Author Topic: MS ergo4000 +cherry brown, Now tenkeyless (Read 22468 times)

Lanx · « **on:** Wed, 23 June 2010, 12:28:19 »

Ok, new user started b/c of the cheap abs for 20bucks about 3 months back, stopped cuz of carpal tunnel (i've used the ergo4000 for 5 years and have never had a problem) tried the softer cherry 8400 ml switches, carpal tunnel after 2 weeks, always go back to the ergo4000, now i'm modding a ergo4000 base and putting in a cherry g80 base,

advice and all that please, i started to trace the keyboard of an older ms keyboard then found i had an ocz alchemy laying around and that pcb is smaller so i've started to trace those keys( just really placing two wires while it's connect to usb and seeing what key comes up in notepad/keyboardtest)

in short this site has pointed to great info about the very few ergo keyboards about, and i'm not going to go high and low trying to find a keyboard thats not around, so i'll just gut one and use the ergo4000 which i'm very familiar with.

i guess i'll use spagetti wiring(i can't solder i'll learn) and just use ocz controller (the microsoft one is impossible). I can't dremel either, i think i did pretty well so far.

it's not meant to look pretty, i just want a functioning keyboard that is ergo4000 style with cherry browns, and i'm sure it won't have nkro, tho i don't even know why i'd need it, thanks for future comments!

updated pic

in working condition.

Superfluous Parentheses · « **Reply #1 on:** Wed, 23 June 2010, 14:13:32 »

Can't give you much (or any) advice regarding modding, but I must say I was pretty pleased with the MS 4000 as far as layout was concerned, but I didn't like the relatively heavy space bar and modifier keys. And then it broke, and I pulled the old Model-M out of the closet, which did take some getting used to but I love it now

Personally, I'd love a MS-4000 (basic layout, without all the extra crap) with overall lighter - or at least, more accurate - switches, and a ten-key-less version would be great.

Good luck with your mod!

colbabe · « **Reply #2 on:** Wed, 23 June 2010, 14:49:26 »

Quote from: Superfluous Parentheses;195787

Personally, I'd love a MS-4000 (basic layout, without all the extra crap) with overall lighter - or at least, more accurate - switches, and a ten-key-less version would be great.

Good luck with your mod!

Ditto - I wonder what Microsoft would think of your idea? Sure couldn't hurt to propose? Give 'em something new to think about.

Rajagra · « **Reply #3 on:** Wed, 23 June 2010, 17:11:07 »

Interesting.

Did you manage to cut up an existing PCB and flex it to match the curves, or did you mount the switches on a new plate of some sort? I'd also like a Cherry brown MS 4000, reduced in size a bit if possible, but even at the full size it would be something special.

To get full n-key rollover, you need:

A controller that supports it;
A diode coming off every switch, 'pointing' the right way.

If you only have the diodes, it might vastly reduce the chance of keys being blocked, but will really only have 3-key rollover (i.e. some combinations of 4 keys will confuse the controller.) Depending on the controller programming, it might remain at 2-key rollover.

Lanx · « **Reply #4 on:** Wed, 23 June 2010, 17:39:38 »

yea i just dremeled up a g80-8200 (i think) pcb and all it was a steal actually, it was pristine new(never used) but the controller i guess didn't work(i pluged it in too and just blank) so it was awesome for 26 bucks.

i was thinking about cutting off the numpad /direction area too, but i use that section a lot (number entering) and i don't find the smaller keyboard all that awesome anyway.

the cherry browns all have diodes in em, no idea the purpose.

Phaedrus2129 · « **Reply #5 on:** Wed, 23 June 2010, 22:02:35 »

The diodes are for NKRO.

clickclack · « **Reply #6 on:** Thu, 24 June 2010, 00:08:42 »

I like it, congrats and I hope it works out!
Welcome to geekhack btw =)

Maybe someone can chime in here but I thought when I joined this site someone mentioned that they had a cherry brown board very similar to what this MS ergo board. Any thoughts?

itlnstln · « **Reply #7 on:** Thu, 24 June 2010, 07:46:00 »

This is a dream keyboard of mine. I love the MS 4000 but hate the domes. Good work, keep it up.

Lanx · « **Reply #8 on:** Mon, 28 June 2010, 21:00:52 »

mapped out the ocz pcb but then i couldn't solder any wires to the contacts cuz i guess of some epoxy or enamel, so now i'll just go back to the microsoft pcb, it even has holes for easy soldering!

Dwhangkhui · « **Reply #9 on:** Wed, 07 July 2010, 14:18:56 »

epoxing the Microsoft keycaps to the cherry stems would be really cool.
I really like the oversized spacebar/modilifier keys
But I think the keycaps are unremovable

Superfluous Parentheses · « **Reply #10 on:** Wed, 07 July 2010, 15:03:08 »

Quote from: Dwhangkhui;200396

epoxing the Microsoft keycaps to the cherry stems would be really cool.
I really like the oversized spacebar/modilifier keys
But I think the keycaps are unremovable

No, you can get the caps off of the 4000. Just tried it. But you'd need to glue on new stems, which from what I've seen on this board is hard to do correctly; lots of work to make sure the stems are on exactly straight and in the right place, especially with the strange shape of the modifier keys.

Dwhangkhui · « **Reply #11 on:** Thu, 15 July 2010, 03:28:02 »

yeah, but that makes it look more complete mod.
maybe buying some spare stabilizers and placing them according to the cap can help

jumpfroggy · « **Reply #12 on:** Fri, 23 July 2010, 13:41:07 »

I *love* this project! I had an Ergo 4000 for about a week a while back. I loved the layout - I'd tried MS's previous ergo boards, but they were nothing special. The Ergo 4000 had a pretty amazing layout - not radical, but obviously and immediately better feel than standard keyboards.

However, the key switches & keys themselves were horrendous! I might have even stayed with a non-mechanical had it not been for the keys. The spacebar was the worse, but most of the keys had binding issues.

This project would solve the worst of the problems, which is awesome.

Any updates? I'd love to see how you did the insides, how you mounted the keys, etc. I'd definitely consider doing this with some Cherry switches if it works out for you.

I'd also love to see how the old modifiers & spacebar could be kept. The old modifiers were strangely shaped - very large & slightly flatter. The spacebar was awful - tons of flex, very large, only one switch in the middle with no stabilizer bars (?!?!). I'd split the space bar into two sides, a switch for each, and just wire them to the same contacts. You could avoid binding, and still keep the good shape of the key.

I would imagine that replacement standard-size modifier keys are going to be harder to press, since they're much more spaced out.

Good luck... updates! Pics! We demand more!

(PS. Also, a review of how it works now and your thoughts/feelings so far would be awesome)

itlnstln · « **Reply #13 on:** Fri, 23 July 2010, 16:17:22 »

Agreed. It would be nice if MS just came out with this to spare us the need to mod. Hell, if it came with Topre switches, I would pay the premium for that, too.

SirClickAlot · « **Reply #14 on:** Fri, 23 July 2010, 16:42:47 »

Excellent mod.

Closest I am to something like this is with the Omnikey Evolution.

Lanx · « **Reply #15 on:** Wed, 28 July 2010, 23:37:37 »

no updated pics sorry, just drilling holes to "mount" the pcb to the plastic of the keyboard and finalizing finding all the pins to a logitech controller i found (i've killed 3 of my extra keyboards i had laying around, this logitech keyboard has exposed pins for solder, kinda awesome). Had to deal with other hardware issues, like new mouse and then a 1 week stomach virus.

jumpfroggy · « **Reply #16 on:** Thu, 29 July 2010, 00:40:19 »

I'd love to see even pics of the drilling, switches, etc. Those are almost more useful than the finished-product pics, since I'm interested in the details you're solving. Things like how to mount all the switches to the curved base, etc.

Keep up the good work, can't wait to hear how it turns out.

Lanx · « **Reply #17 on:** Tue, 28 September 2010, 03:17:10 »

long overdue, so much work was eating up my time i took a few days off to... mod, yea sad isn't, but like i said, i liked the ergo browns, but i cannot type (cuz of cts/rsi) on anythihng but a ergo4k so.
...
got a logitech controll all mapped out (even have the bios/windows keys no idea what they do but someone will shed some light or point me to a link i'm sure)
started rerouting the keys, got one part of the left side almost done (at least on side of the switch)
i hope by today i'll be done w/ the left side.

kinda thinking about making it tenless! you know before i solder more stuff on there.
i'll update pics later, so late!

Lanx · « **Reply #18 on:** Tue, 28 September 2010, 23:49:37 »

here's my work area, yea it's my kitchen, dishwasher area, hey it's an apt, i'm tired of working over my carpet!
keyboard controller looks like the egg laying alien

this is almost all the backside linked wiring

lotsa alligator clips, testing out the left side and trouble shooting

passed the aqua test, awesome program btw, thanks whoever rec'd it!

got the left side in, i have it screwed down with two screws if you look carefully, so i don't get wierd movement.

Lanx · « **Reply #19 on:** Wed, 29 September 2010, 13:12:08 »

been doing some measuring and i have no place to put the controller actually, whoops guess i'll let it hang outside in a project box or something till i figure out a way.

Lanx · « **Reply #20 on:** Thu, 30 September 2010, 13:11:13 »

decided to hack off the keyboard, after asking around and testing, i "REALLY" only need my keypad for data entry (i'm not going w/o one) so i'll move it to the right, regardless, it's been hacked off, i figure i might as well go all the way if i've gone this far.

Lanx · « **Reply #21 on:** Fri, 01 October 2010, 03:15:31 »

don't think i'll have the time to do what i initially wanted, to have both the ms controller (for the macro ability and to use the back/foward button, it's a nice switch) and just have a basic keyboard and shelp my nostromo on the side to macro. (ripster's mod is looking nice to have now for the nostromo, too much cherry tho! i think i'll stay away from cherry switches for a bit).

Lanx · « **Reply #22 on:** Sat, 02 October 2010, 23:47:23 »

95% fully assembled and working. (the other 5% i have to add back the media buttons, i kinda like those) but yea, fully works for typing (i'm sure if i fps i'll strafe horribly tho) but it's awesome right now, if i have the time i'll go mod the media buttons in. or i might mod a nostromo n50 inside it too, idk! but using it now as a ergo 4k tenless. will post pics of it at desktop later. (enter feels funny tho).

hoggy · « **Reply #23 on:** Mon, 04 October 2010, 14:13:40 »

I like it.

I'm glad you kicked the numpad off the desk. It goes to prove that more keyboards should have a layout like this out of the box.

WhiteRice · « **Reply #24 on:** Mon, 04 October 2010, 14:26:51 »

Ever think about going into business making custom ergo keyboards?

Lanx · « **Reply #25 on:** Mon, 04 October 2010, 21:04:30 »

Quote from: WhiteRice;229662

Ever think about going into business making custom ergo keyboards?

Lol no way, this is going to be a mod i won't be doing for a while, if an act of god damages this board (wierd drink spillage) i'm getting some tenless cherry brown lol.

editing note,
I'm gonna move the |\, key down and just dup that existing key as an enter button, i keep hitting that key thinking it's enter (probably from the ergo4k being enter that way) but it'll be simple to do i think, i'll do it when i feel like fulling modding it w/ the nostromo n50 built in. (unless i can't stand hitting the
|\, all the time)

question, anyone know why my enter key "feels" slugging? it doesn't feel as nice as the "shift" ones w/ stabilizers, and i know that the space bar has a different keycap(i think cherry white/clear).

Lanx · « **Reply #26 on:** Tue, 05 October 2010, 17:12:43 »

rewired the |\, pipe backslash key to be enter/return. moved it down to near the right alt (just soldered another switch). works fine, melted up arrow by accident tho =/

Lanx · « **Reply #27 on:** Thu, 07 October 2010, 16:08:30 »

replaced the not used scroll button (never used it anyway) with a big enter button, i always use the numpad enter button for well enter basically and kept on hitting where it used to be, so i decided to take this area and put another enter button, much like the kinesis and other ergo keyboards (i don't use it for typing just when i want to enter in quick stuff, like a google search or something)

I'd like to use the middle for more buttons, but it's physically and structurally impossible, the rest of the area is what is holding the keyboard together basically, so anymore modding to that area and the keyboard would probably buckle.

i was modding my nostromo n50 into it also but i think i burnt out the board, i don't know how but it just doesn't work anymore, strange cuz i was all up in the n52 board just yesterday, guess this full mod will have to wait till i can ebay another n50.

Daniel Beaver · « **Reply #28 on:** Thu, 07 October 2010, 17:15:33 »

Good stuff, I'm going to have to try this someday with my MS Natural board. Too bad that there aren't any inexpensive ergonomic boards with mechanical switches.

Lanx · « **Reply #29 on:** Fri, 08 October 2010, 09:58:43 »

I decided to try modding in a logitech g15 controller, i've never seen the insides of one before but i just won a used one and will see how that will work out. I mean i'm gonna mod the g15 controller into this one and possibly even the LCD? i don't know how that is going to work out tho, it would be cool. I've also gotten microswitches for the other buttons, i'll have to see how those will work out too for the macro's.

Lanx · « **Reply #30 on:** Fri, 15 October 2010, 05:35:02 »

got my g15, wow this thing looks nice, all keys and lcd works great steal for 13bucks (keys just look grimey, not gonna use those anyway!)
so playing around w/ the keyboard i decided i really like it, especially the on the fly macro recording, and even thinking about swapping my current keyboard controller w/ the g15 one too, but thats gonna take a lot of time so i think i might make a new mod, for now i think i'll go and mod it up, but i can't use the display, or at least i have no way of incorporating the display and making it look nice so i think i'll try to find a g110 for cheap or a g11 (w/o lcd's and more macro buttons)

Lanx · « **Reply #31 on:** Tue, 19 October 2010, 10:39:05 »

here's the g15 disected, look at all those traces!

so i finally settled on where i want to put the g15 lcd, it'll be right here

the reason for this is because my secondary monitor is currently right over where the g15 display normally is so it wouldn't even be useful for me in that way. I got a few micro switches and settled on this one with the elongated switch and i figure i'd drill a few of these into the board for the g15 lcd selection.

Oh don't worry about the faux leather part, i've actually scrapped off all the plastic underneath there and i just have to pull the faux leather a bit to expose more lcd, i just can't do that now cuz well it's a mod in progress which sucks cuz i'm using this keyboard daily so i can only mod it when i don't plan on working, which also sucks too cuz now i'm way too used to my split ergo brown to even want to use another keyboard!

zefrer · « **Reply #32 on:** Tue, 19 October 2010, 12:11:38 »

It's pretty funny how well that keyboard sells in gaming circles, considering it's not actually that good at games.

Hey Lanx, do you have F1-F4 on the left side there and F5-F12 on the right? Have you also thought of hacking off the top part where the macro/media buttons used to be? Since you said you're not going to use the original MS controller.

You could make up a diagram of the key switches, sans keycaps, and send it off to get a layer of plastic/acryllic/whatever machined to that spec. To use as a cover underneath the keycaps, with the switches popping out of the layer.

Should make it look cleaner I think.

Lanx · « **Reply #33 on:** Tue, 19 October 2010, 13:06:43 »

Quote from: zefrer;235990

Hey Lanx, do you have F1-F4 on the left side there and F5-F12 on the right? Have you also thought of hacking off the top part where the macro/media buttons used to be? Since you said you're not going to use the original MS controller.

You could make up a diagram of the key switches, sans keycaps, and send it off to get a layer of plastic/acryllic/whatever machined to that spec. To use as a cover underneath the keycaps, with the switches popping out of the layer.

Should make it look cleaner I think.

yea i have f1-f4 specifically in place there cuz i like the f4-f5 seperation so i can "feel" for f4.

actually i bought microswitches for those media keys, i'm gonna use those keys for the g15, i kinda have it laid out so that the first 3 media keys will be profile 1,2,3, the big my fav button will be macro record and then 1-5 will be the logitech gkeys, (i'm gonna use back/foward too).

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Author Topic: MS ergo4000 +cherry brown, Now tenkeyless (Read 22468 times)