Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 10 May 2020, 11:56:29
2020-11-14: IC Update (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.msg2979868#msg2979868)
2020-11-16: GB thread (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=109588.0) is live!
GMK ThinkCaps (formerly GMK Think) is based on the classic ThinkPad (http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_History) and IBM/Lenovo Preferred Pro keyboards.
Notable features:
- Custom Big Blue enter key
- TKL base set with ISO support
- Standalone Ortho & 40's set (Poll (https://forms.gle/3m31h6g1t6ykKEQD8))
- A more complete Numpad kit
- Minila, split/ortho support with 3u spacebar!
- Parallel group buy of RGBW add-on kit (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=107516.0)
- Multimedia keys
- Accent-only kit (for WoB)
(https://i.imgur.com/Sd3CeJj.jpg)
Contents
- Kits (#post_kits)
- Renders (#post_renders)
- Specs & colours (#post_specs)
- Vendors & prices (#post_vendors)
- Form (#post_form)
Kits
Tenkeyless
(https://i.imgur.com/QX4YlpC.jpg)
- Covers TKL, 75%, 65% and 60% keyboards
- Tsangan/WKL, HHKB, 1.75u Shift, and nav column
- ISO-US support
(https://i.imgur.com/xFOnOyB.jpg)
- Standalone orthogonal and 40% set
- 40's modifiers (including MiniVan), R3 Tab/Ctrl/Enter, all minibars (with extra 2u)
- Icon mods for 40's and text for ortho
(https://i.imgur.com/axvZbuA.jpg)
- Complete numpad kit (rare for GMK sets!)
(https://i.imgur.com/z5ESPYh.jpg)
- Support for exotic 60% boards such as the Minila, Yoda (without TrackPoint), Alice, split spacebar, etc.
- Additional "G H B" keys for TEX boards (for DIY mods), R3 Home and Code
- Extra black minibars, including 3u
(https://i.imgur.com/50CzdS1.jpg)
- Icon modifiers (compatible with GMK Dolch and other N9 GMK sets)
- Windows keys and 1.5u Meta (◇) keys
(https://i.imgur.com/XzVNbxo.jpg)
- RGB modifiers (compatible with many other GMK sets)
- Fits many layouts, including ortho and 40%; icon and icon+text
(https://i.imgur.com/rbvPexH.jpg)
- Features Dots (a @Biip (https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=69731) design) ~TrackPoint style~
- Media keys for your full-size board, 96-key or macro
(https://i.imgur.com/IG1wYej.jpg)
- Spacebars for Cherry G80-1800, HHKB and small keyboards
- Perfect for adding colour to your set
(https://i.imgur.com/oqNNZgw.jpg)
- Accents only for WoB, Hiragana, Dolch or other Cherry profile keysets (WS1 legends)
(https://i.imgur.com/0Iuw5ch.jpg)
- For British, Danish, Finnish, German, Norwegian and Swedish layouts
Renders
Filco Majestouch with TEX case
(https://i.imgur.com/kcsrd9F.jpg)
Filco Minila Air
(https://i.imgur.com/ereB0pL.jpg)
TKC1800
(https://i.imgur.com/Bfz7Sph.jpg)
HHKB, Ducky Pocket and Prime_E
(https://i.imgur.com/m9XBVYD.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/7doGpqM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eJCMXDz.jpg)
TEX Yoda II (with drilled G-H-B keys)
(https://i.imgur.com/Sd3CeJj.jpg)
OLKB Preonic
(https://i.imgur.com/qTB47SX.jpg)
OLKB Planck and OTD Koala
(https://i.imgur.com/BPdk10o.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/KsAsOBT.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yKloD46.jpg)
Specs
- Doubleshot ABS
- Cherry profile (112344)
- Manufactured by GMK electronic design GmbH in Germany
- Alphas: CR, CP legends
- Modifiers: N9, blue (custom), CP legends
- RGB modifiers: P3, N7, V4, CP legends
- Accent kit only: blue (custom), WS1 legends
Samples
(https://i.imgur.com/epzrLU9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dHHWdJO.jpg)
Vendors & prices
- US: Dixie Mech
- EU: CandyKeys
- Canada: yakk.shop
- Oceania: Daily Clack
- Asia: IlumKB
- China: zFrontier
Form
Interested in this group buy? Please fill out the following form:
- GMK ThinkCaps: https://forms.gle/3m31h6g1t6ykKEQD8
Links
- YAKK Discord server: https://discord.gg/zVgCQyK
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/voodoo6k/
Please leave your comments down below! You can support this project by adding the following BB code to your signature:
Code: [Select]
[url=https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.0][img width=300 height=120]https://i.imgur.com/hZpmVKN.png[/img][/url]
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 10 May 2020, 11:57:09
Post by: mydens on Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:01:30
Post by: falzm on Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:02:37
Post by: nu_types on Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:04:01
Tex had them made for the Yoda, which means the moulds should exist. This would be the perfect GMK set for Yoda and Shinobi owners
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:04:56
dark and depressing.
I was hoping for a more optimistic first comment... :))
Post by: _rubik on Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:08:04
Post by: ddnomad on Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:12:05
Post by: syberghost on Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:31:55
dark and depressing.
But in a good way.
Post by: Croktopus on Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:36:28
Post by: diddykang on Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:38:30
Post by: Zeelobby on Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:39:26
ahh im excitedYeah. Great work crokto. And awesome handoff. Excited to see this come about.
Post by: BapoDonu on Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:47:17
Post by: kokugatsu on Sun, 10 May 2020, 12:48:17
(https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_3272_large_texy2gmkcaps_6.jpg)
I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
Post by: pikku-allu on Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:18:21
Post by: konstantin on Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:25:43
The R1 End and PgDn keys can be moved from the base kit to the numpad kit, since they are always used only on layouts that have numpads (1800, CP, 96-key).
Optionally, you could also move R1 1u Backspace, the second R4 1u Ctrl and the second R4 1u Alt to the ortho & 40s kit. The reason being that you almost never see 1u Backspace on ≥60% nowadays (you can add a copy to the Minila kit, since that keyboard uses it); no modern ≥60% layout uses 2× 1u Ctrl; and the second 1u Alt isn't needed for ≥60% because there are no 1.5u Code keys in the base kit. Alternatively, you can keep the second 1u Alt and add a 1.5u Code, which together with the 1.5u Fn can be used to cover Mac and OG-style HHKB bottom rows.
Post by: sourmk on Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:32:29
Post by: wholypantalones on Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:32:56
Also, why no arrow on the numpad and accent enter keys?
Post by: Damonskv on Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:34:35
Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex YodaGot the same idea, so +1Show Image(https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_3272_large_texy2gmkcaps_6.jpg)
I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:35:09
Nice set, but those renders man! Best ones I've seen so far, you made them yourself?
Thank you! Yes, I made these renders. :)
Post by: ab042896 on Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:37:33
Post by: scoopbb on Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:39:05
Post by: NathanAlphaMan on Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:43:18
Nice set, but those renders man! Best ones I've seen so far, you made them yourself?
Ditto, I thought they were pictures at first. Stunning work!
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:44:19
Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.
Just to be clear, as a general response, the black is the same as WoB (CR), and dark grey is the same as the GMK Dolch modifiers (N9), very common colours to maximize compatibility.
This is basically like inverted (Sky) MoDo (https://i.redd.it/x3sa8qm3i2g41.jpg) with white legends.
Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex YodaGot the same idea, so +1Show Image(https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_3272_large_texy2gmkcaps_6.jpg)
I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
No promises, but we can look into this...
Post by: mta on Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:46:31
Post by: VXQN on Sun, 10 May 2020, 13:52:17
Post by: Pylon on Sun, 10 May 2020, 14:05:45
Also, why no arrow on the numpad and accent enter keys?
I don't think IBM or Lenovo ever put an arrow on their numpad enter keys.
(https://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/ProductImage/23-662-008-02.jpg)
Come to think of it, neither did Cherry - every OG Cherry double-shot set I've seen (even ones that have icon-only mods) has text-only on numpad enter.
Post by: Rayndalf on Sun, 10 May 2020, 14:07:19
Post by: scoopbb on Sun, 10 May 2020, 14:15:10
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 10 May 2020, 14:18:37
in the 40s kit the render shows R2 for the 1.75u enters and tab. should say R3
Fixed.
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 10 May 2020, 14:19:47
Come to think of it, neither did Cherry - every OG Cherry double-shot set I've seen (even ones that have icon-only mods) has text-only on numpad enter.
Correct, and almost every other mass production keyboard.
Post by: hkiri on Sun, 10 May 2020, 14:40:19
WoB uses Icon + Text Mods and so does the included ISO Enters.
Post by: Fredington on Sun, 10 May 2020, 14:49:38
Post by: ideus on Sun, 10 May 2020, 15:08:05
Post by: oldcat on Sun, 10 May 2020, 15:41:48
Post by: vheissu on Sun, 10 May 2020, 17:18:54
dark and depressing.Just how I like it.
Definitely an instant buy, great work!
Post by: RETURNISO on Sun, 10 May 2020, 17:50:45
+1 OG icon mods
Post by: IMZO on Sun, 10 May 2020, 18:09:40
Post by: 1391401 on Sun, 10 May 2020, 21:26:47
Post by: Biased opinion on Sun, 10 May 2020, 22:57:01
Post by: catamscott on Sun, 10 May 2020, 23:29:46
Post by: jjexpat00 on Mon, 11 May 2020, 00:32:02
Post by: m1gs on Mon, 11 May 2020, 02:31:05
Post by: Badmutha on Mon, 11 May 2020, 04:21:20
Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Mon, 11 May 2020, 05:35:55
I think the minila keys would pull even more orders :thumb:
can we add vertical 2u Delete key (same as numpad + key) to Novelties kit? or if Delete legend is not possible, can we use the corresponding key from GMK Dot?
[attachimg=1]
I know there are not many boards that support this key but please consider ;D
Post by: Rohwi on Mon, 11 May 2020, 06:44:21
Since ThinkCaps (right now) is not compatible with any other more advanced ISO sets (NORDE etc.) it would be cool to see a set that would go with existing GMK international alphas (e.g. from GMK WoB)
The Icon Mod Set + Accents is pretty close, but it's missing enough 1.25u for Ctrl, Alt or ISO Shift
Would you consider adding a full modifier set to go with existing alphas?
Post by: depletedvespene on Mon, 11 May 2020, 09:19:44
can we add vertical 2u Delete key (same as numpad + key) to Novelties kit? or if Delete legend is not possible, can we use the corresponding key from GMK Dot?
I gotta say that seeing the rebirth of the Wang-style Delete key in a Thinkpad-inspired set is hilarious (not that I'm complaining).
Post by: depletedvespene on Mon, 11 May 2020, 09:23:26
BTW: icon mods: OG or centered? Some people will care to know... a lot. :p
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 11 May 2020, 10:58:59
Given the strong historical support from Thinkpad keyboards for ANSI, ISO and ANSISO physical layout variants in their keyboard lines, the "ISO" keys ought to be present in the base kit, I think (vertical "ISO" Enter, 1.25U left Shift, R3 \| and R4 <>). Sticking the (UK-only) ISO support to a separate kit doesn't come off as a good idea, IMHO.
I have to be honest and say that ISO is not quite yet figured out. It's separate from the base kit for two reasons:
- Base is icon+text and ISO is icon only (as is historically)
- ISO sales are usually disproportionately low; why force everyone to buy it?
I know CandyKeys wants a NorDe kit, so it (ISO) may very well end up in the international kit.
BTW: icon mods: OG or centered? Some people will care to know... a lot. :p
What's better?
Thanks for including a separate Accents kit. Any chance for getting an ISO Enter with Icon + Text?
WoB uses Icon + Text Mods and so does the included ISO Enters.
It's more convenient to offer only one type of ISO Enter, because they come in pairs (blue and grey). Again, we're not really decided on ISO yet. I was hoping nobody would ask for the icon+text ISO Enter ;D
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 11 May 2020, 11:07:12
Could we get a set that makes this compatible with other GMK alphas?
Since ThinkCaps (right now) is not compatible with any other more advanced ISO sets (NORDE etc.) it would be cool to see a set that would go with existing GMK international alphas (e.g. from GMK WoB)
The Icon Mod Set + Accents is pretty close, but it's missing enough 1.25u for Ctrl, Alt or ISO Shift
Would you consider adding a full modifier set to go with existing alphas?
Are you talking about the Icon mods kit? It is compatible with other N9 sets (eg. Dolch). Adding the complete modifiers (Control, Alt, etc.) would be quite redundant for everyone getting the base set.
Sorry, I'm not sure I completely understood your question... can you please specify what you meant?
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 11 May 2020, 11:11:56
can we add vertical 2u Delete key (same as numpad + key) to Novelties kit? or if Delete legend is not possible, can we use the corresponding key from GMK Dot?
[...]
I know there are not many boards that support this key but please consider ;D
Is there any?
Post by: dallman5 on Mon, 11 May 2020, 11:23:55
BTW: icon mods: OG or centered? Some people will care to know... a lot. :p
What's better?
Personally, I think the OG icon mods look better.
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 11 May 2020, 11:31:17
Nice kit and even more nice of you providing a low cost accent only kit for existing blacks in use. Very few GB's leaders are so considered. Unfortunately.
Thank you.
It was actually @Croktopus who put some mild pressure on me to included it. I felt the same way after re-reading the Think IC.
I don't think it will hurt the GB to include them. After all, it's called a "group buy" (and not a pre-order) for a reason. If that's what people want, then so be it.
Post by: Rohwi on Mon, 11 May 2020, 11:36:03
Could we get a set that makes this compatible with other GMK alphas?
Since ThinkCaps (right now) is not compatible with any other more advanced ISO sets (NORDE etc.) it would be cool to see a set that would go with existing GMK international alphas (e.g. from GMK WoB)
The Icon Mod Set + Accents is pretty close, but it's missing enough 1.25u for Ctrl, Alt or ISO Shift
Would you consider adding a full modifier set to go with existing alphas?
Are you talking about the Icon mods kit? It is compatible with other N9 sets (eg. Dolch). Adding the complete modifiers (Control, Alt, etc.) would be quite redundant for everyone getting the base set.
Sorry, I'm not sure I completely understood your question... can you please specify what you meant?
I was thinking about adding the missing keys as Icon Mods.
The base set right now only has a "Ctrl" key, but there is no Icon variant to replace the Ctrl key. The Icon Mod Set contains the classics, "icon only" Shift, Win key etc.
If you would add Icon varaints for all mods (ctrl, alt, etc.), like the in the Hiragana Micons set, it would make all existing GMK WoB out there compatible with ThinkCaps without the need to purchase the base set:
(https://mykeyboard.eu/media/cache/9e/96/9e96eafa97d8e36086fdac07781779d0.jpg)
Post by: DoItForTheThocks on Mon, 11 May 2020, 11:46:57
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 11 May 2020, 12:03:51
Thanks for including R3 PgUp, R4 PgDn. Please also include basic ISO support in the base kit (ISO Enter, R3 1u \|, R4 1u <>, R4 1.25u Shift).
The R1 End and PgDn keys can be moved from the base kit to the numpad kit, since they are always used only on layouts that have numpads (1800, CP, 96-key).
Optionally, you could also move R1 1u Backspace, the second R4 1u Ctrl and the second R4 1u Alt to the ortho & 40s kit. The reason being that you almost never see 1u Backspace on ≥60% nowadays (you can add a copy to the Minila kit, since that keyboard uses it); no modern ≥60% layout uses 2× 1u Ctrl; and the second 1u Alt isn't needed for ≥60% because there are no 1.5u Code keys in the base kit. Alternatively, you can keep the second 1u Alt and add a 1.5u Code, which together with the 1.5u Fn can be used to cover Mac and OG-style HHKB bottom rows.
RE: ISO; still undecided!
You are right about moving the End and PgDn to Numpad. I put them in Base to offset the cost of the Numpad kit, but logically they should be in there.
Since there is no Extension/Specialty kit for this one (and Ortho & 40's may become a standalone set), we cannot move too many keys out of Base. I aimed at a complete 60%+ set (2u Shift and so on), and because I was specifically asked for a split (1u) backspace in the MT3 SNES IC, I figured we should include it here as well.
You are also correct about the number of 1u Ctrl/Alt keys in Base. The issue is that I'm not really a fan of the "Code" keys, therefore I removed the two 1.5u Codes from Base in favour of the 1.5u Meta (◇) in Icon mods.
That being said, the main reason for leaving the extra 1u Ctrl and Alt keys in Base is to again offset the cost of the Ortho & 40's extension. If we go with a standalone Ortho & 40's set, then we could remove (at least) the extra 1u Ctrl.
Hopefully this reply if not too confusing. ;D
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 11 May 2020, 12:11:37
Could we get a set that makes this compatible with other GMK alphas?
Since ThinkCaps (right now) is not compatible with any other more advanced ISO sets (NORDE etc.) it would be cool to see a set that would go with existing GMK international alphas (e.g. from GMK WoB)
The Icon Mod Set + Accents is pretty close, but it's missing enough 1.25u for Ctrl, Alt or ISO Shift
Would you consider adding a full modifier set to go with existing alphas?
Are you talking about the Icon mods kit? It is compatible with other N9 sets (eg. Dolch). Adding the complete modifiers (Control, Alt, etc.) would be quite redundant for everyone getting the base set.
Sorry, I'm not sure I completely understood your question... can you please specify what you meant?
I was thinking about adding the missing keys as Icon Mods.
The base set right now only has a "Ctrl" key, but there is no Icon variant to replace the Ctrl key. The Icon Mod Set contains the classics, "icon only" Shift, Win key etc.
If you would add Icon varaints for all mods (ctrl, alt, etc.), like the in the Hiragana Micons set, it would make all existing GMK WoB out there compatible with ThinkCaps without the need to purchase the base set:Show Image(https://mykeyboard.eu/media/cache/9e/96/9e96eafa97d8e36086fdac07781779d0.jpg)
Okay, I see what you mean. Something more like this (from GMK Burgundy):
(https://i.imgur.com/WVMDtDS.png)
I will consider it if we remove ISO from the Icon mods, but I want to keep the price down.
Post by: konstantin on Mon, 11 May 2020, 12:15:38
I have to be honest and say that ISO is not quite yet figured out. It's separate from the base kit for two reasons:
- Base is icon+text and ISO is icon only (as is historically)
- ISO sales are usually disproportionately low; why force everyone to buy it?
I know CandyKeys wants a NorDe kit, so it (ISO) may very well end up in the international kit.
While I get the reasoning behind not including ISO Enter in base because it's icon-only (I think that's pretty smart), you also have to keep in mind that “forcing” 4 keys in the base kit has a much smaller relative impact on pricing than the current setup (in other words, the larger the kit, the smaller the price per key).
Whereas putting the 4 ISO keys in base would result in a $2 increase to the kit's price (number taken from actual GMK quotes where I did this for a similarly sized base kit), the current setup forces ISO users to also purchase $40–$50 worth of icon mods to get the keys that they need to be able to use their boards. In other words, you are effectively discouraging most ISO users from buying the set at all.
(Disclaimer: I'm not an ISO user, I just like to see kiting done in a sensible and considerate manner.)
Side note: The same logic could be applied to the R1 End, PgDn keys, which are only used by numpad users, and numpad kits also sell fairly poorly (see Dvorcol's numpad take rate stats for GMK sets). So they shouldn't be forced on everyone either, if you want to look at it that way.
Anyway, your idea of putting the 4 basic ISO keys in a NorDe kit is slightly better, but still isn't great for pretty much the same reasons as above. Namely, most ISO users are happy with basic support and don't want to spend a lot of money to buy an intl compatibility kit. This is why you always see these kits sell poorly. Rest assured that there are many more ISO users than sales of these kits would suggest.
BTW: icon mods: OG or centered? Some people will care to know... a lot.
What's better?
For what it's worth, I think IBM ThinkPads always used vertically centered icons for their icon-only keys, whereas some models under Lenovo went with the top-left (OG) approach.
Post by: konstantin on Mon, 11 May 2020, 12:23:16
RE: ISO; still undecided!
You are right about moving the End and PgDn to Numpad. I put them in Base to offset the cost of the Numpad kit, but logically they should be in there.
Since there is no Extension/Specialty kit for this one (and Ortho & 40's may become a standalone set), we cannot move too many keys out of Base. I aimed at a complete 60%+ set (2u Shift and so on), and because I was specifically asked for a split (1u) backspace in the MT3 SNES IC, I figured we should include it here as well.
You are also correct about the number of 1u Ctrl/Alt keys in Base. The issue is that I'm not really a fan of the "Code" keys, therefore I removed the two 1.5u Codes from Base in favour of the 1.5u Meta (◇) in Icon mods.
That being said, the main reason for leaving the extra 1u Ctrl and Alt keys in Base is to again offset the cost of the Ortho & 40's extension. If we go with a standalone Ortho & 40's set, then we could remove (at least) the extra 1u Ctrl.
Hopefully this reply if not too confusing. ;D
Sorry for the double post, I'm on mobile and I didn't see your reply before posting mine.
Your reply makes sense! So does offsetting the cost of the other kits. As long as you've taken everything into consideration, and decided to keep those keys in base anyway, I'm happy :) But please consider doing the same, i.e. offsetting the cost for ISO users as well.
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 11 May 2020, 12:27:09
I have to be honest and say that ISO is not quite yet figured out. It's separate from the base kit for two reasons:
- Base is icon+text and ISO is icon only (as is historically)
- ISO sales are usually disproportionately low; why force everyone to buy it?
I know CandyKeys wants a NorDe kit, so it (ISO) may very well end up in the international kit.
While I get the reasoning behind not including ISO Enter in base because it's icon-only (I think that's pretty smart), you also have to keep in mind that “forcing” 4 keys in the base kit has a much smaller relative impact on pricing than the current setup (in other words, the larger the kit, the smaller the price per key).
Whereas putting the 4 ISO keys in base would result in a $2 increase to the kit's price (number taken from actual GMK quotes where I did this for a similarly sized base kit), the current setup forces ISO users to also purchase $40–$50 worth of icon mods to get the keys that they need to be able to use their boards. In other words, you are effectively discouraging most ISO users from buying the set at all.
(Disclaimer: I'm not an ISO user, I just like to see kiting done in a sensible and considerate manner.)
Side note: The same logic could be applied to the R1 End, PgDn keys, which are only used by numpad users, and numpad kits also sell fairly poorly (see Dvorcol's numpad take rate stats for GMK sets). So they shouldn't be forced on everyone either, if you want to look at it that way.
Anyway, your idea of putting the 4 basic ISO keys in a NorDe kit is slightly better, but still isn't great for pretty much the same reasons as above. Namely, most ISO users are happy with basic support and don't want to spend a lot of money to buy an intl compatibility kit. This is why you always see these kits sell poorly. Rest assured that there are many more ISO users than sales of these kits would suggest.
I don't disagree with anything you said.
I'm not really happy either with the current placement of the ISO keys.
I think the reason why GMK numpads don't sell currently is because they are incomplete, ie. setup for full-size/1800/96-key boards and not actual separate numpads.
Post by: depletedvespene on Mon, 11 May 2020, 13:00:55
…
I'm not really happy either with the current placement of the ISO keys.
Good, 'cause it's really not a good placement.
As konstantin said, the best option is to place the four needed keys in the base set. You can even choose just the one vertical Enter key, to avoid having two of them there (for this particular set, the accent Enter is the obvious choice).
I think the reason why GMK numpads don't sell currently is because they are incomplete, ie. setup for full-size/1800/96-key boards and not actual separate numpads.
What are you missing? Other than the R1/R0 Esc/Tab/=/Backspace keys that several companies place on the numbads they offer, I can't think of other stuff that's missing from extant independent numpads.
Post by: hkiri on Mon, 11 May 2020, 13:06:08
Thanks for including a separate Accents kit. Any chance for getting an ISO Enter with Icon + Text?
WoB uses Icon + Text Mods and so does the included ISO Enters.
It's more convenient to offer only one type of ISO Enter, because they come in pairs (blue and grey). Again, we're not really decided on ISO yet. I was hoping nobody would ask for the icon+text ISO Enter ;D
Really sad to hear this. That destroys the whole compatibility with already existing sets (WoB in this case) for me.
But well, that's the ISO-life...
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 11 May 2020, 13:41:27
Thanks for including a separate Accents kit. Any chance for getting an ISO Enter with Icon + Text?
WoB uses Icon + Text Mods and so does the included ISO Enters.
It's more convenient to offer only one type of ISO Enter, because they come in pairs (blue and grey). Again, we're not really decided on ISO yet. I was hoping nobody would ask for the icon+text ISO Enter ;D
Really sad to hear this. That destroys the whole compatibility with already existing sets (WoB in this case) for me.
But well, that's the ISO-life...
We'll add the text-icon ISO Enter to the Accent kit, given that it fits into the voted (https://forms.gle/xpACWNPh9497PB8Q7) budget.
As of now, the weighted average budget for the Accent kit is $24.
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 11 May 2020, 13:59:59
Please also include basic ISO support in the base kit (ISO Enter, R3 1u \|, R4 1u <>, R4 1.25u Shift).
Do you have a reference for this layout?
Post by: depletedvespene on Mon, 11 May 2020, 14:24:05
Please also include basic ISO support in the base kit (ISO Enter, R3 1u \|, R4 1u <>, R4 1.25u Shift).
Do you have a reference for this layout?
Ahem... http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/#enUS (http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/#enUS)
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 11 May 2020, 14:29:11
Please also include basic ISO support in the base kit (ISO Enter, R3 1u \|, R4 1u <>, R4 1.25u Shift).
Do you have a reference for this layout?
Ahem... http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/#enUS (http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/#enUS)
Thanks. I had genuinely never seen it before.
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 11 May 2020, 15:23:59
Please also include basic ISO support in the base kit (ISO Enter, R3 1u \|, R4 1u <>, R4 1.25u Shift).
Do you have a reference for this layout?
Ahem... http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/#enUS (http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/#enUS)
Oh, it's your page! Sorry, I'm out of the loop.
I actually came across your "Why do keycap sets have so many copies of the backslash-pipe key?" page on Google once and thought it was quite funny. :))
Post by: depletedvespene on Mon, 11 May 2020, 16:12:22
Please also include basic ISO support in the base kit (ISO Enter, R3 1u \|, R4 1u <>, R4 1.25u Shift).
Do you have a reference for this layout?
Ahem... http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/#enUS (http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/#enUS)
Oh, it's your page! Sorry, I'm out of the loop.
I actually came across your "Why do keycap sets have so many copies of the backslash-pipe key?" page on Google once and thought it was quite funny. :))
I'll take that as a compliment. :)
Post by: enrique.aliaga on Mon, 11 May 2020, 18:47:59
First of all, thanks so much for moving forward with this great idea for a set!!
I’ve got some concerns with the new proposal of an “Accents” kit.
The current kit design is missing several keys that were present in the original Croktopus-authored IC. They are enclosed in red rectangles in the attached image.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200511/3eea37b6971f25a84150ad53cde5bb03.plist)
I think these keys would really make the Accents a much better buy for WoB owners such as myself. When used alongside WoB, they make any keyboard more closely resemble the original Thinkpad keyboard. Remember several keys on Thinkpads had blue secondary legends. The missing keys would really complete the package.
Is there any chance to include those keys in the Accents kit?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 11 May 2020, 20:16:51
Hey voodoo and Croktopus,
First of all, thanks so much for moving forward with this great idea for a set!!
I’ve got some concerns with the new proposal of an “Accents” kit.
The current kit design is missing several keys that were present in the original Croktopus-authored IC. They are enclosed in red rectangles in the attached image.Show Image(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200511/3eea37b6971f25a84150ad53cde5bb03.plist)
I think these keys would really make the Accents a much better buy for WoB owners such as myself. When used alongside WoB, they make any keyboard more closely resemble the original Thinkpad keyboard. Remember several keys on Thinkpads had blue secondary legends. The missing keys would really complete the package.
Is there any chance to include those keys in the Accents kit?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hey, thanks for raising the issue. I know Crokto wanted to bring it up as well.
The main problem is that the custom accent colour is too dark to provide enough contrast with CR and N9. It's pretty much the same colour intensity as N9. On black it could work, although not ideal.
For example, even on the Thinkpad keyboard (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/ThinkPad_USB_keyboard_%283829537325%29.jpg), they use a lighter blue colour for the legends. There is no real stock colour alternative, the closest being V4 and DY (https://i.imgur.com/4HansnG.jpg). Adding a second custom colour is impossible because those legends won't account for enough plastic material.
Lastly, depending on the survey (https://forms.gle/xpACWNPh9497PB8Q7), the average budget for the accent kit is going to be around $20~25, so we'll have to pick and choose what's in it. Of course, we could always add those keys to the novelties or icon mods. If enough people are onboard with the blue/purple legends (either V4 or DY), we can try to figure something out.
Personally, I prefer the blue Fn, spacebars and Esc keys because they're more uniform. I will try to make a composite picture of the blue legends on the actual GMK samples, to illustrate my point.
Post by: ideus on Mon, 11 May 2020, 21:12:41
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Mon, 11 May 2020, 21:56:35
can we add vertical 2u Delete key (same as numpad + key) to Novelties kit? or if Delete legend is not possible, can we use the corresponding key from GMK Dot?
[...]
I know there are not many boards that support this key but please consider ;D
Is there any?
yes,
Duck TC-V3 (http://)
Timber Wolf (http://) (from Croktopus)
do you believe me if I say I have the urge to create a board which include this key? :D
Post by: depletedvespene on Mon, 11 May 2020, 22:14:51
can we add vertical 2u Delete key (same as numpad + key) to Novelties kit? or if Delete legend is not possible, can we use the corresponding key from GMK Dot?
[...]
I know there are not many boards that support this key but please consider ;D
Is there any?
yes,
Duck TC-V3 (http://)
Timber Wolf (http://) (from Croktopus)
do you believe me if I say I have the urge to create a board which include this key? :D
I do have the temptation of building, for shirts and gingers, a TKL with a Wang-style Delete key, with Insert moved to either the "F13" position or to the right of the split right Shift, and then make all kinds of jokes about "playing with my wang". Mr. Wang of Wang Laboratories joked about it himself, so I think we should carry on with his legacy. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Post by: LightningXI on Tue, 12 May 2020, 01:10:42
Love the choice of CP for the legends rather than WS1.
Post by: Croktopus on Tue, 12 May 2020, 03:21:11
The current kit design is missing several keys that were present in the original Croktopus-authored IC.
voodoo's reply pretty much covers it. We're looking into some v4 on black options while keeping budget in mind. something I'm considering is killing the escape key to fit in more authentic keycaps, if it comes down to that. however, the f keys and arrow keys aren't gonna work out - they were more like auxiliary keys in the first place to fill out the kit and try to provide a slightly better value by adding significantly more keycaps for hopefully not significantly more money (before i realized how impractical the add on kit was in the first place), but now i'd like to re-orient it towards being as faithful as reasonable towards the original, whereas people that want a good looking keycap set with thinkpad vibes can get the base kit!
Post by: voodoo6k on Tue, 12 May 2020, 10:02:55
Love this. A lot. My only issue is that to get Alpha coloured split spacebars (2.25, 1.25, 2.75u all convex) you have to purchase the 40s kit and the minila kit. Would be nicer if only one kit was necessary (and ideally a small one at that!) Maybe put split alpha-coloured bars in the spacebar kit?
Nevermind. I'm taking note.
Post by: Myoth on Tue, 12 May 2020, 16:27:37
non-centered certainly is better for compatibility with other sets, WoB for exemple
Post by: William_S_Jones on Tue, 12 May 2020, 21:02:34
Love it & hope that 40% specific kit w/ alphas & mods included makes it b/c I'll buy it. Then I'll just need the numberpad kit. EVERYONE PLEASE VOTE THE 40% SPECIFIC IN!!!!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: voodoo6k on Tue, 12 May 2020, 21:28:25
I'm very interested in this, but I need to know, for the Accent kit, and the RGB kit, are the icons centered ?
non-centered certainly is better for compatibility with other sets, WoB for exemple
The icon Shift and Caps lock keys will be in the old style, off-center. Sorry the renders don't reflect this, I will correct them eventually.
Unless I am mistaken, the Accent kit is not affect by the centered icons?
[mention]voodoo6k [/mention]
Love it & hope that 40% specific kit w/ alphas & mods included makes it b/c I'll buy it. Then I'll just need the numberpad kit. EVERYONE PLEASE VOTE THE 40% SPECIFIC IN!!!!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Awesome :)
Post by: apejonk on Wed, 13 May 2020, 05:17:27
Post by: jouz on Wed, 13 May 2020, 07:45:43
Post by: kidviddy on Wed, 13 May 2020, 08:39:16
Would join just to get my hands on a 3u spacebar!
Yes! That’s kind of why I’m here too ;-)
Post by: ideus on Wed, 13 May 2020, 08:56:47
Post by: NMZS on Wed, 13 May 2020, 09:07:34
If you would add Icon varaints for all mods (ctrl, alt, etc.), like the in the Hiragana Micons set, it would make all existing GMK WoB out there compatible with ThinkCaps without the need to purchase the base setYes pls! Offering a set as a compliment to GMK WoB would be awesome and an instant buy from me. I already own the candykeys WoB version and would love to be able to "spice it up" (which feels weird to say given this is thinkpad-inspired :P) without spending a ton on a full set where most of the keys are duplicates of ones I already own.
Post by: gfreeman11898 on Wed, 13 May 2020, 09:31:59
I just remembered I already have this set in WS1, ;D
[attach=1]
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 13 May 2020, 10:51:19
Why use CP for the legends? If you go with WS1 across the board, it offers more compatibility with other GMK sets (Originative Dolch, WoB, Burgundy).
I just remembered I already have this set in WS1, ;D
(Attachment Link)
This is my opinion, but I think WS1 is not the best choice for legends.
First, you mention Originative Dolch and Drop WoB; what about OG Dolch and Cherry WoB? These are CP and account for arguably more sets.
Second, WS1 is much more translucent than CP (and other colours in general). The result is a milky legend that is less sharp in most lighting situations. In other words: CP just looks better.
Lastly, this is more of an OG set. Those (like yourself) who want to combine WS1 Dolch and WoB, or WoB only, can purchase the accent kit which will have the WS1 legends for this exact reason.
Hopefully this clears things up.
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 13 May 2020, 11:00:36
I suggest to ask GMK for samples of the icon mods (particularly the Enter keys) when the order has been submitted. Just to assure that the long arrow molds have been fixed.
I'll be frank, I'm not aware of the situation... I thought it was only about the Shift symbols. Do you have any pictures showing the difference between the Enter keys?
Post by: equalunique on Wed, 13 May 2020, 11:00:45
Uh oh. I didn't realize this wouldn't match the BoW Colevrak+ kits that recently ran on Novelkeys. Personally, I have way too much QWERTY sets and not enough complete Dvorak ones to match my actual keymap, so I'm less likley to join now since the whites don't match. That's a shame, because there are a lot of great kits here. I respect your choice tho.Why use CP for the legends? If you go with WS1 across the board, it offers more compatibility with other GMK sets (Originative Dolch, WoB, Burgundy).
I just remembered I already have this set in WS1, ;D
(Attachment Link)
This is my opinion, but I think WS1 is not the best choice for legends.
First, you mention Originative Dolch and Drop WoB; what about OG Dolch and Cherry WoB? These are CP and account for arguably more sets.
Second, WS1 is much more translucent than CP (and other colours in general). The result is a milky legend that is less sharp in most lighting situations. In other words: CP just looks better.
Lastly, this is more of an OG set. Those (like yourself) who want to combine WS1 Dolch and WoB, or WoB only, can purchase the accent kit which will have the WS1 legends for this exact reason.
Hopefully this clears things up.
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 13 May 2020, 11:03:33
Uh oh. I didn't realize this wouldn't match the BoW Colevrak+ kits that recently ran on Novelkeys. Personally, I have way too much QWERTY sets and not enough complete Dvorak ones to match my actual keymap, so I'm less likley to join now since the whites don't match. That's a shame, because there are a lot of great kits here.Why use CP for the legends? If you go with WS1 across the board, it offers more compatibility with other GMK sets (Originative Dolch, WoB, Burgundy).
I just remembered I already have this set in WS1, ;D
(Attachment Link)
This is my opinion, but I think WS1 is not the best choice for legends.
First, you mention Originative Dolch and Drop WoB; what about OG Dolch and Cherry WoB? These are CP and account for arguably more sets.
Second, WS1 is much more translucent than CP (and other colours in general). The result is a milky legend that is less sharp in most lighting situations. In other words: CP just looks better.
Lastly, this is more of an OG set. Those (like yourself) who want to combine WS1 Dolch and WoB, or WoB only, can purchase the accent kit which will have the WS1 legends for this exact reason.
Hopefully this clears things up.
Sorry. That's why we provide the accent kit.
Edit: You can refer to this post: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=99984.msg2766769#msg2766769
Post by: equalunique on Wed, 13 May 2020, 11:08:45
Got a Tex Yoda II & a Shinobi in the mail.Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.
Just to be clear, as a general response, the black is the same as WoB (CR), and dark grey is the same as the GMK Dolch modifiers (N9), very common colours to maximize compatibility.
This is basically like inverted (Sky) MoDo (https://i.redd.it/x3sa8qm3i2g41.jpg) with white legends.Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex YodaGot the same idea, so +1Show Image(https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_3272_large_texy2gmkcaps_6.jpg)
I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
No promises, but we can look into this...
For the Shinobi, GMK keys would be amazing, but I think the main challenge is the 0.75u keys at the top.
For both, I wonder if it would make more sense to have a 3D-printable jig that can hold the center keys in place for DIY drilling. On the other hand, AFAIK those special Tex Yoda sets from GMK came with the keys drilled, so they are presumably capable of doing it again.
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 13 May 2020, 11:14:50
Got a Tex Yoda II & a Shinobi in the mail.Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.
Just to be clear, as a general response, the black is the same as WoB (CR), and dark grey is the same as the GMK Dolch modifiers (N9), very common colours to maximize compatibility.
This is basically like inverted (Sky) MoDo (https://i.redd.it/x3sa8qm3i2g41.jpg) with white legends.Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex YodaGot the same idea, so +1Show Image(https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_3272_large_texy2gmkcaps_6.jpg)
I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
No promises, but we can look into this...
For the Shinobi, GMK keys would be amazing, but I think the main challenge is the 0.75u keys at the top.
For both, I wonder if it would make more sense to have a 3D-printable jig that can hold the center keys in place for DIY drilling. On the other hand, AFAIK those special Tex Yoda sets from GMK came with the keys drilled, so they are presumably capable of doing it again.
Shinobi is not possible.
As for the Yoda, if we can get our hands on the machined G H B keys, then adding the spaces should be a no brainer.
I assume 2 x 1.25u and 1 x 1u convex is preferred for the thumb buttons?
Post by: equalunique on Wed, 13 May 2020, 11:29:24
1.25u R4 convex wasn't available when that GMK Tex Yoda keyset premiered. Not sure, but could be the same case for 1u R4C too. Now that both are available, it seems to me they'd be the preffered combo.Got a Tex Yoda II & a Shinobi in the mail.Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.
Just to be clear, as a general response, the black is the same as WoB (CR), and dark grey is the same as the GMK Dolch modifiers (N9), very common colours to maximize compatibility.
This is basically like inverted (Sky) MoDo (https://i.redd.it/x3sa8qm3i2g41.jpg) with white legends.Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex YodaGot the same idea, so +1Show Image(https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_3272_large_texy2gmkcaps_6.jpg)
I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
No promises, but we can look into this...
For the Shinobi, GMK keys would be amazing, but I think the main challenge is the 0.75u keys at the top.
For both, I wonder if it would make more sense to have a 3D-printable jig that can hold the center keys in place for DIY drilling. On the other hand, AFAIK those special Tex Yoda sets from GMK came with the keys drilled, so they are presumably capable of doing it again.
Shinobi is not possible.
As for the Yoda, if we can get our hands on the machined G H B keys, then adding the spaces should be a no brainer.
I assume 2 x 1.25u and 1 x 1u convex is preferred for the thumb buttons?
Post by: gfreeman11898 on Wed, 13 May 2020, 13:21:04
Uh oh. I didn't realize this wouldn't match the BoW Colevrak+ kits that recently ran on Novelkeys. Personally, I have way too much QWERTY sets and not enough complete Dvorak ones to match my actual keymap, so I'm less likley to join now since the whites don't match. That's a shame, because there are a lot of great kits here.Why use CP for the legends? If you go with WS1 across the board, it offers more compatibility with other GMK sets (Originative Dolch, WoB, Burgundy).
I just remembered I already have this set in WS1, ;D
(Attachment Link)
This is my opinion, but I think WS1 is not the best choice for legends.
First, you mention Originative Dolch and Drop WoB; what about OG Dolch and Cherry WoB? These are CP and account for arguably more sets.
Second, WS1 is much more translucent than CP (and other colours in general). The result is a milky legend that is less sharp in most lighting situations. In other words: CP just looks better.
Lastly, this is more of an OG set. Those (like yourself) who want to combine WS1 Dolch and WoB, or WoB only, can purchase the accent kit which will have the WS1 legends for this exact reason.
Hopefully this clears things up.
Sorry. That's why we provide the accent kit.
Edit: You can refer to this post: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=99984.msg2766769#msg2766769
If you're not a perfectionist, WS1 and CP are very similar to the naked eye. I'm extra careful when handling Originative Dolch (WS1) and Kekkon Dolch (CP). I appreciate the OG style of this set, most likely will pick up with a couple of add-ons.
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 13 May 2020, 15:55:49
If you would add Icon varaints for all mods (ctrl, alt, etc.), like the in the Hiragana Micons set, it would make all existing GMK WoB out there compatible with ThinkCaps without the need to purchase the base setYes pls! Offering a set as a compliment to GMK WoB would be awesome and an instant buy from me. I already own the candykeys WoB version and would love to be able to "spice it up" (which feels weird to say given this is thinkpad-inspired :P) without spending a ton on a full set where most of the keys are duplicates of ones I already own.
It is unlikely at this point, however you can get both RGB + Icons for a complete (60%) mod set. That would spice it up quite nicely!
I edited the kit renders to reflect the actual icon positions.
Post by: RETURNISO on Wed, 13 May 2020, 16:26:04
I know CandyKeys wants a NorDe kit, so it (ISO) may very well end up in the international kit.
Please consider the NorDe / International kit :thumb:
Nice with the OG icons update, lovely :cool:
Post by: andr01d on Wed, 13 May 2020, 17:01:21
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 13 May 2020, 19:49:41
Imagine a set of these that fit a Model M13
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=102826.0
Post by: fatpolomanjr on Wed, 13 May 2020, 21:29:47
(https://i.imgur.com/ZkbZv5J.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6zZOJK8.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/uO3ATJ3.jpg)
Post by: depletedvespene on Wed, 13 May 2020, 22:26:32
Also, why no arrow on the numpad and accent enter keys?
I don't think IBM or Lenovo ever put an arrow on their numpad enter keys.
For that matter, the numpad on IBM keyboards always had * and / (instead of Cherry's × and ÷ symbols).
Post by: spakecdk on Thu, 14 May 2020, 08:10:11
since you are trying to capture the old school feel, imo the old numpad icons ("/" and "*") would be better suited for this set.
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 14 May 2020, 10:20:53
Also, why no arrow on the numpad and accent enter keys?
I don't think IBM or Lenovo ever put an arrow on their numpad enter keys.
For that matter, the numpad on IBM keyboards always had * and / (instead of Cherry's × and ÷ symbols).
Two humble requests: adding US-ISO to the ISO kit, and the more important one:
since you are trying to capture the old school feel, imo the old numpad icons ("/" and "*") would be better suited for this set.
I do prefer "/ *" on the numpad. As mentioned before, I'm not really a fan of "Code" as an OS key. Not fond of 1.5u Backspace either. Nit picky things.
I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 14 May 2020, 10:23:19
(https://i.imgur.com/lnseERT.jpg)
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/gjlju6/miami_vibes/
Post by: konstantin on Thu, 14 May 2020, 10:24:46
I do prefer "/ *" on the numpad. As mentioned before, I'm not really a fan of "Code" as an OS key. Not fond of 1.5u Backspace either. Nit picky things.
I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.
Have you considered using System for the OS keys? “System” on 1.25u, 1.5u, and “Sys” on 1u.
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 14 May 2020, 10:28:31
Quote
Code
Are you a cashier? ;D
Post by: enrique.aliaga on Thu, 14 May 2020, 11:56:31
Hopefully it gets run faithfully some day in the not-so-distant future.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: depletedvespene on Thu, 14 May 2020, 13:33:56
…
I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.
Speaking of which, why haven't you gotten rid of the (rightly maligned) "Windows" icons/symbols yet? Generally speaking, we all agree that any logo is better. And specially on a set inspired by IBM(/Lenovo)'s keyboards.
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 14 May 2020, 14:08:29
The set not being a faithful representation of the OG board is the reason I’m not joining this GB.
Hopefully it gets run faithfully some day in the not-so-distant future.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
…
I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.
Speaking of which, why haven't you gotten rid of the (rightly maligned) "Windows" icons/symbols yet? Generally speaking, we all agree that any logo is better. And specially on a set inspired by IBM(/Lenovo)'s keyboards.
I do appreciate the tough love we get around here! Some people like the Windows keys (myself included).
Did you want me to substitute them for Meta ◇ symbols? I actually thought I was doing everyone a favour by not including the Windows keys in the base set... Have you noticed that they are optional?
I feel like you're trying to checkmate me here... I'm waiting for this: "No, they are not! Because us international users are forced to buy the icon modifiers!" ;)
Here's what I wrote on DT, for anyone wondering about your ISO/vertical Enter concerns:
Quote
The main motivation behind combining the ISO and icon modifier kits was that offering both icon+text and icon-only ISO options would require 4 vertical Enter keys in total (2 blue + 2 grey) to retain compatibility with the RGB modifiers.
We decided on icon-only (for now...) because that's how IBM, Cherry and most other manufacturers did it, historically. Thus moving ISO to the icon modifier kit was logical (and helps meeting MOQ for both). In addition, moving it there allows us to include more keys such as Alt Gr, which I like seeing.
In hindsight, it does look like we're "forcing" the icon modifiers onto the international users. I'm trying to find another solution. Sorry about the bad wording, and thanks for the picture!
Post by: depletedvespene on Thu, 14 May 2020, 14:54:08
……
I try to strike the right balance of OG and trendy. This is more of a Cherry/IBM hybrid. The symbols fit better with the icon mods.
Speaking of which, why haven't you gotten rid of the (rightly maligned) "Windows" icons/symbols yet? Generally speaking, we all agree that any logo is better. And specially on a set inspired by IBM(/Lenovo)'s keyboards.
I do appreciate the tough love we get around here! Some people like the Windows keys (myself included).
Everyone is entitled to its own modicum of bad taste. ;)
(but the Windows logo is still an abject, abominable sight)
Did you want me to substitute them for Meta ◇ symbols? I actually thought I was doing everyone a favour by not including the Windows keys in the base set... Have you noticed that they are optional?
They stain the set. Even if they remain unused and hidden away. This is, like, the objective & undeniable truth and stuff (YMMV).
Jokes aside, as per a proper replacement goes, I'm very strongly of the opinion of the opinion of "Anything but this!" so, indeed, most things are fine by me. As things go, I used to prefer "Meta" as the legend and ◇ as the icon version of meta, but lately I've taken a liking to konstantin's suggestion of "System"/"Sys" (just don't do that shebang thing - it tries to be cute but fails).
Also, I'm not sure if using the Windows logos STILL require a license payment to Microsoft. What if that is still the case?
I feel like you're trying to checkmate me here... I'm waiting for this: "No, they are not! Because us international users are forced to buy the icon modifiers!" ;)
Well, I like the icon modifiers (except the Windows logos!), so that's actually fine by me! :cool:
I think the best compromise for a set is to go for the "English (US), terminal style" keys added to the base kit (1.25U left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and (at least) one vertical Enter key); this allows proper and complete support for one national layout (English (US), over an ISO, ANSI or ANSISO keyboard) and avoids the "backslash-pipe duplication" some people dislike.
Aditionally, an optional kit can add the necessary keys to support English (UK) over ISO, if there are indeed enough British users interested in the set (or, for that matter, do a Norde or a Norde UK kit, etc.).
The main thing is to not fall into the trap of supporting only English (US) over ANSI + English (UK) over ISO (or worse, only partial support for the latter).
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:11:41
[...]
Well, I like the icon modifiers (except the Windows logos!), so that's actually fine by me! :cool:
[...]
So why are we arguing? :p
I hate to quote someone out of context, but the two biggest proponents (in this thread) for base set ISO are konstantin and yourself:
konstantin said it was "smart" to put ISO with icon mods, and you're actually fine with it?
Post by: depletedvespene on Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:21:35
[...]
Well, I like the icon modifiers (except the Windows logos!), so that's actually fine by me! :cool:
[...]
So why are we arguing? :p
This IS geekhack, is it not? ;)
I hate to quote someone out of context, but the two biggest proponents (in this thread) for base set ISO are konstantin and yourself:
konstantin said it was "smart" to put ISO with icon mods, and you're actually fine with it?
As compromises go, this is workable. I still think the "minimal ISO" subset (short left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and one vertical Enter) ought to always be in the base kit.
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:23:34
[...]
Well, I like the icon modifiers (except the Windows logos!), so that's actually fine by me! :cool:
[...]
So why are we arguing? :p
This IS geekhack, is it not? ;)I hate to quote someone out of context, but the two biggest proponents (in this thread) for base set ISO are konstantin and yourself:
konstantin said it was "smart" to put ISO with icon mods, and you're actually fine with it?
As compromises go, this is workable. I still think the "minimal ISO" subset (short left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and one vertical Enter) ought to always be in the base kit.
I will be getting a quote for a base kit that includes basic ISO-US compatibility (vertical Enter, 1.25u Shift and both R3/4 \|). That said, I'm also removing ISO-UK from the icon mods (leaving only the icon Enters).
Post by: ideus on Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:41:57
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 14 May 2020, 15:46:35
I have posted on this previously and do not want to be repetitive, so this is the second and last time that I will bother you with this: You have to take care of preventing the irregular legends for icon modifiers to be produced. In particular, the long arrow in the enter key. GMK has stated that those legends being irregular is just normal, which is not the case with OG Cherry keys.
No problem. I think I replied to your comment.
Post by: Ensaum on Thu, 14 May 2020, 17:54:30
Post by: Pejano on Thu, 14 May 2020, 18:56:27
Are GMK actually making 3u keys now?
Post by: equalunique on Thu, 14 May 2020, 19:02:52
1.25u R4 convex wasn't available when that GMK Tex Yoda keyset premiered. Not sure, but could be the same case for 1u R4C too. Now that both are available, it seems to me they'd be the preferred combo.Got a Tex Yoda II & a Shinobi in the mail.Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.
Just to be clear, as a general response, the black is the same as WoB (CR), and dark grey is the same as the GMK Dolch modifiers (N9), very common colours to maximize compatibility.
This is basically like inverted (Sky) MoDo (https://i.redd.it/x3sa8qm3i2g41.jpg) with white legends.Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex YodaGot the same idea, so +1Show Image(https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_3272_large_texy2gmkcaps_6.jpg)
I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
No promises, but we can look into this...
For the Shinobi, GMK keys would be amazing, but I think the main challenge is the 0.75u keys at the top.
For both, I wonder if it would make more sense to have a 3D-printable jig that can hold the center keys in place for DIY drilling. On the other hand, AFAIK those special Tex Yoda sets from GMK came with the keys drilled, so they are presumably capable of doing it again.
Shinobi is not possible.
As for the Yoda, if we can get our hands on the machined G H B keys, then adding the spaces should be a no brainer.
I assume 2 x 1.25u and 1 x 1u convex is preferred for the thumb buttons?
Opened up a Shinobi box today. Yeah, it's definitely not going to work.
- There are 0.75u keys used for the F-row and above, as well as for the arrow cluster below.
- It also uses a very rare 4.5u size spacebar.
- The G, H, and B keys are quite different from the ones produced for the Yoda - more material is removed from the bottoms and top.
- The bottom mouse keys are also all 1.25u instead of the 1.25u+1u+1.25u arrangement found on the Yoda.
Post by: godofdeath on Thu, 14 May 2020, 19:58:40
Post by: konstantin on Fri, 15 May 2020, 08:05:12
I hate to quote someone out of context, but the two biggest proponents (in this thread) for base set ISO are konstantin and yourself:
konstantin said it was "smart" to put ISO with icon mods, and you're actually fine with it?
Indeed, that's taking what I said very much out of context :) While the idea is smart when considered in isolation, in this case it does a lot more harm than good to the set, in my opinion. It's good that you asked for a quote for a base kit with the 4 basic ISO keys; that will be a good indicator of what should be done with the ISO support moving forward.
By the way, I'm not sure what this reply was in regards to:
but lmk what you think about the System/Sys suggestion.QuoteCode
Are you a cashier? ;D
I think the best compromise for a set is to go for the "English (US), terminal style" keys added to the base kit (1.25U left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and (at least) one vertical Enter key); this allows proper and complete support for one national layout (English (US), over an ISO, ANSI or ANSISO keyboard) and avoids the "backslash-pipe duplication" some people dislike.
I agree. I wrote more about this issue here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=90706.msg2894820#msg2894820). I see voodoo seems to be fond of surveys; it includes an interpretation of data from an actual survey! ;)
Post by: kokugatsu on Fri, 15 May 2020, 11:45:52
Post by: voodoo6k on Fri, 15 May 2020, 11:53:34
Any chance of adding some of the novelties to the add-on pack? Specifically the blue fn keys and media keys in WS1 on CR?
Hi Ensaum. There won't be any blue Fn keys in the accent kit. As a solution, I suggest just getting the novelties, as the difference in legend colour is quite small.
If we add anything to the accent kit, it will be an icon+text vertical Enter (ISO), then some blue on CR Fn keys (unlikely due to the average budget).
Post by: voodoo6k on Fri, 15 May 2020, 11:54:40
1.25u R4 convex wasn't available when that GMK Tex Yoda keyset premiered. Not sure, but could be the same case for 1u R4C too. Now that both are available, it seems to me they'd be the preferred combo.Got a Tex Yoda II & a Shinobi in the mail.Looks neat, I'm down for the rgb and accent kit but not really a fan of the black and gray together.
Just to be clear, as a general response, the black is the same as WoB (CR), and dark grey is the same as the GMK Dolch modifiers (N9), very common colours to maximize compatibility.
This is basically like inverted (Sky) MoDo (https://i.redd.it/x3sa8qm3i2g41.jpg) with white legends.Would be cool if you could have a kit with the same drilled keys as GMK Tex YodaGot the same idea, so +1Show Image(https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_3272_large_texy2gmkcaps_6.jpg)
I should think the people who bought TEX yoda and shinobi would be interested, though not sure how many there are
No promises, but we can look into this...
For the Shinobi, GMK keys would be amazing, but I think the main challenge is the 0.75u keys at the top.
For both, I wonder if it would make more sense to have a 3D-printable jig that can hold the center keys in place for DIY drilling. On the other hand, AFAIK those special Tex Yoda sets from GMK came with the keys drilled, so they are presumably capable of doing it again.
Shinobi is not possible.
As for the Yoda, if we can get our hands on the machined G H B keys, then adding the spaces should be a no brainer.
I assume 2 x 1.25u and 1 x 1u convex is preferred for the thumb buttons?
Opened up a Shinobi box today. Yeah, it's definitely not going to work.Too bad! GMK ABS double-shot keycaps would be a nice improvement over the Shinobi's stock Laser-foamed/ablated ones.
- There are 0.75u keys used for the F-row and above, as well as for the arrow cluster below.
- It also uses a very rare 4.5u size spacebar.
- The G, H, and B keys are quite different from the ones produced for the Yoda - more material is removed from the bottoms and top.
- The bottom mouse keys are also all 1.25u instead of the 1.25u+1u+1.25u arrangement found on the Yoda.
Thanks for the info!
Post by: andr01d on Fri, 15 May 2020, 16:47:04
Imagine a set of these that fit a Model M13
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=102826.0
While this is a nice keyboard, its not exactly what I meant. The M13 has a trackpoint. I currently use a Unicomp with the trackpoint, and would love an IBM themed keyset to fit the buckling spring switches. Even if I had to dremmel a couple of the keycaps to fit the trackpoint.
Post by: hineybush on Fri, 15 May 2020, 17:08:09
pls add Alt Gr to the RGB mods
Post by: voodoo6k on Sat, 16 May 2020, 18:40:10
- Project page: https://drop.com/talk/39383/gmk-think-caps
- Poll: https://drop.com/vote/GMK-ThinkCaps
Even though this is run independently, we'll need it for exposure. Especially if we want all these kits to be made.
yooooo this is sick thanks
pls add Alt Gr to the RGB mods
Hey hiney. You're an Alt Gr fan, aren't you...
Post by: hineybush on Sat, 16 May 2020, 18:44:01
I put up a project page and poll on Drop:i'm
- Project page: https://drop.com/talk/39383/gmk-think-caps
- Poll: https://drop.com/vote/GMK-ThinkCaps
Even though this is run independently, we'll need it for exposure. Especially if we want all these kits to be made.yooooo this is sick thanks
pls add Alt Gr to the RGB mods
Hey hiney. You're an Alt Gr fan, aren't you...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: ideus on Sun, 17 May 2020, 17:26:07
I have posted on this previously and do not want to be repetitive, so this is the second and last time that I will bother you with this: You have to take care of preventing the irregular legends for icon modifiers to be produced. In particular, the long arrow in the enter key. GMK has stated that those legends being irregular is just normal, which is not the case with OG Cherry keys.
No problem. I think I replied to your comment.I am not really aware of the issue, do you have any pictures of the irregular Enter keys so I can better explain it to GMK?
My bad: I did not catch your replay on the first post. There is an entire thread about the issues with icon legends in a recent GB for Icon Mods (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=101664.0):
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=101664.0
I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.
Post by: Hawksmoor on Sun, 17 May 2020, 19:15:54
I think the best compromise for a set is to go for the "English (US), terminal style" keys added to the base kit (1.25U left Shift, R4 <>, R3 \| and (at least) one vertical Enter key); this allows proper and complete support for one national layout (English (US), over an ISO, ANSI or ANSISO keyboard) and avoids the "backslash-pipe duplication" some people dislike.
I agree. I wrote more about this issue here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=90706.msg2894820#msg2894820). I see voodoo seems to be fond of surveys; it includes an interpretation of data from an actual survey! ;)
Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users. Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures
Post by: PlastikSchnittstelle on Mon, 18 May 2020, 05:51:31
This GB will definately hit MOQ!
Would you PLEASE add R5 and R0 to this GB?
Post by: Pylon on Mon, 18 May 2020, 10:40:59
Post by: konstantin on Mon, 18 May 2020, 13:51:20
Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users. Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures
Thanks for checking the data yourself and taking the critical approach here — I appreciate it.
At the time of writing that post, the data I had to go off were the respondents' country numbers from the survey. Despite the fact that the total ended up being higher than the number of self-reported ISO users, I decided that this would be good enough, since it's not the exact numbers that matter, but rather the relative distribution between the different countries / national layouts. This is why at first I was reluctant to cite the precise numbers in the post and not just the percentages, but I decided to do so anyway exactly because I wanted others to be able to check my calculations.
In the meantime, I've tried to do my due diligence by reaching out to the author of the 2020 Megasurvey, /u/blockedbyte, to obtain the raw results of the survey. I wanted to do this so I could conduct a more precise analysis by taking into account just the countries/layouts of self-reported ISO users (the 293 you mentioned). However, I've yet to receive a response, and the other person who was involved in the survey, /u/dont_settle, said that they've also been unable to reach the author and get the raw data.
So I'm afraid that the best data we currently have is the country distribution, which is what I used in the post. I believe it to be representative nonetheless since, again, it's the ratios that matter. If I do get the more detailed data from the survey, I'll be sure to update my post accordingly. For the time being, I've edited out the potentially confusing wording about user numbers (thanks for pointing that out).
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .If you check the layouts I mentioned in the first footnote in that post again, all of them do in fact use either a R3 \| key or a R4 <> key. This is in line with what I said about them being partially supported, so my original statement is not incorrect.
Post by: Hawksmoor on Mon, 18 May 2020, 16:35:21
Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users. Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures
Thanks for checking the data yourself and taking the critical approach here — I appreciate it.
At the time of writing that post, the data I had to go off were the respondents' country numbers from the survey. Despite the fact that the total ended up being higher than the number of self-reported ISO users, I decided that this would be good enough, since it's not the exact numbers that matter, but rather the relative distribution between the different countries / national layouts. This is why at first I was reluctant to cite the precise numbers in the post and not just the percentages, but I decided to do so anyway exactly because I wanted others to be able to check my calculations.
In the meantime, I've tried to do my due diligence by reaching out to the author of the 2020 Megasurvey, /u/blockedbyte, to obtain the raw results of the survey. I wanted to do this so I could conduct a more precise analysis by taking into account just the countries/layouts of self-reported ISO users (the 293 you mentioned). However, I've yet to receive a response, and the other person who was involved in the survey, /u/dont_settle, said that they've also been unable to reach the author and get the raw data.
So I'm afraid that the best data we currently have is the country distribution, which is what I used in the post. I believe it to be representative nonetheless since, again, it's the ratios that matter. If I do get the more detailed data from the survey, I'll be sure to update my post accordingly. For the time being, I've edited out the potentially confusing wording about user numbers (thanks for pointing that out).Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .If you check the layouts I mentioned in the first footnote in that post again, all of them do in fact use either a R3 \| key or a R4 <> key. This is in line with what I said about them being partially supported, so my original statement is not incorrect.
I took issue with the misrepresentation of the figures and stating them as facts. There weren't even 503 self identified ISO users.
Of the 293 self-identified users, for all is known in the data, 100% of them could be UK/ISO or 100% of them could be FR AZERTY users.
I also take issue with you (and DeplotedVespene) instead of proposing options to give ALL ISO some compatibility in this thread and others, (E.g. requesting an extra key or side printing like old kits like GMK Muted or having R3 ~# and R4 <> (where 83% of users will have partial compatibility - your numbers (49% + 34%)). you propose to take away compatibility from others
Really liked this kit but will not be getting it if the only option is an R3 |\.
Also going to drop this now, as this is not an ISO discussion thread and any more would be disrespectful to the Designer
Post by: depletedvespene on Mon, 18 May 2020, 17:26:09
…
I also take issue with you (and DeplotedVespene) instead of proposing options to give ALL ISO some compatibility in this thread and others, (E.g. requesting an extra key or side printing like old kits like GMK Muted or having R3 ~# and R4 <> (where 83% of users will have partial compatibility - your numbers (49% + 34%)). you propose to take away compatibility from others
The problem is that "some" compatibility is actually worse. If the full set of alphas of a given keycap set is made to support the English (US) national layout, but there is one or two keys that are meant for a different national layout (say, English (UK) or German), it looks wrong and IS wrong.
There is no escaping the fact that (almost) all the custom keycap set start off with support for English (US), and perhaps a delta for (partial or complete) English (UK) support. Therefore, English (US) has to be fully supported first, or else you wind up with absurd situations where the 0xBF key is present for R2 and R1 as \| but as #~ for R3 on a keyboard that otherwise has no English (UK) presence at all. THEN, you can worry about other national layouts.
In an ideal world, we would buy sets choosing a subset of alpha-less modifiers plus a subset of mod-less alphas, and choose the latter from a list of language kits (instead of buying a English (US) alpha subset + a delta subset, as is done today), but we're not there yet, and the current state of affairs forces first to get one national layout (English (US)) right first, then worry about others through kits like, say, NordeUK or BRESLAPTIT. I hope we'll eventually get to the better position of having ten or twelve of the most common national languages offered independently of each other, and keep the few remaining ones on delta kits.
Post by: directheatedtriode on Mon, 18 May 2020, 19:08:14
Post by: Damage on Mon, 18 May 2020, 23:06:20
Post by: shawkes on Tue, 19 May 2020, 11:57:33
Great looking set with great renders.
Post by: IBMweMissU on Wed, 20 May 2020, 03:36:48
Post by: ideus on Wed, 20 May 2020, 09:00:56
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 20 May 2020, 11:12:05
What is the reasoning that supports having the UK kit joined with the Icon Mods set?
The main reasons are:
- Going with icon only follows the almost universal convention that ISO keyboards use icon mods
- The icon mod kit would have to have the ISO Enters and 1.25u Shift anyway
- Alt Gr keys would be omitted from the base set
Recent stats (see dvorcol's posts (https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=messages;u=52009)) show that ISO/international kits sell at around 5% of total base sets.
Do you think it is preferable to impose ISO on all buyers, or to impose icon mods on all ISO users?
Post by: konstantin on Wed, 20 May 2020, 17:52:09
The main reasons are:
- Going with icon only follows the almost universal convention that ISO keyboards use icon mods
- The icon mod kit would have to have the ISO Enters and 1.25u Shift anyway
- Alt Gr keys would be omitted from the base set
Recent stats (see dvorcol's posts (https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=messages;u=52009)) show that ISO/international kits sell at around 5% of total base sets.
Do you think it is preferable to impose ISO on all buyers, or to impose icon mods on all ISO users?
As I said before, international kit sales are not indicative of the number of ISO users, by any stretch:
Namely, most ISO users are happy with basic support and don't want to spend a lot of money to buy an intl compatibility kit. This is why you always see these kits sell poorly. Rest assured that there are many more ISO users than sales of these kits would suggest.I may be wrong, but I think Dvorcol's posts only cover international kit sales.
Besides, you said yourself that you aren't happy with the current placement of the ISO keys. I hope you'll be able to find a better solution for them by the time this goes into GB.
Post by: psxndc on Wed, 20 May 2020, 19:18:37
I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.Sorry to be a dumbass, but what's the issue in these photos? The keys in each look the same to me.
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Wed, 20 May 2020, 23:03:22
I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.Sorry to be a dumbass, but what's the issue in these photos? The keys in each look the same to me.
look closely at the pic of the enter keys, the symbol in enter key below is deformed
[attachimg=1]
Post by: psxndc on Wed, 20 May 2020, 23:19:53
Post by: dallman5 on Thu, 21 May 2020, 00:42:15
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106504.0
Post by: AaronR on Thu, 21 May 2020, 01:29:02
Post by: hineybush on Thu, 21 May 2020, 01:38:52
This might be a long shot, but is there any chance R5 could be added to the RGB mods to make it compatible with LightningXI’s upcoming R5 Dolch?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106504.0
my recent RGBYK set had R5 as well:
(https://i.imgur.com/0qWZzYh.png)
i love r5 baby
Post by: konstantin on Thu, 21 May 2020, 03:43:06
Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users. Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures
Thanks for checking the data yourself and taking the critical approach here — I appreciate it.
At the time of writing that post, the data I had to go off were the respondents' country numbers from the survey. Despite the fact that the total ended up being higher than the number of self-reported ISO users, I decided that this would be good enough, since it's not the exact numbers that matter, but rather the relative distribution between the different countries / national layouts. This is why at first I was reluctant to cite the precise numbers in the post and not just the percentages, but I decided to do so anyway exactly because I wanted others to be able to check my calculations.
In the meantime, I've tried to do my due diligence by reaching out to the author of the 2020 Megasurvey, /u/blockedbyte, to obtain the raw results of the survey. I wanted to do this so I could conduct a more precise analysis by taking into account just the countries/layouts of self-reported ISO users (the 293 you mentioned). However, I've yet to receive a response, and the other person who was involved in the survey, /u/dont_settle, said that they've also been unable to reach the author and get the raw data.
So I'm afraid that the best data we currently have is the country distribution, which is what I used in the post. I believe it to be representative nonetheless since, again, it's the ratios that matter. If I do get the more detailed data from the survey, I'll be sure to update my post accordingly. For the time being, I've edited out the potentially confusing wording about user numbers (thanks for pointing that out).Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .If you check the layouts I mentioned in the first footnote in that post again, all of them do in fact use either a R3 \| key or a R4 <> key. This is in line with what I said about them being partially supported, so my original statement is not incorrect.
I took issue with the misrepresentation of the figures and stating them as facts. There weren't even 503 self identified ISO users.
Of the 293 self-identified users, for all is known in the data, 100% of them could be UK/ISO or 100% of them could be FR AZERTY users.
I also take issue with you (and DeplotedVespene) instead of proposing options to give ALL ISO some compatibility in this thread and others, (E.g. requesting an extra key or side printing like old kits like GMK Muted or having R3 ~# and R4 <> (where 83% of users will have partial compatibility - your numbers (49% + 34%)). you propose to take away compatibility from others
Really liked this kit but will not be getting it if the only option is an R3 |\.
Also going to drop this now, as this is not an ISO discussion thread and any more would be disrespectful to the Designer
I apologize for diverting the thread again, but I felt that it would be worthwhile to close out this discussion on a meaningful note.
You'll be happy to hear that I've managed to obtained the raw data from the r/MK Megasurvey 2020 (thanks to the authors, u/blockedbyte and u/Stopped_Lurker). You can find the relevant figures, as well as a detailed analysis of the ISO user distribution, at the following link. I invite you to check the data for correctness.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vyY5EjTfzo6YXp_xwQYN_ffcoB0fXdNl8nc0WDteobs/edit?usp=sharing
As you can see, the data corroborates all of my original statements and assumptions from the post (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=90706.msg2894820#msg2894820). Not only that, but the number of actual, self-identified ISO users covered by R3 \|, R4 <> is even higher than was at first apparent: 56% (70% with US ISO) instead of 49%. Meanwhile, the number of ISO users covered by R3 #~, R4 \| actually went down from 34% to 19.5%.
On another note, I was surprised to see how many US ISO users there actually are out in the wild. It's a lot more than I thought. In fact, they're pretty much as common as German and UK users.
(https://i.imgur.com/GQbLzXh.png)
Post by: guzzi on Thu, 21 May 2020, 04:00:29
I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.Sorry to be a dumbass, but what's the issue in these photos? The keys in each look the same to me.
look closely at the pic of the enter keys, the symbol in enter key below is deformed
(Attachment Link)
GMK seems to have fixed issues regarding the icon mods. I got my GMK Missing Keys yesterday and the legends are fine again. Other people in the thread are happy as well
I have received information that GMK has shipped out the set and it has arrived at our European vendor. The set is looking good and does not seem to have the issues that GMK WOB/BOW icond mods had for example.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 21 May 2020, 08:39:00
This might be a long shot, but is there any chance R5 could be added to the RGB mods to make it compatible with LightningXI’s upcoming R5 Dolch?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106504.0
It's something to consider, although... while the kit is designed for many sets, I don't want to deter buyers from this GB with a pricey add-on.
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:02:11
Those numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users. Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures
Thanks for checking the data yourself and taking the critical approach here — I appreciate it.
At the time of writing that post, the data I had to go off were the respondents' country numbers from the survey. Despite the fact that the total ended up being higher than the number of self-reported ISO users, I decided that this would be good enough, since it's not the exact numbers that matter, but rather the relative distribution between the different countries / national layouts. This is why at first I was reluctant to cite the precise numbers in the post and not just the percentages, but I decided to do so anyway exactly because I wanted others to be able to check my calculations.
In the meantime, I've tried to do my due diligence by reaching out to the author of the 2020 Megasurvey, /u/blockedbyte, to obtain the raw results of the survey. I wanted to do this so I could conduct a more precise analysis by taking into account just the countries/layouts of self-reported ISO users (the 293 you mentioned). However, I've yet to receive a response, and the other person who was involved in the survey, /u/dont_settle, said that they've also been unable to reach the author and get the raw data.
So I'm afraid that the best data we currently have is the country distribution, which is what I used in the post. I believe it to be representative nonetheless since, again, it's the ratios that matter. If I do get the more detailed data from the survey, I'll be sure to update my post accordingly. For the time being, I've edited out the potentially confusing wording about user numbers (thanks for pointing that out).Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .If you check the layouts I mentioned in the first footnote in that post again, all of them do in fact use either a R3 \| key or a R4 <> key. This is in line with what I said about them being partially supported, so my original statement is not incorrect.
I took issue with the misrepresentation of the figures and stating them as facts. There weren't even 503 self identified ISO users.
Of the 293 self-identified users, for all is known in the data, 100% of them could be UK/ISO or 100% of them could be FR AZERTY users.
I also take issue with you (and DeplotedVespene) instead of proposing options to give ALL ISO some compatibility in this thread and others, (E.g. requesting an extra key or side printing like old kits like GMK Muted or having R3 ~# and R4 <> (where 83% of users will have partial compatibility - your numbers (49% + 34%)). you propose to take away compatibility from others
Really liked this kit but will not be getting it if the only option is an R3 |\.
Also going to drop this now, as this is not an ISO discussion thread and any more would be disrespectful to the Designer
I apologize for diverting the thread again, but I felt that it would be worthwhile to close out this discussion on a meaningful note.
You'll be happy to hear that I've managed to obtained the raw data from the r/MK Megasurvey 2020 (thanks to the authors, u/blockedbyte and u/Stopped_Lurker). You can find the relevant figures, as well as a detailed analysis of the ISO user distribution, at the following link. I invite you to check the data for correctness.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vyY5EjTfzo6YXp_xwQYN_ffcoB0fXdNl8nc0WDteobs/edit?usp=sharing
As you can see, the data corroborates all of my original statements and assumptions from the post (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=90706.msg2894820#msg2894820). Not only that, but the number of actual, self-identified ISO users covered by R3 \|, R4 <> is even higher than was at first apparent: 56% (70% with US ISO) instead of 49%. Meanwhile, the number of ISO users covered by R3 #~, R4 \| actually went down from 34% to 19.5%.
On another note, I was surprised to see how many US ISO users there actually are out in the wild. It's a lot more than I thought. In fact, they're pretty much as common as German and UK users.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/jdJhIob.png)
First, thank you for the info.
The main issue with how you presented the data is that a user's location does not indicate which layout they use.
For example, ISO users in Canada do not necessarily use a "Canadian" layout (they could be living abroad). Same goes for the US, obviously.
What I gather from this survey is that most ISO users (outside the US) are located in the UK, Germany, Sweden, the rest of the Scandinavian countries, and so on.
Besides, I rather go by recent group buy statistics than user location or layout. Because it's how many kits you think you will sell that dictates MOQ, not demographics directly.
Post by: ideus on Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:09:31
I copied here some examples of the pictures that show some of the issues. I hope that helps. The most concerning part of the problem is that GMK's did not acknowledge those issues as something that need to be fixed.Sorry to be a dumbass, but what's the issue in these photos? The keys in each look the same to me.
look closely at the pic of the enter keys, the symbol in enter key below is deformed
(Attachment Link)
GMK seems to have fixed issues regarding the icon mods. I got my GMK Missing Keys yesterday and the legends are fine again. Other people in the thread are happy as wellI have received information that GMK has shipped out the set and it has arrived at our European vendor. The set is looking good and does not seem to have the issues that GMK WOB/BOW icond mods had for example.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Right molds make good caps.
(https://i.imgur.com/w21P5WR.jpg)
Post by: godofdeath on Thu, 21 May 2020, 15:21:15
Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 21 May 2020, 15:53:24
F13 please
Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
Unlocked at 500 novelties sold! ;D
Post by: godofdeath on Thu, 21 May 2020, 20:26:26
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 21 May 2020, 21:28:27
wait why is the vertical enter key r2/r3 on the novelties?
Sorry... I'm not sure I understand your question.
Post by: godofdeath on Thu, 21 May 2020, 22:04:44
wait why is the vertical enter key r2/r3 on the novelties?
Sorry... I'm not sure I understand your question.
Sorry I meant accent kit, looked up saw novelty typed novelty.
Render of accent kit shows vertical enter key for numpad as r2/r3, it would be r4 right?
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 21 May 2020, 22:07:06
wait why is the vertical enter key r2/r3 on the novelties?
Sorry... I'm not sure I understand your question.
Sorry I meant accent kit, looked up saw novelty typed novelty.
Render of accent kit shows vertical enter key for numpad as r2/r3, it would be r4 right?
You're right! I will correct it tomorrow. Thanks
Post by: dvorcol on Thu, 21 May 2020, 22:42:18
MoreThose numbers in your post don't add up. In the Imgur link there is only 293 ISO users. Yet somehow your numbers state "244 out of 503 surveyed ISO ...etc etc"
Even taking your numbers at face value.
Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .Yet, it is taking a key away from the UK ISO users which is " 173 out of 503 surveyed ISO users, or 34%." - your figures
Thanks for checking the data yourself and taking the critical approach here — I appreciate it.
At the time of writing that post, the data I had to go off were the respondents' country numbers from the survey. Despite the fact that the total ended up being higher than the number of self-reported ISO users, I decided that this would be good enough, since it's not the exact numbers that matter, but rather the relative distribution between the different countries / national layouts. This is why at first I was reluctant to cite the precise numbers in the post and not just the percentages, but I decided to do so anyway exactly because I wanted others to be able to check my calculations.
In the meantime, I've tried to do my due diligence by reaching out to the author of the 2020 Megasurvey, /u/blockedbyte, to obtain the raw results of the survey. I wanted to do this so I could conduct a more precise analysis by taking into account just the countries/layouts of self-reported ISO users (the 293 you mentioned). However, I've yet to receive a response, and the other person who was involved in the survey, /u/dont_settle, said that they've also been unable to reach the author and get the raw data.
So I'm afraid that the best data we currently have is the country distribution, which is what I used in the post. I believe it to be representative nonetheless since, again, it's the ratios that matter. If I do get the more detailed data from the survey, I'll be sure to update my post accordingly. For the time being, I've edited out the potentially confusing wording about user numbers (thanks for pointing that out).Majority, if not all ISO layouts you've stated does not use an R3 |\ .If you check the layouts I mentioned in the first footnote in that post again, all of them do in fact use either a R3 \| key or a R4 <> key. This is in line with what I said about them being partially supported, so my original statement is not incorrect.
I took issue with the misrepresentation of the figures and stating them as facts. There weren't even 503 self identified ISO users.
Of the 293 self-identified users, for all is known in the data, 100% of them could be UK/ISO or 100% of them could be FR AZERTY users.
I also take issue with you (and DeplotedVespene) instead of proposing options to give ALL ISO some compatibility in this thread and others, (E.g. requesting an extra key or side printing like old kits like GMK Muted or having R3 ~# and R4 <> (where 83% of users will have partial compatibility - your numbers (49% + 34%)). you propose to take away compatibility from others
Really liked this kit but will not be getting it if the only option is an R3 |\.
Also going to drop this now, as this is not an ISO discussion thread and any more would be disrespectful to the Designer
I apologize for diverting the thread again, but I felt that it would be worthwhile to close out this discussion on a meaningful note.
You'll be happy to hear that I've managed to obtained the raw data from the r/MK Megasurvey 2020 (thanks to the authors, u/blockedbyte and u/Stopped_Lurker). You can find the relevant figures, as well as a detailed analysis of the ISO user distribution, at the following link. I invite you to check the data for correctness.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vyY5EjTfzo6YXp_xwQYN_ffcoB0fXdNl8nc0WDteobs/edit?usp=sharing
As you can see, the data corroborates all of my original statements and assumptions from the post (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=90706.msg2894820#msg2894820). Not only that, but the number of actual, self-identified ISO users covered by R3 \|, R4 <> is even higher than was at first apparent: 56% (70% with US ISO) instead of 49%. Meanwhile, the number of ISO users covered by R3 #~, R4 \| actually went down from 34% to 19.5%.
On another note, I was surprised to see how many US ISO users there actually are out in the wild. It's a lot more than I thought. In fact, they're pretty much as common as German and UK users.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/jdJhIob.png)
First, thank you for the info.
The main issue with how you presented the data is that a user's location does not indicate which layout they use.
For example, ISO users in Canada do not necessarily use a "Canadian" layout (they could be living abroad). Same goes for the US, obviously.
What I gather from this survey is that most ISO users (outside the US) are located in the UK, Germany, Sweden, the rest of the Scandinavian countries, and so on.
Besides, I rather go by recent group buy statistics than user location or layout. Because it's how many kits you think you will sell that dictates MOQ, not demographics directly.
About nine months ago I summarized Base kit ISO coverage in 28 different GMK group buys. You can see a table of my findings in GMK Cafe's IC. (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100820.msg2803387#msg2803387)
I was looking for these 10 keys, trying to get a feeling for bare-bones ISO support. Perhaps a few other supporting keycaps were there and I just wasn't looking for them. For example 1.75u shift.
(https://i.imgur.com/czrhvzD.png)
Post by: konstantin on Fri, 22 May 2020, 06:20:38
First, thank you for the info.
The main issue with how you presented the data is that a user's location does not indicate which layout they use.
For example, ISO users in Canada do not necessarily use a "Canadian" layout (they could be living abroad). Same goes for the US, obviously.
What I gather from this survey is that most ISO users (outside the US) are located in the UK, Germany, Sweden, the rest of the Scandinavian countries, and so on.
Besides, I rather go by recent group buy statistics than user location or layout. Because it's how many kits you think you will sell that dictates MOQ, not demographics directly.
Thank you for the feedback.
The country/layout breakdown should be taken at face value, because the dataset we have access to (as large as it is, with 1900 responses) didn't have a specific question for layout variants. Оf course, you're free to interpret the data however you like, and you're certainly correct that there isn't a 1:1 correspondence between a user's country of residence and the layout that they use. However, I don't think this makes any considerable impact on the result and conclusions of the analysis.
The important takeaway of the layout part of the analysis is that R3 \|, R4 <> seems to be the better option by a large margin, even when taking into account the potential discrepancy between location and layout (which almost certainly does exist). And, honestly, choosing to ignore the remaining data because of that discrepancy seems like intentionally choosing not to see the forest for the trees.
But let's give you the benefit of the doubt and consider a near worst-case scenario, where what you said is truer to a much larger degree than it is IRL. I'll primarily use the US as an example, since I think we can all agree that it's the most unexpected result, and there's a lot of expats living in the US (more than in any other country from the list). A lot of those expats are yellow-group-layout users to boot: there's a total of around 50–60 million Brits, Brazilians and others living in the US, Canada and Australia. Even if you take all of the surveyed ISO users in the US, remove them from the green pile, and add them to the yellow pile together with users from Canada and Australia, it's still not nearly as large enough as the remaining users in the green group (it comes out to 56% vs 35% in favor of R3 \|, R4 <>). This is a near worst-case scenario, because we're assuming that none of the self-reported ISO users in the US use a US ISO layout, and that all of them instead fall into the R3 #~, R4 \| category. Even then, R3 \|, R4 <> wins out by a considerable margin, which is pretty conclusive in my opinion.
The point is that the way it's been done in a lot of past group buys (usually R3 #~, R4 \| or R3 \|, R4 \|) is not perfect, and actual user data seems to back that up beyond any reasonable margin of error.
Just because something has been done a certain way in the past, doesn't mean that way is good. If that weren't the case, we would still be using Windows logos in all GMK sets. Change is good.
P.S. Unless the same set is run twice, each time with a different option for the ISO keys (but otherwise staying largely the same), looking at GB sales as an indicator for this doesn't mean much, since different sets/colorways enjoy different levels of popularity (and even the same set running at different times of the year, or at different points during the community's growth).
Post by: ideus on Fri, 22 May 2020, 08:00:02
Post by: voodoo6k on Fri, 22 May 2020, 08:32:34
First, thank you for the info.
The main issue with how you presented the data is that a user's location does not indicate which layout they use.
For example, ISO users in Canada do not necessarily use a "Canadian" layout (they could be living abroad). Same goes for the US, obviously.
What I gather from this survey is that most ISO users (outside the US) are located in the UK, Germany, Sweden, the rest of the Scandinavian countries, and so on.
Besides, I rather go by recent group buy statistics than user location or layout. Because it's how many kits you think you will sell that dictates MOQ, not demographics directly.
Thank you for the feedback.
The country/layout breakdown should be taken at face value, because the dataset we have access to (as large as it is, with 1900 responses) didn't have a specific question for layout variants. Оf course, you're free to interpret the data however you like, and you're certainly correct that there isn't a 1:1 correspondence between a user's country of residence and the layout that they use. However, I don't think this makes any considerable impact on the result and conclusions of the analysis.
[...]
Just because something has been done a certain way in the past, doesn't mean that way is good. If that weren't the case, we would still be using Windows logos in all GMK sets. Change is good.
P.S. Unless the same set is run twice, each time with a different option for the ISO keys (but otherwise staying largely the same), looking at GB sales as an indicator for this doesn't mean much, since different sets/colorways enjoy different levels of popularity (and even the same set running at different times of the year, or at different points during the community's growth).
I may have been unclear. When I look at past group buy statistics, I mean the number of ISO and international kit sales relative to base set or alphas.
ISO layouts are so many and so diverse that there is no a cheap alternative to really offer any reasonable coverage. The UK layout is a US layout variantion with an ISO enter; but, it is not representative of ISO variants so please do not call it ISO. Its keys do not match any other European layout.
You're right and I will change the title from "Icon mods / ISO" kit to "Icon mods / ISO-UK".
Post by: depletedvespene on Fri, 22 May 2020, 10:12:10
ISO layouts are so many and so diverse that there is no a cheap alternative to really offer any reasonable coverage. The UK layout is a US layout variantion with an ISO enter; but, it is not representative of ISO variants so please do not call it ISO. Its keys do not match any other European layout.
You're making the same mistake of conflating a physical layout variant ("ISO" as opposed to "ANSI") with a national layout ("English (UK)") that whoever may call it (plain) "ISO". This is why it's much better to be a bit pedant and say "English (UK) over ISO", "English (US) over ANSI", etcetera.
Post by: voodoo6k on Fri, 22 May 2020, 12:02:55
To help keep this thread on topic, I will ask those interested to please start a new thread about ISO layouts/kits/naming conventions, etc.
I will take into consideration all the suggestions that were made, but further discussion is unlikely to influence the kits for this group buy.
Thanks! ;)
Post by: wil on Fri, 22 May 2020, 13:44:57
Post by: PlastikSchnittstelle on Fri, 22 May 2020, 13:47:22
Post by: wil on Fri, 22 May 2020, 14:03:48
I though GMK does not have a 3U sb mold, right? I would be happy to hear that Im wrong.
they do. og spacebars round 2 and minimall will be running kits with 3u spacebars
Post by: PlastikSchnittstelle on Fri, 22 May 2020, 14:09:08
I like small spacebar builds.
Post by: voodoo6k on Fri, 22 May 2020, 14:22:00
Post by: wil on Fri, 22 May 2020, 14:58:20
This set already has a 3u spacebar in the Minila kit. That kit will soon become an Extension for all exotic 60% (Minila, split, Yoda, etc.)
apologies! my eyes glossed over that kit. still would love to see 3u in the accent color that's in the regular spacebar kit
Post by: voodoo6k on Fri, 22 May 2020, 16:43:09
This set already has a 3u spacebar in the Minila kit. That kit will soon become an Extension for all exotic 60% (Minila, split, Yoda, etc.)
apologies! my eyes glossed over that kit. still would love to see 3u in the accent color that's in the regular spacebar kit
No problem. It's actually quite helpful to see everyone's first reactions. As we put more and more time into a group buy, it's easy to lose touch with how it comes off.
I would like to see spacebars of every sizes in both black and blue colours, but we always prioritize the alpha colour when a choice must be made.
Post by: LXVRGS on Fri, 22 May 2020, 20:00:45
Post by: beyonddc on Sat, 23 May 2020, 15:43:08
Post by: ideus on Sat, 23 May 2020, 20:23:06
ISO:
To help keep this thread on topic, I will ask those interested to please start a new thread about ISO layouts/kits/naming conventions, etc.
I will take into consideration all the suggestions that were made, but further discussion is unlikely to influence the kits for this group buy.
Thanks! ;)
Constant bumps are always a good thing for a IC thread. Even if they come at the cost of some off-topic posts, let the people free off some tension out of the quarantine. :p
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 24 May 2020, 12:58:33
(https://i.imgur.com/3zoREjH.jpg)
This hypothetical kit is more of a 60% extension (Split SB/BS, Minila, Yoda, Alice). I'm in contact with TEX to see whether they could machine the GHB keys for Yoda (buyers would opt in or out).
Windowed keys could be nice... open to suggestions.
Post by: CustomerSupport on Tue, 26 May 2020, 20:43:18
Post by: IBMweMissU on Wed, 27 May 2020, 05:53:28
I haven't published it yet, but Minila->Extension:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/3zoREjH.jpg)
This hypothetical kit is more of a 60% extension (Split SB/BS, Minila, Yoda, Alice). I'm in contact with TEX to see whether they could machine the GHB keys for Yoda (buyers would opt in or out).
Windowed keys could be nice... open to suggestions.
If Tex can support with machined GHB for Yoda/Shinobi, it'd be excellent! This is just getting better and better!
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 27 May 2020, 09:31:09
I haven't published it yet, but Minila->Extension:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/3zoREjH.jpg)
This hypothetical kit is more of a 60% extension (Split SB/BS, Minila, Yoda, Alice). I'm in contact with TEX to see whether they could machine the GHB keys for Yoda (buyers would opt in or out).
Windowed keys could be nice... open to suggestions.
If Tex can support with machined GHB for Yoda/Shinobi, it'd be excellent! This is just getting better and better!
Yoda and Kodachi only. Shinobi uses 0.75u keys so most if not all aftermarket keysets won't fit.
Post by: fatpolomanjr on Thu, 28 May 2020, 02:09:51
I mentioned earlier in this thread that I've already cut and grinded some WoB cherry doubleshots of my own, so it doesn't really affect me that much either way.
Post by: IBMweMissU on Thu, 28 May 2020, 02:30:37
I haven't published it yet, but Minila->Extension:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/3zoREjH.jpg)
This hypothetical kit is more of a 60% extension (Split SB/BS, Minila, Yoda, Alice). I'm in contact with TEX to see whether they could machine the GHB keys for Yoda (buyers would opt in or out).
Windowed keys could be nice... open to suggestions.
If Tex can support with machined GHB for Yoda/Shinobi, it'd be excellent! This is just getting better and better!
Yoda and Kodachi only. Shinobi uses 0.75u keys so most if not all aftermarket keysets won't fit.
Yes, I know that the top 0.75u row won't be supported, but the rest could be, so machined GHB (additional) would be nice.
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 28 May 2020, 08:18:37
I haven't published it yet, but Minila->Extension:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/3zoREjH.jpg)
This hypothetical kit is more of a 60% extension (Split SB/BS, Minila, Yoda, Alice). I'm in contact with TEX to see whether they could machine the GHB keys for Yoda (buyers would opt in or out).
Windowed keys could be nice... open to suggestions.
If Tex can support with machined GHB for Yoda/Shinobi, it'd be excellent! This is just getting better and better!
Yoda and Kodachi only. Shinobi uses 0.75u keys so most if not all aftermarket keysets won't fit.
Yes, I know that the top 0.75u row won't be supported, but the rest could be, so machined GHB (additional) would be nice.
Sounds good
When you say Opt-In for machine punched GHB keys, do we get two sets of GHB for an increase in cost, or is it the one set gets punched? For reference, TEX included two sets of keys for their custom Yoda keyset. You're not TEX, obviously, but it helps to know, for planning purposes.
I mentioned earlier in this thread that I've already cut and grinded some WoB cherry doubleshots of my own, so it doesn't really affect me that much either way.
You either get the Extension kit with regular GHB keys as shown above, or opt in to the Extension kit with machined GHB keys. We will send them to TEX in one batch, TEX sends it back to us and we relay them to the buyers, probably a few weeks later (or something along those lines). We haven't worked how much it would cost yet.
TEX is very busy right now with the Shinobi production.
Post by: nu_types on Fri, 29 May 2020, 00:14:29
Post by: ideus on Fri, 29 May 2020, 08:39:35
I realized this set won't work for the shinobi, even with the custom ghb keys. The arrow keys do not have standard key spacing so custom molds would be needed. These keys would only be useful for Yoda owners, and maybe kodachi owners.
Shinobi requires special keys for the arrows. No set would fit it. Not only this.
You can always keep the stock special keys and replace the others. Enjoy being special.
Post by: voodoo6k on Fri, 29 May 2020, 08:46:24
Post by: nu_types on Fri, 29 May 2020, 10:33:52
I realized this set won't work for the shinobi, even with the custom ghb keys. The arrow keys do not have standard key spacing so custom molds would be needed. These keys would only be useful for Yoda owners, and maybe kodachi owners.
Shinobi requires special keys for the arrows. No set would fit it. Not only this.
You can always keep the stock special keys and replace the others. Enjoy being special.
Lol I just mentioned that since people have mentioned the shinobi specifically. Didn't mean to imply that I had the expectation that this set would be compatible. Gear down a bit there bud.
Edit: to be fair I did mention the shinobi early on not realizing that the arrow keys are not standard 1u.
Post by: Lenux on Fri, 29 May 2020, 11:14:37
I think it's my second choice if i can't get my hand on the other keycap set !
Hope it happens ;)
Post by: equalunique on Fri, 29 May 2020, 11:44:05
The Shinobi's GHB keys also have a lot more plastic cut out from the bottom compared to the Yoda. Can't comment on the Kodachi, but since I've got the Shinobi on hand so I can confirm about that. The 4.5u spacebar is also a problem - I don't believe GMK makes one, but kits for JIS-layout Filco boards do contain them.I realized this set won't work for the shinobi, even with the custom ghb keys. The arrow keys do not have standard key spacing so custom molds would be needed. These keys would only be useful for Yoda owners, and maybe kodachi owners.
Shinobi requires special keys for the arrows. No set would fit it. Not only this.
You can always keep the stock special keys and replace the others. Enjoy being special.
Lol I just mentioned that since people have mentioned the shinobi specifically. Didn't mean to imply that I had the expectation that this set would be compatible. Gear down a bit there bud.
Edit: to be fair I did mention the shinobi early on not realizing that the arrow keys are not standard 1u.
Post by: ideus on Fri, 29 May 2020, 15:20:04
I realized this set won't work for the shinobi, even with the custom ghb keys. The arrow keys do not have standard key spacing so custom molds would be needed. These keys would only be useful for Yoda owners, and maybe kodachi owners.
Shinobi requires special keys for the arrows. No set would fit it. Not only this.
You can always keep the stock special keys and replace the others. Enjoy being special.
Lol I just mentioned that since people have mentioned the shinobi specifically. Didn't mean to imply that I had the expectation that this set would be compatible. Gear down a bit there bud.
Edit: to be fair I did mention the shinobi early on not realizing that the arrow keys are not standard 1u.
Sorry bud. I was not trying to make you feel bad. Your comment's wording reads as if the lack of compatibility of this set with your specialty board comes as a surprise. While it is exactly the opposite. You should expect most sets not being compatible with your board. If any that would be a surprise. :thumb:
Post by: shawkes on Sat, 30 May 2020, 20:58:33
I haven't published it yet, but Minila->Extension:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/3zoREjH.jpg)
This hypothetical kit is more of a 60% extension (Split SB/BS, Minila, Yoda, Alice). I'm in contact with TEX to see whether they could machine the GHB keys for Yoda (buyers would opt in or out).
Windowed keys could be nice... open to suggestions.
If Tex can support with machined GHB for Yoda/Shinobi, it'd be excellent! This is just getting better and better!
Yoda and Kodachi only. Shinobi uses 0.75u keys so most if not all aftermarket keysets won't fit.
Unfortunately, Kodachi won't work either. Only Yoda. Kodachi also has the dramatic cutout under the GHB keys. (Unless TEX is able to machine those for you I suppose)
Post by: voodoo6k on Sat, 30 May 2020, 21:33:51
I haven't published it yet, but Minila->Extension:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/3zoREjH.jpg)
This hypothetical kit is more of a 60% extension (Split SB/BS, Minila, Yoda, Alice). I'm in contact with TEX to see whether they could machine the GHB keys for Yoda (buyers would opt in or out).
Windowed keys could be nice... open to suggestions.
If Tex can support with machined GHB for Yoda/Shinobi, it'd be excellent! This is just getting better and better!
Yoda and Kodachi only. Shinobi uses 0.75u keys so most if not all aftermarket keysets won't fit.
Unfortunately, Kodachi won't work either. Only Yoda. Kodachi also has the dramatic cutout under the GHB keys. (Unless TEX is able to machine those for you I suppose)
Yes, thank you for pointing that out.
Post by: m1gs on Wed, 10 June 2020, 01:01:40
Post by: westway on Wed, 10 June 2020, 04:17:13
This might be a long shot, but is there any chance R5 could be added to the RGB mods to make it compatible with LightningXI’s upcoming R5 Dolch?I second this. It would be great!
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106504.0
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 10 June 2020, 09:29:22
This might be a long shot, but is there any chance R5 could be added to the RGB mods to make it compatible with LightningXI’s upcoming R5 Dolch?I second this. It would be great!
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106504.0
I can look into it, but doubtful at this point.
I know it's not what you're asking, but note that you can convert Dolch R5 to R4 with Thinkcaps Icons + RGB mods.
is there a timeline for this?
It's literally taking weeks at a time for every email from GMK, and months to get a quote. I'm still waiting for a response on an updated version of the kits.
As far as I'm concerned, the timeline is as soon as possible. Probably Q3/Q4, at this pace.
Post by: shawkes on Fri, 12 June 2020, 20:03:44
Quote
It's literally taking weeks at a time for every email from GMK, and months to get a quote. I'm still waiting for a response on an updated version of the kits.
As far as I'm concerned, the timeline is as soon as possible. Probably Q3/Q4, at this pace.
Thank you for continuing to push this forward.
Post by: paperassgasket on Tue, 16 June 2020, 10:29:30
Voted on Drop and I'm sharing it around the internets in the hope it drums up some more interest.
Post by: voodoo6k on Tue, 16 June 2020, 12:07:51
This is a great lookin set.
Voted on Drop and I'm sharing it around the internets in the hope it drums up some more interest.
Appreciated! :thumb:
I will ramp things up once the new kits are approved. (I don't think I could be any more patient with GMK in this regard...)
Moving forward, one thing we will need to emphasize is the compatibility with special keyboards such as the Yoda, Minila, etc. and the cross compatibility of some kits (Icons, RGB, Accent) with other GMK sets.
Post by: voodoo6k on Fri, 26 June 2020, 11:22:50
(https://i.imgur.com/bpNKwOG.jpg)
- ISO support
- 2.25u, 2u Shifts moved to Extension kit
(https://i.imgur.com/9j9XLx1.jpg)
- Standalone orthogonal and 40% set
- Icon mods for 40%, text for ortho
- 250 MOQ
(https://i.imgur.com/3zoREjH.jpg)
- Support for Yoda II, Minila, FC660M
- Opt-in "G H B" cut-out keys for TEX boards
- Extra (CR) minibars for your ortho/40%/split SB
(https://i.imgur.com/0RnQ2Ji.jpg)
- Added minibars in blue
(https://i.imgur.com/vQoK481.jpg)
- We can add a few more keys
Post by: IBMweMissU on Sat, 27 June 2020, 06:44:29
:(
Bring em back. At least maybe one R4 1.25u "Think"?
Post by: voodoo6k on Sat, 27 June 2020, 07:43:06
You deleted the red dot caps ? AND the "Think" novelties? Loved those.
:(
Bring em back. At least maybe one R4 1.25u "Think"?
No! These are just the kits that changed. Please refer to the OP (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.0#post_kits) for all the kits. :))
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 28 June 2020, 12:38:03
Novelties look like they are going to be around $40~45 as shown (250 MOQ). That's a bit expensive/high MOQ for my taste.
Do people really care about the highlighted keys?
(https://i.imgur.com/fQPYfcX.png)
I like the dots on the bottom row, personally. Not sure if anybody else wants them...
Post by: BloodyMarvel on Sun, 28 June 2020, 12:53:59
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 28 June 2020, 12:55:12
I'm really only interested in the top row. The rest not so much.
Top row dots or media keys?
Post by: BloodyMarvel on Sun, 28 June 2020, 13:12:25
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 28 June 2020, 13:31:48
Media keys...
Perfect. Thanks
Post by: konstantin on Sun, 28 June 2020, 21:00:32
- 1.5u Code keys added to the Extension kit. This would allow users to cover Mac and OG HHKB bottom rows with text mods rather than having to use (and buy) icon mods. It would also validate the inclusion of a second 1u Alt key in Base rather than the Icon mods kit (which is where the only 1.5u OS keys currently are).
- Is the second 1u space key in the Extension kit necessary? It isn't for regular split spacebar boards, nor for ortho/40%, and it doesn't seem to be necessary for the exotic 60% boards you listed, either.
- The 1.75u accent space in the spacebars kit isn't necessary, seeing as that key is only used on three 40% boards (Vortex Core, JD40) and is already included in the Ortho & 40's kit.
- The second 1.25u accent space isn't warranted either, in my opinion, seeing how fairly rare the board that uses it is, and the fact that two 1.25u space keys are already included in Extension.
- It'd be better to include an accent 1u space instead of 1.75u and the second 1.25u, as that key would be more useful for more boards.
So we finally got the quote from GMK. You can see the updated kits above and in the OP (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.0#post_kits).I'd say drop them.
Novelties look like they are going to be around $40~45 as shown (250 MOQ). That's a bit expensive/high MOQ for my taste.
Do people really care about the highlighted keys?Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/fQPYfcX.png)
I like the dots on the bottom row, personally. Not sure if anybody else wants them...
P.S. The board renders are showing vertically centered Caps and Shift icon mods, whereas the kits only include OG top-left aligned mods.
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 28 June 2020, 21:32:06
I like the new kitting, I can see that some thought has gone into it, and it looks well put together. I'd like to suggest a few further potential improvements:
- 1.5u Code keys added to the Extension kit. This would allow users to cover Mac and OG HHKB bottom rows with text mods rather than having to use icon mods. It would also validate the inclusion of the second 1u Alt key in base rather than the Icon mods kit (which is where the only 1.5u OS keys currently are).
- Is the second 1u space key in the Extension kit necessary? It isn't for regular split spacebar boards, nor for ortho/40%, and it doesn't seem to be necessary for the exotic 60% boards you listed, either.
- The 1.75u accent space in the spacebars kit isn't necessary, seeing as that key is only used on three 40% boards (Vortex Core, Daisy, JD40) and is already included in the Ortho & 40's kit.
- The second 1.25u accent space isn't warranted either, in my opinion, seeing how fairly rare the board that uses it is, and the fact that two 1.25u space keys are already included elsewhere.
- It'd be better to include an accent 1u space instead of 1.75u and the second 1.25u, as that key would be more useful for more boards.
So we finally got the quote from GMK. You can see the updated kits above and in the OP (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.0#post_kits).I'd say drop them.
Novelties look like they are going to be around $40~45 as shown (250 MOQ). That's a bit expensive/high MOQ for my taste.
Do people really care about the highlighted keys?Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/fQPYfcX.png)
I like the dots on the bottom row, personally. Not sure if anybody else wants them...
P.S. The board renders are showing vertically centered Caps and Shift icon mods, whereas the kits only include OG top-left aligned mods.
Thanks. I will unpack this tomorrow.
As for the renders showing centered icons, they are an early version and they are wrong; The icons will be Cherry style like in the kit renders.
Cheers
Post by: konstantin on Sun, 28 June 2020, 21:57:37
Thanks. I will unpack this tomorrow.
As for the renders showing centered icons, they are an early version and they are wrong; The icons will be Cherry style like in the kit renders.
Cheers
:thumb:
Post by: fatpolomanjr on Sun, 28 June 2020, 22:22:32
Post by: msv on Sun, 28 June 2020, 23:02:09
So we finally got the quote from GMK. You can see the updated kits above and in the OP (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.0#post_kits).
Novelties look like they are going to be around $40~45 as shown (250 MOQ). That's a bit expensive/high MOQ for my taste.
Do people really care about the highlighted keys?Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/fQPYfcX.png)
I like the dots on the bottom row, personally. Not sure if anybody else wants them...
Interested in the media keys, would like the red dot, but okay to lose the highlighted keys if it means a more friendly price.
Post by: Pylon on Mon, 29 June 2020, 04:11:29
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 29 June 2020, 09:25:26
I think a good compromise would be to scrap the 3 extra R1 dots, Hack key, and leave the R4 dots.
Post by: LightningXI on Mon, 29 June 2020, 09:42:46
I'm glad people like the media keys! :D
I think a good compromise would be to scrap the 3 extra R1 dots, Hack key, and leave the R4 dots.
I would keep at least two R4 dots in the modifier color for 7u bottom row setups (winkey), so that's a good compromise imo
Post by: Ensaum on Mon, 29 June 2020, 12:17:56
Post by: IBMweMissU on Mon, 29 June 2020, 14:02:07
You deleted the red dot caps ? AND the "Think" novelties? Loved those.
:(
Bring em back. At least maybe one R4 1.25u "Think"?
No! These are just the kits that changed. Please refer to the OP (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.0#post_kits) for all the kits. :))
Ah, I misunderstood, thanks for clearing that up.
WRT your highlighted keys, I add my vote to drop them if it reduces price.
Any news on Tex's involvement? And likely GB date?
Post by: voodoo6k on Tue, 30 June 2020, 09:54:10
Can I get a F13 key?
FYI
(https://i.imgur.com/p92FDp7.png)
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106504.0
PS. This is also where you get your N9 windowed keys. Scroll is Scroll but no set is perfect :)
Post by: voodoo6k on Tue, 30 June 2020, 15:49:14
You deleted the red dot caps ? AND the "Think" novelties? Loved those.
:(
Bring em back. At least maybe one R4 1.25u "Think"?
No! These are just the kits that changed. Please refer to the OP (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.0#post_kits) for all the kits. :))
Ah, I misunderstood, thanks for clearing that up.
WRT your highlighted keys, I add my vote to drop them if it reduces price.
Any news on Tex's involvement? And likely GB date?
Working on it.
If you're going to add keys to the accent pack, I'd like to throw in my vote for black media keys and blue function keys again :D
It's going to be more like this, to better emulate the actual Thinkpad Fn key:
(https://i.imgur.com/FndCbd0.jpg)
The blue legend is kind of dark, but we haven't found a better solution (Thinkpad keys are pad printed in a lighter colour).
Post by: fatpolomanjr on Tue, 30 June 2020, 16:17:10
It's going to be more like this, to better emulate the actual Thinkpad Fn key:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/FndCbd0.jpg)
The blue legend is kind of dark, but we haven't found a better solution (Thinkpad keys are pad printed in a lighter colour).
Well now why'd you have to go and fix the Fn key. Now I'm buying an accent kit. Next we'll have a space bar with the super zoom icon and top row fn keys with lock/battery/sleep/brightness/thinklight sublegends. :D
Post by: voodoo6k on Tue, 30 June 2020, 18:38:03
It's going to be more like this, to better emulate the actual Thinkpad Fn key:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/FndCbd0.jpg)
The blue legend is kind of dark, but we haven't found a better solution (Thinkpad keys are pad printed in a lighter colour).
Well now why'd you have to go and fix the Fn key. Now I'm buying an accent kit. Next we'll have a space bar with the super zoom icon and top row fn keys with lock/battery/sleep/brightness/thinklight sublegends. :D
Nah, don't worry. Voted budget of 22 fiddy can accommodate a couple more keys, in line with GMK Think:
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=104384.0;attach=234349;image)
The icon and icon+text numpad Enters are a good candidate (replacing text-only). Unless someone has a better idea.
That being said, I don't wanna get too wild; or duplicate things from other kits. At first, I wanted to do pad printed keys, but I'm probably alone in that. Vim keys could be cool.
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 01 July 2020, 09:12:45
I like the new kitting, I can see that some thought has gone into it, and it looks well put together. I'd like to suggest a few further potential improvements:
- 1.5u Code keys added to the Extension kit. This would allow users to cover Mac and OG HHKB bottom rows with text mods rather than having to use (and buy) icon mods. It would also validate the inclusion of a second 1u Alt key in Base rather than the Icon mods kit (which is where the only 1.5u OS keys currently are).
Yes, it's one of the things I would add. As you know, I'm not a huge fan of "Code". "System" is probably better (Mito is not fully committed to it in the new Laser!). Second 1u Alt is motivated by the Meta keys (diamond) in Icon mods. It's only one key and it wouldn't make sense to put it with the icons, therefore this is the most logical place. The Meta keys wouldn't necessarily be out of place with otherwise text+icon mods, imo.
Extension kits are not very popular. I have seen too many Alice boards without proper spacebars (when they were available in the extension kit). Hence putting only the necessary keys in there.
Quote
- Is the second 1u space key in the Extension kit necessary? It isn't for regular split spacebar boards, nor for ortho/40%, and it doesn't seem to be necessary for the exotic 60% boards you listed, either.
They should come in pair. It is in fact for ortho, as is the 3u and extra 2u. It's cheap.
Quote
- The 1.75u accent space in the spacebars kit isn't necessary, seeing as that key is only used on three 40% boards (Vortex Core, Daisy, JD40) and is already included in the Ortho & 40's kit.
Some boards have used two 1.75u spacebars (JD45). I see it more as an accent for Vortex Core.
Quote
- The second 1.25u accent space isn't warranted either, in my opinion, seeing how fairly rare the board that uses it is, and the fact that two 1.25u space keys are already included in Extension.
Since there are no 1.5u spacebars (Atreus, etc.), these can serve as replacements. Also Minila has two convex 1.25u.
Quote
- It'd be better to include an accent 1u space instead of 1.75u and the second 1.25u, as that key would be more useful for more boards.
They're already included in the ortho set. Is there any non-ortho-40's board that could make use of them (convex 1u)?
Post by: konstantin on Wed, 01 July 2020, 10:20:21
Yes, it's one of the things I would add. As you know, I'm not a huge fan of "Code". "System" is probably better (Mito is not fully committed to it in the new Laser!). Second 1u Alt is motivated by the Meta keys (diamond) in Icon mods. It's only one key and it wouldn't make sense to put it with the icons, therefore this is the most logical place. The Meta keys wouldn't necessarily be out of place with otherwise text+icon mods, imo.
Extension kits are not very popular. I have seen too many Alice boards without proper spacebars (when they were available in the extension kit). Hence putting only the necessary keys in there.
As someone who very much dislikes Code for a number of reasons (outlined here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=101960.msg2803194#msg2803194) and here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=104460.msg2870032#msg2870032)), I support changing all Code legends to System/Sys or Super. In that case, my proposition would be to add two 1.5u System or Super keys to the Extension kit, not Code. (By the way, 1u Sys in GMK Laser R2 was changed to Code for a different reason.)
As I said, I agree with the placement of the second 1u Alt in the base kit, if text 1.5u System/Super keys are added to the Extension kit to make it more purposeful. Otherwise, the second 1u Alt is useful if and only if the Icon Mods kit is purchased. It shouldn't make a big difference anyway since it's just one key, but I'm sure text 1.5u OS keys would be appreciated by a number of users (mostly Mac users, but also those who prefer OG HHKB key positions).
Regarding “necessary” keys, 1.5u OS keys are definitely more popular than the second 2.25u Shift currently present in the Extension kit, which is only used on 660 keyboards (of which there aren't that many, whereas any keyboard with a Tsangan/HHKB bottom row can use 1.5u OS keys). If you only count Western audiences, they are more popular than 2u Shift, 1u Shift, 1u Delete as well.
They should come in pair. It is in fact for ortho, as is the 3u and extra 2u. It's cheap.
Well, I think there is no point in including the second 1u for ortho in the Extension kit because two of them are already present in the Ortho & 40's kit. If you have ever seen an ortho keyboard with four convex 1u space keys, please link it so I can take note :D Otherwise, the second one can be removed from the Extension kit.
Besides that, 1u, 2u and 3u space keys are also used on regular ≥60% boards (most Alice-style boards, some ≥60% splits, Minila), so they serve a purpose outside of being just additional ortho compatibility.
Some boards have used two 1.75u spacebars (JD45). I see it more as an accent for Vortex Core.
JD45 falls under the same category as the JD40 that I mentioned (which also uses 2× 1.75u). If you want to count it separately, that still makes it only four keyboards in total that use a 1.75u spacebar, none of which are very popular, not even Vortex Core. It's fine if you want to keep it, but consider whether it's objectively common enough to warrant that (and also keep in mind that one 1.75u is already present in the Ortho & 40's kit).
Since there are no 1.5u spacebars (Atreus, etc.), these can serve as replacements. Also Minila has two convex 1.25u.
Again, two 1.25u space keys are already included in the Extension kit, which you have to buy in order to get Minila support anyway :) No need to duplicate them in the Spacebars kit (that was the point of my comment). Also, Atreus uses two 1.25u/1.5u spacebars, not four, so the Extension kit on its own will be enough for that as well.
They're already included in the ortho set. Is there any non-ortho-40's board that could make use of them (convex 1u)?
Yes, convex 1u is useful for most Alice-style ergo boards (Alice, Lubrigante, Rukia, Maja, Type K...), ≥60% split boards (VE.A, Doppelgänger, Uni660...), etc.
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 01 July 2020, 10:39:54
Yes, it's one of the things I would add. As you know, I'm not a huge fan of "Code". "System" is probably better (Mito is not fully committed to it in the new Laser!). Second 1u Alt is motivated by the Meta keys (diamond) in Icon mods. It's only one key and it wouldn't make sense to put it with the icons, therefore this is the most logical place. The Meta keys wouldn't necessarily be out of place with otherwise text+icon mods, imo.
Extension kits are not very popular. I have seen too many Alice boards without proper spacebars (when they were available in the extension kit). Hence putting only the necessary keys in there.
As someone who very much dislikes Code for a number of reasons (outlined here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=101960.msg2803194#msg2803194) and here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=104460.msg2870032#msg2870032)), I support changing all Code legends to System/Sys or Super. In that case, my proposition would be to add two 1.5u System or Super keys to the Extension kit, not Code. (By the way, 1u Sys in GMK Laser R2 was changed to Code for a different reason.)
As I said, I agree with the placement of the second 1u Alt in the base kit, if text 1.5u System/Super keys are added to the Extension kit to make it more purposeful. Otherwise, the second 1u Alt is useful if and only if the Icon Mods kit is purchased. It shouldn't make a big difference anyway since it's just one key, but I'm sure text 1.5u OS keys would be appreciated by a number of users (mostly Mac users, but also those who prefer OG HHKB key positions).
Regarding “necessary” keys, 1.5u OS keys are definitely more popular than the second 2.25u Shift currently present in the Extension kit, which is only used on 660 keyboards (of which there aren't that many, whereas any keyboard with a Tsangan/HHKB bottom row can use 1.5u OS keys). If you only count Western audiences, they are more popular than 2u Shift, 1u Shift, 1u Delete as well.They should come in pair. It is in fact for ortho, as is the 3u and extra 2u. It's cheap.
Well, I think there is no point in including the second 1u for ortho in the Extension kit because two of them are already present in the Ortho & 40's kit. If you have ever seen an ortho keyboard with four convex 1u space keys, please link it so I can take note :D Otherwise, the second one can be removed from the Extension kit.
Besides that, 1u, 2u and 3u space keys are also used on regular ≥60% boards (most Alice-style boards, some ≥60% splits, Minila), so they serve a purpose outside of being just additional ortho compatibility.Some boards have used two 1.75u spacebars (JD45). I see it more as an accent for Vortex Core.
JD45 falls under the same category as the JD40 that I mentioned (which also uses 2× 1.75u). If you want to count it separately, that still makes it only four keyboards in total that use a 1.75u spacebar, none of which are very popular, not even Vortex Core. It's fine if you want to keep it, but consider whether it's objectively common enough to warrant that (and also keep in mind that one 1.75u is already present in the Ortho & 40's kit).Since there are no 1.5u spacebars (Atreus, etc.), these can serve as replacements. Also Minila has two convex 1.25u.
Again, two 1.25u space keys are already included in the Extension kit, which you have to buy in order to get Minila support anyway :) No need to duplicate them in the Spacebars kit (that was the point of my comment). Also, Atreus uses two 1.25u/1.5u spacebars, not four, so the Extension kit on its own will be enough for that as well.They're already included in the ortho set. Is there any non-ortho-40's board that could make use of them (convex 1u)?
Yes, convex 1u is useful for most Alice-style ergo boards (Alice, Lubrigante, Rukia, Maja, Type K...), ≥60% split boards (VE.A, Doppelgänger, Uni660...), etc.
I haven't read all the discussions about Laser, why was 1u Sys changed to Code? I'm leaning towards Code because it's more popular (at this time). I think the Meta keys are a good enough option for Mac users. Both Extension and Icon mods will be priced similarly. I see more value in Icon mods for most people and all OSes.
Regarding the convex keys... removing one 1u or 1.25u will not change the price of the kits, so it's pointless to remove them. My approach is about offering all convex sizes, in both colours.
Post by: konstantin on Wed, 01 July 2020, 10:52:54
I haven't read all the discussions about Laser, why was 1u Sys changed to Code? I'm leaning towards Code because it's more popular (at this time). I think the Meta keys are a good enough option for Mac users. Both Extension and Icon mods will be priced similarly. I see more value in Icon mods for most people and all OSes.
It was done purely for aesthetics on HHKB boards, and also for people who use Code for both 1u bottom row keys on HHKB even when they don't map the second one to be an OS key (Code is more neutral than Sys in that particular use case) — which is odd reasoning, imo, but that's what MiTo went with.
Regarding the convex keys... removing one 1u or 1.25u will not change the price of the kits, so it's pointless to remove them. My approach is about offering all convex sizes, in both colours.
In that case, please offer a 1u convex option in both colors as well. Then I can get just Spacebars (I need the 1u for my Rukia) and not bother with Extension.
By the way, it's actually 4 extraneous convex keys in total (3 of which in Spacebars), which isn't insignificant.
Edit: grammar
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 01 July 2020, 11:27:48
I haven't read all the discussions about Laser, why was 1u Sys changed to Code? I'm leaning towards Code because it's more popular (at this time). I think the Meta keys are a good enough option for Mac users. Both Extension and Icon mods will be priced similarly. I see more value in Icon mods for most people and all OSes.
It was done purely for aesthetics on HHKB boards, and also for people who use Code for both 1u bottom row keys on HHKB even when they don't map the second one to be an OS key (Code is more neutral than Sys in that particular use case).
I feel like there's already plenty of options for R4 1.5u keys (Alt, Meta, Think, Fn).
Quote
Regarding the convex keys... removing one 1u or 1.25u will not change the price of the kits, so it's pointless to remove them. My approach is about offering all convex sizes, in both colours.
In that case, please add a 1u convex option in both colors as well. In that case I can just get Spacebars (I need the 1u for my Rukia) and not bother with Extension.
And it's actually 4 extraneous keys in total (3 of which in Spacebars), which isn't insignificant.
Can't you get all the spacebars you need for Rukia in the Extension kit?
Post by: konstantin on Wed, 01 July 2020, 11:46:21
Can't you get all the spacebars you need for Rukia in the Extension kit?
Yes, but I will be getting Spacebars anyway for the 6u's and large accent bars. Since I don't mind the color of the small bars, that leaves just 1u that isn't covered by the Spacebars kit, and I don't want to have to get another kit for just that one key. Why not drop the 1.75u and second 1.25u and add a 1u (a more commonly used space key on ≥60%)? Or just add a 1u straight up? In the former case the kit would be $3–$5 cheaper (depending on vendor markup) without really sacrificing anything. In the latter case it would be in line with what you said about offering all convex sizes in both colors. Either way, a 1u should be in there, imo.
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 01 July 2020, 11:57:52
Can't you get all the spacebars you need for Rukia in the Extension kit?
Yes, but I will be getting Spacebars anyway for the 6u's and large accent bars. Since I don't mind the color of the small bars, that leaves just 1u that isn't covered by the Spacebars kit, and I don't want to have to get another kit for just that one key. Why not drop the 1.75u and second 1.25u and add a 1u (a more commonly used space key on ≥60%)? Or just add a 1u straight up? In the former case the kit would be $3–$5 cheaper (depending on vendor markup) without really sacrificing anything. In the latter case it would be in line with what you said about offering all convex sizes in both colors. Either way, a 1u should be in there, imo.
I would call this an edge case... ;)
Let me reiterate. The reason for keeping the extra 1.75u is because some boards have two, it's their only option. The reason for two 1.25u is because Yoda and Minila support are staples of this set (due to the theme and new GMK 3u SB). Therefore removing one 1.25u makes no sense. Adding two 1u's is something to consider.
You should seriously consider asking an ortho user to sell you their blue convex 1u's!
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 01 July 2020, 12:02:44
Can't you get all the spacebars you need for Rukia in the Extension kit?
Yes, but I will be getting Spacebars anyway for the 6u's and large accent bars. Since I don't mind the color of the small bars, that leaves just 1u that isn't covered by the Spacebars kit, and I don't want to have to get another kit for just that one key. Why not drop the 1.75u and second 1.25u and add a 1u (a more commonly used space key on ≥60%)? Or just add a 1u straight up? In the former case the kit would be $3–$5 cheaper (depending on vendor markup) without really sacrificing anything. In the latter case it would be in line with what you said about offering all convex sizes in both colors. Either way, a 1u should be in there, imo.
I would call this an edge case... ;)
Let me reiterate. The reason for keeping the extra 1.75u is because some boards have two, it's their only option. The reason for two 1.25u is because Yoda and Minila support are staples of this set (due to the theme and new GMK 3u SB). Therefore removing one 1.25u makes no sense. Adding two 1u's is something to consider.
You should seriously consider asking an ortho user to sell you their blue convex 1u's!
Same goes for me! I need that R4 1.75u Lock key for my Minila, and will have to ask an ortho user to sell me theirs!
--
We have deliberately separated the Numpad from base to allow extra budget for kits. You're welcome. ;D
Post by: konstantin on Wed, 01 July 2020, 12:18:06
I would call this an edge case... ;)
Let me reiterate. The reason for keeping the extra 1.75u is because some boards have two, it's their only option. The reason for two 1.25u is because Yoda and Minila support are staples of this set (due to the theme and new GMK 3u SB). Therefore removing one 1.25u makes no sense. Adding two 1u's is something to consider.
You should seriously consider asking an ortho user to sell you their blue convex 1u's!
Take a cursory look at the IC and GB boards on this forum, and you will find that Alice-style boards are by no means an edge case :D All of them (I can't think of any exceptions rn) support 2.25u+1u spacebar layouts.
There is no real reason why 1u's have to come in pairs. Only ortho boards use 2× 1u spacebars. The ortho kit already contains two of them. There don't need to be two 1u spacebars in the Extension and Spacebars kits. Just put one black 1u in Extension and one accent 1u in Spacebars and be done with it :)
Insisting on pairs of 1u's everywhere is the wrong kind of consistency to go for. This kind of consistency is better, so I recommend going through with that instead:
Quote
My approach is about offering all convex sizes, in both colours.
You should seriously consider asking an ortho user to sell you their blue convex 1u's!
Yeah, because that approach usually works out great for everyone... it's not like I've been looking for someone to sell me their Red Samurai cloud novelties for the past 1.5 years or anything... :)
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 01 July 2020, 12:24:50
I would call this an edge case... ;)
Let me reiterate. The reason for keeping the extra 1.75u is because some boards have two, it's their only option. The reason for two 1.25u is because Yoda and Minila support are staples of this set (due to the theme and new GMK 3u SB). Therefore removing one 1.25u makes no sense. Adding two 1u's is something to consider.
You should seriously consider asking an ortho user to sell you their blue convex 1u's!
Take a cursory look at the IC and GB boards on this forum, and you will find that Alice-style boards are by no means an edge case :D All of them (I can't think of any exceptions rn) support 2.25u+1u spacebar layouts.
Alice is supported by both spacebars and extension kits, in both colours... I'm sorry, but what I meant by "edge case" is you trying to score all the keys you need in a single kit (for two keyboards!).
Edit: no hard feelings <3
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 01 July 2020, 14:25:35
(https://i.imgur.com/SRszyE1.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/n8404BT.png)
Conclusion:
- Average budget for the Accent kit is $22.75 (if I'm not mistaken)
- Ortho & 40's poll is bit skewed towards the standalone option, since I posted the set on r/OLKB (https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/hi09ia/ic_gmk_thinkcaps_set_for_ortholinear_and_40s/) a few days ago. Prior to that, the results were already pretty conclusive, at around 50% for standalone with 72 votes (2020-06-29).
Post by: Ensaum on Wed, 01 July 2020, 14:29:46
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 01 July 2020, 14:40:10
I'd absolutely be willing to pay more for a larger accent kit fyi. I took that question as meaning "what would you be willing to pay for this small accent pack."
Sorry for the confusion. I explicitly noted "Example of an accent kit (may contain MORE keys)", in the form... Perhaps I could've phrased it differently. Hopefully the sample size will offset any misunderstandings.
The price for the Accent kit will be $20~25. I think this is reasonable, because some people want to buy several.
Post by: fatpolomanjr on Wed, 01 July 2020, 16:29:23
Post by: 100 percent horse on Sat, 04 July 2020, 08:02:29
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Post by: BloodyMarvel on Sun, 05 July 2020, 08:45:41
You need to decide what you want in the kit, get a quote, and that's what it's gonna cost. It's not a request to set a price. The less you wanna pay, the smaller the kit will need to be to hit that price.
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 05 July 2020, 10:50:08
Anytime you ask "how much are you willing to pay" the results are gonna be skewed towards the low end, because people think that the lower they vote, the less it will cost.
You need to decide what you want in the kit, get a quote, and that's what it's gonna cost. It's not a request to set a price. The less you wanna pay, the smaller the kit will need to be to hit that price.
I'm actually quite happy with the result.
We have a small amount of headroom and already opinions are starting to diverge. I wouldn't want to have to decide what goes into a $50 kit...
Post by: parablol on Wed, 08 July 2020, 12:23:33
I'm interested in that stand-alone ortho kit. It's got almost everything I need except for an extra 2u R4C key, but I'll just buy a spacebar kit so I can enjoy the extra 1u R4C keys too.
Looking forward to the GB!
Post by: equalunique on Thu, 09 July 2020, 11:01:26
I like the dots on the bottom row, personally. Not sure if anybody else wants them...
I like the bottom row dots too. On the Preonic render you have I think they look pretty cool, especially with the red case. I also didn't see any renders of standard keyboards using them for their arrow keys, but I think that would be cool too. I can see 65%/75%/CP users also having three of them in place over the right-side Ctrl/Win/Alt keys.
But overall, I can see why they'd be unpopular. It's kind of a niche thing. :(
Post by: Dunne on Thu, 09 July 2020, 11:57:18
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 13 July 2020, 17:00:01
We're lining up some top tier vendors for this group buy! Our US vendor wants me to gather more data on the preferred kits. I encourage everyone to please fill out this new form:
- NEW GMK ThinkCaps form: https://forms.gle/3m31h6g1t6ykKEQD8
If you've already filled out the old forms, please make sure you also fill out the new one. Sorry about that!
Post by: voodoo6k on Tue, 14 July 2020, 09:47:50
I like the dots on the bottom row, personally. Not sure if anybody else wants them...
I like the bottom row dots too. On the Preonic render you have I think they look pretty cool, especially with the red case. I also didn't see any renders of standard keyboards using them for their arrow keys, but I think that would be cool too. I can see 65%/75%/CP users also having three of them in place over the right-side Ctrl/Win/Alt keys.
But overall, I can see why they'd be unpopular. It's kind of a niche thing. :(
I'm keeping them for now. We'll see ;)
I got a numpad for my girlfriend's ThinkPad T420 and the kit here will be a great kit for it. Just need a R1 1u "Fn" key, but I suppose one of the red TrackPoint-looking novelties will do fine instead.
I'm interested in that stand-alone ortho kit. It's got almost everything I need except for an extra 2u R4C key, but I'll just buy a spacebar kit so I can enjoy the extra 1u R4C keys too.
Looking forward to the GB!
Yes! I'm really pushing for that ortho & 40's set...
Fn would be the next key added to the numpad, if there was any room to spare.
As for the extra 2u you can go with either Extension (black) or Spacebars (blue).
Keycap set is looking great I like the GMK Dot vibes too!
Thank you :)
Everyone, please remember to fill out our new form: https://forms.gle/3m31h6g1t6ykKEQD8
Post by: konstantin on Tue, 14 July 2020, 19:00:15
Alice is supported by both spacebars and extension kits, in both colours... I'm sorry, but what I meant by "edge case" is you trying to score all the keys you need in a single kit (for two keyboards!).
Edit: no hard feelings <3
Just saw this. No worries, it's all preference and trade-offs; you win some, you lose some :) In general I'm happy with the current kits. Ik you know what you're doing :)
Post by: Kavik on Wed, 15 July 2020, 00:21:00
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 15 July 2020, 10:06:20
I've sworn off buying anymore keycap sets, but I really like the IBM/Lenovo/Thinkpad theme. I'll keep an eye on this.
I like hearing this ;)
Alice is supported by both spacebars and extension kits, in both colours... I'm sorry, but what I meant by "edge case" is you trying to score all the keys you need in a single kit (for two keyboards!).
Edit: no hard feelings <3
Just saw this. No worries, it's all preference and trade-offs; you win some, you lose some :) In general I'm happy with the current kits. Ik you know what you're doing :)
After looking over the set with a US vendor, we concluded that there may be too many kits. Icon mods is at risk. So you may get your way in the end, as the kits get jumbled again... ;) Only thing is, where would the windows keys go?
And then there's Ortho & 40's (standalone)... 250 MOQ is huge. I think we can do it, and I commit to buy any remainder to reach 250 (as Canadian proxy Yakk shop).
I will make separate IC threads for the RGB and icon mods, as they're compatible with many other sets.
Post by: konstantin on Wed, 15 July 2020, 11:07:47
After looking over the set with a US vendor, we concluded that there may be too many kits. Icon mods is at risk. So you may get your way in the end, as the kits get jumbled again... ;) Only thing is, where would the windows keys go?
And then there's Ortho & 40's (standalone)... 250 MOQ is huge. I think we can do it, and I commit to buy any remainder to reach 250 (as Canadian proxy Yakk shop).
I will make separate IC threads for the RGB and icon mods, as they're compatible with many other sets.
Ah man, that's a shame, I'd rather see RGB mods get the axe than Icon mods. They're the furthest removed from the ThinkPad theme, imo, and there are already RGB mods kits/ICs/GBs out there (and will be in the future).
Are you interested in optimizations for the Ortho & 40's kit? Cause I got those :D I see at least 5 keys that can be cut / merged / offloaded. But also a couple that would need to be added for full physical coverage of some popular 40% boards.
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 15 July 2020, 11:50:08
After looking over the set with a US vendor, we concluded that there may be too many kits. Icon mods is at risk. So you may get your way in the end, as the kits get jumbled again... ;) Only thing is, where would the windows keys go?
And then there's Ortho & 40's (standalone)... 250 MOQ is huge. I think we can do it, and I commit to buy any remainder to reach 250 (as Canadian proxy Yakk shop).
I will make separate IC threads for the RGB and icon mods, as they're compatible with many other sets.
[...]
Are you interested in optimizations for the Ortho & 40's kit? Cause I got those :D I see at least 5 keys that can be cut / merged / offloaded. But also a couple that would need to be added for full physical coverage of some popular 40% boards.
Let's go
Post by: psxndc on Wed, 15 July 2020, 13:09:11
Are you interested in optimizations for the Ortho & 40's kit? Cause I got those :D I see at least 5 keys that can be cut / merged / offloaded. But also a couple that would need to be added for full physical coverage of some popular 40% boards.
Please don't take away my 1u R3 Ctrl.
Post by: konstantin on Wed, 15 July 2020, 13:17:41
Let's go
I'll send you a message on Discord.
Please don't take away my 1u R3 Ctrl.
R3 1u Ctrl is used by a number of users, so I wouldn't suggest removing it. However, would you mind it being changed to a more generic legend such as Hack, Meta or Code? As such, it would also be able to cover R3 Caps, Shift or Fn (alongside Ctrl, ofc) for ortho users who prefer to use those keys on R3.
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 15 July 2020, 13:41:37
Let's go
I'll send you a message on Discord.Please don't take away my 1u R3 Ctrl.
R3 1u Ctrl is used by a number of users, so I wouldn't suggest removing it. However, would you mind it being changed to a more generic legend such as Hack, Meta or Code? As such, it would also be able to cover R3 Caps, Shift or Fn (alongside Ctrl, ofc) for ortho users who prefer to use those keys on R3.
It's not a bad idea. There's also the R3 novelties (dots).
I don't mind if you wanted to share it here as well. Either way. Keep in mind that there's a reason behind every key, but I'm always open to suggestions.
Post by: psxndc on Wed, 15 July 2020, 13:58:04
My main concern is being stuck with ESC and TAB as my *only* options for that slot. To that point, if I'm being honest, if there's two or more non-ESC/TAB options for R3, I'm going to use one of them for the N9 ortho kit that ran before. It only has ESC/TAB.
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 15 July 2020, 15:35:40
I personally am fine with a 1u R3 novelty. It's what I usually do, was just hoping I didn't have to this time. I would be happy with another term as well - hack, code, whatever.
My main concern is being stuck with ESC and TAB as my *only* options for that slot. To that point, if I'm being honest, if there's two or more non-ESC/TAB options for R3, I'm going to use one of them for the N9 ortho kit that ran before. It only has ESC/TAB.
Do you need R3 Ctrl and another R3 key in addition to that?
Post by: psxndc on Wed, 15 July 2020, 19:45:46
Is it a deal breaker for me if there is no Ctrl/code/hack and I have to rely on novelties? Not at all.
Edit: to answer the real question you're asking: I only need one key there. I don't care if it's Ctrl/code/hack or novelty, though my preference is not the novelty for this particular set because I *love* the idea of the dot in the middle of the board; it's friggin brilliant.
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 15 July 2020, 20:46:56
I am personally covered by the novelties as is. Would I prefer a Ctrl/Code/Hack there instead of a novelty? Yes.
Is it a deal breaker for me if there is no Ctrl/code/hack and I have to rely on novelties? Not at all.
Edit: to answer the real question you're asking: I only need one key there. I don't care if it's Ctrl/code/hack or novelty, though my preference is not the novelty for this particular set because I *love* the idea of the dot in the middle of the board; it's friggin brilliant.
Don't worry, R3 Ctrl is not going anywhere ;)
Post by: psxndc on Wed, 15 July 2020, 20:57:40
I just don't want tab or Esc because those are R2 and r1 respectively on all my boards and having either of those on R3 and another one on R2 or R1 is just goofy.
Post by: tomu on Thu, 16 July 2020, 05:53:14
The other kits look pretty spot on though.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 16 July 2020, 11:35:10
Sweet. And I would 1000% be fine if it was some other generic word there like konstantin was suggesting. I personally have that key mapped to backspace on tap, control on hold and know that others may use it for FN or caps or whatever.
I just don't want tab or Esc because those are R2 and r1 respectively on all my boards and having either of those on R3 and another one on R2 or R1 is just goofy.
Cool. I would stick with Ctrl because otherwise we have to choose an existing R3 1u legend (to keep the cost down). Not sure what the options are, off the top of my head.
Edit: C70 keyset has R3 1u Code.
Maybe add prev/skip keys to the novelties kit if you're going to have multimedia keys?
The other kits look pretty spot on though.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
It would make sense. I wasn't sure initially if people were on board with the media keys. The new poll seems to suggest so.
Please everyone fill out the new form (https://forms.gle/3m31h6g1t6ykKEQD8) if you haven't!
Thanks :)
Post by: konstantin on Thu, 16 July 2020, 21:04:42
Cool. I would stick with Ctrl because otherwise we have to choose an existing R3 1u legend (to keep the cost down). Not sure what the options are, off the top of my head.
Edit: C70 keyset has R3 1u Code.
FYI, any legend mold can be used on any row, except R0 and R5, as long as the key size stays the same. So a 1u Code mold can be used for any 1u Code key on rows 1–4.
Some useful legend-mold–related info from GMK:
(https://i.imgur.com/02NLPH7.png)
List of suggested changes for the 40s kit coming soon!
Post by: voodoo6k on Fri, 17 July 2020, 09:18:03
Cool. I would stick with Ctrl because otherwise we have to choose an existing R3 1u legend (to keep the cost down). Not sure what the options are, off the top of my head.
Edit: C70 keyset has R3 1u Code.
FYI, any legend mold can be used on any row, except R0 and R5, as long as the key size stays the same. So a 1u Code mold can be used for any 1u Code key on rows 1–4.
Some useful legend-mold–related info from GMK:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/02NLPH7.png)
List of suggested changes for the 40s kit coming soon!
Good to know! :thumb:
Edit:
Small correction on the ortho & 40's set (Code -> Alt) for Prime_E, AMJ40, JD45, etc.:
(https://i.imgur.com/cz7izEd.jpg)
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 19 July 2020, 10:49:40
(https://i.redd.it/fkbph9uk3ub51.jpg)
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/hu2ipv/ic_gmk_ortho_40s_standalone_set_thinkcaps/
All votes count! :)
Post by: NorrittMTG on Sun, 19 July 2020, 16:41:42
Just R4 |\ and R3 #~ in the base would be fine but ideally full U.K. ISO even if it’s an additional kit
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 19 July 2020, 21:41:43
I would snap this set up in a heartbeat if it had better UK ISO support.
Just R4 |\ and R3 #~ in the base would be fine but ideally full U.K. ISO even if it’s an additional kit
ISO has been discussed at length in this thread... in summary: we decided to go with an ISO-US variant, instead of ISO-UK, because:
1. Less keys = less expensive base set;
2. While ISO-UK is arguably the most popular ISO layout, it doesn't outweigh the other international layouts (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.msg2908129#msg2908129);
3. ISO-UK and international kit sales in general are very poor relative to the base set.
So I added a NorDeUK (https://i.imgur.com/j5r2F79.jpg) option to the form. If there's enough interest, then we'll add it!
Our EU vendor really wants one... ;)
Post by: DALExSNAIL on Sun, 19 July 2020, 22:59:05
Beautiful set man.
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 20 July 2020, 12:33:57
Lookin at these renders, wondering why I try :'(
Beautiful set man.
Thank you... Your renders are awesome! :thumb:
[...]
List of suggested changes for the 40s kit coming soon!
Every day that goes by without a reply... I imagine you like this:
Ohhh I can't find anything wrong with! It's already perrrfect!!
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/9c1db3bd3a4b2193cabe47ba84019b1d/tenor.gif?itemid=9170373)
Post by: konstantin on Mon, 20 July 2020, 14:05:31
Every day that goes by without a reply... I imagine you like this:
Ohhh I can't find anything wrong with! It's already perrrfect!!Show Image(https://media1.tenor.com/images/9c1db3bd3a4b2193cabe47ba84019b1d/tenor.gif?itemid=9170373)
Doing some research for one of my own 40s kits, I want to wait until I finish that to make sure I don't miss anything here. Granted, it's only a few keys so far ;)
Post by: Kalabalik on Wed, 22 July 2020, 02:06:11
Post by: robrobro on Thu, 23 July 2020, 10:33:18
Post by: hottrout on Thu, 23 July 2020, 12:33:33
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 23 July 2020, 12:50:23
Set of the year right here. Can't wait.
I really like this set! I had decided on a few more sets this year and to draw the line there, but I think my will is broken and I’ll have to get this.
:thumb:
Where did the UK ISO go?
It went to NorDeUK (https://i.imgur.com/j5r2F79.jpg). Don't forget to select it in the form. If there's enough interest, we'll add it.
I have to admit, I wasn't really aware of ISO-US before this IC... it's a more coherent solution to ISO compatibility.
Post by: robrobro on Fri, 24 July 2020, 15:37:27
Also it would be fun with some eye-bee-m novelties/artisans based on the work of Paul Rand.
Post by: voodoo6k on Fri, 24 July 2020, 17:59:00
A couple of thoughts, I really like the idea of using a dot dot the second alice B. Would it make sense to include a dot alongside the extra b in that kit?
Also it would be fun with some eye-bee-m novelties/artisans based on the work of Paul Rand.
I didn't know about that logo.
It's super nice, however I'm afraid we can't step into trademark territory...
As for the Dots, I have permission from Biip (original designer) to use them as novelties, so I won't put one in Extension.
(https://i.imgur.com/Zb7uDda.jpg)
Post by: Pejano on Sat, 25 July 2020, 05:51:55
Post by: godofdeath on Mon, 27 July 2020, 08:14:03
Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 27 July 2020, 08:16:59
Any F13?
Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
Dolch R5
(https://i.imgur.com/p92FDp7.png)
Post by: Owl on Tue, 28 July 2020, 19:45:29
Post by: baccaan on Fri, 31 July 2020, 22:21:36
Post by: voodoo6k on Sat, 01 August 2020, 09:42:31
Not sure why I am only just now seeing this. I ****ing love Thinkpads so this is a must-have for me. Thank you. Any projections on GB?
Q4 2020!
Any chance of offering Vim keycaps as an addon? I think that'd go nicely with the set and the thinkpad aesthetic. I really dig the set!!
Yeah, I agree. Maybe if there's room in the Extension kit. No promises.
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 09 August 2020, 18:14:13
Every day that goes by without a reply... I imagine you like this:
Ohhh I can't find anything wrong with! It's already perrrfect!!Show Image(https://media1.tenor.com/images/9c1db3bd3a4b2193cabe47ba84019b1d/tenor.gif?itemid=9170373)
Doing some research for one of my own 40s kits, I want to wait until I finish that to make sure I don't miss anything here. Granted, it's only a few keys so far ;)
Still waiting...
Post by: psxndc on Sun, 09 August 2020, 18:20:31
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200809/967b7aed3c67ff4dca6445d442635a1c.jpg)...
Doing some research for one of my own 40s kits, I want to wait until I finish that to make sure I don't miss anything here. Granted, it's only a few keys so far ;)
Still waiting...
Post by: VXQN on Mon, 10 August 2020, 03:48:35
Post by: therealemanuelmartinez on Sun, 16 August 2020, 23:57:28
A couple of thoughts, I really like the idea of using a dot dot the second alice B. Would it make sense to include a dot alongside the extra b in that kit?
Also it would be fun with some eye-bee-m novelties/artisans based on the work of Paul Rand.
I didn't know about that logo.
It's super nice, however I'm afraid we can't step into trademark territory...
As for the Dots, I have permission from Biip (original designer) to use them as novelties, so I won't put one in Extension.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Zb7uDda.jpg)
Mayhaps we can contact the company? Also, please check out their color palettes which are public! I understand they are web colors but it's my understanding they are also refined across materials.
It's moderately funny that this is basically their laws/principles of color:
https://www.ibm.com/design/language/color/ (https://www.ibm.com/design/language/color/)
You might be able to use interest check numbers to leverage the idea of them allowing you to use that poster design when you get in contact with the correct staffing at IBM. Here's another piece of the puzzle, take it with a fist sized rock of pink Himalayan salt because Wikipedia.
not covered under fair use as corporate identity/logo because it is not an official company logo (nor is it endorsed by IBM)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eye-Bee-M-Poster.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eye-Bee-M-Poster.jpg)
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 17 August 2020, 13:45:17
I’m in for everything except alphas.A couple of thoughts, I really like the idea of using a dot dot the second alice B. Would it make sense to include a dot alongside the extra b in that kit?
Also it would be fun with some eye-bee-m novelties/artisans based on the work of Paul Rand.
I didn't know about that logo.
It's super nice, however I'm afraid we can't step into trademark territory...
As for the Dots, I have permission from Biip (original designer) to use them as novelties, so I won't put one in Extension.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Zb7uDda.jpg)
Mayhaps we can contact the company? Also, please check out their color palettes which are public! I understand they are web colors but it's my understanding they are also refined across materials.
It's moderately funny that this is basically their laws/principles of color:
https://www.ibm.com/design/language/color/ (https://www.ibm.com/design/language/color/)
You might be able to use interest check numbers to leverage the idea of them allowing you to use that poster design when you get in contact with the correct staffing at IBM. Here's another piece of the puzzle, take it with a fist sized rock of pink Himalayan salt because Wikipedia.
not covered under fair use as corporate identity/logo because it is not an official company logo (nor is it endorsed by IBM)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eye-Bee-M-Poster.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eye-Bee-M-Poster.jpg)
I mean, yeah. This site is a gold mine when it comes to design inspiration. More on the IBM bee/rebus (https://www.ibm.com/design/language/ibm-logos/rebus/) logos.
Despite the download agreement (https://www.ibm.com/design/v1/language/legal/download-agreement/), I'm not completely clear on what can be used, freely, for commercial purposes.
I'm already using the IBM Plex (https://www.ibm.com/plex/) font for the kit renders. Not sure if I want to poke the bear any further...
Post by: therealemanuelmartinez on Mon, 17 August 2020, 15:01:37
I’m in for everything except alphas.A couple of thoughts, I really like the idea of using a dot dot the second alice B. Would it make sense to include a dot alongside the extra b in that kit?
Also it would be fun with some eye-bee-m novelties/artisans based on the work of Paul Rand.
I didn't know about that logo.
It's super nice, however I'm afraid we can't step into trademark territory...
As for the Dots, I have permission from Biip (original designer) to use them as novelties, so I won't put one in Extension.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Zb7uDda.jpg)
Mayhaps we can contact the company? Also, please check out their color palettes which are public! I understand they are web colors but it's my understanding they are also refined across materials.
It's moderately funny that this is basically their laws/principles of color:
https://www.ibm.com/design/language/color/ (https://www.ibm.com/design/language/color/)
You might be able to use interest check numbers to leverage the idea of them allowing you to use that poster design when you get in contact with the correct staffing at IBM. Here's another piece of the puzzle, take it with a fist sized rock of pink Himalayan salt because Wikipedia.
not covered under fair use as corporate identity/logo because it is not an official company logo (nor is it endorsed by IBM)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eye-Bee-M-Poster.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eye-Bee-M-Poster.jpg)
I mean, yeah. This site is a gold mine when it comes to design inspiration. More on the IBM bee/rebus (https://www.ibm.com/design/language/ibm-logos/rebus/) logos.
Despite the download agreement (https://www.ibm.com/design/v1/language/legal/download-agreement/), I'm not completely clear on what can be used, freely, for commercial purposes.
I'm already using the IBM Plex (https://www.ibm.com/plex/) font for the kit renders. Not sure if I want to poke the bear any further...
I'm not a lawyer, but this is how it appears to me.
- The IBM rebus is, in its essence, an artistic adaptation of the IBM logo.
- If the likeness of the 8 bar logo M is removed you will have greater favor.
- The font's name, Plex, is a registered trademark.
- The design however, might not be.
Quote
- The following are terms of a legal downloader agreement (the “Agreement”) regarding Your download of Content (as defined below) from this Website
- This Website may contain other proprietary notices and copyright information, the terms of which must be observed and followed
- Any use of the Content in violation of this Agreement is strictly prohibited
- The Content may be provided by IBM or third-parties
- IBM-Content is owned by IBM and is copyrighted and licensed, not sold
- Third-party Content is owned by its respective owner and is licensed by the third party directly to You
- IBM’s decision to permit posting of third-party Content does not constitute an express or implied license from IBM to You or a recommendation or endorsement by IBM of any particular product, service, company or technology
- The party providing the Content (the “Provider”) grants You a nonexclusive, worldwide, irrevocable, royalty-free, copyright license
- edit, copy, reproduce, publish, publicly display and/or perform, format, modify and/or make derivative works of, translate, re-arrange, and distribute the Content or any portions thereof and to sublicense any or all such rights and to permit sublicensees to further sublicense such rights
- for both commercial and non-commercial use, provided You abide by the terms of this Agreement
- Neither IBM nor the provider of the Content grants a patent license of any kind, whether expressed or implied or by estoppel
- As a condition of exercising the rights and licenses granted under this Agreement, You assume sole responsibility to obtain any other intellectual property rights needed
- The Provider of the Content is the party that submitted the Content for Posting and who represents and warrants that they own all of the Content, (or have obtained all written releases, authorizations and licenses from any other owner(s) necessary to grant IBM and downloaders this license with respect to portions of the Content not owned by the Provider)
This being my supporting material, I can say that by using the three components of the IBM rebus separately (as three individual novelties: Eye, Bee, [monogram] M) with recommendations stated prior is of equal or lesser level to using the Plex font which is a registered trademark. Note that all trademarks are removed in their reference images of the IBM rebus on their website:
(https://www.ibm.com/design/language/ab9936fcbc48b33beb969671629e07be/rebusclassic1.svg)
This is not legal advice.
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 17 August 2020, 15:21:23
I’m in for everything except alphas.A couple of thoughts, I really like the idea of using a dot dot the second alice B. Would it make sense to include a dot alongside the extra b in that kit?
Also it would be fun with some eye-bee-m novelties/artisans based on the work of Paul Rand.
I didn't know about that logo.
It's super nice, however I'm afraid we can't step into trademark territory...
As for the Dots, I have permission from Biip (original designer) to use them as novelties, so I won't put one in Extension.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Zb7uDda.jpg)
Mayhaps we can contact the company? Also, please check out their color palettes which are public! I understand they are web colors but it's my understanding they are also refined across materials.
It's moderately funny that this is basically their laws/principles of color:
https://www.ibm.com/design/language/color/ (https://www.ibm.com/design/language/color/)
You might be able to use interest check numbers to leverage the idea of them allowing you to use that poster design when you get in contact with the correct staffing at IBM. Here's another piece of the puzzle, take it with a fist sized rock of pink Himalayan salt because Wikipedia.
not covered under fair use as corporate identity/logo because it is not an official company logo (nor is it endorsed by IBM)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eye-Bee-M-Poster.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eye-Bee-M-Poster.jpg)
I mean, yeah. This site is a gold mine when it comes to design inspiration. More on the IBM bee/rebus (https://www.ibm.com/design/language/ibm-logos/rebus/) logos.
Despite the download agreement (https://www.ibm.com/design/v1/language/legal/download-agreement/), I'm not completely clear on what can be used, freely, for commercial purposes.
I'm already using the IBM Plex (https://www.ibm.com/plex/) font for the kit renders. Not sure if I want to poke the bear any further...
I'm not a lawyer, but this is how it appears to me.This is important in relation to the hyperlinked agreement, I implore you to read these sections as it also pertains to the font you are using (quoted for brevity):
- The IBM rebus is, in its essence, an artistic adaptation of the IBM logo.
- If the likeness of the 8 bar logo M is removed you will have greater favor.
- The font's name, Plex, is a registered trademark.
- The design however, might not be.
Quote
- The following are terms of a legal downloader agreement (the “Agreement”) regarding Your download of Content (as defined below) from this Website
- This Website may contain other proprietary notices and copyright information, the terms of which must be observed and followed
- Any use of the Content in violation of this Agreement is strictly prohibited
- The Content may be provided by IBM or third-parties
- IBM-Content is owned by IBM and is copyrighted and licensed, not sold
- Third-party Content is owned by its respective owner and is licensed by the third party directly to You
- IBM’s decision to permit posting of third-party Content does not constitute an express or implied license from IBM to You or a recommendation or endorsement by IBM of any particular product, service, company or technology
- The party providing the Content (the “Provider”) grants You a nonexclusive, worldwide, irrevocable, royalty-free, copyright license
- edit, copy, reproduce, publish, publicly display and/or perform, format, modify and/or make derivative works of, translate, re-arrange, and distribute the Content or any portions thereof and to sublicense any or all such rights and to permit sublicensees to further sublicense such rights
- for both commercial and non-commercial use, provided You abide by the terms of this Agreement
- Neither IBM nor the provider of the Content grants a patent license of any kind, whether expressed or implied or by estoppel
- As a condition of exercising the rights and licenses granted under this Agreement, You assume sole responsibility to obtain any other intellectual property rights needed
- The Provider of the Content is the party that submitted the Content for Posting and who represents and warrants that they own all of the Content, (or have obtained all written releases, authorizations and licenses from any other owner(s) necessary to grant IBM and downloaders this license with respect to portions of the Content not owned by the Provider)
This being my supporting material, I can say that by using the three components of the IBM rebus separately (as three individual novelties: Eye, Bee, [monogram] M) with recommendations stated prior is of equal or lesser level to using the Plex font which is a registered trademark. Note that all trademarks are removed in their reference images of the IBM rebus on their website:Show Image(https://www.ibm.com/design/language/ab9936fcbc48b33beb969671629e07be/rebusclassic1.svg)
This is not legal advice.
Regarding the Plex Sans (https://fonts.google.com/specimen/IBM+Plex+Sans#license) font:
Quote
These fonts are licensed under the Open Font License.
You can use them freely in your products & projects - print or digital, commercial or otherwise. However, you can't sell the fonts on their own.
This isn't legal advice, please consider consulting a lawyer and see the full license for all details.
As for IBM rebus, I'm not really comfortable using it or any parts of it.
Post by: therealemanuelmartinez on Mon, 17 August 2020, 15:50:41
Quote
As for IBM rebus, I'm not really comfortable using it or any parts of it.
Fair enough, I believe you would receive overwhelming support and respect if you successfully coordinated with IBM to do so. If this was a set I was designing I would make it happen, with all consequences registered. You don't have to change your mind, because your decision is correct and within your own tolerances. As you said in your post, this is an Thinkpad-IBM/Lenovo set rather than one that is exclusively IBM. As a fellow designer though, I say it's a let down and missed opportunity. That's all the feedback I have to offer besides using custom colors.
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 17 August 2020, 18:28:06
QuoteAs for IBM rebus, I'm not really comfortable using it or any parts of it.
Fair enough, I believe you would receive overwhelming support and respect if you successfully coordinated with IBM to do so. If this was a set I was designing I would make it happen, with all consequences registered. You don't have to change your mind, because your decision is correct and within your own tolerances. As you said in your post, this is an Thinkpad-IBM/Lenovo set rather than one that is exclusively IBM. As a fellow designer though, I say it's a let down and missed opportunity. That's all the feedback I have to offer besides using custom colors.
I'm just a simple person in the face of a giant corporation. :rolleyes:
I would be very surprised if IBM let us use their IP (at all) without any restrictions. That's if you expected a response in the first place!
Post by: konstantin on Fri, 21 August 2020, 09:34:49
Doing some research for one of my own 40s kits, I want to wait until I finish that to make sure I don't miss anything here. Granted, it's only a few keys so far ;)
Still waiting...
Hi there ;) Sorry to keep you waiting! I was away for a bit. Here you go:
Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/ojWQ5bD.jpg)
- Standalone orthogonal and 40% set (250 MOQ)
- R3 1u Tab/Ctrl/Enter, all minibars, MiniVan modifiers, etc.
- Alternative extention set: https://i.imgur.com/2jaf2Ep.jpg
Kitting suggestions
- Let's start with the biggest change proposition I have, which goes beyond just the Ortho & 40's kit. That is replacing Code with either System or Start, and then changing R3 1u Ctrl to Code in the 40s kit, as we've discussed previously.
- I believe you've said (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.msg2926800#msg2926800) that you aren't a fan of Code. That's good, because I think Code doesn't make (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=101960.msg2803194#msg2803194) sense (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=104460.msg2870032#msg2870032) as an OS key legend.
- Lenovo has a history of using Start (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wdAAAOSwT4pdYk5w/s-l640.jpg) as an OS key legend on their standalone ThinkPad keyboards. Start molds exist in both 1.25u and 1u; GMK DMG (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1679/2319/products/GMK_DMG_basekit_181109-2_1200x1200.jpg?v=1572646308) introduced them. I don't think that a 1.5u Start mold exists, but this isn't a problem as GMK ThinkCaps doesn't have textual 1.5u OS keys, only ♢.
- The other option is System, which exists in 1.25u (introduced by GMK Yugo (https://i.imgur.com/k0fgkdF.png)) and 1u as Sys (one of Cherry's OG molds). System is a good legend choice since OS keys do system-specific actions.
- As mentioned previously in the thread, R3 1u Code will allow the key to cover for Shift, Caps and Fn, in addition to Ctrl. An approximate usage distribution for these keys can be found here (https://i.imgur.com/OVofoyd.png) (sans Fn as that wasn't included in the survey (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=102205.msg2806656#msg2806656), but rest assured that that key is also used).
- Action points: Change 1.25u Code legends to Start or System, and change 1u Code to Start or Sys, in the TKL and 40s kits (keep 1.5u Code in 40s as this is a generic key). Afterwards, change R3 1u Ctrl to Code in 40s kit.
- The second R4 1u Fn key can be removed.
- Most ortho boards use at most 3 layer keys (Lower, Raise, Fn). Some layouts (including the Planck default one (https://i.redd.it/5a129uawmycx.png)) have a dedicated “config” key (e.g. for backlight), but a single Fn covers for that.
- Some layouts use two layer/config/other keys alongside Lower and Raise. Meta covers for this as it's a generic legend.
- Pretty much no layouts use two Fn keys that do the same thing, which renders the second Fn key fairly useless.
- I based this analysis on various Planck, Preonic, Boardwalk, XD75 user layouts found on Google Images (https://www.google.com/search?q=planck+layout&tbm=isch), the r/mk (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/search?q=planck%20layout&restrict_sr=1) and OLKB (https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/search?q=planck%20layout&restrict_sr=1) subreddits, QMK keymap repos (https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/planck/keymaps) and the Plank EZ keymap repo (https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/planck-ez/search), as well as discussions with other ortho users in the 40% Discord.
- Action points: Remove second R4 1u Fn from the 40s kit.
- Move accent 1u spacekeys to the Spacebars kit.
- 2u space is at least as popular as 2× 1u space on ortho layouts. Additionally, 2u space is used by some staggered 40% boards. Despite this, there is no accent 2u space in the 40s kit, only 1u's.
- Having accent 1u spacekeys in Spacebars would:
- reduce the size of the 40s kit by two keys;
- make the Spacebars and Extension kits fully symmetric in terms of offered split spacekeys;
- also allow Alice users to have an accent 1u spacekey (a use case which I mentioned in our previous discussion, here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.msg2926850#msg2926850) and here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.msg2926890#msg2926890)).
- Action points: Move both blue 1u spacekeys from 40s to Spacebars.
- Add R3 1.25u Code or Fn.
- R3 1.25u is a very common key on staggered 40% boards, but not all users like to put Tab there (which is currently the only option offered in the kit). Some use Fn, some use Ctrl, and so on.
- Additionally, if this key is added, two more boards will be able to be covered: Dimple (https://i.loli.net/2019/03/29/5c9daf903cad9.jpg) and UT47.2 (https://groupbuys.mechboards.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/UT47-W-_0004_Layer-1-copy.png) (a widely available 40% board). These boards use a R3 1.25u Enter in addition to a R3 1.25u Tab. See the Comments & remarks section below for more details.
- Similar to the proposed R3 1u Code key for ortho, Code is an appropriate legend here because it's generic and can fill many roles (Fn, Ctrl, Enter...).
- Action points: Add R3 1.25u Code or Fn to 40s.
- Kit looks good otherwise!
Comments & remarks
- The following 40% boards can be outfitted by purchasing Icon Mods in addition to Ortho & 40's:
- Prime_E (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2016/1211/products/Prime_E_listing_grande.jpg) (uses six 1.25u keys in total)
- Equinox (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0238/7342/1376/products/kPRMCz4_1024x1024@2x.jpg), Romeo (https://i.redd.it/frccm5e4rtn41.jpg) (uses 1.5u Backspace, 1.5u Tab, 1.75u Caps, 2.25u Enter)
- if R3 1.25u Code or Fn is added to 40s: Dimple (https://i.loli.net/2019/03/29/5c9daf903cad9.jpg), UT47.2 (https://groupbuys.mechboards.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/UT47-W-_0004_Layer-1-copy.png) (uses 1.5u Backspace)
Post by: voodoo6k on Fri, 21 August 2020, 09:37:30
Post by: voodoo6k on Sat, 22 August 2020, 12:30:51
Doing some research for one of my own 40s kits, I want to wait until I finish that to make sure I don't miss anything here. Granted, it's only a few keys so far ;)
Still waiting...
Hi there ;) Sorry to keep you waiting! I was away for a bit. Here you go:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/ojWQ5bD.jpg)
- Standalone orthogonal and 40% set (250 MOQ)
- R3 1u Tab/Ctrl/Enter, all minibars, MiniVan modifiers, etc.
- Alternative extention set: https://i.imgur.com/2jaf2Ep.jpg
Kitting suggestions
- Let's start with the biggest change proposition I have, which goes beyond just the Ortho & 40's kit. That is replacing Code with either System or Start, and then changing R3 1u Ctrl to Code in the 40s kit, as we've discussed previously.
- I believe you've said (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.msg2926800#msg2926800) that you aren't a fan of Code. That's good, because I think Code doesn't make (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=101960.msg2803194#msg2803194) sense (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=104460.msg2870032#msg2870032) as an OS key legend.
- Lenovo has a history of using Start (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wdAAAOSwT4pdYk5w/s-l640.jpg) as an OS key legend on their standalone ThinkPad keyboards. Start molds exist in both 1.25u and 1u; GMK DMG (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1679/2319/products/GMK_DMG_basekit_181109-2_1200x1200.jpg?v=1572646308) introduced them. I don't think that a 1.5u Start mold exists, but this isn't a problem as GMK ThinkCaps doesn't have textual 1.5u OS keys, only ♢.
- The other option is System, which exists in 1.25u (introduced by GMK Yugo (https://i.imgur.com/k0fgkdF.png)) and 1u as Sys (one of Cherry's OG molds). System is a good legend choice since OS keys do system-specific actions.
- As mentioned previously in the thread, R3 1u Code will allow the key to cover for Shift, Caps and Fn, in addition to Ctrl. An approximate usage distribution for these keys can be found here (https://i.imgur.com/OVofoyd.png) (sans Fn as that wasn't included in the survey (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=102205.msg2806656#msg2806656), but rest assured that that key is also used).
- Action points: Change 1.25u Code legends to Start or System, and change 1u Code to Start or Sys, in the TKL and 40s kits (keep 1.5u Code in 40s as this is a generic key). Afterwards, change R3 1u Ctrl to Code in 40s kit.
- The second R4 1u Fn key can be removed.
- Most ortho boards use at most 3 layer keys (Lower, Raise, Fn). Some layouts (including the Planck default one (https://i.redd.it/5a129uawmycx.png)) have a dedicated “config” key (e.g. for backlight), but a single Fn covers for that.
- Some layouts use two layer/config/other keys alongside Lower and Raise. Meta covers for this as it's a generic legend.
- Pretty much no layouts use two Fn keys that do the same thing, which renders the second Fn key fairly useless.
- I based this analysis on various Planck, Preonic, Boardwalk, XD75 user layouts found on Google Images (https://www.google.com/search?q=planck+layout&tbm=isch), the r/mk (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/search?q=planck%20layout&restrict_sr=1) and OLKB (https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/search?q=planck%20layout&restrict_sr=1) subreddits, QMK keymap repos (https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/planck/keymaps) and the Plank EZ keymap repo (https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/planck-ez/search), as well as discussions with other ortho users in the 40% Discord.
- Action points: Remove second R4 1u Fn from the 40s kit.
- Move accent 1u spacekeys to the Spacebars kit.
- 2u space is at least as popular as 2× 1u space on ortho layouts. Additionally, 2u space is used by some staggered 40% boards. Despite this, there is no accent 2u space in the 40s kit, only 1u's.
- Having accent 1u spacekeys in Spacebars would:
- reduce the size of the 40s kit by two keys;
- make the Spacebars and Extension kits fully symmetric in terms of offered split spacekeys;
- also allow Alice users to have an accent 1u spacekey (a use case which I mentioned in our previous discussion, here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.msg2926850#msg2926850) and here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.msg2926890#msg2926890)).
- Action points: Move both blue 1u spacekeys from 40s to Spacebars.
- Add R3 1.25u Code or Fn.
- R3 1.25u is a very common key on staggered 40% boards, but not all users like to put Tab there (which is currently the only option offered in the kit). Some use Fn, some use Ctrl, and so on.
- Additionally, if this key is added, two more boards will be able to be covered: Dimple (https://i.loli.net/2019/03/29/5c9daf903cad9.jpg) and UT47.2 (https://groupbuys.mechboards.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/UT47-W-_0004_Layer-1-copy.png) (a widely available 40% board). These boards use a R3 1.25u Enter in addition to a R3 1.25u Tab. See the Comments & remarks section below for more details.
- Similar to the proposed R3 1u Code key for ortho, Code is an appropriate legend here because it's generic and can fill many roles (Fn, Ctrl, Enter...).
- Action points: Add R3 1.25u Code or Fn to 40s.
- Kit looks good otherwise!
Comments & remarks
- The following 40% boards can be outfitted by purchasing Icon Mods in addition to Ortho & 40's:
- Prime_E (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2016/1211/products/Prime_E_listing_grande.jpg) (uses six 1.25u keys in total)
- Equinox (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0238/7342/1376/products/kPRMCz4_1024x1024@2x.jpg), Romeo (https://i.redd.it/frccm5e4rtn41.jpg) (uses 1.5u Backspace, 1.5u Tab, 1.75u Caps, 2.25u Enter)
- if R3 1.25u Code or Fn is added to 40s: Dimple (https://i.loli.net/2019/03/29/5c9daf903cad9.jpg), UT47.2 (https://groupbuys.mechboards.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/UT47-W-_0004_Layer-1-copy.png) (uses 1.5u Backspace)
Good points. My answer is simple: I agree with almost everything.
- I'm not decided on System vs Code. I personally like System, but I think most people are used to Code as the most neutral "system" key. Another argument for Code is that it fits on both 1.25u and 1.5u keys, while being aesthetically pleasing. Start is just aweful. As for ortho, thinking about adding R3 1u Code... though from the comments, most people are fine with Ctrl.
- We could remove one R4 1u Fn. The reason for it is mostly the Vortex Core, which uses two (or three) Fn keys. Perhaps its popularity has waned over the years. In general, Fn is one of the only keys that looks good when repeated.
- (2) x blue R4C 1u's: I think it makes sense in the Ortho set because:
- There's not enough blue accents (without them). Otherwise, additional blue Lower/Raise is redundant;
- You can use them to either replace or together with Lower/Raise, as spacekeys or other;
- Bonus: ortho users don't have to buy Spacebars kit for two small keys.
- Lastly, adding R3 1.25u Ctrl or Fn or Code makes sense. It's just a matter of pricing. As is, Ortho & 40's set is already one or two keys over budget. It's just too bad that there's no other option in the other kits.
Post by: nevin on Sat, 22 August 2020, 13:32:01
If you're transitioning to ortho, 14 is a much easier transition than going down to 12.
- love the colorway though.
Post by: voodoo6k on Sat, 22 August 2020, 13:44:05
Wish more ortho kits supported larger split orthos. (another 2u key, and enough keys to populate 14 columns instead of just 12).
If you're transitioning to ortho, 14 is a much easier transition than going down to 12.
- love the colorway though.
I know... I wish I could add another 2u, but you can choose your preferred colour in either Spacebars or Extension kit.
As mentioned in the post above, we're already stretching the budget on that Ortho & 40's set. You have to consider that even when getting both Ortho + (Spacebars or Extension), it will still be much cheaper and more compatible than the traditional GMK base set with minimal 40's kit.
Post by: nevin on Sat, 22 August 2020, 15:17:17
will wait to see what final pricing ends up being.
Post by: voodoo6k on Sat, 22 August 2020, 19:21:31
wishful thinking i guess...
will wait to see what final pricing ends up being.
Out of curiosity and for future reference, what 14-column friendly keys would you say are missing, apart from the 2u spacebar?
Post by: konstantin on Mon, 24 August 2020, 08:14:36
Good points. My answer is simple: I agree with almost everything.
- I'm not decided on System vs Code. I personally like System, but I think most people are used to Code as the most neutral "system" key. Another argument for Code is that it fits on both 1.25u and 1.5u keys, while being aesthetically pleasing. Start is just aweful. As for ortho, thinking about adding R3 1u Code... though from the comments, most people are fine with Ctrl.
- We could remove one R4 1u Fn. The reason for it is mostly the Vortex Core, which uses two (or three) Fn keys. Perhaps its popularity has waned over the years. In general, Fn is one of the only keys that looks good when repeated.
- (2) x blue R4C 1u's: I think it makes sense in the Ortho set because:
- There's not enough blue accents (without them). Otherwise, additional blue Lower/Raise is redundant;
- You can use them to either replace or together with Lower/Raise, as spacekeys or other;
- Bonus: ortho users don't have to buy Spacebars kit for two small keys.
- Lastly, adding R3 1.25u Ctrl or Fn or Code makes sense. It's just a matter of pricing. As is, Ortho & 40's set is already one or two keys over budget. It's just too bad that there's no other option in the other kits.
Why do you say that people are used to Code? Code is fairly rare compared to Super (unless you consider Super to not be “neutral”?). Taking a look at all GMK sets ran this year (using KeycapLendar (https://keycaplendar.firebaseapp.com/?page=previous)) gives the following breakdown:
- Super – 31 sets
- Code – 12 sets
- System/Sys – 6 sets
- Win – 1 set
- Novelty or icon – 8 sets
Imo, if you prefer System then go for it — its popularity will grow in time if designers like you choose to use it :)
Another thing to keep in mind is that this is specific to GMK. If you look at KAT sets, pretty much all of them use Sys. So it's not like Sys(tem) is a foreign legend to people or that they aren't accustomed to it.
Other than that, I think that exchanging the second R4 1u Fn for a R3 1.25u key is a very reasonable change, and definitely one that you should make. The Vortex Core use case is covered by the Meta key (the second “Fn” key on the Core is Pn, not a second Fn) plus Lower/Raise, so a second Fn is actually not required. Even if it was, you have to keep in mind that Vortex Core is not a very popular keyboard. On the other hand, R3 1.25u is a standard staggered 40% key. Adding a generic key in this row/size not only gives additional legend options to users who need it, but also adds physical compatibility for certain boards which is currently missing (2× R3 1.25u).
Post by: therealemanuelmartinez on Mon, 24 August 2020, 09:17:35
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: ideus on Mon, 24 August 2020, 09:24:20
Post by: nevin on Mon, 24 August 2020, 12:05:31
wishful thinking i guess...
will wait to see what final pricing ends up being.
Out of curiosity and for future reference, what 14-column friendly keys would you say are missing, apart from the 2u spacebar?
after looking at it again, looks like it would be covered. you're right, actually more than most, even a couple blanks and plenty of R4 to populate the bottom two rows.
as far as boards i was talking about... keeb.io viterbi, ergodash, orbit, 5x7 manuform, etc. larger than 5x6 split orthos.
Post by: Curin Derwin on Thu, 27 August 2020, 07:22:38
Post by: ideus on Thu, 27 August 2020, 09:34:31
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 27 August 2020, 13:35:56
The Icon Mods kit is missing the Esc key in its icon version. :(
Isn't that a Mac thing?
Post by: ideus on Thu, 27 August 2020, 17:47:14
The Icon Mods kit is missing the Esc key in its icon version. :(
Isn't that a Mac thing?
I am a PC user and I have never used a Mac, so I know nothing about Macs. I have this example of a previous Icon Mod kit.
(https://i.imgur.com/TIHed7i.jpg)
Post by: DomAndretti on Thu, 27 August 2020, 22:36:02
Post by: voodoo6k on Fri, 28 August 2020, 12:50:02
Are you thinking about offering a led cut out on the caps lock? either way i am buying these when they make it to GB. If we fill out the IC form is there anyway to receive an email when these hit GB? I do not want to miss out on these.
Yes, we'll send an email to those who filled out the form (https://forms.gle/3m31h6g1t6ykKEQD8) before the GB goes live.
I post updates across all platforms: geekhack, Deskthority, keebtalk, Drop, reddit, Instagram, my GB portal yakk.shop and our Discord server (https://discord.gg/zVgCQyK), and probably others I'm forgetting. Discord and geekhack have the most up-to-date info.
About the windowed Caps Lock, GMK Dolch R5 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=107843.0) (ends Sept. 4) has an Extension kit containing plenty of good stuff, such as R3/windowed keys, F13, and so forth:
(https://i.imgur.com/p92FDp7.png)
Dolch R5 and ThinkCaps are complementary because we use same coloured modifiers (N9/CP). Bear in mind that Dolch R5 has a R5 bottom row...
Post by: nevin on Fri, 28 August 2020, 13:18:32
The Icon Mods kit is missing the Esc key in its icon version. :(
Isn't that a Mac thing?
I am a PC user and I have never used a Mac, so I know nothing about Macs. I have this example of a previous Icon Mod kit.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/TIHed7i.jpg)
that esc icon made it's first mac appearance on the apple adjustable keyboard (icon was not on the keycap, but beside it on the case). it was later part of the "think different" keyset and i'm sure has been used in a couple mac-centric sets since.
- also the modifier key right next to the spacebar is the icon for apple's "option" key (alt on pc)
Post by: ideus on Fri, 28 August 2020, 17:04:15
The Icon Mods kit is missing the Esc key in its icon version. :(
Isn't that a Mac thing?
I am a PC user and I have never used a Mac, so I know nothing about Macs. I have this example of a previous Icon Mod kit.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/TIHed7i.jpg)
that esc icon made it's first mac appearance on the apple adjustable keyboard (icon was not on the keycap, but beside it on the case). it was later part of the "think different" keyset and i'm sure has been used in a couple mac-centric sets since.
- also the modifier key right next to the spacebar is the icon for apple's "option" key (alt on pc)
This ESC key is just the icon equivalent for full icon sets. It is the first time that it was related to macs, and I have been around some time to tell.
(https://i.imgur.com/hNI6syL.jpg)
Post by: konstantin on Fri, 28 August 2020, 17:09:04
- also the modifier key right next to the spacebar is the icon for apple's "option" key (alt on pc)
Actually, given the orientation, that's the standard Alt symbol (https://unicode-table.com/en/2387/) (just without an arrow). It would be Apple's Option symbol (https://unicode-table.com/en/2325/) if it were the opposite orientation.
Post by: voodoo6k on Fri, 04 September 2020, 11:08:37
Last day to join GMK Dolch R5 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=107843.0), if you need the Extension kit compatible (in part) with GMK ThinkCaps:
(https://i.imgur.com/p92FDp7.png)
Post by: colonelpanic on Sat, 05 September 2020, 20:14:44
Post by: IBMweMissU on Mon, 07 September 2020, 00:57:41
Is there a projected GB date? I’ve been purchasing parts over the past months exclusively for these keycaps.
Haha, me too !
Post by: Cloods on Sat, 19 September 2020, 03:03:46
Post by: Alchemist Keyboards on Sun, 20 September 2020, 12:04:52
i was 100% expecting a set made of thinking emojis. Cant tell if i'm disappointed that its not or relieved
Definitely relieved, this set looks dope.
Post by: itbesandrodoe on Mon, 21 September 2020, 08:35:34
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 28 September 2020, 08:39:20
(https://i.imgur.com/Doyh61Q.jpg)
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/j1bx8n/ic_gmk_thinkcaps/
Post by: Darthbaggins on Mon, 28 September 2020, 09:38:35
Post by: BITespresso on Mon, 28 September 2020, 14:03:37
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 28 September 2020, 14:12:44
Very nice set! I‘m interested. Just filled out the form.
Excellent. Thank you
Post by: pngu on Mon, 28 September 2020, 14:17:03
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 28 September 2020, 14:18:50
Do you have any artisan collabs coming up with regards to nipples? I'd buy a rose gold rama nipple.
Haven't looked into it, but I'm sure our US vendor will...
Post by: Bitmxp on Mon, 28 September 2020, 15:08:09
Post by: dddeeaatthhh on Mon, 28 September 2020, 20:10:02
i thought for sure this was going to be the kit to finally give it to me.
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 28 September 2020, 20:13:54
has adding an R4 'page up' key already been talked about?
i thought for sure this was going to be the kit to finally give it to me.
No, what board's it used on?
Edit: Okay you mean like on the TP... Hmm... let me review the forms first.
Post by: Jo_hannes on Tue, 29 September 2020, 00:19:52
Again, congrats on the excellent work (OMG the renders!)!
Best
Johannes
Post by: dakatisshort on Tue, 29 September 2020, 09:38:06
Post by: konstantin on Tue, 29 September 2020, 10:22:28
has adding an R4 'page up' key already been talked about?
i thought for sure this was going to be the kit to finally give it to me.
How would this key be put to use on a mechanical keyboard?
Post by: William_S_Jones on Tue, 29 September 2020, 10:28:05
for a stand-alone 40s kitSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: jooobe on Tue, 29 September 2020, 11:08:13
Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
Post by: dddeeaatthhh on Tue, 29 September 2020, 11:25:01
has adding an R4 'page up' key already been talked about?
i thought for sure this was going to be the kit to finally give it to me.
How would this key be put to use on a mechanical keyboard?
pretty much any layout with an arrow cluster and 1u keys on either side of the 'up' arrow
i know this example is probably pretty specific to me, but i use a macro pad that has an arrow cluster with the two keys on either side of the 'up' arrow as pgUp/pgDn. my specific pad is set up for text/code editing, but it's also useful for browsing the web.
the first thing i missed when switching from using just a thinkpad to a desk with an external keyboard full time was being able to have those keys there.
but setting aside my personal preference, if for no other reason, this is a Thinkpad themed set, pretty much every thinkpad in the past ten years has had that setup
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.quikfixlaptopkeys.com%2Fproducts%2Fkb%2Flenovo_t431s.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
Post by: ideus on Tue, 29 September 2020, 11:39:01
has adding an R4 'page up' key already been talked about?
i thought for sure this was going to be the kit to finally give it to me.
How would this key be put to use on a mechanical keyboard?
pretty much any layout with an arrow cluster and 1u keys on either side of the 'up' arrow
i know this example is probably pretty specific to me, but i use a macro pad that has an arrow cluster with the two keys on either side of the 'up' arrow as pgUp/pgDn. my specific pad is set up for text/code editing, but it's also useful for browsing the web.
the first thing i missed when switching from using just a thinkpad to a desk with an external keyboard full time was being able to have those keys there.
but setting aside my personal preference, if for no other reason, this is a Thinkpad themed set, pretty much every thinkpad in the past ten years has had that setupShow Image(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.quikfixlaptopkeys.com%2Fproducts%2Fkb%2Flenovo_t431s.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
I cannot think on any mechanical keyboard with such layout. I also have my thinkpad in front of me and I may say that I have never used those keys.
Post by: dddeeaatthhh on Tue, 29 September 2020, 12:55:33
I cannot think on any mechanical keyboard with such layout. I also have my thinkpad in front of me and I may say that I have never used those keys.
i had this layout on a dz60 for a while
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dhresource.com%2F0x0s%2Ff2-albu-g1-M01-2D-E7-rBVaGFoQB-mAcoybAAE6bmQ66A8837.jpg)
also any ortho layout
Post by: voodoo6k on Tue, 29 September 2020, 13:14:57
I cannot think on any mechanical keyboard with such layout. I also have my thinkpad in front of me and I may say that I have never used those keys.
i had this layout on a dz60 for a whileShow Image(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dhresource.com%2F0x0s%2Ff2-albu-g1-M01-2D-E7-rBVaGFoQB-mAcoybAAE6bmQ66A8837.jpg)
also any ortho layout
I get where you're coming from, but that's quite a niche thing...
Since the nav keys were omitted from the ortho set, I don't think it would get much usage. I'd add a R3 Home (in TKL or Extension) before the R4 Pg Up.
Post by: base on Tue, 29 September 2020, 13:15:29
(https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/QrCTkNjnIqSpeeGb.full)
Post by: voodoo6k on Tue, 29 September 2020, 13:45:19
I know it's pretty late in the game as far as this IC goes, but has there been any thought/discussion around either a full mod-colored F-row or blue pad-printed front legends for SysRq & Break (or more)?
[...]
Yes. At one point, I wanted this set to be more "authentic" (relative to what? all TP's are different) but anticipated the huge headache that that would be. :p
For example, if the 60% mods were black, then people would be asking for the accent keys only... because WoB is a thing... but we're already offering that. ;)
The "authentic 2000's TP" add-on will have to be for another round, I'm afraid.
Post by: Fjällräv on Tue, 29 September 2020, 13:49:23
Post by: base on Tue, 29 September 2020, 13:50:44
I know it's pretty late in the game as far as this IC goes, but has there been any thought/discussion around either a full mod-colored F-row or blue pad-printed front legends for SysRq & Break (or more)?
[...]
Yes. At one point, I wanted this set to be more "authentic" (relative to what? all TP's are different) but anticipated the huge headache that that would be. :p
For example, if the 60% mods were black, then people would be asking for the accent keys only... because WoB is a thing... but we're already offering that. ;)
The "authentic 2000's TP" add-on will have to be for another round, I'm afraid.
Yeah I figured I was getting greedy, but gave it a shot, lol. Would definitely be in for a future "authentic" kit if it ever comes to pass! I'm just so psyched that the standalone accent kit is a thing, many thanks for that decision!!
Post by: beyonddc on Wed, 30 September 2020, 09:39:47
Post by: Oni74 on Wed, 30 September 2020, 10:55:07
I personally have accumulated 3 GMK sets' alphas without mods to match them with (Ex: I've unused Oblivion alphas because I also got the hagoromo alphas), and ThinkCaps mods would be a fantastic match for them. Would it even be possible to offer a mods-only kit? (Everything in the TKL sans the alphas). Totally understand if you're not willing.
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 30 September 2020, 11:41:14
First of all, a big thank you for proposing a TKL kit as default. I feel too many set designers opt for full kits even though a large percentage of the community are in the 60%-80% range and do not need to cover numpad. (IMHO, I personally see it as a money-grab despite all the rationale/excuses I've heard)
I personally have accumulated 3 GMK sets' alphas without mods to match them with (Ex: I've unused Oblivion alphas because I also got the hagoromo alphas), and ThinkCaps mods would be a fantastic match for them. Would it even be possible to offer a mods-only kit? (Everything in the TKL sans the alphas). Totally understand if you're not willing.
The stories you hear are true... It's because of GMK pricing that you usually see larger base sets; it's much more expensive per key to split up the set into smaller kits. Not a money grab, imo.
The reason we're attempting it here is because the set is neutral enough (as far as colours go) to expect a number of users getting it for their standalone numpads. Whereas another more colourful set might not be as popular for this application.
So, no, there is no intention of splitting the alphas.
Post by: Oni74 on Wed, 30 September 2020, 12:50:10
First of all, a big thank you for proposing a TKL kit as default. I feel too many set designers opt for full kits even though a large percentage of the community are in the 60%-80% range and do not need to cover numpad. (IMHO, I personally see it as a money-grab despite all the rationale/excuses I've heard)
I personally have accumulated 3 GMK sets' alphas without mods to match them with (Ex: I've unused Oblivion alphas because I also got the hagoromo alphas), and ThinkCaps mods would be a fantastic match for them. Would it even be possible to offer a mods-only kit? (Everything in the TKL sans the alphas). Totally understand if you're not willing.
The stories you hear are true... It's because of GMK pricing that you usually see larger base sets; it's much more expensive per key to split up the set into smaller kits. Not a money grab, imo.
The reason we're attempting it here is because the set is neutral enough (as far as colours go) to expect a number of users getting it for their standalone numpads. Whereas another more colourful set might not be as popular for this application.
So, no, there is no intention of splitting the alphas.
Got it. Thanks for the quick response and clarification. Still interested in the set - haven't decided on whether to pick up a TKL kit or Icon Mods + Novelties. Let's see how it goes!
Post by: voodoo6k on Wed, 30 September 2020, 12:54:34
First of all, a big thank you for proposing a TKL kit as default. I feel too many set designers opt for full kits even though a large percentage of the community are in the 60%-80% range and do not need to cover numpad. (IMHO, I personally see it as a money-grab despite all the rationale/excuses I've heard)
I personally have accumulated 3 GMK sets' alphas without mods to match them with (Ex: I've unused Oblivion alphas because I also got the hagoromo alphas), and ThinkCaps mods would be a fantastic match for them. Would it even be possible to offer a mods-only kit? (Everything in the TKL sans the alphas). Totally understand if you're not willing.
The stories you hear are true... It's because of GMK pricing that you usually see larger base sets; it's much more expensive per key to split up the set into smaller kits. Not a money grab, imo.
The reason we're attempting it here is because the set is neutral enough (as far as colours go) to expect a number of users getting it for their standalone numpads. Whereas another more colourful set might not be as popular for this application.
So, no, there is no intention of splitting the alphas.
Got it. Thanks for the quick response and clarification. Still interested in the set - haven't decided on whether to pick up a TKL kit or Icon Mods + Novelties. Let's see how it goes!
Np.
FYI, it may not be exactly what you're looking for, but Icon + RGB mods make a complete 60% modifier set..
Post by: Oni74 on Wed, 30 September 2020, 13:23:57
First of all, a big thank you for proposing a TKL kit as default. I feel too many set designers opt for full kits even though a large percentage of the community are in the 60%-80% range and do not need to cover numpad. (IMHO, I personally see it as a money-grab despite all the rationale/excuses I've heard)
I personally have accumulated 3 GMK sets' alphas without mods to match them with (Ex: I've unused Oblivion alphas because I also got the hagoromo alphas), and ThinkCaps mods would be a fantastic match for them. Would it even be possible to offer a mods-only kit? (Everything in the TKL sans the alphas). Totally understand if you're not willing.
The stories you hear are true... It's because of GMK pricing that you usually see larger base sets; it's much more expensive per key to split up the set into smaller kits. Not a money grab, imo.
The reason we're attempting it here is because the set is neutral enough (as far as colours go) to expect a number of users getting it for their standalone numpads. Whereas another more colourful set might not be as popular for this application.
So, no, there is no intention of splitting the alphas.
Got it. Thanks for the quick response and clarification. Still interested in the set - haven't decided on whether to pick up a TKL kit or Icon Mods + Novelties. Let's see how it goes!
Np.
FYI, it may not be exactly what you're looking for, but Icon + RGB mods make a complete 60% modifier set..
Yeap - considering that too. All i've got are 65% and 75% boards so I will definitely need the novelties to cover my right-most column.
can't help but think there would be a bunch of community people who'd just want the mods - maybe a Mods-only gb with various colors would be nice. It would certainly make 2020 suck less. *chuckle*
Post by: Jo_hannes on Fri, 09 October 2020, 04:30:12
Post by: WiseLucas on Sat, 17 October 2020, 13:56:37
Post by: ideus on Mon, 02 November 2020, 08:48:41
Post by: Jo_hannes on Mon, 02 November 2020, 14:32:53
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 02 November 2020, 17:11:22
I wonder the same: When is this happening?
November 16.
Sorry, I'll post the details at a later time.
Post by: ideus on Mon, 02 November 2020, 18:09:06
I wonder the same: When is this happening?
November 16.
Sorry, I'll post the details at a later time.
Awesome. Thank you very much for the information.
Post by: IBMweMissU on Mon, 02 November 2020, 23:17:26
Post by: ideus on Tue, 03 November 2020, 08:28:25
Post by: smithbob on Tue, 03 November 2020, 10:10:49
Post by: ideus on Tue, 03 November 2020, 10:16:27
is it going to be on Drop.com?
I hope not.
Post by: voodoo6k on Tue, 03 November 2020, 10:48:31
Am I missing something, or the pricing has not been announced yet?
I'm currently having internet issues at home so I will post vendors and prices once that's resolved.
Post by: hottrout on Tue, 03 November 2020, 15:41:56
Post by: paperassgasket on Sat, 07 November 2020, 23:19:13
Post by: tech.spaghetti on Sun, 08 November 2020, 08:35:04
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 08 November 2020, 11:23:32
I fear that multiple sets of this will be required. I have dug out a Cherry G80-3000 and a Cherry 1800 from storage just to put these on them.
Excellent :thumb:
Any news on vendors yet? We're almost a week out.
Vendors are YAKK shop (myself for Canada), CandyKeys, Dixie Mech along with Daily Clack, zFrontier and IlumKB (last three still to be confirmed)
Please guys add italian support :(
Italian and other Romance languages are not typically supported. For example, GMK Avanguardia (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=105981.0) is an upcoming Italian-designed keyset with no Italian support.
Post by: Tyson on Sun, 08 November 2020, 11:36:50
I fear that multiple sets of this will be required. I have dug out a Cherry G80-3000 and a Cherry 1800 from storage just to put these on them.
Excellent :thumb:Any news on vendors yet? We're almost a week out.
Vendors are YAKK shop (myself for Canada), CandyKeys, Dixie Mech along with Daily Clack, zFrontier and IlumKBPlease guys add italian support :(
Italian and other Romance languages are not typically supported. For example, GMK Avanguardia (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=105981.0) is an upcoming Italian-designed keyset with no Italian support.
Awesome to see this has vendors! You might want to add them to the made top thread for people to see!
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 08 November 2020, 11:59:08
I fear that multiple sets of this will be required. I have dug out a Cherry G80-3000 and a Cherry 1800 from storage just to put these on them.
Excellent :thumb:Any news on vendors yet? We're almost a week out.
Vendors are YAKK shop (myself for Canada), CandyKeys, Dixie Mech along with Daily Clack, zFrontier and IlumKBPlease guys add italian support :(
Italian and other Romance languages are not typically supported. For example, GMK Avanguardia (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=105981.0) is an upcoming Italian-designed keyset with no Italian support.
Awesome to see this has vendors! You might want to add them to the made top thread for people to see!
Thanks! I'd like to keep this GB underground... for OG's only. /s
;D
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 09 November 2020, 09:47:59
It requires an extra R3 1.25u (Fn), but since it also requires the 1.5u Backspace (Icon mods), I'm on the fence about including it.
Dimple
(https://i.loli.net/2019/03/29/5c9daf903cad9.jpg)
UT47.2
(https://groupbuys.mechboards.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/UT47-W-_0004_Layer-1-copy.png)
Post by: smshark on Mon, 09 November 2020, 13:10:47
Post by: ideus on Mon, 09 November 2020, 18:10:06
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 09 November 2020, 18:18:53
Five days remaining and there is no prices yet?
Prices will be posted this week...
If that helps you, TKL and Ortho will most likely be $110 and $115, respectively.
Post by: ideus on Mon, 09 November 2020, 18:29:55
Five days remaining and there is no prices yet?
Prices will be posted this week...
If that helps you, TKL and Ortho will most likely be $110 and $115, respectively.
That may help all people interested. Thank you.
Post by: voodoo6k on Tue, 10 November 2020, 09:19:11
(https://i.imgur.com/0Iuw5ch.jpg)
Thanks to CandyKeys for their full support :)
Post by: ideus on Tue, 10 November 2020, 09:29:21
Post by: voodoo6k on Tue, 10 November 2020, 09:32:23
The NordeUK's legends will be CP?
Yes, CP legends everywhere except Accent (WS1).
Post by: ideus on Tue, 10 November 2020, 10:40:36
The NordeUK's legends will be CP?
Yes, CP legends everywhere except Accent (WS1).
Stick with the classic is a good choice.
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 12 November 2020, 09:38:39
Do you prefer USD or CAD prices?
- USD prices would be the exact same as the US vendor's
- CAD prices would include a small conversion fee (though not as high as Paypal's 4%)
For my previous group buy, DSA Scientific, we went with USD because 1. the manufacturer is in the USA and 2. it gives the buyers the option to use whatever no-fee USD credit card they might possess (versus something like 2.5% fee).
That said, buyers on YAKK Discord server want CAD and I'm leaning towards that.
Post by: ab042896 on Thu, 12 November 2020, 10:26:21
Do you prefer USD or CAD prices?I think so long as the price values show which currency is being used. Nothing worse than shopping with the impression that you're shopping with one currency only to discover at checkout that it was another.
Post by: voodoo6k on Thu, 12 November 2020, 11:20:37
Do you prefer USD or CAD prices?I think so long as the price values show which currency is being used. Nothing worse than shopping with the impression that you're shopping with one currency only to discover at checkout that it was another.
Yes I will label it C$ and Paypal should confirm it as well.
As usual Paypal payment will be authorized but only captured when the GB ends.
Post by: ab042896 on Thu, 12 November 2020, 11:46:46
Yes I will label it C$ and Paypal should confirm it as well.
As usual Paypal payment will be authorized but only captured when the GB ends.
Seems reasonable to me.
Post by: voodoo6k on Sat, 14 November 2020, 12:07:40
1. Pricing has been set, however GMK has increased their prices since we got our last quote. We're looking everything over.
2. We've made the decision not to offer pre-drilled G-H-B keys for TEX Yoda (the Extension kit still includes extra G-H-B keys for DIY'ers). TEX keyboards has graciously offered to CNC them at $2 per key, but the logistics overhead is too much: the procedure requires extra keys to account for errors; shipping from GMK → a vendor → TEX → a vendor → other vendors → buyers is too risky; unambiguously setting up the product pages is also a challenge; ETA is already 8 months, adding to that a probable 2+ months, while vendors hold on to several orders, could turn into a never-ending nightmare... :)
Since only 12 form responses were explicitly for Yoda, I think the simplest solution is to let buyers send their keys directly to TEX (Taiwan). DIY modification is also an option, perhaps we could publish a how-to guide for cutting/filing or constructing a jig.
Further, I will be sending some of my own G-H-B extras to TEX. Once the keys are drilled and in my possession, I will QC and sell them as extras on yakk.shop. This is by far the safest way to proceed, imo. Other vendors are free to do the same.
3. Lastly, we added an extra 2u spacebar to the Ortho & 40's set. Enjoy! ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/6x0CxOv.jpg)
Post by: voodoo6k on Sat, 14 November 2020, 12:09:09
Post by: psxndc on Sat, 14 November 2020, 12:21:36
Quote from: voodoo6k link=topic=106305.msg2979868#msg2979868 d
3. Lastly, we added an [b
3. Lastly, we added an [b
extra 2u spacebar[/b] to the Ortho & 40's set. Enjoy! ;)
Damn, this set is fantastic. Thank you!
Post by: paperassgasket on Sat, 14 November 2020, 12:23:32
3. Lastly, we added an extra 2u spacebar to the Ortho & 40's set.40's set. Enjoy! ;)
Oh very nice!
Sucks about the pricing increases but GMK is ramping up production so I'm sure there are inherent costs with trying to keep up with demand.
Good luck with the group buy! Been waiting on this for what feels like forever so it's nice to see this finally coming to fruition.
Post by: ideus on Sat, 14 November 2020, 12:42:09
3. Lastly, we added an extra 2u spacebar to the Ortho & 40's set.40's set. Enjoy! ;)
Oh very nice!
Sucks about the pricing increases but GMK is ramping up production so I'm sure there are inherent costs with trying to keep up with demand.
Good luck with the group buy! Been waiting on this for what feels like forever so it's nice to see this finally coming to fruition.
Higher production volumes mean a better scale economy, they should reduce the prices, not increase them. GMK is full of surprises. If they were an automotive components manufacturer they should be in Chapter 11, due to the quality issues and high prices.
Post by: voodoo6k on Sun, 15 November 2020, 12:58:05
Quick, I should say something...... The GB post is waiting approval from the mods and this thread will be locked soon!
Post by: psxndc on Sun, 15 November 2020, 13:01:37
Post by: menuhin on Sun, 15 November 2020, 14:12:51
3. Lastly, we added an extra 2u spacebar to the Ortho & 40's set.40's set. Enjoy! ;)
Oh very nice!
Sucks about the pricing increases but GMK is ramping up production so I'm sure there are inherent costs with trying to keep up with demand.
Good luck with the group buy! Been waiting on this for what feels like forever so it's nice to see this finally coming to fruition.
Higher production volumes mean a better scale economy, they should reduce the prices, not increase them. GMK is full of surprises...
+1
Post by: ideus on Mon, 16 November 2020, 09:34:17
Post by: voodoo6k on Mon, 16 November 2020, 09:35:36
Is the GB approved yet?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=109588.0