IBM 1386887 (3179 terminal) keyboard conversion

[kishy]

What This Thread is About:
Converting 3179 (and compatible) terminal keyboards for use with the AT or PS/2 interface
There are two "halves" to this - hardware and software.
Thread details hardware rather thoroughly.
Software is still a bit hairy - throw in some questions if you need a hand, I am happy to help.
The software 'half' consists of two things - replacing/modifying a driver and remapping keys through the Windows registry.

Progress You Can Attain By Following This Thread:
Almost 100% - there is still no typematic repeat, however.

This mod can be done by users of Linux or Windows (I can verify my own success for Win2k/XP users only, though)
Chances are good that users with Hackintosh setups will likely not succeed.

---

A proper, more direct write up can be found here.
This is the information/discussion/theorizing thread for that mod, terminal keyboards in general, and any potentially relevant "stuff".

---

Before You Continue

It is highly recommended that you have an extra, "unimportant" computer or motherboard available for testing that your wiring is correct. If the wiring is not correct, you can and possibly will permanently destroy the PS/2 keyboard interface on your computer!

Unfortunately, there will be some victims in the quest for terminal board use on PCs. Hopefully we can reduce the effect so it is only unwanted extra hardware being victimized, not people's "daily driver" computers.

You have been warned - proceed with caution.

---


Hi all, new member here...keep finding myself returning here from Google results so I took that as a sign I should register :)

I have 4 IBM Model M keyboards...2 of them are somewhat odd, being that they are 3179 terminal keyboards, both born on the same day in 1986 (the other two are 1993 1391401's).

I'm seeking to convert those 3179 terminal 'boards over to the AT and PS/2 standard, most likely using the kbdbabel project (I'm sure plenty here are familiar with it, kbdbabel.org).

You can find the details of the keyboards and the conversion on my sort of mediocre website, http://kishy.comuf.com/. Projects -> Current -> IBM 3179 Terminal Keyboard Conversion to AT, PS/2. Since I don't have much of a discussion board, I'm kind of looking for a forum to act as a meeting ground for this.

I've seen from Google results here that people have tried the 122-key conversion before, or at least wanted to...seems like we all might make more progress if we work together, so I'm more or less calling out to YOU, 122-key owners, for your help/cooperation. Any progress I make is yours, and hopefully vise-versa.

Of course, not all 122-key units are the same electrically...if you've found info saying yours will work on a 3179 then it is functionally the same as mine.

Cheers

edit Aug 13 09
Significant success has been attained by simply swapping the cord and using registry key remaps via the free program "Key Mapper".
I do plan to make a kbdbabel adapter in the future however, and will document that process here, since it seems like directions for making one are desired by at least a couple people. >> KBDBABEL DONGLE DELAYED INDEFINITELY because alternate methods of gaining compatibility have been so successful. I hope and plan to make one but don't have the time, motivation/reason, or money at the moment.



Edit Feb 13 2010: need to make note of this somewhere
Resources which have assisted me in this project:
(in no particular order)

• eBay Seller puravida1881 (donated keyboards, thank you very much!)
• eBay Seller onlinecentral (Radio Shack DIN plug)
• The kbdbabel open source keyboard protocol translator project (kbdbabel.org)
• John Elliott via his own site and his posts in the geekhack thread
• Key Mapper, a free program which generates Windows registry key remaps by scancode
• PassMark KeyboardTest, a commercial (with trial) program for verifying key mapping and functionality

[ch_123]

I think this should have what you are looking for. There's also a thread about a similar Model M terminal keyboard here.

I wonder how similar the electronics are to the old 3178 keyboards... probably not alot considering the 3178 had a parallel connection.

[kishy]

Mhmm, that's (one of?) the thread(s) I found in the past. I figured that a new thread would convey perhaps..."fresh interest", I guess (just checked and see the last post was fairly recent...making me look kind of foolish). Also, that page (on diff site) is in my bookmarks...I've been unsure of what to believe though since that page says it will work, yet kbdbabel suggests a "non-dumb" hardware adapter is needed (since they provide an assembly file for the 3179 adapter).

(either way a physical adapter is needed; the question is if a dumb one can work or not. I'll be answering that for myself once I've swapped the cable for a PS/2 one)

If you're interested in photographs of the PCB in the keyboard I can take a couple...doubt my camera will show any detail on any components so I'd be happy to answer questions about "what's that say on it".

I know nothing about terminals or terminal keyboards, except that I want this monster beast on my desk...though I'd have to put the 1391401 back in the closet until my PS/2 30-286 is back up and running (anyone have a 3.5" HH RLL hard drive?). Point being I can't offer any help with the 3178 question.

[ch_123]

I think the kbdbabel thing is based on two things -

1) You need a physical adaptor for the connector.
2) You need some sort of software component to interpret the keyboard's scancodes correctly.

I'm not familar with the exact model of keyboard that you have, but does it have a permanently attached cable, or a removable SDL cable like the regular Model Ms?

[kishy]

The cord is built in and connects with pins similar to jumpers (same 2x3 connector I've seen used for some PS/2 mouse headers on socket 7 motherboards), some people call them Berg connectors but a "berg connector" is normally floppy power...so idk.

One must wonder...I've read somewhere (I've read a lot and always forget where it comes from) that the original PS/2 standard in some way incorporated scancode set 3, which supposedly is used by these keyboards...then wouldn't my IBM PS/2 systems support it out of the box, using the ps/2 cable?

Difficult to know since the 30-286 is nonoperational and the 56 SX is OS/2...so I wouldn't know if it was OS/2 supporting the board or the controller on the motherboard.

[ch_123]

Originally Posted by kishy

some people call them Berg connectors but a "berg connector" is normally floppy power...so idk.

As far as I know, 'Berg connector' is the name for that style of connector, not just the floppy/IDE ones specifically. Same way you have DIN connectors for a bunch of stuff other than keyboards.

One must wonder...I've read somewhere (I've read a lot and always forget where it comes from) that the original PS/2 standard in some way incorporated scancode set 3, which supposedly is used by these keyboards...then wouldn't my IBM PS/2 systems support it out of the box, using the ps/2 cable?

IBM was going to implement it, but by the time that they had intended on doing it, they lost interest for some reason or another.

[kishy]

Just looked on Wikipedia and you're right, it's all of the pin-type connectors.

Was going to? I'm guessing then that support is nonexistent because of them losing interest.

[ch_123]

Well, if your keyboard is like the one on John Elliot's site, the keyboard uses the standard AT protocol, it's just that some (ok, most) are not mapped correctly.

You could take a wire from a cheap keyboard, and hook the connectors up to the Berg connector, and try and copy what John Elliot did with his. He gave instructions on the linked thread about setting up the scancodes under Linux, which I'm sure would have an equivalent under Mac OS X. As for Windows, Im not sure of the exact process, but it should be doable.

[kishy]

Wellllll,,,,,



I am typingggggggggggg thisssssss onmyyyyyyyyy termiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinalllll keyboooooooooooooooooooarddddd onaaaaaaaa cheaaaaap usbbbbb conveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerteeeeeeeeeerrrrr.. ...




As you caaaaaaaaaaaan seeeeee, therrrrrrrrrrrre arrrrrrrrrrrre repeattttt issueeeeeeeeeessss..... Moreeeeeeee detaiiiiiiiiiiiiiils tomrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrow dayyyyytimeeeee.....

[keyb_gr]

Looks like another usbbb conveerteeerrr might be worth a shot.

[JohnElliott]

Originally Posted by ch_123

You could take a wire from a cheap keyboard, and hook the connectors up to the Berg connector, and try and copy what John Elliot did with his. He gave instructions on the linked thread about setting up the scancodes under Linux, which I'm sure would have an equivalent under Mac OS X. As for Windows, Im not sure of the exact process, but it should be doable.

I've updated that page since, with my experiences under Windows 2000. I could get it to work, but I had to use a KVM switch to do it -- switch away during boot, and come back afterwards. It's then possible to use Windows's scancode remapper to get the function and cursor keys doing what they should.

Whether it's practical for daily use rather than one-off experiments is another matter...

(Oh, and I also made a PS/2-to-DIN adaptor lead for the keyboard so I didn't have to keep borrowing the cable from my Model F).

[lowpoly]

If someone builds a kbdbabel converter, please document it in the mod forum.

[ch_123]

Originally Posted by JohnElliott

I've updated that page since, with my experiences under Windows 2000. I could get it to work, but I had to use a KVM switch to do it -- switch away during boot, and come back afterwards. It's then possible to use Windows's scancode remapper to get the function and cursor keys doing what they should.

Was Linux affected by the same problems?

[JohnElliott]

Originally Posted by ch_123

Was Linux affected by the same problems?

No, it worked straight away. I think something in the initialisation sequence that Windows sends makes the keyboard sulk; using the KVM means that that sequence never reaches the keyboard.

[kishy]

(this entire post will be typed on the keyboard in question)

keyb_gr,

Correct, it was the USB converter (not a direct adapter; a converter with circuitry inside). Interestingly though, I was getting some of the Cmd keys at the top to DO THINGS while on the USB converter (Cmd 8 was the Standby button, Cmd 7 was the Power button, Cmd 6 context menu, Cmd 4/5 Windows keys). This functionality does not exist over a true PS/2 interface, apparently.

I am now using this connected via an AT-PS/2 adapter on my desktop (one keyboard will end in an AT plug, the other in PS/2, I decided to do the AT one first) and as you can see, no repeat issues, and it's just as lovely to type on as my more traditional Model Ms...though I'd say the keys feel nicer actually.

JohnElliott, You actually don't need a KVM switch...you can unplug and replug the keyboard and it works (but it must remain plugged in during boot for BIOS to keep the PS/2 port operational). I'm planning to put a momentary SPST normally closed button somewhere on this keyboard to interrupt the +5V wire...that should be functionally the same thing as unplugging and replugging it, right?

I've made my own cable for this, without chopping up the original. I collect berg connectors from things I throw out and it turns out my efforts paid off...I found two 2x3 connectors in that ziplock bag.

I'm planning to make this my "daily driver", so to speak. I've found the commercial software PassMark KeyboardTest very handy, as it reveals all sorts of info about the keys being pressed (including the fact that they NEVER SEND AN "UP CODE"...to the computer, the keys are permanently down once pressed. I think this contributed to the repeat issue.)

I'll be writing up a complete document of the WinXP-interpreted equivalents of each key. You've done a lot of the same in a more technical manner (scancode interpretation, etc.).
(edit aug 16 09 - this would be impractical and would take ages, so I've decided not to do it. if anyone has a specific need for this information I will do it by request in this thread)

lowpoly, I am planning to make one...unfortunately the information from Alexander (seems to own/manage the project) was not 100% helpful for someone with no knowledge of microcontroller programming. I will be making one eventually, but unless I get some help with it, it could be +10 years for all I know...a local store which manufactures their own hardware has said they'll help if they can but they need to see all the details to judge if they can.

That said...I think purely software based solutions will actually work on this, for the most part. My motherboard (ECS 755-A2) doesn't seem to have any issues with this keyboard and that's good enough for me. Obviously, remapping all the oddly-mapped keys is a priority, because I forget where I found CTRL hidden...it's on some random key and if I remember right it toggles on/off...

(did all the experiments last night at 3AM, I'm surprised I remember doing them at all)

Pics:
I apologize for the bad pictures; I'm still not 100% used to this camera yet (macro mode seems to be kind of tricky)
Those joints are soldered, the hot glue is for added strengh and short prevention.
The kbdbabel adapter, if made, would go inside the keyboard case itself, and would be a permanent part of the cable, which itself is still removable.

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/4...shaftermod.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/123...887newplug.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/993...ewplugguts.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/921...cordinside.jpg
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/271...allayoutcl.jpg