Group Buy Economics

[KylJoy]

I'm not sure where to post this and it is GB related so I dropped it here.

Too clarify, I'm not *****ing about Ragnarok's GB.  I think the way he is running it is AWESOME.  I'm just wondering about the economics of these group buys in general.  I am still relatively new to GH and these GBs.  Seems like some folks are willing to pay more $$$ for fewer keys.  I'd spend a few more $$$ to get a lot more caps to increase my chances of matching various keyboards in the future.

Here are some numbers from the Ragnarok Red/Black GB:

If 50 people each bought a Ragnarok, a Phantom kit and a 104 kit it would cost them $79.00 each.

If 75 people each bought a Ragnarok, a Phantom kit and a 104 kit it would cost them $67.00 each.

But I bet there would be even more savings if the only offering in the GB were for all of those keys in one set.  I bet the cost of each set (for 50) would be more like $60 each.  Heck, throw in ISO and the price might be $65?  And at this rate it looks to me like we are well on our way to 75 base orders.

I'm not asking anyone to change anything.  I'm just wondering if the options are really worth it in the end.  Right now the base set for the Ragnarok GB is $52.00.  But if 75 of us were buying a set with all of the keys in it it would only be another few bucks or so to get all of it.  And everyone would get what they wanted/needed.

So, why not just have one big set with no options?  Those of you with more experience please school me.

[WhiteFireDragon]

The idea behind having different options is so that for the people that don't need the extras keys from ALL sets, it would be cheaper for the majority since only a small percent want the add on kits. I do see your view though to force everyone to buy a set that includes everything. Maybe Rag can as SP again the cost of all kits included and the 75 and up tier.

This thread would probably be more appropriate in a different section since it's just a question and not an actual interest check or group buy order thread.

[snowboarder3]

But I bet there would be even more savings if the only offering in the GB were for all of those keys in one set.  I bet the cost of each set (for 50) would be more like $60 each.  Heck, throw in ISO and the price might be $65?  A

I like the idea of a TKL group buy because I don't have any use for phantom/iso keys and minimal use for a 104 set, certainly not enough to warrant paying $65 compared to hopefully $45

[fstop]

I would assume the prices on the round4 GB would give you an idea of the difference between the base prices for TKL and 104.

104 users have become the minority by far... doesn't make sense for all of us to suffer and be left with 17 extra keys we would have no use for. Even if the price difference would be $5-10 I really would have no use for those extra keys...

If we cater things to minority we'll end up with round4. Ridiculous amounts of customization for stupid prices.

[dirge]

If you come to sell them on at a later date it does open up your sale to more people.

[hazeluff]

I would assume the prices on the round4 GB would give you an idea of the difference between the base prices for TKL and 104.

104 users have become the minority by far... doesn't make sense for all of us to suffer and be left with 17 extra keys we would have no use for. Even if the price difference would be $5-10 I really would have no use for those extra keys...

If we cater things to minority we'll end up with round4. Ridiculous amounts of customization for stupid prices.

This.

[hazeluff]

In the extreme case that is R4. You can see why more options is a bad thing, especially when the price to support them is built into everyone else' orders.

I rather see a GB happen than it to please everyone and then not happen at all.

Not trying to insult R4 and 7Bit. It's just the GB took a bad turn and it spiraled out of control.

[KylJoy]

I think less choice would lead to lower prices since more of the one set being offered would be purchased.  And, from the manufacturer's point of view, they want to sell more stuff.  So, buying 17 more keys (or whatever the number is) would cost a few more dollars for folks not wanting them, would provide all parties with keys they need/will need, will make the GB simpler to run/manage/complete, will make the GB faster, will most likely lead to more interest since all options are covered in one set, will make the GB simpler for the manufacturer, will allow the manufacturer to better justify their production, etc.

I don't see how these GBs can offer less choice without removing choices by incorporating the additional kits into the base without the costs going up.  I mean, take the Red/Black GB for example.  If 10-key, ISO and Phantom kits were not being offered the folks buying those kits may not be buying the base either (since they need/want the additional keys).  Using the current numbers from the first posts, that means that 37 of the 55 people buying the base set might not buy it since they couldn't get all of the keys to meet their needs.  If that is true, it would reduce the total number of base sets to 18.  If those numbers are close to accurate (and they are not perfect) the GB would not even be able to run since it looks like 25 sets are required to make it happen, and at $70.00 for 25!!

So, to me it sure looks like having one large, all-encompassing set would mean that everybody gets the keys they need and the GBs would be much simpler for everyone including SP.  FYI - I don't need all of those keys either, but I sure will want them if I get a Phantom some day.

[hazeluff]

I think less choice would lead to lower prices since more of the one set being offered would be purchased.  And, from the manufacturer's point of view, they want to sell more stuff.  So, buying 17 more keys (or whatever the number is) would cost a few more dollars for folks not wanting them, would provide all parties with keys they need/will need, will make the GB simpler to run/manage/complete, will make the GB faster, will most likely lead to more interest since all options are covered in one set, will make the GB simpler for the manufacturer, will allow the manufacturer to better justify their production, etc.

I don't see how these GBs can offer less choice without removing choices by incorporating the additional kits into the base without the costs going up.  I mean, take the Red/Black GB for example.  If 10-key, ISO and Phantom kits were not being offered the folks buying those kits may not be buying the base either (since they need/want the additional keys).  Using the current numbers from the first posts, that means that 37 of the 55 people buying the base set might not buy it since they couldn't get all of the keys to meet their needs.  If that is true, it would reduce the total number of base sets to 18.  If those numbers are close to accurate (and they are not perfect) the GB would not even be able to run since it looks like 25 sets are required to make it happen, and at $70.00 for 25!!

So, to me it sure looks like having one large, all-encompassing set would mean that everybody gets the keys they need and the GBs would be much simpler for everyone including SP.  FYI - I don't need all of those keys either, but I sure will want them if I get a Phantom some day.

Theres a tradeoff. By baking the extra kits into the base kit, means that everyone gets all the parts and the extra parts are cheaper. But at the same time, there are people who know they will never need the extra parts and shouldn't be charged a bit more for keys they don't need. We satisfy those with extra needs by giving them the extra addons. I think that works out to be the fairest for everyone.
 
I don't think anyone is gonna run a GB of keys where they will not offer the extra keys that people need. But I think that the people who do want them, pays the premium to get those keys, not split between everyone regardless of what they want.

I think the main argument against your model of All keys in one kit is that 'It is not fair for people to pay more for keys that they don't need and are essentially paying extra for some other people to get it cheaper'. I mean you can argue YOU may want extra keys at some point, but not everyone. The majority is satisfied with just the base kit. At the point where there are more people who want both sets, it may be wise to put them in.

It does work out that if I have 1 set instead of 2 separate sets, it will be cheaper to get the 1 set. But only fair to use it if most people need both sets.

[KylJoy]

I understand.  But the "minority" seems to be the "ten-keyless only" folks.  At least, according to the numbers.  Numbers currently show:

Order counter:

Ragnarok- 55
Phantom- 13
104- 19
ISO- 5

Does this mean that 55-13-19-5 = 18 "Ten-keyless only" buyers?  There are probably some of those ISO, Phantom and 104 buyers that are the same individuals buying multiple sets which would raise the number of "Ten-keyless only" folks, I think.  It would be cool to see the numbers so that we know what's up.  Since I'm still relatively new this may all be water under the bridge for some of you.  We need a Group Buy Economics Wiki put together once we understand the current makeup of this community and see how the numbers work out.  Hmmm...  I'll contact Ragnarok and see if he wuld mind sending me the numbers and I'll see how it comes out and post it here and try to start a WIKI.

[fstop]

Also the problem with the logic of 37/55 is that those 37 are spread across 3 seperate kits. If all three kits were included in the base price there is no way we would be able to keep it that low. And those within the addon groups wouldn't even need all the kits! So it wouldn't really make sense for anyone...

Its like buying a customized computer. You don't include expensive parts that not everyone needs. Maybe it would be cheaper to manufacturer one single, premade unit but then the cost would be slightly higher and then less appealing for a lot of people. Start simple, and build from there would be easier.

[tsangan]

I understand.  But the "minority" seems to be the "ten-keyless only" folks.  At least, according to the numbers.  Numbers currently show:

Order counter:

Ragnarok- 55
Phantom- 13
104- 19
ISO- 5

Does this mean that 55-13-19-5 = 18 "Ten-keyless only" buyers?  There are probably some of those ISO, Phantom and 104 buyers that are the same individuals buying multiple sets which would raise the number of "Ten-keyless only" folks, I think.  It would be cool to see the numbers so that we know what's up.  Since I'm still relatively new this may all be water under the bridge for some of you.  We need a Group Buy Economics Wiki put together once we understand the current makeup of this community and see how the numbers work out.  Hmmm...  I'll contact Ragnarok and see if he wuld mind sending me the numbers and I'll see how it comes out and post it here and try to start a WIKI.

Big sets only work if you get lots of orders, this is not lots of orders.

You are also assuming far too much, if only tenkeyless is available there will just be the same amount of orders almost, minus maybe the ISO people, a lot of the people thats getting the 11 key add on set own MANY keyboards and will still buy it if it didn't fit the Phantom or any of those keyboards that 11 key will make it fit. Same goes with 104 keys add on.

Yes you might think its good to get extra keys you don't use but that is not the same for everyone, forcing someone to buy an extra 30ish keys they won't be using could/will make some people not want to get the set and have a counter effect.

It's fine the way it is as GH is a very diverse place unlike kbdmania and OTD where they make like 2-4 sets a year and they do a universal set and have like 170+ keys but they get A LOT of orders compared to us.

People don't mind paying a bit more for what they want instead of paying a bit more for what they don't want

[hazeluff]

I understand.  But the "minority" seems to be the "ten-keyless only" folks.  At least, according to the numbers.  Numbers currently show:

Order counter:

Ragnarok- 55
Phantom- 13
104- 19
ISO- 5

Does this mean that 55-13-19-5 = 18 "Ten-keyless only" buyers?  There are probably some of those ISO, Phantom and 104 buyers that are the same individuals buying multiple sets which would raise the number of "Ten-keyless only" folks, I think.  It would be cool to see the numbers so that we know what's up.  Since I'm still relatively new this may all be water under the bridge for some of you.  We need a Group Buy Economics Wiki put together once we understand the current makeup of this community and see how the numbers work out.  Hmmm...  I'll contact Ragnarok and see if he wuld mind sending me the numbers and I'll see how it comes out and post it here and try to start a WIKI.

Yeah the problem with your argument is that those "minorities" are still split in what they want. If you made an "fit-all" kit. There would be keys that one grp wanted but not another. For example, ISO people who don't' want the Phantom keys and Phantom people who don't' want a 10key.

Tsangan sums up this whole thing up quite nicely:

People don't mind paying a bit more for what they want instead of paying a bit more for what they don't want

In the end it's about the situation. I'm running my GB for QWER kit with a addon of some LoL specific keys. Turns out that 95% people get both sets, making one big kit worth it. I'm actually buying up the extra sets myself, but in my case I could very easily not offered the option of getting the kits separate. The main reason I didn't was that I started the GB with the option and figured half way that it was cheaper to get them together. I wasn't going to go back on my words and change how things worked.

[mbc]

ppl seem to forget the meaning of community

[KylJoy]

ppl seem to forget the meaning of community

Could you elaborate, please?  Not sure what you are referring to.

[7bit]

I'm not sure where to post this and it is GB related so I dropped it here.
[...]

If 50 people each bought a Ragnarok, a Phantom kit and a 104 kit it would cost them $79.00 each.

If 75 people each bought a Ragnarok, a Phantom kit and a 104 kit it would cost them $67.00 each.
[...]
So, why not just have one big set with no options?  Those of you with more experience please school me.

One fit all rules the world!!!

But, I doubt everyone wants a fat TERMINAL kit with 300+ keys in it ...

I wish Ragnarok more luck with it than I had.

[snowboarder3]

I am a TKL only user. I have no use for 104 keysets. Unless the 104 add on only cost like 5 extra dollars at the most, I don't care to order it one bit. I'm just one person but I'd bet there are quite a few out there that feel the same. Keycaps are expensive, so maximizing my purchasing power is high on the list for me. 87 GBs accomplish just that.

[tsangan]

People don't mind paying a bit more for what they want instead of paying a bit more for what they don't want

QFE

Case closed

[hazeluff]

ppl seem to forget the meaning of community

We haven't. That's why they are extra addons.

It is one thing to get those extra kits for them, but its a different story when I start paying for someone else's 'cheaper addon keys' with my money. My extra money isn't the determining factor of whether or not their kit can be made, but rather how cheap they get it. That, in my opinion, is unfair.

A communities where we help each other out, but I don't think we are the kinda that should be sharing our money. I don't mind drawing images for others to use. I don't mind giving tips to people. But it's different when you want me to pay with money to another user. Money brings out the worse in us, its sad but true.

[KylJoy]

QFE

Case closed

Well, I'm sure not arguing against that statement.  And I am not making a case against it so I'm not sure what case is closed.    I'm saying something else - more like, "People ARE willing to pay LESS for something they don't want to avoid paying MORE for only what they DO WANT" or even, "People are willing to pay a tiny bit MORE for something they do NOT want to avoid paying even MORE than that for ONLY what they want."   LOL...

Does this apply here?  Maybe not.

Here's an example of Mickey D economics that I HATE...  But it's how it works:

I go to the drive through window at McDonald's 'cause I'm late to a meeting and need to eat (while I'm driving so LOOKOUT FOR ME).  LOL  Anyway, when I go to order I see that I could pay $4.99 for a sandwich + $0.99 for fries OR $5.49 for a sandwich, fries and soda (I made these numbers up for this example).  I don't want a &%$#ing soda, but I want fries.  I really want a nice glass of fresh, clean water with my meal.  But if I do not get the soda I have to PAY MORE!!!  It drives me CRAZY...  So, I buy the meal-deal and get a water on the side instead of paying more for less.  If I don't drink the soda, so what?  I saved money by buying the meal as a unit.  Whether you know it or not you folks do this sort of thing all the time and it saves you $$$.  In the McD example the people buying LESS pay MORE due to the economic realities.  McD knows that there is more money to be made from selling the entire set of food than there is from selling a smaller set of items.  This should also apply to lower costs overall (instead of profit in the McD example) in the GH group buys.  This model is inverted in the GH GBs.  Is that OK?  I guess so.  But it means that people that are buying MORE are paying for the discounts of the people paying LESS - (I.E. the number of base kits would not be as high and the kit may not even get made or it would cost $70.00 each, etc.).  Of course, the base price gets lower for EVERYONE when this happens.  Fair?  I dunno.  Probably.

I hope to do some quick math later to see how it all pans out.  Yes, there will be assumptions in there unless I do some sort of poll thingy.

[mkawa]

if you think you know how to run the greatest group buy ever, then by all means do it. in the meantime i'm going with the folks who are willing to do the work and who have a proven track record.

[fstop]

Practical example that applies to GH: PBT keycaps offered in 87 or 104 kits offered by various vendors here. Take for example Qtan, who is probably the main source of PBTs for most on this site, offers black engraved kit 87 for $41.99. The 104 kit version goes for $45. That's a $3.01 difference between the two kits, the only difference being the 17 extra keys that some people don't need. $3 isn't much at all. For 17 keys, 3 seems like a great deal. But paying extra for something you have absolutely no use for?... Well, not much of a reason to buy it then. It doesn't really make sense for Qtan to offer two seperate kits, at a $3 difference, but they both still serve their purpose and obviously sell well or else the options wouldn't be offered.

In a group buy, it would be a lot more then a $3 difference simply because of the way that SP pricing works. But what's worse is you might deter people away because so many extra addons that don't apply to them are raising the cost, even if only slightly, making the base price higher for everyone.

With the way the currennt Ragnarok GB is working, you can ensure a lower base price kit which will help EVERYONE.

[KylJoy]

if you think you know how to run the greatest group buy ever, then by all means do it. in the meantime i'm going with the folks who are willing to do the work and who have a proven track record.

Woah...  Where did that come from?  I am buying things in GBs on GH, too.  And I think they are run really well.  I only intended to start a discussion on this so I could understand the drivers behind cost structures and perhaps eventually learn that one method over another would lead to lower costs for more product and simpler GBs.  As Hazeluff mentioned earlier "In the end it's about the situation. I'm running my GB for QWER kit with a addon of some LoL specific keys. Turns out that 95% people get both sets, making one big kit worth it."  That's all I am trying to figure out - Can getting more mean a lower cost for everyone in more cases?

I apologize to anyone who has taken this thread in any other way.  Please accept my apologies.

[KylJoy]

Practical example that applies to GH:
[...]
With the way the currennt Ragnarok GB is working, you can ensure a lower base price kit which will help EVERYONE.

Thank you for the description.  I appreciate it.

[lightsout714]

I only want the 87 pc. personally. So I would like it at the lowest price possible.

[metafour]

Here's an example of Mickey D economics that I HATE...  But it's how it works:

I go to the drive through window at McDonald's...

I found the problem! You need to go to In-n-Out instead.

[HWI]

I am a TKL only user. I have no use for 104 keysets. Unless the 104 add on only cost like 5 extra dollars at the most, I don't care to order it one bit. I'm just one person but I'd bet there are quite a few out there that feel the same. Keycaps are expensive, so maximizing my purchasing power is high on the list for me. 87 GBs accomplish just that.

I agree.

[RiGS]

You guys are pretty selfish.

Either way we look at it.

[tsangan]

You guys are pretty selfish.

Or is it the other way around?

[mickd]

Or is it the other way around?

mind = blown.

Personally I don't mind paying a small premium for a few extra keys that I won't use if it means an overall cheaper price.

[hazeluff]

"Turns out that 95% people get both sets, making one big kit worth it."  That's all I am trying to figure out - Can getting more mean a lower cost for everyone in more cases?

There is a point where getting a big kit is cheaper is worth it. It depends on where you want to put that point at. It all comes down to:

-How many people benefit from getting both kits cheaper
-How many people are forced to pay more to buy bits they don't want
-How much cheaper is the bigger kit (or How much saved)

Maybe the point where it's

Amount saved (by people who want both kits) = Amount extra paid (by people who don't want the extra kits).

is where you want to draw the line. It's up to who runs it. I think alienating groups by simply not offering will be silly, since that hurts the GB as a whole. I think we can agree on that. But this "When is it worth it to get one big kit over multiple kits" is debatable.

Then we can consider a case where we think of the people who won't get the kit because the addon is expensive vs those who wan't get the big kit because they don't need the extras. I think this case is very rare, maybe one or two people, but not enough to be damaging to the GB.

Personally I don't mind paying a small premium for a few extra keys that I won't use if it means an overall cheaper price.

I can't a way that this can be true unless the bigger kit draws in 25+ more people to bump you up a price reduction. You'd get this reduction even if we attracted these people by offering the small kit + addon. A bigger kit can only increase price unless it brings you up a price discount.

[lightsout714]

Or is it the other way around?

This. I myself want the kit that suits me.  This is expensive hobby as is. I'm all about community but don't feel it's my duty to buy useless things so others can get a discount.

[snowboarder3]

To me, it seems like OP stumbled into the 87 ragnarok GB and thought, "gee, these are some sweet keycaps. Too bad I need the 104 set(judging by his sig)." Upon looking at the numbers, he probably noticed that the 104 add on was a good amount more expensive compared to if everyone just ordered a 104 kit instead of an 87, prompting this thread. I think it's an interesting point to bring up, since theoretically the 87 + 104 kit could be ridiculously more expensive than just doing all 104s, and in that case it may actually be warranted if the price increase to go from base 87 to 104 is minimal.

I don't think that is the case though. 104 add on people may need to pay a bit more compared to all doing 104, but any extra money that you are paying for it is just going to be footed by the 87 people who are forced to spend more on something they don't need. What it seems to come down to, IMO, is whether or not you want a 104 kit or an 87. If you want a 104, of course you want a better deal and want as many sets as possible ordered or even just a 104base kit. If you are a TKL person, you don't want the extra keys and the cost that comes along with it. The 87ers might benefit from the extra 104 orders since they add more 87 bases to the list, but the only other viable options are to have 104 be the base kit or just do no 104.

Is this selfish? No. Just everyone wanting the best deal for themselves IMO. That being said, if the price increase from 87 to 104 is too high, nobody is forcing you to buy it. There are 104 key GB's and I've never noticed TKL people complaining about the extra keys. Last I checked, the red/black and cream cheese were both originally designed to JUST be an 87 key GB with no addons whatsoever, rag and tsangan decided to add the kits to let more people get in on it.

One last thing, that McDonalds analogy was rather poor IMO. If you went through the window and you could get a big mac and fries for 6.00 but the meal for 7.00 (even if you don't want the soda), would you still get the meal? That is how I feel about the 104 add on. I don't want to pay a dollar extra for a drink that I'm just going to waste, it's not in my best interest.

If it's selfish to want an 87 keyset in an 87 group buy that also happens to have the option of add on kits, then you're god damn right I'm selfish. IMO it's much more selfish to have EVERYONE foot the bill so a minority can enjoy a better deal.

edit: i r no good speling

[KylJoy]

To me, it seems like OP stumbled into the 87 ragnarok GB and thought, "gee, these are some sweet keycaps. Too bad I need the 104 set(judging by his sig)." Upon looking at the numbers, he probably noticed that the 104 add on was a good amount more expensive compared to if everyone just ordered a 104 kit instead of an 87, prompting this thread...

I'm involved in many GBs and those Cream Cheese and Green look SWEET!!!  And FWIW, my first TKL is on it's way but I do prefer to purchase larger keycap sets that'll cover me if I want to use the sets on full-sized keyboards.  But that's me, not necessarily everyone else.

I'm not opposed to paying for what I want and I'm doing so in every GB and other transaction that I'm involved in.  I've got the money that I work hard for (in my opinion) and that's what it's for - buying what I want/need.  And I don't want anyone subsidizing my purchases.  I'm a capitalist.  

What prompted this thread is my curiosity concerning the viability of some of the GBs if the add-ons were not offered since the numbers might not be there to support the manufacturing of the key sets, etc.  I see many posts for base sets + add-ons.  I do not know what the ratios are.  I am curious.  That's all.  It MAY be true that without the add-ons the sets could never go to production since there wouldn't be enough buy-in or that the base sets would cost an exorbitant amount.  Would people still buy them?  Probably, I have no idea - that's why I'm looking at this.  And, if it were to turn out that everyone would save more $$$ if the base set were larger I think that it would be a win for everyone - not just 104 keyers.  I don't yet have the numbers to do the math.  It will most likely turn out that people buying the add-ons are in the minority.  So be it.  I am not on either side of an argument and I don't think anyone is being selfish, just frugal.  You work hard for your money, too!!

I'm not referring directly to Snowboarder3 when I say this, but boy oh boy this seems a touchy subject for some reason.  Perhaps there is a past concerning pricing or costs at GH that I am unaware of.

[mickd]

I can't a way that this can be true unless the bigger kit draws in 25+ more people to bump you up a price reduction. You'd get this reduction even if we attracted these people by offering the small kit + addon. A bigger kit can only increase price unless it brings you up a price discount.

I'm not sure how SP's price structure's work, but this could also be the case if it is cheaper to buy (for example) 50 104key kits over 50 TKL + 50 104key add-on kits.

TBH I'm a lot less concerned about this stuff over the discounts received because of SP's poor pricing brackets where (taking the current Meme keycaps group buy in consideration) if everyone doubled their longcat order, they'd literally pay just about the same thing for double the amount of keycaps because of the quantity discounts. This is a different issue though.

[Gawkbasher]

One of these days a shrewd group buy runner is going to notice that it's most cost effective to just order all 104-sets, discount the cost difference to 87-key buyers (and pay the small amount themselves, if they even need to (see above examples)) and keep the other keys.

Then turn around and sell them at a markup.

[tsangan]

One of these days a shrewd group buy runner is going to notice that it's most cost effective to just order all 104-sets, discount the cost difference to 87-key buyers (and pay the small amount themselves, if they even need to (see above examples)) and keep the other keys.

Then turn around and sell them at a markup.

Mark up of what? $10?

Assuming the tenkeypad is $5 extra on top of the 87keyset what are you going to sell them at? lol

What a waste of time

[alaricljs]

People get touchy about 'how GBs are run' because they want to make sure that they KEEP RUNNING.  Many are of the opinion that you don't F with a system that works and well... there's a few guys that have really figured out how it works which is why more GBs are running to completion in a timely manner.  (Thank you very much, guys)

[lightsout714]

But is there a demand for a bunch of ten key only sets. Maybe a few.

[alaricljs]

One of these days a shrewd group buy runner is going to notice that it's most cost effective to just order all 104-sets, discount the cost difference to 87-key buyers (and pay the small amount themselves, if they even need to (see above examples)) and keep the other keys.

Then turn around and sell them at a markup.

You should read Rag's post about doing something similar and take into account what market there is for an add-on kit to a kit that was only produced once and had that add-on kit available at production time.  Which is to say if someone wanted it they bought it already, so who are you gonna sell your extra add-ons to?

[snowboarder3]

I'm not referring directly to Snowboarder3 when I say this, but boy oh boy this seems a touchy subject for some reason.  Perhaps there is a past concerning pricing or costs at GH that I am unaware of.

Agreed about the touchy subject thing. Thanks for the well thought out response! I just like debate

[hazeluff]

I'm not sure how SP's price structure's work, but this could also be the case if it is cheaper to buy (for example) 50 104key kits over 50 TKL + 50 104key add-on kits.

Yes this is how it would be.

But this is a different issue to the breaks from one level to another.

As for the comment by someone else about taking the hit and buying the 104 over the 87 and selling the 10keys. You'll find that this doesn't work as not many people want to buy just a 10key. The demand will be on the more wanted part (87 key) and the less on the 10key, which is why we split them up in the first place. If 10 keys were wanted. There would be no problem just selling 104 kits.

Money and how GB's run is somewhat touchy. But this is why we try to run them as transparent as possible.

[emptyk]

As long as I don't get secretly charged MORE for a GB kit than what I expected to pay . . . who cares.

To anyone who has run, is running, or will run a group buy (whether or not I participate):  thank you very much.

[KylJoy]

Before proceeding, let it be known that I reserve the God-given right to be completely wrong about everything you read below.  

I am using raw numbers from the Ragnarok Red/Black GB.  I have no one's information, just raw numbers.  Some interesting numbers are showing up.  These might be a bit stale by the time I post this.

There are currently 57 buyers total.

There are exactly 33 base kits in the Ragnarok Red/Black GB being bought by people with NO ADD-ON KITS
There are exactly 33 base kits in the Ragnarok Red/Black GB being bought by people that are also buying SOME ADD-ON KITS

There are 30 buyers of 87 key kits only, more than one in 3 cases, but no add-on kits.
There are 27 buyers buying at least one 87 key kit and one or more add-on kits.

It looks like a 3 people are buying the Ragnarok set for both 87 and 104, ISO or Phantom key layouts since 3 are buying multiple base sets and one or more of the add-on kits in a way that I can "ASSUME" that I know what they are doing.  If someone is buying 2 base kits and 2 ISO kits I'm assuming they are not using a base kit on an 87 key.  If they are buying 3 base sets and 2 104 kits I assume they are using 1 kit on an 87 and the other 2 on 104s.  Could I be wrong?  You bet.  There is no way to tell their intentions from the raw numbers.  But I'm gonna see where this leads.

Here's some ideas, thoughts, ramblings:

• If I remove all of the orders for folks that appear to be ordering for keyboards larger than 87 key and make sure to include 104 key buyers that look like they also are ordering for an 87 key the number of total base kit buyers is 33 and the total number of base kits they'd be ordering is 36.  This would mean that the cost of the 87 key base set would be at $70.00 but it would have made it past the minimum requirement of 25 sets.  So, it would be made but it would be costing $18.00 more than the current price of $52.00 per set.
• According to the price list, if all 66 of us were to buy all of the kits it would cost each person $79.00 (price for ISO still unknown though, probably not zero).  This is higher than the $70.00 you would be paying if the add-on kits were not available and everyone wanting a 104/ISO/Phantom kit didn't order 'cause they couldn't get the keys they wanted/needed.  Is that realistic?  I think not.  But I'm trying to see the extreme ends of the spectrum.
• According to the price list, if we get to 75 people and each person were to buy all of the kits it would cost each person $67.00 (price for ISO unknown) which is now below the $70.00 that would be paid for only the base set IF it were true that none of the folks buying base kits AND add-ons were to buy anything since they couldn't get what they want/need for their KBs.  Again, looking at extremes.
• There may be a greater savings which would drop the cost considerably further per person if SP knew that they'd be selling that many more keys per order.  True?  I dunno.  I haven't talked to them about it.  Some here seem to believe that there would be little to gain.  Perhaps they are right.  They've been here doing this for a while and probably know how it works.  It might be cool if Ragnarok would ask SP what the cost per set would be if there were 75 sets of all of it ordered.  Then we'd know.  Maybe it would be $50 per set?  Maybe $45?  Then all of those extra keys are free (at the 75 sets number) compared to the current price structure. Hell, for all I know she'd double the cost to $90.  :)

I'd sure like to get all of those pretty keys for $45.00 or $50.00 instead of $67.00 (at 75 sets).  Possible?  Maybe?  Probably not?  Hopefully someone will ask.  I'll PM Ragnarok and see if he is comfortable asking tomorrow.

Peace

[Lpb45]

Honestly if $17 USD is that big of a deal to you,  I would suggest a cheaper hobby.  I saw a couple people bring up R4 which I am guessing is having pricing problems because it has ALOT of stuff in it meaning there isnt alot of any one thing being bought which is exactly how R3 went (which a bunch of us complained about, but in the end its 7bits buy and he can do what he wants).  At this point I would just be happy we have this many group buys,  A couple years ago it was near impossible to find a filco, leopold or 87U and we had no CM's or black widows.

[lightsout714]

Honestly if $17 USD is that big of a deal to you,  I would suggest a cheaper hobby.  I saw a couple people bring up R4 which I am guessing is having pricing problems because it has ALOT of stuff in it meaning there isnt alot of any one thing being bought which is exactly how R3 went (which a bunch of us complained about, but in the end its 7bits buy and he can do what he wants).  At this point I would just be happy we have this many group buys,  A couple years ago it was near impossible to find a filco, leopold or 87U and we had no CM's or black widows.

I am very happy with all these group buys. BUt we don't all have endless supplies of money to throw around. And I want to get in on as many of these as possible, so 17 here, 10 here, 5 here can make a difference.

[Lpb45]

Like I said, find a new cheaper hobby or be happy with what you have.  If that isn't good enough go make your own group buys for whatever you want,  this is an enthusiast forum not walmart.

[hashbaz]

Honestly if $17 USD is that big of a deal to you,  I would suggest a cheaper hobby..

Um yeah $17 is significant, and I'm not even a poor college student like many of us here.

Before proceeding, let it be known that I reserve the God-given right to be completely wrong about everything you read below.  

No need to pre-apologize.  Money is a touchy subject, but I'm glad you brought this up.  It's been a good discussion.

[fstop]

But what we're saying here is why should the majority of participants in a group buy have to pay $17 for what a minority (about 1/3 of the group) needs? The minority shouldn't be dictating the prices, especially if its a substantial difference. A marginal difference I'd understand. Extra $1-5 to make everyone happy and make everything easier for the GB. But $17 , in this example? There's no reason to make everyone suffer.

$17 is enough to participate in another GB if you buy single keys / etc cool stuff that goes on around here.

It's an expensive hobby I won't argue with that, but no need to make it even more unnecessarily expensive.

[mkawa]

i think what Lpb45 is saying is that you have to decide for yourself whether having 17$ is more or less important to you than having a delete key with pedobear on it :lol:

ps, i appreciate the discussion on how to most efficiently run a GB, but until i have the time to personally run one, i'm going to have to defer to what the people who are successfully running them want to do.