Author Topic: whats wrong with the left?  (Read 20712 times)

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Offline wellington1869

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whats wrong with the left?
« on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 23:46:31 »
serious question.

where did all the conspiracy theorists and democracy haters, who have apparently taken over the 'left' in our popular culture and politics (e.g. huffpo and dailykos), come from?

It wasnt long ago that the 'left' defended democracy and human rights, respected things like evidence, and fought against religious fascism.

what changed? how did it change so radically in such a short time?

help me see a difference between neo-nazis and today's left. Because I cant.
« Last Edit: Sat, 11 September 2010, 23:49:56 by wellington1869 »

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Offline audioave10

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whats wrong with the left?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:01:09 »
I think Ripster may have slightly over-simplified the answer. LOL

sorry Welly, I hate politics!
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #2 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:06:52 »
Quote from: kishy;222273
I've found it's typically conservatives who go nuts with conspiracy theories, FWIW.

i find as many leftists engage in them as enthusiastically. 9/11 "truthers" are a great recent example.  

Academic Leftists in general today see modernity itself as a 'western conspiracy' (!). Certainly leftists float all kinds of conspiracy theories about the jews controlling either capitalism (as marx and later hitler had it) or media or worse.

Leftists regularly engage in a religious apocolyptic vision of total war whcih they feel is necessary to 'clean the slate' before some kind of worldwide utopianism breaks out spontaneously, if only the 'single source of evil' (jews, america, democracy, 'the west'', 'the cia', etc) can be erased.  All other evil in the world is seen merely as a reaction to our 'original sin' of some kind.  All this is classic conspiratorial thought.

Quote

Democracy hating comes naturally with an evaluation of how defective it is in the US.


ya, but kishy its one thing to criticize in order to make it more perfect; its another to criticize in order to delegitimize it altogether. What I see in so many 'leftists' today is the delegitimization of the theory and practice of democracy, altogether.  Ie, seriously anti-democratic.  This happens in both indirect and direct ways.

indirect: "american democracy is defective so who are you to say so-and-so muslim regime needs democracy?" [ie, implicitly thus defending a religious-fascistic regime by preventing any criticism of it. Those who criticize it are then seen either as 'western imperialists' or as 'muslim traitors' - exactly as the fascistic regime would see it]. Keep in mind these are "leftists" doing this.

direct: democracy is just an imposition of 'western' values on the world and thus a form of 'imperialism'; other 'people' have 'their own systems' of social organization [for example, fascism, maoism, or islamism!] and we have to 'respect' that and those may in fact be better than democracy (mao makes the trains run on time!).
Keep in mind this is today's leftists saying things like this.

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Offline audioave10

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whats wrong with the left?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:10:58 »
that's more than left...that's the...

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Offline wellington1869

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whats wrong with the left?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:12:15 »
Quote from: audioave10;222279


sorry Welly, I hate politics!


;-) no worries bro ;-)  I chuckled too.

ya, what i worry about is how the looney left keeps taking over the left, just as the looney right keeps taking over the right.

and i dont see any difference between the looney left and the looney right, who together squeeze out and silence the vast sea of moderates in the center-left and center-right.

we've paid so much attention to the tea party, we raise alarms and we put them under microscopes. We ought to be doing the exact same thing to the looney left who are every bit as dangerous and supportive of fascism as far as I can see.

what i worry about is how the center-left and the center-right dont seem to have the tools with which to ward off this dual-infestation.
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:18:12 by wellington1869 »

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Offline Zalusithix

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whats wrong with the left?
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:12:34 »
Not being a "left-ist" or an anything-ist, I can't very well answer that question.

I do find it amusing though how people feel the need to be so in one camp or another. Personally, I hate our two party system where one side feels it must always be diametrically opposed to the other on every damn issue that they can come up with. Great example of how *not* to do a democracy IMO.

Offline audioave10

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« Reply #6 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:14:45 »
That's just how I feel. Its like being in a club and never agreeing with your rivals for ANY reason,
even if its good for the Country!
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #7 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:26:20 »
Quote from: Zalusithix;222284
Not being a "left-ist" or an anything-ist, I can't very well answer that question.

I do find it amusing though how people feel the need to be so in one camp or another. Personally, I hate our two party system where one side feels it must always be diametrically opposed to the other on every damn issue that they can come up with. Great example of how *not* to do a democracy IMO.


we dont have a parliamentary system like the UK where multiple-parties can take power via coalitions (which in turn encourages a blossoming of multiple parties). However that form of representative democracy has its own issues (such as a gridlock-times-10000 and regular dissolved parliaments).

so the two-party system has its problems but in truth the two parties function as 'umbrella' groups for a variety of interests, in effect the coalition process thus occurs before the election, in order to consolidate a majority of votes for the election.  A third party in our system will not necessarily solve anything (and may simply weaken moderates even further by splitting up votes - remember the ralph nader effect? It was devastating for the democrats when Gore ran).

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Offline wellington1869

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whats wrong with the left?
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:28:30 »
Quote from: ripster;222288
Welly, not sure why you're picking on Huffington.


i'm not picking on Ariana herself so much as her website, which increasingly has headlines that seem intended to be as alarmist and divisive as possible, a kind of drudge-report-of-the-left.  That site is also a relentless attacker of obama, which is fine, except that obama is about as centrist a president as we've had in a long, long time (despite tea party slogans to the contrary). Its a great sign that obama is able to piss off far-left sites like dailykos and huffpo.
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 September 2010, 01:24:33 by wellington1869 »

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Offline wellington1869

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whats wrong with the left?
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:34:33 »
but my question: how did the left get so conservative?  has leftist thinking become so unreflexive that they no longer even realize their contradictions and hypocrisies? I'm just constantly shocked at the kinds of conclusions 'my side' keeps arriving at, not at the fringe but in the mainstream of 'leftist' opinion.

the reactions to the 9/11 thread say a lot, I think.

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #10 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:53:04 »
Quote from: kishy;222294
Alright, so what we really have here are just "crazy people" in general. Not left, not right, just nuts.

well i'd agree with that except these folks identify themselves as 'left', do activism for 'the left', visit 'left' websites, and generally vote 'left'.
much like islam has an islamism problem, i'm afraid the left has a leftism problem. and just as muslims have to do something about it, so do we on the left. I guess calling out the consequences and contradictions of their approach and disowning them is a start.

Quote


True, and I'm not one to do that (say your system is faulty so you have no right to criticize others). I use Windows. Windows is, in many ways, inferior to Linux. However, I may bash Linux on faults it may have (perhaps things I view as flaws that other people view as positive attributes). Just because I use the faulty software does not eliminate my right to bash flaws in other software (be it actually superior or not).

ya, precisely. that whole argument about 'if you're not perfect you cant say anything about others' is some kind of warped biblical notion that we've picked up quite unthinkingly and deploy for all the wrong reasons.

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If today's leftists are as nuts as you suggest, perhaps I'm not a leftist and more towards the middle...

i'd argue we're both leftists -- but the left left us!  We're still standing here holding the banner.  We're not in error, they are.
but yea, to others today we probably appear as some kind of centrist. I'll claim to be a leftist till the day i die though. There's more than one type of leftism. (like the sane kind and the looney kind).

Quote

I could openly declare support for Communism (when implemented and maintained properly, as has never happened and never will) but that might hurt my sales.

you couldnt possibly have been a commie kishy. They would have liquidated you for a host of reasons and you know it.
As for 'properly implementing it', did you hear Castro said recently in a speech or something, referring to Cuba, that "our economic system is flawed... it doesnt work".
He's right.

As for whats happened to the rest of the left, one thing i think happened in last 20 years is a loss of clarity in what the left is about.

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Offline Zalusithix

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whats wrong with the left?
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:59:27 »
Quote from: wellington1869;222289
we dont have a parliamentary system like the UK where multiple-parties can take power via coalitions (which in turn encourages a blossoming of multiple parties). However that form of representative democracy has its own issues (such as a gridlock-times-10000 and regular dissolved parliaments).

so the two-party system has its problems but in truth the two parties function as 'umbrella' groups for a variety of interests, in effect the coalition process thus occurs before the election, in order to consolidate a majority of votes for the election.  A third party in our system will not necessarily solve anything (and may simply weaken moderates even further by splitting up votes - remember the ralph nader effect? It was devastating for the democrats when Gore ran).

Oh, I won't bother to try and argue that an N party system will be better than a 2 party one if somehow implemented here. We're too entrenched in our current ways to easily change. Heck, we still haven't ditched the age old electoral vote nonsense. I just wish the two parties weren't so opposite on everything, which when combined with people voting down party lines just creates a constant tug of war back and forth.

No doubt it could be worse, but I don't see our exact form of democracy as being the gold standard to follow if you were to prop up a new one. Plenty of things could use tweaking in such a situation. We'll never achieve perfection (in any government), but things could be better.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #12 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 01:06:03 »
Quote from: Zalusithix;222302
I just wish the two parties weren't so opposite on everything

seems to me what needs to happen is for the moderates to exert themselves much more forcefully within each party, show some leadership, be unafraid to engage the extremists and denounce them when necessary.  And raise awareness within the party so people stop to think about this problem of extremism.

So it might just be a leadership problem (not unlike in the muslim world btw).

in our case, a lack-of-moderate-leaders problem compounded by the loss of clarity that I think is at the heart of it, clarity on what basic leftist values actually are.

Quote

We'll never achieve perfection (in any government), but things could be better.


well i certainly agree with that.
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 September 2010, 01:10:20 by wellington1869 »

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Offline Zalusithix

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« Reply #13 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 01:31:44 »
Quote from: wellington1869;222304
seems to me what needs to happen is for the moderates to exert themselves much more forcefully within each party, show some leadership, be unafraid to engage the extremists and denounce them when necessary.  And raise awareness within the party so people stop to think about this problem of extremism.

So it might just be a leadership problem (not unlike in the muslim world btw).

in our case, a lack-of-moderate-leaders problem compounded by the loss of clarity that I think is at the heart of it, clarity on what basic leftist values actually are.

Unfortunately, often when a politician tries to do anything that could be construed as being bipartisan, they're lambasted for not being a true republican/democrat. The more they continue on that path, the more they'll lose the support of the party. Similarly if a politician is too extreme to one end or the other, the chance they'll offend others is high enough that they'll usually lose support from the party.

Without support from the party, a politician's chances of election are low to non-existent. It's a self filtering system that drops the extremists and moderates. What you're left with is a bunch of people that are seemingly only there to oppose whatever the other people do. Even political ideals seem to play second fiddle to that essential opposition.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #14 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 01:42:00 »
Quote from: Zalusithix;222305
Unfortunately, often when a politician tries to do anything that could be construed as being bipartisan, they're lambasted for not being a true republican/democrat. The more they continue on that path, the more they'll lose the support of the party. Similarly if a politician is too extreme to one end or the other, the chance they'll offend others is high enough that they'll usually lose support from the party.

Without support from the party, a politician's chances of election are low to non-existent. It's a self filtering system that drops the extremists and moderates. What you're left with is a bunch of people that are seemingly only there to oppose whatever the other people do. Even political ideals seem to play second fiddle to that essential opposition.


i agree this is an accurate description of whats happening. But I dont beleive the system itself is so inherently flawed that this outcome is inevitable. There is a lot of room for the role of individual leadership in this system and for the role of activism.
Even the tea partiers for instance, whatever else they are, they work their asses off to get the kind of influence they currently have. Moderates and centrists could do the same, there's nothing inherently preventing them from organizing, doing activism, and making their voices heard.  Except maybe our own laziness or our own pessimism.

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Offline Zalusithix

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« Reply #15 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 01:58:34 »
Quote from: wellington1869;222307
i agree this is an accurate description of whats happening. But I dont beleive the system itself is so inherently flawed that this outcome is inevitable. There is a lot of room for the role of individual leadership in this system and for the role of activism.
Even the tea partiers for instance, whatever else they are, they work their asses off to get the kind of influence they currently have. Moderates and centrists could do the same, there's nothing inherently preventing them from organizing, doing activism, and making their voices heard.  Except maybe our own laziness or our own pessimism.


No, the system is not inherently flawed to the point where it is impossible. It's certainly possible with the right politicians, funding, and rhetoric. Education of the general populace to reduce the number of those who vote on party lines without a damn clue of who they're putting into office couldn't hurt either. Still, that's no small feat to accomplish. Hopefully some day it'll happen, but I don't have much confidence that we'll be seeing it any time soon.

All in all, the system itself is amazingly flexible. It's just ironic that it's run by a bunch of inflexible people.

Offline Ekaros

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whats wrong with the left?
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 03:47:45 »
US isn't in my opinion realy a democracy of people, but money.... In my opinion whole party system is wrong...

Can't say what is wrong with exreme left in US...
So I should add something useless here yes? Ok, ok...
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #17 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 04:53:23 »
Quote from: wellington1869;222289
we dont have a parliamentary system like the UK where multiple-parties can take power via coalitions (which in turn encourages a blossoming of multiple parties).


That way you just end up with five delicious flavors of center wing. That's what we have five or so parties that are the same thing, and some socialist party with links to the IRA.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #18 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 09:36:27 »
Quote from: wellington1869;222271
It wasnt long ago that the 'left' defended democracy and human rights, respected things like evidence, and fought against religious fascism.

what changed? how did it change so radically in such a short time?
The identity of America's enemies changed.

Yesterday, therefore, people concerned about American right-wingers, American fascists, American religious fanatics... defended the Soviet Union. They said that there were a lot of good things about Communism. It wasn't controlled by ignorant religious people who would ban the teaching of evolution. It recognized the importance of sharing with the poor, and including the ordinary working people in the nation's prosperity.

Today, people concerned with American right-wingers, American fascists, American religious fanatics... defend Islam. They point out that the Palestinians are facing a lot of problems at Israel's hands. They note that we shouldn't be judging an ancient culture by our own standards of feminism and religious liberty, laudable though these are.

The left, thus, is always in favor of America dealing with the beam in its own eye, and never the mote in the eye of some other country... even when that other country has attacked us or our allies.

The problem with that is that viewing even segregation as a "beam", compared to concentration camps as a "mote"... is a stretch. But then, with only a very few exceptions, the left fully supported America in World War II, with the isolationists mostly found on the right.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #19 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 10:48:18 »
Quote from: quadibloc;222365
The identity of America's enemies changed.


good point, this is clearly a factor in the re-alignment of perceived allies and opponents for both left and right


Quote

The left, thus, is always in favor of America dealing with the beam in its own eye, and never the mote in the eye of some other country... even when that other country has attacked us or our allies.


this is the heart of the problem.  Why is it that dismantling the only world power that has most consistently written liberal values into its constitution, seen as the solution?! It seems so counter to everything liberals claim they value.  
I can understand wanting the US to work better -- but to want to see it defeated?!
What happens then? Do these leftists think they're going to survive an islamic dictatorship?! They didnt even survive communist purges!


Quote

The problem with that is that viewing even segregation as a "beam", compared to concentration camps as a "mote"... is a stretch. But then, with only a very few exceptions, the left fully supported America in World War II, with the isolationists mostly found on the right.


ya, this is why I keep thinking that, between wwII and the present, things went horribly horribly wrong for the left.  During wwII they were largely on the right side of the war and the right side of history.  Today they are not.

Today they're mired in some deep intellectual funk, engaging in masterbatory conspiracy theory and masochistic self-flagellation while Rome burns down around them.
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 September 2010, 10:52:56 by wellington1869 »

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #20 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 10:57:59 »
Quote from: Zalusithix;222309
No, the system is not inherently flawed to the point where it is impossible. It's certainly possible with the right politicians, funding, and rhetoric. Education of the general populace to reduce the number of those who vote on party lines without a damn clue of who they're putting into office couldn't hurt either. Still, that's no small feat to accomplish. Hopefully some day it'll happen, but I don't have much confidence that we'll be seeing it any time soon.

All in all, the system itself is amazingly flexible. It's just ironic that it's run by a bunch of inflexible people.


well what this comes down to is a reminder that america is, ultimately, open-source. If things are wrong, declaring the software void isnt the solution; getting off our asses and contributing to fixing it is the solution. Otherwise america wont work, is gauranteed not to work, without the contributions of its citizens.  

This, too, used to be a leftist ideal -- participation and activism.  Its become a right-wing ideal now while the left sits on its ass and wishes for the islamists to win.

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #21 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 11:24:58 »
there's a deeply nihilistic, self-destructive aspect of leftist thought, which really troubles me.  
It seems to come from the notion that "we" (ie, the group the speaker is currently part of) are the source of all evil.
Its definitely a form of 'original sin' theology.

This 'original sin' theory results logically in an intense desire for self-destruction -- righteous self-destruction. It also results in a desire for some kind of coming violent total apocalypse which is a prerequisite to utopia.  Therefore they wind up wishing for catastrophe because they think it leads to utopia.

once "we" are removed through self flagellation and self destruction, some kind of new paradise would spontaneously appear, because the only thing holding back such utopia is 'ourselves'.

Its kind of like how medieval christians wavered back and forth between the retreat, self-flagellation and self-hatred of the monks versus the church's persecutions of non-christians and others.  With very little in-between.  Both were ways of dealing with the 'problem of evil'. It was all us, or it was all them. Very little in between.

Today's left and right seem to be unthinkingly duplicating the same theological structure and its effects. When what we need desperately is something more capable of dealing with nuance when the problem of evil comes up.

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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #22 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 11:34:31 »
I hate US politcs.  It's a bunch of grandstanding, polarized *******s that think policy is best made by cock-blocking the other side and not passing anything rather than collaborating to form policy that works in the best interest for everyone (or as close as possible).  Our system, these days, does not reward people that want to collaborate which, IMO, hurt Obama early on.  Now it seems that the only way to achieve moderation is to vote each party in every other election and the far left and far right policy evens out instead of actually having true moderates in office.

That is all.


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #23 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 12:02:31 »
Quote from: itlnstln;222409
I hate US politcs.  It's a bunch of grandstanding, polarized *******s that think policy is best made by cock-blocking the other side and not passing anything rather than collaborating to form policy that works in the best interest for everyone (or as close as possible).  Our system, these days, does not reward people that want to collaborate which, IMO, hurt Obama early on.  Now it seems that the only way to achieve moderation is to vote each party in every other election and the far left and far right policy evens out instead of actually having true moderates in office.

That is all.


i dont disagree with your description. I just dont think it necessarily has to be this way.  Its a leadership problem and 'the people' can exert pressure and raise awareness if we get off our butts and engage the political system the same way the tea partiers are. Even moderates can represent themselves if they choose to.

in a way its nice to have our work cut out for us this way. Gives us a goal and a platform.

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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #24 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 14:18:59 »
Quote from: itlnstln;222409
Now it seems that the only way to achieve moderation is to vote each party in every other election and the far left and far right policy evens out instead of actually having true moderates in office.
I agree that U.S. politics is in a bad state.

I think that most Americans do want more moderate politicians in office... but maybe "moderate" isn't quite the right word.

On domestic economic policy, I think most Americans would like someone who is to the left of Obama - who would bring in single-payer health care, who would stop the cheap imports and put the rust belt back to work, and so on and so forth.

On foreign policy, I suspect, though, they would be supportive of someone to the right of G. W. Bush; a stronger supporter of Israel, a fiercer opponent of terrorism.

When it comes to family values, I think that's an area where the average American also wants someone in the area between G. W. Bush and Sarah Palin. They don't want the government to massively interfere in people's personal lives - but they do want the government to ensure that their children can be protected from things that make them uncomfortable, no matter how much avant-garde pressure groups are dismayed.

Thus, they would like to turn back the clock to J. F. K. or F. D. R. - these were leaders who cared about the working man, but they didn't neglect the nation's defenses, nor did they go off on weird tangents like gay rights or abortion.

Thus, I see a party with a Populist orientation as potentially being preferred by a wide swath of Americans to either the Republicans or the Democrats.

Offline mike

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« Reply #25 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 14:36:36 »
Quote from: wellington1869;222289
we dont have a parliamentary system like the UK where multiple-parties can take power via coalitions (which in turn encourages a blossoming of multiple parties). However that form of representative democracy has its own issues (such as a gridlock-times-10000 and regular dissolved parliaments).


It's quite amusing to hear you say that, because the UK system does not encourage the formation of coalitions - the present coalition is the first coalition government in 65 years, and all the coalition governments of the 20thC were wartime governments or the government during the depression (1931-40).

Italy is a far better if extreme example as they've had 60 "prime ministers" since the war - a touch under one a year. Despite (or maybe even because of the) the chaotic government, Italy has recovered from the war years to become the 10th richest country in the world according to GDP. Perhaps strong government is less necessary than politicians would have us believe ?
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whats wrong with the left?
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 17:13:52 »
Quote from: wellington1869;222271
serious question.

where did all the conspiracy theorists and democracy haters, who have apparently taken over the 'left' in our popular culture and politics (e.g. huffpo and dailykos), come from?

It wasnt long ago that the 'left' defended democracy and human rights, respected things like evidence, and fought against religious fascism.

what changed? how did it change so radically in such a short time?

help me see a difference between neo-nazis and today's left. Because I cant.


There's the extremes on both sides. I personally think you're looking at too young a demographic to extract any meaningful political opinions.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #27 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 18:21:39 »
Quote from: mike;222483
Italy is a far better if extreme example as they've had 60 "prime ministers" since the war - a touch under one a year. Despite (or maybe even because of the) the chaotic government, Italy has recovered from the war years to become the 10th richest country in the world according to GDP. Perhaps strong government is less necessary than politicians would have us believe ?


Wouldn't use Italy as an example of a success story - most of the country is in ****, and it's just that some parts in the north that just happen to be rich enough to counteract with it.

Changing governments constantly isn't good. To get anything meaningful done, you need a singular entity with enough time to do what they need to do. As the parties that are voted out are usually replaced by people with different views, you just end up with a situation where one group starts something, the other takes power, stops it and does something else, and so on.

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #28 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 18:26:39 »
What makes Italy rich is the all those Uncle Tony the Mobster's they got there.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #29 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 18:29:15 »
Yes, who are also all friends with the appropriate government ministers. Mass corruption is yet another reason why the Italian government isn't going to inspire anyone.

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« Reply #30 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 19:32:49 »
Well close...Italy makes a ton of money from tourism. But it's true that corruption is terrible (primarily in the south). Mostly as a result of this. In fact the South's economy is half that of the North (which is more similar to Northern European countries). Italy's government claims that if it weren't for the corruption, the South would have the same economical level.

Offline 8_INCH_FLOPPY

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« Reply #31 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 20:38:49 »
Quote from: wellington1869;222271
serious question.

where did all the conspiracy theorists and democracy haters, who have apparently taken over the 'left' in our popular culture and politics (e.g. huffpo and dailykos), come from?

It wasnt long ago that the 'left' defended democracy and human rights, respected things like evidence, and fought against religious fascism.

what changed? how did it change so radically in such a short time?

help me see a difference between neo-nazis and today's left. Because I cant.

It really depends on how you define "left" and "right".  I'm going to assume that left = liberal and right = conservative, For the purposes of this discussion.  

First of all, remember that the 'left'  that "defended democracy and human rights, respected things like evidence, and fought against religious fascism" has become the 'right' of today.  Conservatives, by definition,  are basically the group that wants to keep things the way they are.  Liberals are not satisfied with the way things are and want to change things.  The people who fought for the things you mentioned would mostly be happy with the way things were run *20 years ago*.  I hesitate to say *today*, because I thing the US and most of Europe has gone insane in the last few years.  Typically, over a long time span, you see some of the liberal ideas being adopted some rejected.  The liberals gradually become conservative relative to society.  Some of the formerly liberal ideas are rejected or proven not to work, and they get put aside for a while.  Of course, they usually pop up again a few generations later, when people have forgotten how bad they are.  Cough *Communism* Cough!
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Offline maclover

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« Reply #32 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 21:30:42 »
The problem with the left in America is that they're afraid to speak truth to power.

The recent downturn in the economy has proven even further that the right is out of touch with reality not only when it comes to foreign policy and science but also when it comes to economics. They're just plain wrong.

Now it looks like they are they are going to prolong the depression in the west needlessly out of a misguided hope that austerity will somehow boost the economy completely ignoring the past depressions. What was World War II if not a huge stimulus package.

We are getting fairly close to the technology required for a egalitarian society but of course the right is going to try to slow down the progress we are making as a society just like they did when it came to suffrage, public education, civil rights, social safety nets and slavery.

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #33 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 00:36:30 »
Quote from: ripster
Show Image

Where the hell did those two get a monkeywrench and a sickle?  Did they steal them?
 
They should be holding a screwdriver and a soldering gun.

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« Reply #34 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 01:23:29 »
Of course, the North Korean symbol involves a hammer, a sickle, and a paintbrush. Thus, North Korea's kinder, gentler version of self-reliant (juche) Communism recognizes not just the workers and peasants, but also the intelligentsia - artists and technical workers - as vital to the nation.

This could almost be heartwarming, if one didn't know all the terrible things that country was up to.

Offline mike

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« Reply #35 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 01:36:54 »
Quote from: ch_123;222540
Wouldn't use Italy as an example of a success story - most of the country is in ****, and it's just that some parts in the north that just happen to be rich enough to counteract with it.


Er ... I wasn't using Italy as an example of success either as a country or as a government for that country. I was using it as an example of of what can happen under a electoral system that encourages coalitions.

I'm aware that the North is richer than the South, but you'll find that different parts of almost every country have different economic conditions.
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Offline mike

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« Reply #36 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 01:58:01 »
Quote from: 8_INCH_FLOPPY;222581
It really depends on how you define "left" and "right".  I'm going to assume that left = liberal and right = conservative, For the purposes of this discussion.


Well that's a novel definition of left and right. It would certainly startle a 19thC revolutionary Carlist, or a 20thC Soviet party member.
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Offline chimera15

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« Reply #37 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 03:12:16 »
Geesh, the left are commies, the right are nazi's.  Play more Civilization.  Msnbc= commie propaganda channel.  Fox = Nazi Propaganda channel.  Beck=Goebbels. Arianna Huffington=Stalin.

If you took a Nazi SS from 1942 and plopped him down today and ask him to vote, trust me he wouldn't be voting for Obama, he'd be voting for the old white dude.

The problem started when the Nazi's aka Fox started their unified propaganda channel to spew for their party 24 hours a day and called it news.  The commies had to start back at them, and took over msnbc or they would have completely been buried, and had to come up with as loony theories as them to get ratings. It's really all about money in the end, whoever can come up with the most fear mongering idiotic racist theory wins.
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 September 2010, 03:59:36 by chimera15 »
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Offline microsoft windows

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whats wrong with the left?
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 06:05:37 »
Quote from: maclover;222593
The problem with the left in America is that they're afraid to speak truth to power.

The recent downturn in the economy has proven even further that the right is out of touch with reality not only when it comes to foreign policy and science but also when it comes to economics. They're just plain wrong.

Now it looks like they are they are going to prolong the depression in the west needlessly out of a misguided hope that austerity will somehow boost the economy completely ignoring the past depressions. What was World War II if not a huge stimulus package.

We are getting fairly close to the technology required for a egalitarian society but of course the right is going to try to slow down the progress we are making as a society just like they did when it came to suffrage, public education, civil rights, social safety nets and slavery.


You know, I'm sorry if I'm a little blunt, but you're an idiot.

First off, we're not even close to being in a depression.

Second, how does creating a bunch of government jobs help private employment? It just brings the US deeper and deeper into debt.

And third, how are the Republicans the ones out of touch right now? They're the ones who want to keep our government solvent!
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #39 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 06:31:08 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;222642
And third, how are the Republicans the ones out of touch right now? They're the ones who want to keep our government solvent!

When was the last time the U.S. government was solvent..?
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Offline mike

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« Reply #40 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 06:40:20 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;222642
Second, how does creating a bunch of government jobs help private employment? It just brings the US deeper and deeper into debt.


Government spending (whether on jobs or investment in infrastructure) does help private employment simply by adding extra money to the economy ... all those government workers are going to want to buy houses, groceries, gadgets, etc.

Now does that effect cure more problems than increasing government debt cause ? Depends on the amount of debt and how sick the economy is of course.
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Offline Ekaros

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« Reply #41 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 06:44:59 »
Quote from: mike;222654
Government spending (whether on jobs or investment in infrastructure) does help private employment simply by adding extra money to the economy ... all those government workers are going to want to buy houses, groceries, gadgets, etc.

Now does that effect cure more problems than increasing government debt cause ? Depends on the amount of debt and how sick the economy is of course.


Umm, goverment spending helped in past, but now it have started to cost. Only thing to do is find accetable way to restart economy and get rid of massive debts...
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Offline mike

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« Reply #42 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 06:48:02 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;222648
When was the last time the U.S. government was solvent..?


Depends on what you mean by solvent. If you mean not in debt, around 1840.

It's worth pointing out that the US still has a triple-A sovereign credit rating. That's the highest rating you can get.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #43 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 06:50:25 »
Hmmm...it's funny that the one solution I never hear people talking about anymore, is looking at ways to re-invigorate and invest in our private enterprise. People want the government to pay for this and that when only our private enterprise can earn enough $ to get us back on track. Yes, you can argue that private enterprise got us into this mess in the first place but that's only because there wasn't enough competition (and still isn't). Key is: we need more competition. We need to cut taxes and help small businesses to grow.
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 September 2010, 06:58:47 by keyboardlover »

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #44 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 07:05:42 »
Quote from: mike;222657
Depends on what you mean by solvent. If you mean not in debt, around 1840.

It's worth pointing out that the US still has a triple-A sovereign credit rating. That's the highest rating you can get.


Didn't Keynes say that it was ideal for governments to be in some degree of debt? I don't know huge amounts about economics, but it seems to me that governments shouldn't cease to spend money on anything when hard times comes... breaking eggs to make omelets and all that.

Offline pex

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« Reply #45 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 07:37:59 »
Does anyone on this thread actually know what the 'left' is?

I would try to explain, for US government/politics purposes, how 'liberal democrats' were 'infiltrated' by 'progressives' some decades ago which changed the contours of politics for both parties today, but the breadth of attributes given to the 'left' in this thread by different posters makes it rather unclear who and what was and what has changed.

As for partyism in the US generally,
Quote
so the two-party system has its problems but in truth the two parties function as 'umbrella' groups for a variety of interests, in effect the coalition process thus occurs before the election, in order to consolidate a majority of votes for the election. A third party in our system will not necessarily solve anything (and may simply weaken moderates even further by splitting up votes - remember the ralph nader effect? It was devastating for the democrats when Gore ran).
what the US has today is a government supported monopoly on politics, with two parties (two-party tag-team of tyranny) written into law, providing for a false dichotomy with two sides, each wishing to take away half our rights (the only bipartisan thing they do is work together to take away all of our rights).  One of the main calculated effects of the false dichotomy is incrementalism, which provides for a slow but sure erosion of liberty while minimally rousing an increasingly apathetic people (toward revolution where the oppression is no longer worth not cashing one's life in for a people's liberty.)  The false dichotomy works elegantly into the human phsyche which enjoys yes/no/true/false queries, and provides for side-switching (between the two sides, rather than to a side which would promote liberty) which is caluclated to actually accomplish nothing.  With the two-parties-by-law having a stranglehold on nearly all facets of government (including the ever important education sector) and by promoting a false sense of freeman's constitutional republicanism (as provided for by incrementalism), it can be expected that people rarely understand how to solve the problem of an unlawful and encroaching government or how to band together to control it.

So while I don't really know what a left or a right is, or a republican or a democrat, what I think I do know is that the purpose of the false dichotomies as they have been created and labeled is for the purpose of social control.  When we believe we live in a world where there are apparently really only two sides to every problem, and we can show our disgust by switching only to the other side, even when in the back of our mind we realize both sides are usually wrong enough that we shouldn't support either of them, we have accepted a schema through which we learn helplessness, and so we become helpless, and enslaved.

p.s. calling third parties 'spoilers' is one of the major ways two-party incrementalism retains its stronghold.  please stop.
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 September 2010, 07:43:55 by pex »
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Offline wellington1869

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whats wrong with the left?
« Reply #46 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 08:14:21 »
Quote from: pex;222669
pex  said stuf...



This is the irony:

IF you want to talk about far left and far right, then yes, they're the same, and yet are incapable of working together.
If you want to talk about center-left and center-right, they're very different - and yet ironically, they are capable of working together.

As for destroying government altogether by claiming umbrella parties (like the dnc and rnc) are the same -- thats just silly. They're very different and have different understandings of both methods and uses of governments.

What you're hoping for is either some kind of libertarian anarchy where govt is removed altogether (I'm glad we dont have that) or some kind of commie utopia where government is everything (I'm glad we dont have that). These are likely what you envision when you dream of third parties. I wouldnt mind a centrist thrid party - but you would probably see them as 'collaborators' since they'd very much be willing to work within our system.

As for third party spoilers: See An Unreasonable Man (netflix has it) and then see if you still dont think nader is a spoiler. He nearly destroyed america in that gore-bush election. And did so willfully. I respect his earlier consumer advocacy work before he got into electoral politics; but in electoral politics, he's basically a selfish dictator.  A spoiler.
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 September 2010, 08:17:24 by wellington1869 »

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Offline chimera15

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« Reply #47 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 10:50:21 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;222642
You know, I'm sorry if I'm a little blunt, but you're an idiot.

First off, we're not even close to being in a depression.

Second, how does creating a bunch of government jobs help private employment? It just brings the US deeper and deeper into debt.

And third, how are the Republicans the ones out of touch right now? They're the ones who want to keep our government solvent!

Are you crazy? There was going to be a great depression, it's clear. The net economy, ebay, combined with cheap imports from China have totally undermined the global economy, and most are too stupid to realize it.  I've been predicting it for 10 years. On top of that you had nut jobs deregulating the stock market and making it a casino.

 It's  pure idiocy and craziness and that type of thinking that it wasn't going to be a great depression, and that it isn't going to, and can't  happen again that's causing it to happen.

I'm old enough, and my parents had me when they were old enough, that my parents lived through the great depression, and they were always scared of it happening again.  Most people these days are generations removed from it, and just don't seem to get it.

The only thing that saved us, and is saving us from it is massive correction, spending, and stepping in from the government. If they had held the purse strings like Hoover, the world would be in total shambles right now.   The world doesn't want to pay what it used to for houses, or for things, and as a result people are going to be out of work, and die.

That's why I'm moving to Japan/China as soon as I can get any money at all. lol
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 September 2010, 11:06:25 by chimera15 »
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Offline chimera15

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« Reply #48 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 11:20:07 »
Quote from: wellington1869;222674
This is the irony:

IF you want to talk about far left and far right, then yes, they're the same, and yet are incapable of working together.
If you want to talk about center-left and center-right, they're very different - and yet ironically, they are capable of working together.

As for destroying government altogether by claiming umbrella parties (like the dnc and rnc) are the same -- thats just silly. They're very different and have different understandings of both methods and uses of governments.

What you're hoping for is either some kind of libertarian anarchy where govt is removed altogether (I'm glad we dont have that) or some kind of commie utopia where government is everything (I'm glad we dont have that). These are likely what you envision when you dream of third parties. I wouldnt mind a centrist thrid party - but you would probably see them as 'collaborators' since they'd very much be willing to work within our system.

As for third party spoilers: See An Unreasonable Man (netflix has it) and then see if you still dont think nader is a spoiler. He nearly destroyed america in that gore-bush election. And did so willfully. I respect his earlier consumer advocacy work before he got into electoral politics; but in electoral politics, he's basically a selfish dictator.  A spoiler.

It's true though.  If there is a third party, it does split up one side or the other.  Because the democrats are really composed of a lot of different groups in particular.  There are communists, socialists, and utopians all under the umbrella of democrats.  In the republican party you have fascists, theocritians, and anarchists.

What we really need is to split them all into the different parties they are and call them what they are.  People need to play more civilization.

The main problem the third party has is noone knows what the hell a libertarian is, I suppose it's really a different name for communist cause everyone's afraid of that word, and everyone knows the green party is just for pot. lol
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 September 2010, 11:43:52 by chimera15 »
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Offline mike

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« Reply #49 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 12:06:20 »
Quote from: ch_123;222661
Didn't Keynes say that it was ideal for governments to be in some degree of debt? I don't know huge amounts about economics, but it seems to me that governments shouldn't cease to spend money on anything when hard times comes... breaking eggs to make omelets and all that.


It's been a very long time since I read up on Keynes, but I'm not sure he suggested that government should be in debt although he probably wouldn't be against the notion. What he was particularly interested in pushing was the idea that governments cutting spending during recessions was very definitely a bad thing - classical economic theory suggested that cutting government spending when the tax revenue falls is the right thing.

On a personal level this is just common sense - if you earn less, you have to spend less. Scaling that homespun economic theory up to government level ensures that recessions hit hard and may even turn into depressions.

During a recession, the economic activity from the private sector slows down, and by keeping government spending up (or increasing it) keeps economic activity higher than it would otherwise be.

What politicians conveniently forget is that Keynes also suggested that governments should be reducing debt during the good times to build up resources for the bad times. Now does the US (or the UK) have enough credit to keep it's spending high during a recession ? And is that a good thing or a bad thing ? Different people have different opinions; I come down on the side of keeping spending up.

It's easy to get distracted by the absolute size of the government debt as it's high enough to be represented in numbers that most of us can't understand. It's far better to look at debt in terms of as a percentage of income, which is far more understandable. The US is predicted to have a government debt in 2011 of 100% of GDP - high but not disastrously high - or it would have lost it's triple-A credit rating already.
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