of it

quickrabbit5 · « **Reply #35 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 19:28:53 »

Quote from: xwhatsit;347707

Which is hideous and uncomfortable after a while. Why would you want your fingers to slam into a hard stop when you could have some prior warning and back off pressure early and not bottom out (or bottom out lightly?).

I always found attempting to not bottom out to be extremely awkward - especially at higher speeds when you fingers are coming down pretty hard, it can force quite a bit of unnecessary tension into your fingers in order to slow them down enough to prevent bottoming out.

That's why, although I'm probably the minority in a forum like this, that I've found myself migrating back towards scissor switches after a couple disappointing runs with various Filcos - whether or not it's actually true, typing just feels so much quicker and fluid to me on shorter travel distances. The travel distances on mechanical switches make it feel like its taking me ages to bottom out the key.

I would love to have a keyboard with the high quality feel of mechanical switches but the low travel distance of a scissor switch - but I'm probably one of few.

8_INCH_FLOPPY · « **Reply #36 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 19:55:02 »

Depends on the keyboard. It's pretty much impossible not to bottom out on my Micro Connectors smk8112JU with its black alps. Cherries, on the other hand, are easy to type on without bottoming out.

xwhatsit · « **Reply #37 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 20:08:25 »

Quote from: The Solutor;347711

It's just matter of personal likings. 99% of the users consider rubber domes and scissor keyboards just perfect. And surely the actuation point that coincides with the bottom of the stroke is more logical than one in the middle of it

99% of users consider these to be perfect because they either don't care or haven't tried anything better. Most people are happy with the camera on their cellphone and wouldn't even recognise a Leica M3.

More logical? The switch is activated when it goes `click'. That's logical. You're considering the switch wrong. The activation point is the only thing that really matters -- and on a buckling spring (this varies with Cherries and Alps), the activation point is also the tactile point. Any more switch travel is just bonus `over-run' room to prevent bottoming out. This is why rubber domes and scissor switches are no fun; no over travel to slow down after activating the switch.

@quickrabbit5: Yes, I find trying not to bottom out on a Model M rather tiresome; blue Alps are slightly better. However, it's like an automatic muscle reflex that when your fingers feel the tactile point (on any switch), they tend to relax. This means that even bottoming out on a tactile switch tends to be a much gentler bottoming out than bottoming out on a rubber dome or scissor switch (especially a particularly worn-out keyboard, where you are having to apply positive pressure to make sure the switch registers every time)..

A Filco would be Cherry MX, of course; have you used blues, or just the linear switches (browns can almost be lumped in with the linears, their tactility is so light as to be almost linear)?

Try Alps, they have significantly shorter travel than buckling springs and Cherry MX. And you still get that nice gentle bottoming out rather than slamming your fingers into the PCB like with scissor switches.

RiGS · « **Reply #38 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 20:13:58 »

Quote

Go in a iphone zealot forums and you will find that most users have "scientific" theories about the more ergonomic touch screens and the total absence of any moving part.

I would never buy an Apple product, or anything similar nonsense.

Quote

99% of the users consider rubber domes and scissor keyboards just perfect. And surely the actuation point that coincides with the bottom of the stroke is more logical than one in the middle of it

It just proves my base assumption, that most people are boring and ignorant. I tend to act the opposite as the 99% of the people do.
On the contrary, the actuation point at the middle is more reasonable and logical.
That way you don't need to bang the keyboard hardly to actuate it, and the longer travel distance and the resistance of the springs absorbs the excess force, and giving you a good rebound. So basically it has a short key travel like a scissor switch with an amazing rebound, but without the hard impact.
It also allows me to type faster than on a rubber dome. It just feels more natural and fluid to fastly tap the keys one after another without going all the way down waiting for the impact.
I also find this type of switch mechanism superior for gaming. This way you have more control/speed over the actuation point, and you don't need to keep holding down the key firmly in order to avoid accidental releases of the switch.

brkim1324 · « **Reply #39 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 20:17:29 »

congrats on your new keyboard!
As far as I know, bottoming out is not bad.
The keycaps is quite durable for hardcore typists too.
They are made to be typed, and most mechanical keyboards are very well built for that.
Just don't destroy the keyboard like the German kid

brkim1324 · « **Reply #40 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 20:35:28 »

Quote

Every time you bottom out a key somewhere in the world a baby sneezes.

Nevermind, don't ever bottom out.
You might kill lots of babies... Unless you want to be a... baby killer XD

HaveANiceDay · « **Reply #41 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 22:09:22 »

Real men slam the keys. If the caps don't bend, you're doing it wrong.

The Solutor · « **Reply #42 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 22:13:20 »

Quote from: RiGS;347745

I would never buy an Apple product, or anything similar nonsense.

On the contrary, the actuation point at the middle is more reasonable and logical.
That way you don't need to bang the keyboard hardly to actuate it, and the longer travel distance and the resistance of the springs absorbs the excess force, and giving you a good rebound. So basically it has a short key travel like a scissor switch with an amazing rebound, but without the hard impact.

So you must decide what the rubber dome problem is. Is because are mushy or is because the "hard impact" ? Dont you think there's a bit of contradiction here ?

There's no hard impact at all on rubber domes and scissor switches, some of them are mushy.

Really the problem of most rubber domes is the poor construction not the point of activation.

the only reasonable sentences about mechs are "I like how they feel" and "can be repaired when a switch is broken" anything else depends on the switch used.

Quote

It just proves my base assumption, that most people are boring and ignorant. I tend to act the opposite as the 99% of the people do.

I have also this tendency, just I apply this also here.

Tony · « **Reply #43 on:** Tue, 17 May 2011, 22:21:08 »

Bottoming out? Here is an extreme example.

[video=youtube;dph5djEZAnI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dph5djEZAnI[/video]

RickyJ · « **Reply #44 on:** Wed, 18 May 2011, 00:56:52 »

^ That dude needs a wrist rest, and to get his left ring finger looked at.

Coming from the world of complicated Alps switches where I always bottomed out, I find myself not bottoming out on Cherry clears without even thinking about it. Same typing speed, but the tactile bump followed by the increasing resistance just seems to naturally stop me from bottoming out. I haven't tried browns at all, and the only blues I've tried have been the awkwardly displayed ones on a Black Widow box in a store (no display model to play with). I'm sure that if I tried to bottom out on these clear switches my fingers would get tired after a while, as the springs are just that strong. At the same time, I'm sure that if I tried out blues or browns I'd find myself bottoming out again since they're so much lighter.

squarebox · « **Reply #45 on:** Wed, 18 May 2011, 01:35:26 »

^ You get fingers like that if you play lot of basketball.

skyblue · « **Reply #46 on:** Wed, 18 May 2011, 03:14:55 »

Am I the only one who bottoms out on purpose? I love the sound and constantly bang on my Das with the might of THOR.... I know the wench loves it

domin8r · « **Reply #47 on:** Wed, 18 May 2011, 04:24:39 »

Quote from: ripster;347755

Every time you bottom out a key somewhere in the world a baby sneezes.

Who cares about babies anyway!

RiGS · « **Reply #48 on:** Thu, 19 May 2011, 10:13:39 »

Quote from: The Solutor;347811

So you must decide what the rubber dome problem is. Is because are mushy or is because the "hard impact" ? Dont you think there's a bit of contradiction here ?

There's no hard impact at all on rubber domes and scissor switches, some of them are mushy.

Really the problem of most rubber domes is the poor construction not the point of activation.

the only reasonable sentences about mechs are "I like how they feel" and "can be repaired when a switch is broken" anything else depends on the switch used.

The main problem with generic rubber domes is the poor design/build quality, and the fact you have to bottom out on them, because the point of activation is at the bottom.
I don't care about whether it's mushy or hard, I just don't want to feel the impact while typing, because it slows me down.
The force curve of the domes is similar in the Topre, that's part of the reason I prefer the Cherry switches for typing as well.
Also most rubber domes are only 2kro. The only reason I bough my first mechanical keyboard is the NKRO feature of it.

hemflit · « **Reply #49 on:** Fri, 20 May 2011, 14:20:45 »

Better rubber domes have no between-state really. They have a very clear, though mushy, "buckling" point at which you know it's been actuated (unless the keyboard is worn out) and you don't need to feel its bottom.

Apple's modern laptop keyboards (and I assume those fancy desktop ones too) share this quality - it's impossible to press a key half-way unless you're consciously trying to. It's either pressed or it isn't. That, and their bottoms are soft, on which you may freely quote me out of context.

Count me in the "bottom-out sound is annoying" club.

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Author Topic: Bottoming out - yes/no (is it bad) (Read 65007 times)