One more question, and you may not have an answer. The popularity of mechanical keyboards has been going up. Not quickly, but it is on the rise. Even Thermaltake is releasing a Cherry keyboard, and a few other keyboard manufacturers have quietly entered the mechanical ring, like Adesso. There are also a few specialty boards being released soon, like the new TrulyErgonomic (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/) and Mini-Guru (http://www.guru-board.com/). I've also noticed that certain models of mechanical keyboard on ebay have gotten harder to find, even in the time that I've been following them.

Some of this interest, especially among enthusiasts, is probably due to Manyak's thread on Overclock.net, which is now the top Google result for "mechanical keyboard".

So with this renewed interest in mechanical keyboards... Are you aware of any plans on Microsoft's part to release one? At the very least, it's probably much easier to make a PCB-based mech board NKRO than a membrane board.

It's straightforward to make mechanical keyboards that support large numbers of simultaneous key strokes - use a big printed circuit board and put a diode in series with each mechanical key. The problem is that it is rather expensive. Of course, if enough people really wanted these things AND they were willing to pay for them, I imagine MS and the other large keyboard manufacturers would respond appropriately. But by their nature, most of the big players have too much overhead to get involved in small market products. In some ways, this is good for the industry because it gives smaller players a place where they can succeed and grow before going toe-to-toe with the big guys.

The X4 is an interesting product because it attempts to bring a rather high-end keyboard feature to the mass market. My hope is that it will be a huge hit. If it is, it will send a message to major keyboard manufacturers that making sophisticated, core functionality improvements pays off. However, if it only sells modestly, it will be a huge red flag, indicating that we are having trouble explaining the value proposition...

It's straightforward to make mechanical keyboards that support large numbers of simultaneous key strokes - use a big printed circuit board and put a diode in series with each mechanical key. The problem is that it is rather expensive

BULL****.
In a quantity of 1,000 pieces, my local electronics parts shop sells diodes for THREE CENTS each.

Likely, a Logitech or Microsoft would be buying in quantities of 100,000 or more, so I'd expect a steeper drop.

104 units for 104 keys = $3.12 extra.  Even adding extra tooling and assembly cost, there's no reason the retail boost can't be $20 or less.

Note the delta of price on Filcos is $25 for NKRO.

Hak, you seem to be oblivious to the realities of marketing (as well as enthusiastically rude). OEMs look for ways to cut 1/2 cent in manufacturing costs even if it compromises functionality for 20% of the consumer base. Adding 3 dollars for a feature recognized by under 10% of the customer base simply Ain't Gonna Happen without strongly established evidence of 30 dollar profit per unit (10x profit, not revenue).

Sadly I've seen this as well, both in manufacturing and jobs.

Well, we know what a mechanical board can be sold for: $50 (Scorpius M10.  So an NKRO M10 at 80.00 is feasible.  At 120, it's a scam.

This may be stupid, but I just had an idea. What about a compromise between a mechanical and a rubber dome? Not like a Topre or anything, no. What I mean is...


In a typical membrane keyboard you have three membranes: top one with the rubber domes, middle spacer membrane, and bottom membrane with the contact surface. What if you replaced that bottom membrane with a PCB? You'd then be able to put a diode after each rubber dome switch, thus giving NKRO. It would be more expensive than a typical rubber dome, but less expensive than a mechanical keyboard because you don't have to use mechanical switches.

You would be able to provide an NKRO rubber dome keyboard in the $50 range, compared to the cheapest NKRO mechanical keyboards like the $70 Adesso MKB-135B.


There's probably some reason this hasn't been done yet, but nothing that stands out to me. Please point out my stupidity.

I've heard of companies trying pretty much all the variants - buckling springs with membranes for electrical switching, domes on top of printed circuit boards, etc.

Not to be redundant, the resistive membrane technique is the answer you've been looking for. It really does let you see every key for a very modest cost increase over traditional membranes. On the X4, the max number of simultaneous keys is limited by debounce processing and USB communications - not by the matrix. And we have been mocked for the level of overkill we've already implemented in X4. I believe it's more than ANY other USB keyboard on the market. Oh, and it lists for US$59.99, with Amazon selling it for under US$50 during pre-orders.

So, short answer - SideWinder X4 is a membrane-based keyboard that easily meets your simultaneous key pressing needs, and sells for about the price you want. Problem solved!
:smile:

I just read one of those pages you linked, and I think it changed since last time...


I thought that the 26-key thing was a maximum, and that 11 in the alphanum section was a maximum. But you're claiming that it's 11 key minimum?


In other words, it's 11KRO. Or, in clearer terms, it's NKRO limited by USB... and you've loosened the USB limits.

If so, doh to me for failed reading comprehension.



But in that case couldn't you just use PS/2 and not have to worry about messing around with USB and its limitations? Even the OS limitations for over 11 keys? Or is it a matter of marketing saying it needs to be USB?

26 keys is the maximum you can send with the USB reporting structure that we are using. However, those are not 26 generic slots. Some are for QWERTY keys, some are for modifiers, etc. This is all detailed here:

http://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/SideWinderX4.mspx

If you ignore the Media and Macro keys, you can press ANY 17 keys, and they will properly report. So I guess that is 17KRO by your definition.

But you are correct that there are software issues on the PC-side that as best I can tell, limit you to 11 simultaneous key presses, or 11KRO when using USB if you want error-free operation. You are correct that PS/2 doesn't have this problem (at least not that I know of), but it does have other serious limitations, the most important being that it isn't available on many modern machines, particularly laptops.

Since the problem is a software one, there is a good chance that we will be able to create a fix. No promises here, but we are looking into it. I have tried X4 on some non-MS operating systems, and while this isn't officially supported, it does seem to mostly work. (Obviously, you lose the macro functionality, etc.) And this gets you around the 12+ key problem.:ohwell:

Anyhow, I hope this clears things up...

well i was going to order a majestouch but i think i will wait for the X4 to hit the shelves in AUS... cheers for the info Paul and everyone else. peace!

Mr. Dietz, I would pay big money for an MS Natural 4000 with Cherry Brown switches.  Thanks, and welcome to Geekhack.

The MS Natural 4000 is one of my all-time favorite keyboards. I absolutely LOVE the layout, the "leather" palm rest, the media buttons (the calculator button was one of my faves, too) and how flat it sits on the desk. Not to mention it even looks pretty sexy on top of all of that with its low-key color combinations. It's just a damn-shame that it's a rubber dome 'board. My feeling is that if you're going to spend a certain amount of extra money on an "ergo" layout, you might as well get the ergo switches to go with it. That said, if are spending a certain amount of extra money on an ergo layout, you might as well get a truly ergo 'board with an adjustable split, but the split in the MS Natural 4000 is about perfect for me.

Plus the adjustable ergo boards don't look as sexy as the fixed ones. For instance, that ergo Model M (I forget what it's called) is ugly as sin. It looks like a toy. I'm sure it's a pure joy to type on, but the Natural 4000 at least looks better.

The uTron is pretty damn sexy.  It also costs a pretty damn sexy $500 (just like the M15 if you can find one).

Wow, so much stuff to discuss going on here!

But first of all thank you very much Dr. Dietz for clarifying my question!

And, damn the marketing people!
Wherever they are they never tell what really matters and just put up useless nonsense!
Does it hurt to add a one-liner or just a few words like "USB full-speed"?
You know Logitech Rumblepad2 boasts its accurate d-pad but they never talk about its durability! Transfer rate of 1.5 Mb/s on USB low-speed is complete bogus! And... oh, well, whatever.

And a few more to add..

Actually, no: PS/2 converters are notorious for their 6KRO.
It doesn't matter my model F is virtually NKRO, any convertor that hasn't got a special driver will only pick up the first 6 keys.

There is an exception I know of; the DRKBCN keyboard converter by Dharma Point, which seems to use the standard USB HID driver and yet it is 10-key rollover capable. Though the gimmick behind this looks tricky indeed. Also it's a bit expensive.

So, short answer - SideWinder X4 is a membrane-based keyboard that easily meets your simultaneous key pressing needs, and sells for about the price you want.

Ah, that should be true but the smaller ESC keys on recent Microsoft keyboards were deal-breaker to me.
Also, if I'm allowed to say, I'm a bit ambivalent about the "eat your own dog food" saying ...or was it just inside MSKK Japan? Anyway, although this is indeed a good thing to remember as a sharp, effective warning on quality control and moral standards, it still doesn't sound like they're aiming at higher quality standards. At least I'd insist that Microsoft should improve the "key feeling" on many keyboards for better customer satisfaction - while most will just tolerate, I feel it's just pretty much too mediocre.

The uTron is pretty damn sexy. It also costs a pretty damn sexy $500 (just like the M15 if you can find one).

Besides its price tag, you should watch that the key size is smaller (17mm) than your standard keyboards (19mm).

hey guys

@Mr. Dietz: Does the PCB run under or past the wrist rest on the sidewinder X4?

Interesting read, I am currently in the process of returning my brand new Razer Lycosa due to it's 2KRO limitations.

It's nice to see one of the Microsoft team take some time out to discuss their product in an open forum, makes me think they believe they are on to a winner.

On the strength of this and other reviews I have just ordered one, fingers crossed it does the job like I hope it does.

Speaking of membrane boards with NKRO, did anyone mention the Siemens (Fujitsu-Siemens / Fujitsu, whatever) KBPC E a.k.a. Kinesis Maxim yet? Has everything soldered on the membranes, including controller and diodes. Interesting technology for sure. Sadly their boards with regular layouts dropped this kind of construction many moons ago due to price pressure.

How is NKRO achieved in capacitative keyboards?

I wonder.. Has anybody tried to lay half-a-membrane on top of a capacitative switch circuit board and seen if that worked? The membrane would not even have to be connected to anything.
Edit: I did try my Keytronic KT101 (capacitative) and KT1000 (rubber dome/membrane). Both membranes: Nothing. Omitting the lower membrane: Too much all over the place.

The MS Natural 4000 is one of my all-time favorite keyboards. I absolutely LOVE the layout, the "leather" palm rest, the media buttons (the calculator button was one of my faves, too) and how flat it sits on the desk. Not to mention it even looks pretty sexy on top of all of that with its low-key color combinations. It's just a damn-shame that it's a rubber dome 'board. My feeling is that if you're going to spend a certain amount of extra money on an "ergo" layout, you might as well get the ergo switches to go with it. That said, if are spending a certain amount of extra money on an ergo layout, you might as well get a truly ergo 'board with an adjustable split, but the split in the MS Natural 4000 is about perfect for me.

This!  I also wind up using the volume and calculator buttons pretty often (slow launching on first attempting keypress though, must be a software issue with MS Keyboard).  I'd buy a mechanical version in a heartbeat at 3x the price.