Which fingers go where - some random thoughts

[Rajagra]

I can't get over how strange the conventional way of typing is, being angled asymmetrically and encouraging twisting of the left hand. So I drew a few diagrams...

First the conventional way:

The angle of the keys on the right seems to promote comfortable use by the right hand, justifying the staggered rows. But the left side has completely the opposite effect, completely blowing that argument out of the water. You could rotate the whole keyboard clockwise a bit, but that's a poor solution to a pretty fundamental design flaw.

What if we just use different fingers for some of the keys?:

This actually isn't too bad. But it does mean learning the new layout. And if you're going to learn a new format, you may as well learn a real new format like Dvorak or Colemak. Even so, this might be useful to people who move between machines a lot.

What if we try to preserve which fingers hit which keys, but move those letters for comfort?:

Not too bad, but some important punctuation had to move. And it still requres learning.

How about doing the same to a ISO keyboard?:

The extra key gives more flexibility. I think this layout is much better than the modified ANSI one.

Would it be worth remapping the keys, swapping keycaps and adjusting to such a layout? Probably not, unless you only ever use one computer, and really want to stick with QWERTY. Changes like this ideally need to be done in hardware, at least to some extent.

Like I said at the start, just some random thoughts, I haven't reached any stunning conclusions.

[keyb_gr]

I might give the modified ISO a shot on the G80-3000HAD (keycaps are easy to pull there). I hope MS Keyboard Layout Creator can import some existing layout.

Why did you post this in off topic though?

[Rajagra]

Well, it's not about any keyboard, and it's not a keyboard mod. There isn't a typing forum. So it didn't really fit anywhere else. I'm a bit pedantic. :-)

[DreymaR]

Good thinking!!! :)

The only thing necessary in my opinion, is to use an ISO keyboard (that is, with the SC056 key at the lower middle) and move ZXCVB one step to the left. This is the recommended option for Colemak users with that key on their keyboard.

This won't affect the Q and W keys but that doesn't matter as they're rare and not hard to hit anyway. It's the awkward stretches for ZXCVB that badly needed fixing. The best part is that you don't have to change your fingering for any keys, so it's hella easy to learn! Heartily recommended for absolutely everybody.

For Windows users, I can provide a registry hack to effectuate this change:

REGEDIT4 

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Keyboard Layout] 
; The next line maps ZXCVB_ <- _ZXCVB (where '_' is the VK_102 key)
"Scancode Map"=hex:00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,07,00,00,00,2c,00,56,00,2d,00,2c,00,2e,00,2d,00,2f,00,2e,00,30,00,2f,00,56,00,30,00,00,00,00,00
; The next line removes all scancode remappings
;"Scancode Map"=-

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Keyboard Layout]
"Scancode Map"=-

; Numbers are LittleEndian (0x12345678 -> 78,56,34,12)
; ---------------------------------------------------------------------
; Bytes      	Meaning
; ---------------------------------------------------------------------
; 00 00 00 00	Version info (usually zero)
; 00 00 00 00	Flags (usually zero)
; 07 00 00 00	# of entries (# of mappings +1 for the terminator)
; 2c 00 56 00	The VK_102(0056) key now sends a 'z'(002c) code
; 2d 00 2c 00	The 'z'(002c) key now sends a 'x'(002d) code
; 2e 00 2d 00	The 'x'(002d) key now sends a 'c'(002e) code
; 2f 00 2e 00	The 'c'(002e) key now sends a 'v'(002f) code
; 30 00 2f 00	The 'v'(002f) key now sends a 'b'(0030) code
; 56 00 30 00	The 'b'(0030) key now sends a VK_102(0056) code
; 00 00 00 00	Null terminator (always zero)

Use at your own discretion. On keyboards where the keycaps come off (i.e., most if you're careful) I usually move the ZXCVB and the SC056 key around to show the change. If you're one of many users on a computer you can skip that - and also do the registry hack per-user - but the fun thing is that 'regular' hunt-and-peck typists will adapt to the change without thinking... and most of them will in my experience not even notice it!!!

I've ordered a 105-key SpaceSaver with a US layout (I wanted the tenkeyless non-existent one, of course...). Nuff said.

[timw4mail]

The only time that I find the current layout weird is when typing two letters in the middle two rows, one of t,g,b,y,h,n. The overlap feels kind of strange, but other than that, I'm not sure at this point that I'd want to change layout.

Old habits die hard, you know.

[keyb_gr]

Originally Posted by Rajagra

Well, it's not about any keyboard, and it's not a keyboard mod. There isn't a typing forum. So it didn't really fit anywhere else. I'm a bit pedantic. :-)

C'mon. This is basically a keyboard layout discussion that would fit into the regular keyboard forum just fine.

Anyway, I just did a bit of key reordering based on your modified ISO. I handled the top letters differently, and the numbers row remained unchanged.
The result: The QWERTÜ layout (based on regular German ISO layout, obviously):
^1234567890ß´
QWERTÜZUIOP+
ASDFG#HJKLÖÄ
YXCVB<-NM,.
As you can see, the hands are moved apart a bit on average.

Next up is creating the layout for Windows. Thinking of moving around the various brackets a bit, too - [] might go to AltGr + 1/4, and {} might move to AltGr + 5/6. Their default placement is pure idiocy (AltGr + 8/9 and 7/0), no fun for programming. Maybe I'll shift the backslash (AltGr + ß) and forward slash (Shift-7) around a bit, too.

Other German specific modern-day layouts I stumbled across:
Neo
RISTOME

[JBert]

Interesting as this may be, it takes quite some willpower to actually go and change your keyboard layout.

Learning a new one is hard enough as it is, slightly modifying your current layout may be maddening at first.

[webwit]

Ditch your steam machine, switch to electricity.

[keyb_gr]

My dear fellow steam machine tweakers,

I have apparently stumbled over an unexpected difficulty with MSKLC: The build does not work. What do I need for that, some MSVC++ or such I guess? Or would anyone with functional build mind helping me out?

I guess there we have the reason why MSKLC is not commonly discussed...

[Rajagra]

Originally Posted by webwit

Ditch your steam machine, switch to electricity.

I just found out that a new version of the DataHand has gone into production. Awesome!

Originally Posted by keyb_gr

My dear fellow steam machine tweakers,

I have apparently stumbled over an unexpected difficulty with MSKLC: The build does not work. What do I need for that, some MSVC++ or such I guess? Or would anyone with functional build mind helping me out?

I guess there we have the reason why MSKLC is not commonly discussed...

Validating the layout gave some warnings...

    WARNING: } (U+007d) is already defined more than once on the keyboard (on VK_6, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt' and VK_0, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt').
    WARNING: { (U+007b) is already defined more than once on the keyboard (on VK_7, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt' and VK_5, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt').
    WARNING: [ (U+005b) is already defined more than once on the keyboard (on VK_8, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt' and VK_1, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt').
    WARNING: ] (U+005d) is already defined more than once on the keyboard (on VK_9, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt' and VK_4, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt').
    WARNING: / (U+002f) is already defined more than once on the keyboard (on VK_OEM_MINUS, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt' and VK_7, ShiftState 'Shift').
    WARNING: \ (U+005c) is already defined more than once on the keyboard (on VK_OEM_4, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt' and VK_OEM_PERIOD, ShiftState 'Ctl+Alt').
    WARNING: 'y' defined on OEM_102 (Base) but not defined elsewhere. This key may not be present on all keyboards.
    WARNING: 'Y' defined on OEM_102 (Shift) but not defined elsewhere. This key may not be present on all keyboards.
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '0' and '=' (VK_0, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '1' and '!' (VK_1, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '2' and '"' (VK_2, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '3' and '§' (VK_3, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '4' and '$' (VK_4, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '5' and '%' (VK_5, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '6' and '&' (VK_6, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '7' and '/' (VK_7, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '8' and '(' (VK_8, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '9' and ')' (VK_9, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '#' and ''' (VK_H, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '+' and '*' (VK_OEM_PLUS, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between '.' and ':' (VK_OEM_MINUS, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between ',' and ';' (VK_OEM_PERIOD, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').
    WARNING: Caps Lock is set between 'ß' and '?' (VK_OEM_4, ShiftStates 'Base' and 'Shift').

I changed some of the "Caps=Shift" settings and managed to compile it.

[ripster]

Oh now that picture is SO wrong....

[Rajagra]

You should have tried this on the Boscom, it's the keyboard equivalent of sawing a lady in half:

Cutting the plastic frame of the keyboard required slower blade speeds. My initial cut -- all the way across the keyboard -- resealed itself due to the heat of the blade. It wasn't even noticeably weakened, though I'd passed a blade completely through it. It was kind of surreal. A slower blade speed did the job.

[ripster]

I did.



Now I have a sharp table saw but still I was impressed with how clean the cuts were. I plan on trying to do more precise cuts later and epoxying the two pieces together to make a Buckling Spring Numpad. I wanna learn from Talis's mod first before putting it all together.

[DreymaR]

Originally Posted by JBert

Interesting as this may be, it takes quite some willpower to actually go and change your keyboard layout.

Learning a new one is hard enough as it is, slightly modifying your current layout may be maddening at first.

Have you actually tried that, or are you guessing? Because I have. The consensus over at the Colemak forum is that the fewer keys you have to move the easier it is to learn - and it feels fairly 'expontential' too! I have learnt Dvorak, I have learnt Colemak (much less keys moved than Dvorak) and I have learnt the 'Comfort' shift. The former two did require a major effort (keep in mind that I had to learn Colemak coming from Dvorak instead of from QWERTY as it 'should be'...); the latter not at all.

I learnt the Bottom Half Row 'Comfort' Left Shift in almost no time. I was surprised at how easy it was to adapt to, since no fingering had to change but merely the angle you hit the keys at. If you think about it, you can probably type on a few different keyboards where the keys aren't exactly alike - my IBM M has a longer space bar so I have to hit the AltGr key differently for instance. It isn't hard to adapt to and after a few tries you don't think about it anymore. The only thing that took a little while to learn for me was switching back and forth without thinking. That took a few weeks, but not really an effort.

This experience inspired me to create a transitional layout so that you can learn Colemak in two separate steps instead of all at once - the Tarmac Transitional Colemak layout! I obviously haven't tried that since I already knew Colemak by then, but at least one other guy did and he absolutely loved it. That obviously doesn't count for a lot since one guy doesn't make a statistic, but I think it feels right.

[DreymaR]

Originally Posted by webwit

Ditch your steam machine, switch to troll powa.

Fixed. Isn't your shtick getting old by now, webwit? :)

On a more serious note: I'm very unsure about that board. As mentioned before, I feel that sideways finger motion would be stressful so that much of the gain might go away; since I haven't tried it I'll not pass any judgement but I'm sceptical.

More importantly though, using that board would be expensive - and incompatible with all the hardware we have at my workplace. I'm not going to lug a keyboard around to type on, even if it's a nice one! My Colemak layout on the other hand, allows me to type with comfort and runs portably anywhere I can get net or USB access. That's almost everywhere I go.

While we're on the topic of tweaking things better: Maybe a Colemak-based DataHand would be even better than a QWERTY-based one? I'd be surprised if it weren't. It's possible that same-hand rolls that are so nice on a normal keyboard wouldn't sit well with the DataHand however, in which case Dvorak might be a better option because that has less rolls and more hand alteration instead.