geekhack
geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: KylJoy on Mon, 20 February 2012, 00:33:34
-
I'm not sure where to post this and it is GB related so I dropped it here.
Too clarify, I'm not *****ing about Ragnarok's GB. I think the way he is running it is AWESOME. I'm just wondering about the economics of these group buys in general. I am still relatively new to GH and these GBs. Seems like some folks are willing to pay more $$$ for fewer keys. I'd spend a few more $$$ to get a lot more caps to increase my chances of matching various keyboards in the future.
Here are some numbers from the Ragnarok Red/Black GB:
If 50 people each bought a Ragnarok, a Phantom kit and a 104 kit it would cost them $79.00 each.
If 75 people each bought a Ragnarok, a Phantom kit and a 104 kit it would cost them $67.00 each.
But I bet there would be even more savings if the only offering in the GB were for all of those keys in one set. I bet the cost of each set (for 50) would be more like $60 each. Heck, throw in ISO and the price might be $65? And at this rate it looks to me like we are well on our way to 75 base orders.
I'm not asking anyone to change anything. I'm just wondering if the options are really worth it in the end. Right now the base set for the Ragnarok GB is $52.00. But if 75 of us were buying a set with all of the keys in it it would only be another few bucks or so to get all of it. And everyone would get what they wanted/needed.
So, why not just have one big set with no options? Those of you with more experience please school me.
-
The idea behind having different options is so that for the people that don't need the extras keys from ALL sets, it would be cheaper for the majority since only a small percent want the add on kits. I do see your view though to force everyone to buy a set that includes everything. Maybe Rag can as SP again the cost of all kits included and the 75 and up tier.
This thread would probably be more appropriate in a different section since it's just a question and not an actual interest check or group buy order thread.
-
But I bet there would be even more savings if the only offering in the GB were for all of those keys in one set. I bet the cost of each set (for 50) would be more like $60 each. Heck, throw in ISO and the price might be $65? A
I like the idea of a TKL group buy because I don't have any use for phantom/iso keys and minimal use for a 104 set, certainly not enough to warrant paying $65 compared to hopefully $45
-
I would assume the prices on the round4 GB would give you an idea of the difference between the base prices for TKL and 104.
104 users have become the minority by far... doesn't make sense for all of us to suffer and be left with 17 extra keys we would have no use for. Even if the price difference would be $5-10 I really would have no use for those extra keys...
If we cater things to minority we'll end up with round4. Ridiculous amounts of customization for stupid prices.
-
If you come to sell them on at a later date it does open up your sale to more people.
-
I would assume the prices on the round4 GB would give you an idea of the difference between the base prices for TKL and 104.
104 users have become the minority by far... doesn't make sense for all of us to suffer and be left with 17 extra keys we would have no use for. Even if the price difference would be $5-10 I really would have no use for those extra keys...
If we cater things to minority we'll end up with round4. Ridiculous amounts of customization for stupid prices.
This.
-
In the extreme case that is R4. You can see why more options is a bad thing, especially when the price to support them is built into everyone else' orders.
I rather see a GB happen than it to please everyone and then not happen at all.
Not trying to insult R4 and 7Bit. It's just the GB took a bad turn and it spiraled out of control.
-
I think less choice would lead to lower prices since more of the one set being offered would be purchased. And, from the manufacturer's point of view, they want to sell more stuff. So, buying 17 more keys (or whatever the number is) would cost a few more dollars for folks not wanting them, would provide all parties with keys they need/will need, will make the GB simpler to run/manage/complete, will make the GB faster, will most likely lead to more interest since all options are covered in one set, will make the GB simpler for the manufacturer, will allow the manufacturer to better justify their production, etc.
I don't see how these GBs can offer less choice without removing choices by incorporating the additional kits into the base without the costs going up. I mean, take the Red/Black GB for example. If 10-key, ISO and Phantom kits were not being offered the folks buying those kits may not be buying the base either (since they need/want the additional keys). Using the current numbers from the first posts, that means that 37 of the 55 people buying the base set might not buy it since they couldn't get all of the keys to meet their needs. If that is true, it would reduce the total number of base sets to 18. If those numbers are close to accurate (and they are not perfect) the GB would not even be able to run since it looks like 25 sets are required to make it happen, and at $70.00 for 25!!
So, to me it sure looks like having one large, all-encompassing set would mean that everybody gets the keys they need and the GBs would be much simpler for everyone including SP. FYI - I don't need all of those keys either, but I sure will want them if I get a Phantom some day.
-
I think less choice would lead to lower prices since more of the one set being offered would be purchased. And, from the manufacturer's point of view, they want to sell more stuff. So, buying 17 more keys (or whatever the number is) would cost a few more dollars for folks not wanting them, would provide all parties with keys they need/will need, will make the GB simpler to run/manage/complete, will make the GB faster, will most likely lead to more interest since all options are covered in one set, will make the GB simpler for the manufacturer, will allow the manufacturer to better justify their production, etc.
I don't see how these GBs can offer less choice without removing choices by incorporating the additional kits into the base without the costs going up. I mean, take the Red/Black GB for example. If 10-key, ISO and Phantom kits were not being offered the folks buying those kits may not be buying the base either (since they need/want the additional keys). Using the current numbers from the first posts, that means that 37 of the 55 people buying the base set might not buy it since they couldn't get all of the keys to meet their needs. If that is true, it would reduce the total number of base sets to 18. If those numbers are close to accurate (and they are not perfect) the GB would not even be able to run since it looks like 25 sets are required to make it happen, and at $70.00 for 25!!
So, to me it sure looks like having one large, all-encompassing set would mean that everybody gets the keys they need and the GBs would be much simpler for everyone including SP. FYI - I don't need all of those keys either, but I sure will want them if I get a Phantom some day.
Theres a tradeoff. By baking the extra kits into the base kit, means that everyone gets all the parts and the extra parts are cheaper. But at the same time, there are people who know they will never need the extra parts and shouldn't be charged a bit more for keys they don't need. We satisfy those with extra needs by giving them the extra addons. I think that works out to be the fairest for everyone.
I don't think anyone is gonna run a GB of keys where they will not offer the extra keys that people need. But I think that the people who do want them, pays the premium to get those keys, not split between everyone regardless of what they want.
I think the main argument against your model of All keys in one kit is that 'It is not fair for people to pay more for keys that they don't need and are essentially paying extra for some other people to get it cheaper'. I mean you can argue YOU may want extra keys at some point, but not everyone. The majority is satisfied with just the base kit. At the point where there are more people who want both sets, it may be wise to put them in.
It does work out that if I have 1 set instead of 2 separate sets, it will be cheaper to get the 1 set. But only fair to use it if most people need both sets.
-
I understand. But the "minority" seems to be the "ten-keyless only" folks. At least, according to the numbers. Numbers currently show:
Order counter:
Ragnarok- 55
Phantom- 13
104- 19
ISO- 5
Does this mean that 55-13-19-5 = 18 "Ten-keyless only" buyers? There are probably some of those ISO, Phantom and 104 buyers that are the same individuals buying multiple sets which would raise the number of "Ten-keyless only" folks, I think. It would be cool to see the numbers so that we know what's up. Since I'm still relatively new this may all be water under the bridge for some of you. We need a Group Buy Economics Wiki put together once we understand the current makeup of this community and see how the numbers work out. Hmmm... I'll contact Ragnarok and see if he wuld mind sending me the numbers and I'll see how it comes out and post it here and try to start a WIKI.
-
Also the problem with the logic of 37/55 is that those 37 are spread across 3 seperate kits. If all three kits were included in the base price there is no way we would be able to keep it that low. And those within the addon groups wouldn't even need all the kits! So it wouldn't really make sense for anyone...
Its like buying a customized computer. You don't include expensive parts that not everyone needs. Maybe it would be cheaper to manufacturer one single, premade unit but then the cost would be slightly higher and then less appealing for a lot of people. Start simple, and build from there would be easier.
-
I understand. But the "minority" seems to be the "ten-keyless only" folks. At least, according to the numbers. Numbers currently show:
Order counter:
Ragnarok- 55
Phantom- 13
104- 19
ISO- 5
Does this mean that 55-13-19-5 = 18 "Ten-keyless only" buyers? There are probably some of those ISO, Phantom and 104 buyers that are the same individuals buying multiple sets which would raise the number of "Ten-keyless only" folks, I think. It would be cool to see the numbers so that we know what's up. Since I'm still relatively new this may all be water under the bridge for some of you. We need a Group Buy Economics Wiki put together once we understand the current makeup of this community and see how the numbers work out. Hmmm... I'll contact Ragnarok and see if he wuld mind sending me the numbers and I'll see how it comes out and post it here and try to start a WIKI.
Big sets only work if you get lots of orders, this is not lots of orders.
You are also assuming far too much, if only tenkeyless is available there will just be the same amount of orders almost, minus maybe the ISO people, a lot of the people thats getting the 11 key add on set own MANY keyboards and will still buy it if it didn't fit the Phantom or any of those keyboards that 11 key will make it fit. Same goes with 104 keys add on.
Yes you might think its good to get extra keys you don't use but that is not the same for everyone, forcing someone to buy an extra 30ish keys they won't be using could/will make some people not want to get the set and have a counter effect.
It's fine the way it is as GH is a very diverse place unlike kbdmania and OTD where they make like 2-4 sets a year and they do a universal set and have like 170+ keys but they get A LOT of orders compared to us.
People don't mind paying a bit more for what they want instead of paying a bit more for what they don't want
-
I understand. But the "minority" seems to be the "ten-keyless only" folks. At least, according to the numbers. Numbers currently show:
Order counter:
Ragnarok- 55
Phantom- 13
104- 19
ISO- 5
Does this mean that 55-13-19-5 = 18 "Ten-keyless only" buyers? There are probably some of those ISO, Phantom and 104 buyers that are the same individuals buying multiple sets which would raise the number of "Ten-keyless only" folks, I think. It would be cool to see the numbers so that we know what's up. Since I'm still relatively new this may all be water under the bridge for some of you. We need a Group Buy Economics Wiki put together once we understand the current makeup of this community and see how the numbers work out. Hmmm... I'll contact Ragnarok and see if he wuld mind sending me the numbers and I'll see how it comes out and post it here and try to start a WIKI.
Yeah the problem with your argument is that those "minorities" are still split in what they want. If you made an "fit-all" kit. There would be keys that one grp wanted but not another. For example, ISO people who don't' want the Phantom keys and Phantom people who don't' want a 10key.
Tsangan sums up this whole thing up quite nicely:
People don't mind paying a bit more for what they want instead of paying a bit more for what they don't want
In the end it's about the situation. I'm running my GB for QWER kit with a addon of some LoL specific keys. Turns out that 95% people get both sets, making one big kit worth it. I'm actually buying up the extra sets myself, but in my case I could very easily not offered the option of getting the kits separate. The main reason I didn't was that I started the GB with the option and figured half way that it was cheaper to get them together. I wasn't going to go back on my words and change how things worked.
-
ppl seem to forget the meaning of community
-
ppl seem to forget the meaning of community
Could you elaborate, please? Not sure what you are referring to.
-
I'm not sure where to post this and it is GB related so I dropped it here.
[...]
If 50 people each bought a Ragnarok, a Phantom kit and a 104 kit it would cost them $79.00 each.
If 75 people each bought a Ragnarok, a Phantom kit and a 104 kit it would cost them $67.00 each.
[...]
So, why not just have one big set with no options? Those of you with more experience please school me.
One fit all rules the world!!!
But, I doubt everyone wants a fat TERMINAL kit with 300+ keys in it ...
I wish Ragnarok more luck with it than I had.
-
I am a TKL only user. I have no use for 104 keysets. Unless the 104 add on only cost like 5 extra dollars at the most, I don't care to order it one bit. I'm just one person but I'd bet there are quite a few out there that feel the same. Keycaps are expensive, so maximizing my purchasing power is high on the list for me. 87 GBs accomplish just that.
-
People don't mind paying a bit more for what they want instead of paying a bit more for what they don't want
QFE
Case closed
-
ppl seem to forget the meaning of community
We haven't. That's why they are extra addons.
It is one thing to get those extra kits for them, but its a different story when I start paying for someone else's 'cheaper addon keys' with my money. My extra money isn't the determining factor of whether or not their kit can be made, but rather how cheap they get it. That, in my opinion, is unfair.
A communities where we help each other out, but I don't think we are the kinda that should be sharing our money. I don't mind drawing images for others to use. I don't mind giving tips to people. But it's different when you want me to pay with money to another user. Money brings out the worse in us, its sad but true.
-
QFE
Case closed
Well, I'm sure not arguing against that statement. And I am not making a case against it so I'm not sure what case is closed. :) I'm saying something else - more like, "People ARE willing to pay LESS for something they don't want to avoid paying MORE for only what they DO WANT" or even, "People are willing to pay a tiny bit MORE for something they do NOT want to avoid paying even MORE than that for ONLY what they want." LOL...
Does this apply here? Maybe not.
Here's an example of Mickey D economics that I HATE... But it's how it works:
I go to the drive through window at McDonald's 'cause I'm late to a meeting and need to eat (while I'm driving so LOOKOUT FOR ME). LOL Anyway, when I go to order I see that I could pay $4.99 for a sandwich + $0.99 for fries OR $5.49 for a sandwich, fries and soda (I made these numbers up for this example). I don't want a &%$#ing soda, but I want fries. I really want a nice glass of fresh, clean water with my meal. But if I do not get the soda I have to PAY MORE!!! It drives me CRAZY... So, I buy the meal-deal and get a water on the side instead of paying more for less. If I don't drink the soda, so what? I saved money by buying the meal as a unit. Whether you know it or not you folks do this sort of thing all the time and it saves you $$$. In the McD example the people buying LESS pay MORE due to the economic realities. McD knows that there is more money to be made from selling the entire set of food than there is from selling a smaller set of items. This should also apply to lower costs overall (instead of profit in the McD example) in the GH group buys. This model is inverted in the GH GBs. Is that OK? I guess so. But it means that people that are buying MORE are paying for the discounts of the people paying LESS - (I.E. the number of base kits would not be as high and the kit may not even get made or it would cost $70.00 each, etc.). Of course, the base price gets lower for EVERYONE when this happens. Fair? I dunno. Probably.
I hope to do some quick math later to see how it all pans out. Yes, there will be assumptions in there unless I do some sort of poll thingy.
-
if you think you know how to run the greatest group buy ever, then by all means do it. in the meantime i'm going with the folks who are willing to do the work and who have a proven track record.
-
Practical example that applies to GH: PBT keycaps offered in 87 or 104 kits offered by various vendors here. Take for example Qtan, who is probably the main source of PBTs for most on this site, offers black engraved kit 87 for $41.99. The 104 kit version goes for $45. That's a $3.01 difference between the two kits, the only difference being the 17 extra keys that some people don't need. $3 isn't much at all. For 17 keys, 3 seems like a great deal. But paying extra for something you have absolutely no use for?... Well, not much of a reason to buy it then. It doesn't really make sense for Qtan to offer two seperate kits, at a $3 difference, but they both still serve their purpose and obviously sell well or else the options wouldn't be offered.
In a group buy, it would be a lot more then a $3 difference simply because of the way that SP pricing works. But what's worse is you might deter people away because so many extra addons that don't apply to them are raising the cost, even if only slightly, making the base price higher for everyone.
With the way the currennt Ragnarok GB is working, you can ensure a lower base price kit which will help EVERYONE.
-
if you think you know how to run the greatest group buy ever, then by all means do it. in the meantime i'm going with the folks who are willing to do the work and who have a proven track record.
Woah... Where did that come from? I am buying things in GBs on GH, too. And I think they are run really well. I only intended to start a discussion on this so I could understand the drivers behind cost structures and perhaps eventually learn that one method over another would lead to lower costs for more product and simpler GBs. As Hazeluff mentioned earlier "In the end it's about the situation. I'm running my GB for QWER kit with a addon of some LoL specific keys. Turns out that 95% people get both sets, making one big kit worth it." That's all I am trying to figure out - Can getting more mean a lower cost for everyone in more cases?
I apologize to anyone who has taken this thread in any other way. Please accept my apologies.
-
Practical example that applies to GH:
[...]
With the way the currennt Ragnarok GB is working, you can ensure a lower base price kit which will help EVERYONE.
Thank you for the description. I appreciate it.
-
I only want the 87 pc. personally. So I would like it at the lowest price possible.
-
Here's an example of Mickey D economics that I HATE... But it's how it works:
I go to the drive through window at McDonald's...
I found the problem! You need to go to In-n-Out instead.
-
I am a TKL only user. I have no use for 104 keysets. Unless the 104 add on only cost like 5 extra dollars at the most, I don't care to order it one bit. I'm just one person but I'd bet there are quite a few out there that feel the same. Keycaps are expensive, so maximizing my purchasing power is high on the list for me. 87 GBs accomplish just that.
I agree.
-
You guys are pretty selfish.
Either way we look at it.
-
You guys are pretty selfish.
Or is it the other way around?
-
Or is it the other way around?
mind = blown.
Personally I don't mind paying a small premium for a few extra keys that I won't use if it means an overall cheaper price.
-
"Turns out that 95% people get both sets, making one big kit worth it." That's all I am trying to figure out - Can getting more mean a lower cost for everyone in more cases?
There is a point where getting a big kit is cheaper is worth it. It depends on where you want to put that point at. It all comes down to:
-How many people benefit from getting both kits cheaper
-How many people are forced to pay more to buy bits they don't want
-How much cheaper is the bigger kit (or How much saved)
Maybe the point where it's
Amount saved (by people who want both kits) = Amount extra paid (by people who don't want the extra kits).
is where you want to draw the line. It's up to who runs it. I think alienating groups by simply not offering will be silly, since that hurts the GB as a whole. I think we can agree on that. But this "When is it worth it to get one big kit over multiple kits" is debatable.
Then we can consider a case where we think of the people who won't get the kit because the addon is expensive vs those who wan't get the big kit because they don't need the extras. I think this case is very rare, maybe one or two people, but not enough to be damaging to the GB.
Personally I don't mind paying a small premium for a few extra keys that I won't use if it means an overall cheaper price.
I can't a way that this can be true unless the bigger kit draws in 25+ more people to bump you up a price reduction. You'd get this reduction even if we attracted these people by offering the small kit + addon. A bigger kit can only increase price unless it brings you up a price discount.
-
Or is it the other way around?
This. I myself want the kit that suits me. This is expensive hobby as is. I'm all about community but don't feel it's my duty to buy useless things so others can get a discount.
-
To me, it seems like OP stumbled into the 87 ragnarok GB and thought, "gee, these are some sweet keycaps. Too bad I need the 104 set(judging by his sig)." Upon looking at the numbers, he probably noticed that the 104 add on was a good amount more expensive compared to if everyone just ordered a 104 kit instead of an 87, prompting this thread. I think it's an interesting point to bring up, since theoretically the 87 + 104 kit could be ridiculously more expensive than just doing all 104s, and in that case it may actually be warranted if the price increase to go from base 87 to 104 is minimal.
I don't think that is the case though. 104 add on people may need to pay a bit more compared to all doing 104, but any extra money that you are paying for it is just going to be footed by the 87 people who are forced to spend more on something they don't need. What it seems to come down to, IMO, is whether or not you want a 104 kit or an 87. If you want a 104, of course you want a better deal and want as many sets as possible ordered or even just a 104base kit. If you are a TKL person, you don't want the extra keys and the cost that comes along with it. The 87ers might benefit from the extra 104 orders since they add more 87 bases to the list, but the only other viable options are to have 104 be the base kit or just do no 104.
Is this selfish? No. Just everyone wanting the best deal for themselves IMO. That being said, if the price increase from 87 to 104 is too high, nobody is forcing you to buy it. There are 104 key GB's and I've never noticed TKL people complaining about the extra keys. Last I checked, the red/black and cream cheese were both originally designed to JUST be an 87 key GB with no addons whatsoever, rag and tsangan decided to add the kits to let more people get in on it.
One last thing, that McDonalds analogy was rather poor IMO. If you went through the window and you could get a big mac and fries for 6.00 but the meal for 7.00 (even if you don't want the soda), would you still get the meal? That is how I feel about the 104 add on. I don't want to pay a dollar extra for a drink that I'm just going to waste, it's not in my best interest.
If it's selfish to want an 87 keyset in an 87 group buy that also happens to have the option of add on kits, then you're god damn right I'm selfish. IMO it's much more selfish to have EVERYONE foot the bill so a minority can enjoy a better deal.
edit: i r no good speling
-
To me, it seems like OP stumbled into the 87 ragnarok GB and thought, "gee, these are some sweet keycaps. Too bad I need the 104 set(judging by his sig)." Upon looking at the numbers, he probably noticed that the 104 add on was a good amount more expensive compared to if everyone just ordered a 104 kit instead of an 87, prompting this thread...
I'm involved in many GBs and those Cream Cheese and Green look SWEET!!! And FWIW, my first TKL is on it's way but I do prefer to purchase larger keycap sets that'll cover me if I want to use the sets on full-sized keyboards. But that's me, not necessarily everyone else.
I'm not opposed to paying for what I want and I'm doing so in every GB and other transaction that I'm involved in. I've got the money that I work hard for (in my opinion) and that's what it's for - buying what I want/need. And I don't want anyone subsidizing my purchases. I'm a capitalist. :)
What prompted this thread is my curiosity concerning the viability of some of the GBs if the add-ons were not offered since the numbers might not be there to support the manufacturing of the key sets, etc. I see many posts for base sets + add-ons. I do not know what the ratios are. I am curious. That's all. It MAY be true that without the add-ons the sets could never go to production since there wouldn't be enough buy-in or that the base sets would cost an exorbitant amount. Would people still buy them? Probably, I have no idea - that's why I'm looking at this. And, if it were to turn out that everyone would save more $$$ if the base set were larger I think that it would be a win for everyone - not just 104 keyers. I don't yet have the numbers to do the math. It will most likely turn out that people buying the add-ons are in the minority. So be it. I am not on either side of an argument and I don't think anyone is being selfish, just frugal. You work hard for your money, too!!
I'm not referring directly to Snowboarder3 when I say this, but boy oh boy this seems a touchy subject for some reason. Perhaps there is a past concerning pricing or costs at GH that I am unaware of.
-
I can't a way that this can be true unless the bigger kit draws in 25+ more people to bump you up a price reduction. You'd get this reduction even if we attracted these people by offering the small kit + addon. A bigger kit can only increase price unless it brings you up a price discount.
I'm not sure how SP's price structure's work, but this could also be the case if it is cheaper to buy (for example) 50 104key kits over 50 TKL + 50 104key add-on kits.
TBH I'm a lot less concerned about this stuff over the discounts received because of SP's poor pricing brackets where (taking the current Meme keycaps group buy in consideration) if everyone doubled their longcat order, they'd literally pay just about the same thing for double the amount of keycaps because of the quantity discounts. This is a different issue though.
-
One of these days a shrewd group buy runner is going to notice that it's most cost effective to just order all 104-sets, discount the cost difference to 87-key buyers (and pay the small amount themselves, if they even need to (see above examples)) and keep the other keys.
Then turn around and sell them at a markup.
-
One of these days a shrewd group buy runner is going to notice that it's most cost effective to just order all 104-sets, discount the cost difference to 87-key buyers (and pay the small amount themselves, if they even need to (see above examples)) and keep the other keys.
Then turn around and sell them at a markup.
Mark up of what? $10?
Assuming the tenkeypad is $5 extra on top of the 87keyset what are you going to sell them at? lol
What a waste of time
-
People get touchy about 'how GBs are run' because they want to make sure that they KEEP RUNNING. Many are of the opinion that you don't F with a system that works and well... there's a few guys that have really figured out how it works which is why more GBs are running to completion in a timely manner. (Thank you very much, guys)
-
But is there a demand for a bunch of ten key only sets. Maybe a few.
-
One of these days a shrewd group buy runner is going to notice that it's most cost effective to just order all 104-sets, discount the cost difference to 87-key buyers (and pay the small amount themselves, if they even need to (see above examples)) and keep the other keys.
Then turn around and sell them at a markup.
You should read Rag's post about doing something similar and take into account what market there is for an add-on kit to a kit that was only produced once and had that add-on kit available at production time. Which is to say if someone wanted it they bought it already, so who are you gonna sell your extra add-ons to?
-
I'm not referring directly to Snowboarder3 when I say this, but boy oh boy this seems a touchy subject for some reason. Perhaps there is a past concerning pricing or costs at GH that I am unaware of.
Agreed about the touchy subject thing. Thanks for the well thought out response! I just like debate ;)
-
I'm not sure how SP's price structure's work, but this could also be the case if it is cheaper to buy (for example) 50 104key kits over 50 TKL + 50 104key add-on kits.
Yes this is how it would be.
But this is a different issue to the breaks from one level to another.
As for the comment by someone else about taking the hit and buying the 104 over the 87 and selling the 10keys. You'll find that this doesn't work as not many people want to buy just a 10key. The demand will be on the more wanted part (87 key) and the less on the 10key, which is why we split them up in the first place. If 10 keys were wanted. There would be no problem just selling 104 kits.
Money and how GB's run is somewhat touchy. But this is why we try to run them as transparent as possible.
-
As long as I don't get secretly charged MORE for a GB kit than what I expected to pay . . . who cares.
To anyone who has run, is running, or will run a group buy (whether or not I participate): thank you very much.
-
Before proceeding, let it be known that I reserve the God-given right to be completely wrong about everything you read below. :)
I am using raw numbers from the Ragnarok Red/Black GB. I have no one's information, just raw numbers. Some interesting numbers are showing up. These might be a bit stale by the time I post this.
There are currently 57 buyers total.
There are exactly 33 base kits in the Ragnarok Red/Black GB being bought by people with NO ADD-ON KITS
There are exactly 33 base kits in the Ragnarok Red/Black GB being bought by people that are also buying SOME ADD-ON KITS
There are 30 buyers of 87 key kits only, more than one in 3 cases, but no add-on kits.
There are 27 buyers buying at least one 87 key kit and one or more add-on kits.
It looks like a 3 people are buying the Ragnarok set for both 87 and 104, ISO or Phantom key layouts since 3 are buying multiple base sets and one or more of the add-on kits in a way that I can "ASSUME" that I know what they are doing. If someone is buying 2 base kits and 2 ISO kits I'm assuming they are not using a base kit on an 87 key. If they are buying 3 base sets and 2 104 kits I assume they are using 1 kit on an 87 and the other 2 on 104s. Could I be wrong? You bet. There is no way to tell their intentions from the raw numbers. But I'm gonna see where this leads.
Here's some ideas, thoughts, ramblings:
- If I remove all of the orders for folks that appear to be ordering for keyboards larger than 87 key and make sure to include 104 key buyers that look like they also are ordering for an 87 key the number of total base kit buyers is 33 and the total number of base kits they'd be ordering is 36. This would mean that the cost of the 87 key base set would be at $70.00 but it would have made it past the minimum requirement of 25 sets. So, it would be made but it would be costing $18.00 more than the current price of $52.00 per set.
- According to the price list, if all 66 of us were to buy all of the kits it would cost each person $79.00 (price for ISO still unknown though, probably not zero). This is higher than the $70.00 you would be paying if the add-on kits were not available and everyone wanting a 104/ISO/Phantom kit didn't order 'cause they couldn't get the keys they wanted/needed. Is that realistic? I think not. But I'm trying to see the extreme ends of the spectrum.
- According to the price list, if we get to 75 people and each person were to buy all of the kits it would cost each person $67.00 (price for ISO unknown) which is now below the $70.00 that would be paid for only the base set IF it were true that none of the folks buying base kits AND add-ons were to buy anything since they couldn't get what they want/need for their KBs. Again, looking at extremes.
- There may be a greater savings which would drop the cost considerably further per person if SP knew that they'd be selling that many more keys per order. True? I dunno. I haven't talked to them about it. Some here seem to believe that there would be little to gain. Perhaps they are right. They've been here doing this for a while and probably know how it works. It might be cool if Ragnarok would ask SP what the cost per set would be if there were 75 sets of all of it ordered. Then we'd know. Maybe it would be $50 per set? Maybe $45? Then all of those extra keys are free (at the 75 sets number) compared to the current price structure. Hell, for all I know she'd double the cost to $90. :)
I'd sure like to get all of those pretty keys for $45.00 or $50.00 instead of $67.00 (at 75 sets). Possible? Maybe? Probably not? Hopefully someone will ask. I'll PM Ragnarok and see if he is comfortable asking tomorrow.
Peace
-
Honestly if $17 USD is that big of a deal to you, I would suggest a cheaper hobby. I saw a couple people bring up R4 which I am guessing is having pricing problems because it has ALOT of stuff in it meaning there isnt alot of any one thing being bought which is exactly how R3 went (which a bunch of us complained about, but in the end its 7bits buy and he can do what he wants). At this point I would just be happy we have this many group buys, A couple years ago it was near impossible to find a filco, leopold or 87U and we had no CM's or black widows.
-
Honestly if $17 USD is that big of a deal to you, I would suggest a cheaper hobby. I saw a couple people bring up R4 which I am guessing is having pricing problems because it has ALOT of stuff in it meaning there isnt alot of any one thing being bought which is exactly how R3 went (which a bunch of us complained about, but in the end its 7bits buy and he can do what he wants). At this point I would just be happy we have this many group buys, A couple years ago it was near impossible to find a filco, leopold or 87U and we had no CM's or black widows.
I am very happy with all these group buys. BUt we don't all have endless supplies of money to throw around. And I want to get in on as many of these as possible, so 17 here, 10 here, 5 here can make a difference.
-
Like I said, find a new cheaper hobby or be happy with what you have. If that isn't good enough go make your own group buys for whatever you want, this is an enthusiast forum not walmart.
-
Honestly if $17 USD is that big of a deal to you, I would suggest a cheaper hobby..
Um yeah $17 is significant, and I'm not even a poor college student like many of us here.
Before proceeding, let it be known that I reserve the God-given right to be completely wrong about everything you read below. :)
No need to pre-apologize. Money is a touchy subject, but I'm glad you brought this up. It's been a good discussion.
-
But what we're saying here is why should the majority of participants in a group buy have to pay $17 for what a minority (about 1/3 of the group) needs? The minority shouldn't be dictating the prices, especially if its a substantial difference. A marginal difference I'd understand. Extra $1-5 to make everyone happy and make everything easier for the GB. But $17 , in this example? There's no reason to make everyone suffer.
$17 is enough to participate in another GB if you buy single keys / etc cool stuff that goes on around here.
It's an expensive hobby I won't argue with that, but no need to make it even more unnecessarily expensive.
-
i think what Lpb45 is saying is that you have to decide for yourself whether having 17$ is more or less important to you than having a delete key with pedobear on it :lol:
ps, i appreciate the discussion on how to most efficiently run a GB, but until i have the time to personally run one, i'm going to have to defer to what the people who are successfully running them want to do.
-
Listen, if the problem is that big of a deal for you, make your own group buy??? Hmmmm??? If you dont want to do that obviously it isnt worth saving that extra 17 dollars? Oh thats right you want someone else to do it for you and do it the way you want. What the **** happened to this country.
-
Listen, if the problem is that big of a deal for you, make your own group buy??? Hmmmm??? If you dont want to do that obviously it isnt worth saving that extra 17 dollars? Oh thats right you want someone else to do it for you and do it the way you want. What the **** happened to this country.
Listen son, you need to chill out. OP has made it clear that he has no beef with how anyone is running the buys. He just wanted to have a discussion, which is what we're having.
-
All this discussion is just trying to help improve group buys. We're not pointing any blame to any specific user and how they run their GB, nor are we saying we could do a better job at it then they are. We're simply speculating in order to see if there are more efficient alternatives.
No need for any hard feelings.
-
That is a very very extreme case as you've said. Realistically there are a some who will get the kit regardless of availability of the addon and also I think the person running the GB would have sense to have the addon kits.
I want to raise my very own question and want to see how people feel.
Say I'm running a GB
50 Sets @ $30/set
75 Sets @ $25/set
At 63 sets, it is actually cheaper to get 75 kits than 63 kits. What should happen to the 12 kits remaining? It can't be split evenly between the buyers and the OP is not able to pay for them as he doesn't have enough money. It would be silly not to get 75 kits, but what should happen to those remaining 12 kits?
Does the buyer profit the 12 kits? He can't afford to spread the money back to the people as a discount as he can't afford it at the moment. What do?
-
Honestly if $17 USD is that big of a deal to you, I would suggest a cheaper hobby. I saw a couple people bring up R4 which I am guessing is having pricing problems because it has ALOT of stuff in it meaning there isnt alot of any one thing being bought which is exactly how R3 went (which a bunch of us complained about, but in the end its 7bits buy and he can do what he wants). At this point I would just be happy we have this many group buys, A couple years ago it was near impossible to find a filco, leopold or 87U and we had no CM's or black widows.
Wth is your problem. Again in and of itself 17 bucks is not a lot. But add it to every group buy and it is. Flaming people is not helping this discussion. My viewpoint has been I like the gb ran just like it is. So how is that trying to make it how I want it or whatever you said.
-
I am very happy with all these group buys. BUt we don't all have endless supplies of money to throw around. And I want to get in on as many of these as possible, so 17 here, 10 here, 5 here can make a difference.
Here is your answer earlier. So since you are broke/cheap you want people to change a system that works very well and we are all lucky to have these people doing. Who says flaming anymore anyways lmao. Another guy in this thread is comparing the GB's to buying a value meal at Mcdonald's.
-
...What do?
Great question! That's what I'm trying to find out. :)
-
Does the buyer profit the 12 kits? He can't afford to spread the money back to the people as a discount as he can't afford it at the moment. What do?
Is this assuming the 63 sets that were bought are being invoiced at $25 each? <- That should be something that every group buy does when it reaches the actual price breaks (not the ones that SP set).
In regards to the extra 12 kits, now that's a harder question which I have no answer for. The easiest solution would be to let the organiser's pocket that for their time.
EDIT: It would be best if the organisers would be willing to sell those extra sets back to the community (if anyone missed the group buy) at the prices they were going for. These sets are all extras any ways. But I do understand that in a lot of cases they would want to add a premium (and that is of course, their right to).
-
Here is your answer earlier. So since you are broke/cheap you want people to change a system that works very well and we are all lucky to have these people doing. Who says flaming anymore anyways lmao. Another guy in this thread is comparing the GB's to buying a value meal at Mcdonald's.
When did I say I wanted anything changed??? I want it just as it is now, the option to but an 87pc base kit if thats all I want. You are misunderstood.
-
Is this assuming the 63 sets that were bought are being invoiced at $25 each? <- That should be something that every group buy does when it reaches the actual price breaks (not the ones that SP set).
In regards to the extra 12 kits, now that's a harder question which I have no answer for. The easiest solution would be to let the organiser's pocket that for their time.
Yes we buy 75 @ $25/set as 63 @ $30/set is the same price we pay to SP. Its more expensive to by buying at the lower price after 63 sets.
Also Lpb45, calm down bro. Noone's whining here, noone's flaming each other here. Theres no need to go all on the offensive mate. We're trying to be constructive about how GBs are run. Voice your opinion, but theres no need to go after people who think otherwise.
-
This. I myself want the kit that suits me. This is expensive hobby as is. I'm all about community but don't feel it's my duty to buy useless things so others can get a discount.
Right here. Should I go on?
-
I want to raise my very own question and want to see how people feel.
Say I'm running a GB
50 Sets @ $30/set
75 Sets @ $25/set
At 63 sets, it is actually cheaper to get 75 kits than 63 kits. What should happen to the 12 kits remaining? It can't be split evenly between the buyers and the OP is not able to pay for them as he doesn't have enough money. It would be silly not to get 75 kits, but what should happen to those remaining 12 kits?
Does the buyer profit the 12 kits? He can't afford to spread the money back to the people as a discount as he can't afford it at the moment. What do?
well, this is the whole issue with group buys -- ultimately what you're actually doing when you run one is reselling product that has a long lead time. because this is an enthusiast community, buyers are tolerant and sellers try not to go full-on profiteer, but this is the only reasonable way to think about the monetary exchange involved. i pay you, hazeluff, and you guarantee that subject to manufacturing schedules, you will get me some product at some point. in some sense the payment is kind of like a bridge loan that i'm extending to you so that i can get my bizarre niche product that no one else wants. in exchange, you assume the risk and responsibility of being this product's reseller.
when you look at it this way you realize that you can do any of the above, as long as it's clear at the beginning of the transaction what the terms of the transaction are. if i give you 30$ for exactly one set of caps, and then you deliver me that set of caps, i'm happy, and i have no reason to complain, since those were the terms we both agreed to. if you then make money over that, that's fine -- i didn't agree to a share of any profits. if instead you promise to chip in and share profits, then you have to make good on that. again, since you're assuming the risk and responsibility you can set what terms you want a priori, as i can always decide to based on terms whether to advance you my cash.
-
What he said...
-
well, this is the whole issue with group buys -- ultimately what you're actually doing when you run one is reselling product that has a long lead time. because this is an enthusiast community, buyers are tolerant and sellers try not to go full-on profiteer, but this is the only reasonable way to think about the monetary exchange involved. i pay you, hazeluff, and you guarantee that subject to manufacturing schedules, you will get me some product at some point. in some sense the payment is kind of like a bridge loan that i'm extending to you so that i can get my bizarre niche product that no one else wants. in exchange, you assume the risk and responsibility of being this product's reseller.
when you look at it this way you realize that you can do any of the above, as long as it's clear at the beginning of the transaction what the terms of the transaction are. if i give you 30$ for exactly one set of caps, and then you deliver me that set of caps, i'm happy, and i have no reason to complain, since those were the terms we both agreed to. if you then make money over that, that's fine -- i didn't agree to a share of any profits. if instead you promise to chip in and share profits, then you have to make good on that. again, since you're assuming the risk and responsibility you can set what terms you want a priori, as i can always decide to based on terms whether to advance you my cash.
I've never seen it this way. But if you think about it, the "seller" assumes low/no risk as he is not putting any money on the line. Just the responsibility of getting what people want.
I've always seen this from the side of it's a group buy, the "seller" is just organizing and piecing everything together. He isn't actually "selling", just organizing. He is assuming a role to help the community (which I think is the way to think about it). I guess he should have some "pay" since he did put in the effort and time. But the 12 kits in this hypothetical situation is $300 and I don't think I'm exaggerating compared with a real life situation (I did however take the extreme of 12 kits left over, IRL it could be anywhere from 0-12, given this specific number of sets).
-
no, the seller is assuming worst-case risk appx equal to the total monetary size of the group buy, since buyers can demand their money back at any time and leave him with product that no one else in the world particularly wants.
-
If you think the organizer isnt taking any risk your nuts. Ask the couple people who have had their banks accounts locked because of "suspicious" activity on paypal.
-
:pop2:
-
If you think the organizer isnt taking any risk your nuts. Ask the couple people who have had their banks accounts locked because of "suspicious" activity on paypal.
That's an odd case. I mean risks in the sense of a business. Tho you could argue that paypal thing was a "risk"
no, the seller is assuming worst-case risk appx equal to the total monetary size of the group buy, since buyers can demand their money back at any time and leave him with product that no one else in the world particularly wants.
Ahh, but the "seller" in the case of GH GBs is always collecting money first (since he himself can't buy all the sets himself). It's a group buy situation, we are collecting money and then distributing keys.
-
This is why you don't see me participate in all the group buys. If you don't agree with the group buy's organizer (or his/her principle) then just don't buy it. lol It isn't the end of the world if you don't own certain keycaps. =P
-
what if the manufacturer doesn't deliver on-time or at all? what if enough buyers decide to pull out at the last minute that the manufacturer wants to change the pricing on everyone? every single what-if you can think of and then some you won't think of that could happen anyway and screw you over is a risk.
-
This is why you don't see me participate in all the group buys. If you don't agree with the group buy's organizer (or his/her principles) then just don't buy it. lol It isn't the end of the world if you don't own certain keycaps. =P
And this is the right attitude, if the price isn't right or you don't like the way its run don't join in, or make your own group buy. Completely agree.
-
That's an odd case. I mean risks in the sense of a business. Tho you could argue that paypal thing was a "risk"
Ahh, but the "seller" in the case of GH GBs is always collecting money first (since he himself can't buy all the sets himself). It's a group buy situation, we are collecting money and then distributing keys.
It may be odd but it has happened multiple times here on GH.
-
what if the manufacturer doesn't deliver on-time or at all? what if enough buyers decide to pull out at the last minute that the manufacturer wants to change the pricing on everyone? every single what-if you can think of and then some you won't think of that could happen anyway and screw you over is a risk.
I'd say tho stuff is on the low-very low risk side (high damages tho for some cases).
-
low risk is still risk....
-
what if the manufacturer doesn't deliver on-time or at all? what if enough buyers decide to pull out at the last minute that the manufacturer wants to change the pricing on everyone? every single what-if you can think of and then some you won't think of that could happen anyway and screw you over is a risk.
My biggest fear as a group buy organizer is lost and damaged mail.
-
Right here. Should I go on?
I guess you missed the fact that I prefer the way they are ran now. So that doesn't sound like me wanting things changed to benefit me.
-
My biggest fear as a group buy organizer is lost and damaged mail.
That's probably a big one. Common and pretty **** to deal with.
So I'm going with the "seller" keeps extras to cover any risks/damages.
-
I guess you missed the fact that I prefer the way they are ran now. So that doesn't sound like me wanting things changed to benefit me.
The reason I am so outspoken right now about this is because it worries me that this will start showing up in GB threads and will spread to other things people think should be in the GB's (or what ripster just pointed out, people will start complaining the shipping is too pricey) to the point of where the few good organizers we have will say "why am I even doing this?" and pack up shop. We are pretty lucky to have the GB's we do right now
-
I don't know why people get so upset about some pieces of plastic:
(Attachment) 41246[/ATTACH]
Thats what they said about the one ring.
-
The reason I am so outspoken right now about this is because it worries me that this will start showing up in GB threads and will spread to other things people think should be in the GB's (or what ripster just pointed out, people will start complaining the shipping is too pricey) to the point of where the few good organizers we have will say "why am I even doing this?" and pack up shop. We are pretty lucky to have the GB's we do right now
I think the GB organizers know to filter out that rubbish people sprout out and just run it the way they have always run it. I hope, like you do, is people don't follow one person's selfish requests.
-
The reason I am so outspoken right now about this is because it worries me that this will start showing up in GB threads and will spread to other things people think should be in the GB's (or what ripster just pointed out, people will start complaining the shipping is too pricey) to the point of where the few good organizers we have will say "why am I even doing this?" and pack up shop. We are pretty lucky to have the GB's we do right now
This thread should also help prevent that as people now have an outlet for them to voice their opinion about this stuff. That said, you're right (and I'm sure) we'll get people talking about this stuff in actual GB threads regardless.
-
Anyway I'm off to bed (I sadi this about an hour ago somewhere else).
Hope everyone can keep it civil. It's a discussion not a flame war. = ) There's some actual good content in this thread.
I think everytime someone whines about a way a GB is run, we link this thread.
-
Off to bed as well.
-
The reason I am so outspoken right now about this is because it worries me that this will start showing up in GB threads and will spread to other things people think should be in the GB's (or what ripster just pointed out, people will start complaining the shipping is too pricey) to the point of where the few good organizers we have will say "why am I even doing this?" and pack up shop. We are pretty lucky to have the GB's we do right now
I agree with this and want to clarify I love the group buys and am very grateful for them. I do prefer to have the choice of buying a tkl set or a full etc. But I am fine with the person running it to come to the final decision.
-
A lot of good points have been raised in this thread. I have only run 2 buys so far, starting my third potentially and it has been a learn as I go process. I took cues from what I read from those that came before me, and did my best to cater to as many as possible while still keeping within reason and being as fair as I can. Compromises are made, and/or executive decisions are laid down or it will die. You will never be able to make everyone happy, your buy is what it is.
It is VERY hard and a lot of work to come up with something that will be successful, that is widely appealing enough to make it viable and see it through all the way. There are very many boards to account for, but you have to make compromise and go for the majority market, and know what that market is. Majority rules, and that is the way it is and always will be with these custom caps. At the same time you need to keep an 'iron grip' as it were, to keep the outspoken minority from running away with your buy. This is a tricky balance to keep in sight. Pricing can be unusual, and not as expected, but that is another matter entirely for the most part due to SP having a monopoly more or less. Sometimes things do not add up, and will not due to the way SP does their business. Unfortunately there seems to be no alternatives presently.
Slightly off topic, but very related in my opinion from my last buy thread, is I would like to participate coming up with some general Gh GB rules, to lessen the variance from the way individuals run their buys. If there was a set protocol to be followed on both the organizer and buyer sides, I feel things would generally run a LOT smoother and make everyone more comfortable knowing what they are dealing with. I know I do not have all the answers, but I believe some general ground rules would be very constructive and beneficial to everyone involved. Sure there will still be some levels of trust and risk involved, but making things more uniform I believe will help a great deal.
-
I have been pretty silent about the whole group buy process since the incident with the Novelty buy but I think that I can offer some sort of insight on how all of this works out to be sketchy and yet stable at the same time. First, let me respond to a few quotes I found noteworthy.
If you think the organizer isnt taking any risk your nuts. Ask the couple people who have had their banks accounts locked because of "suspicious" activity on paypal.
While a lot of people may have dismissed what Lpb45 was trying to say this one hit home the hardest for me. Saving the story for later what I can say is that as a result of Paypal not liking me I lost the $70 I made from selling a handful of SC2 caps in October, I cannot use Paypal ever again in any way, and I had to get a new debit card (two because my bank misunderstood what I meant by a new number) in order to buy my new Leopold. What this means, for the misinformed, is that I cannot pay for or be payed for things using Paypal and in turn I do not have the capacity to create, run, or buy from group buys unless I have a proxy handle the payment for me (which he has done in the past and is a good friend of mine) or pay in cash (which I have the capacity to do with Rag). Furthermore, I was forced to back out of a buy I found to be rather awesome in the form of Hashbaz's RGB kit. These buys can be dangerous and at the blink of an eye all of the hard work put for them can vanish. Luckily for my buy Tsangan was there to sweep it off its feet and make it happen smoothly, regardless of the bumps faced by the 120+ buyers who had already paid me.
This is why you don't see me participate in all the group buys. If you don't agree with the group buy's organizer (or his/her principle) then just don't buy it. lol It isn't the end of the world if you don't own certain keycaps. =P
I read the group buy section about twenty times a day and every time I find a new post I evaluate the organizer. If they are not a prominent community member, if their structure is shotty or full of gaps, or if I just don't like their signature, I dismiss the post entirely. While I may want the product, I may NEED the product, it is necessary to walk away if it feels like a back alley deal.
Now, on to what I feel I can contribute to this discussion.
At the end of October 2011 I followed Rag in making a group buy but this time I took the keys that were in GB4 (People thought I would never have it done before they shipped in that buy) and create a moderately structured buy with loose ends for more keys and options. At the beginning there were about 15 options, including the StarWars keys that were later thrown out for copyright reasons, and reception was somewhat spotty. When the order post was put up the prices were $2 a piece for any cap and in the first week we had about ~300 key orders overall.
From this point I began looking at the SP pricing structure and decided that if the prices were flexible based on count and if I were diligent enough there could be rapid decreases in the prices of the most popular keys. This model, for the most part, started off slow until about the end of the second week when there were a few notable orders that were more confidence orders than anything. With these the prices of the Awesome faces and LoD fell to under $1.50 and the week later most of the keys were at the $1.50 mark with the best 1x keys being $.80. By the end of the buy this structure had everything popular down to $.41. What this meant, however, was that any profit I could make from this buy would become down to zero for the overhead and down to whatever I could make for the extras I bought on resale.
This, of course, was a judgement call. It is the job of the organizer to make these decisions to see the buy succeed. From what I recall the Novelty Group Buy ended up being the largest single order for novelty/single keys in the history of GH's group buy system because of the pricing structure; low prices brought on more orders and it snowballed because of SP's awesome price system.
Now, obviously, I was not the final figurehead doing the Novelty Buy because at the time of the money collection, three days after the invoices were sent out in fact, my Paypal became locked by the company and the dispute which followed forced me to do a reversal of all money collections. With this I was forced to pay all of the Paypal fees back, lose my Paypal account, and lose access to Paypal's instant pay services. My existence as a group buy organizer ended because of this and I promptly had to back out of several buys I was partaking in.
Therefore, I look at Group Buys a little differently than people. The organizer takes the risks to make a buy, and make it run smoothly, and in turn makes decisions on what will benefit them the most. Some take direct profit, others draw profit from free keys, and the special breed do it for the love of keyboards. There is no one rule of thumb which can and must apply to Group Buys because they are not a store, a corporation, or a foundation. They are, in the end, one or multiple people sticking their necks out there to do something amazing.
-
What I learned about paypal, and why they lock accounts... well lots of reasons... basically ANY reason. To be more specific the big 2 are, a large flood of 'gifts', and or a large amount of merchandise that is not marked shipped within 1 week, which seems to be the BIG one. Don't do these things. I did not collect anywhere near the amount you did in my last buy, but a healthy mix of gift and merch, with me marking them as shipped immediately and hoping those people don't f*ck me and file disputes... and so far no hassles from paypal. My first buy i got some warnings... and ever since I have had all payments held for 30 days, and that was a very meager buy with few participants. Paypal sucks, but there are few reasonable alternatives.
-
Some good discussion here (in amongst a few people seemingly incapable of understanding the original point and question - perhaps those people actually did not want to understand?). I think there could well be some cases where the OP's suggested scenario panned out and everyone might pay less if there was single large set of keys but the trouble would be that one would need to know that up front and overcome the 'but I should pay less, I only want 87 keys' knee jerk reaction by insisting that if we all stick together it will be cheaper for everyone. That sort of counterintuitive leap is not something our monkey brains are good at dealing with so people choose not to participate so the numbers aren't achieved to make the 'bulk buy' that the original assumption relies on and we are back in hell again.
As in all things to do with money psychology is at least as important as reality. Consider this sort of weirdness:
''Moreover, an apparent discrepancy in gender was all it took to increase men’s willingness to make financially riskier decisions. In another experiment, participants were shown photos of groups of people: some where women outnumbered men, some where men outnumbered women, and some with an equal number of each. Afterwards, experimenters asked participants whether they would rather be paid the following day, or wait for a greater amount in a month. The result? After viewing photographs graced by fewer women, men were much more likely to choose $20 the next day over waiting a few weeks for $30.''
http://danariely.com/ (http://danariely.com/)
Overcoming that sort of irrational pre-programming is not something GH GB organisers are equipped to handle.
All very interesting stuff.
Mostly just wanted to say a big thanks to everyone who takes the trouble to organise these GBs for us.
I was already in awe of the amount of work people put in for little or no reward and hadn't considered the issues around PayPal and the like making it even more troublesome.
A good eye opener for me on just how lucky we are to have GH and the community that we have.
Group hug everyone.
-
Here's my two cents: If buying 50 sets of 140 key caps costs $17/ea more than buying 50 sets of 87 (while driving the cost of various "sets" into $20, $40, $60, $100+ range), WTF!? The solution seems crystal clear: create ONE "complete" set of 140, collect the $87 from everyone who wants in on the deal, and all but a few can have extra key caps to play with. Then everyone is happy.
Remember, if you try to buy one set of just 87 SP key caps direct from SP it will cost you around $400. Yes, Melissa quoted me approximately
FOUR HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR ONE SET OF KEYCAPS!
Why are we niggling over $20, when we are saving ~$300 per set by building group orders??? I think my math is close enough to make a valid point. If not, sorry. And maybe I'm wrong, and the five ISO people here are all gazillionaires and don't mind paying the big premiums to let the college kids save $17...
I am curious what a "complete" keycaps set for the GH community would be. Anyone?
-
...my Paypal became locked by the company and the dispute which followed forced me to do a reversal of all money collections. With this I was forced to pay all of the Paypal fees back, lose my Paypal account, and lose access to Paypal's instant pay services.
What I learned about paypal, and why they lock accounts... well lots of reasons... basically ANY reason. To be more specific the big 2 are, a large flood of 'gifts', and or a large amount of merchandise that is not marked shipped within 1 week, which seems to be the BIG one...My first buy i got some warnings... and ever since I have had all payments held for 30 days, and that was a very meager buy with few participants. Paypal sucks, but there are few reasonable alternatives.
Hmmm these kinds of stories is making me reevaluate the way I receive payment for my GB. I received over 80 payments in the past month, and I gave people the option to send payment as 'gift' to shave off ~$1. The majority by far took advantage of this gift option, but so far I haven't gotten any warnings or notifications from paypal. *knocks on wood*.
BTW, I also commend all other GB organizers. Before I ran my first GB (lol only a few weeks after I registered on GH), I never realized how much time it demanded. I thought it was just a simple order from the manufacturer, then mass ship everything at once. Sure it's just a few PMs here and there, but multiplied by 50+ people and it takes up a few hours a day to answer all questions, back and forth communication between the manufacturer, sort payments and organize all info/data on excel spreadsheet, packaging and shipping, etc.. Hats off to the rest of the GB organizers for your time and dedication to make it work for everyone else.
-
I had a PayPal account locked up tight and terminated (and a few hundred dollars all but stolen by PayPal)** simply for writing to them to ask if the vendor's "PayPal payment page" was legitimate (it was).
** The only reason I eventually did get my money back is because I am tenacious like a badger. I read ALL of their legalese, and discovered the hidden clause that allowed me to file an arcane request "after six months...but before six months and one week". THAT is PayPal. They suck. paypalsucks.com exists for good reason. But we don't have a lot of choice. So, if you use PayPal, learn the tricks to stay under their radar.
I think that if I run my GB for pink/white double shots I'll just have people mail me checks. :-)
-
if you think you know how to run the greatest group buy ever, then by all means do it. in the meantime i'm going with the folks who are willing to do the work and who have a proven track record.
This had already been done:
Round 3
We will never ever be able to do that again!
:-(
-
This had already been done:
Round 3
We will never ever be able to do that again!
:-(
Best GB ever imo
-
Here's my two cents: If buying 50 sets of 140 key caps costs $17/ea more than buying 50 sets of 87 (while driving the cost of various "sets" into $20, $40, $60, $100+ range), WTF!? The solution seems crystal clear: create ONE "complete" set of 140, collect the $87 from everyone who wants in on the deal, and all but a few can have extra key caps to play with. Then everyone is happy.
This won't work because not enough people are willing to spend that amount of money and get 37% more keycaps than they need at a price they don't like to begin with. Unless it was the ultimate keyset that everyone would die for then you won't get enough people placing an order for it to be $87 to begin with. I'm sure there is demand for 140keys of some style, but that demand isn't enough for any 1 style to get the prices low enough that people interested in 87 keys of the style are willing to pay the price for 140keys to get it.
-
i need to read this thread
-
i need to read this thread
Thinking about group buys?
-
i need to read this thread
Thinking about group buys?
group buys are depressing, wonder if that thread has been done yet.....do we have a group buy therapy thread?
-
i need to read this thread
Thinking about group buys?
group buys are depressing, wonder if that thread has been done yet.....do we have a group buy therapy thread?
Pretty sure that's the GH60 thread. :blank: :blank:
-
i need to read this thread
so read it and dont bump it.
when the **** are mods going to crack down on this necroing ****?
-
i need to read this thread
Thinking about group buys?
group buys are depressing, wonder if that thread has been done yet.....do we have a group buy therapy thread?
Pretty sure that's the GH60 thread. :blank: :blank:
that's not therapy; that's a memorial. you get sadder after leaving.
-
i need to read this thread
Thinking about group buys?
group buys are depressing, wonder if that thread has been done yet.....do we have a group buy therapy thread?
Pretty sure that's the GH60 thread. :blank: :blank:
that's not therapy; that's a memorial. you get sadder after leaving.
I'm so glad I didn't buy anyone GH60 order like I wanted to do last year, that donkey has been shipping "soon" for way too long. Pretty ridiculous when you consider I bought a GH60 PCB on Taobao like 14 months ago and have been using it for nearly a year.
-
i need to read this thread
so read it and dont bump it.
when the **** are mods going to crack down on this necroing ****?
mods got better things to do, except hoffman.....hoff....you saw nothing.....
-
they really don't.
-
they really don't.
guess you could report it
-
I'm so glad I didn't buy anyone GH60 order like I wanted to do last year, that donkey has been shipping "soon" for way too long. Pretty ridiculous when you consider I bought a GH60 PCB on Taobao like 14 months ago and have been using it for nearly a year.
At this point I'd be willing to forgo my stabs if I just got my GH60 and plate. We're going on 3 years with the buy.
-
I'm so glad I didn't buy anyone GH60 order like I wanted to do last year, that donkey has been shipping "soon" for way too long. Pretty ridiculous when you consider I bought a GH60 PCB on Taobao like 14 months ago and have been using it for nearly a year.
At this point I'd be willing to forgo my stabs if I just got my GH60 and plate. We're going on 3 years with the buy.
I still can't believe they are holding up a buy for something as stupid as stabs. So many places that people could go get them themselves without holding up the whole show.
-
they really don't.
guess you could report it
or you can not do that ****.
but asking that of you would be too much.