Post by: bmilcs on Wed, 29 March 2017, 16:30:59
What do you suggest I do? Do I give in to the dreaded 60% HHKB and give that a go for a while? I am a firm believer in modification, and that may be why my KUL ES-87 has stood the test of time as boards pass in and out of my collection.
I am concerned mostly with the layout of the HHKB and the steep-ish angle of the case. I use F-keys constantly, as well as ctrl + shift + arrows and ctrl + end, ctrl +pagedown, etc. Does anyone else here use this functionality constantly on their HHKB? I dread not loving and being less efficient with the topre life.
Thoughts?
Post by: bmilcs on Wed, 29 March 2017, 16:31:44
Post by: tkim on Wed, 29 March 2017, 16:35:38
Post by: zslane on Wed, 29 March 2017, 16:42:37
Post by: nmur on Wed, 29 March 2017, 17:14:07
i've got a 45g RF 87U and a HHKB, both are dental band modded because i love the lighter press and the silence affect
a pack of dental bands are like $3 so if you're okay with modification then i think it could be a good test for yourself. you can unmod just as easily too.
Post by: digi on Wed, 29 March 2017, 17:33:01
45g is really light for me, broken in 55gs can't be beat.
Post by: bmilcs on Wed, 29 March 2017, 17:45:07
Dental band reduces travel? that sounds promising.
Post by: bmilcs on Wed, 29 March 2017, 17:45:21
Post by: nmur on Wed, 29 March 2017, 17:46:50
I don't know if 55g is really heavy. Or it's the key travel to actuation. Or what :P
Dental band reduces travel? that sounds promising.
reducing the travel for topre in this case means having the rubber dome already partially collapsed, so the required force from that point on is lower
Post by: nmur on Wed, 29 March 2017, 17:48:20
Where should I get the bands?
ebay/aliexpress/dentist
when i first got them i ordered a few different sizes because each size would give a different level of silencing/reduced travel
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 29 March 2017, 18:40:43
Post by: Tactile on Wed, 29 March 2017, 18:49:47
Post by: bmilcs on Wed, 29 March 2017, 19:42:12
I say just forget it. If you don't like those Realforce boards you won't like a HHKB. If you don't like Topre, well, there you go. I don't see the point of futzing around fighting your own preference. I think it would be pretty cool to just eliminate one type of keyboard/switch from my list 'cause I didn't like it. Then I wouldn't be surrounded by Topre, Model M, Model F, Alps, MX, NEC blue oval, etc. If I could eliminate one type I could make some room. :)
I really don't want to though :P. I think I need to give it more time one on one. I really didn't like ergoclears at first, but they have grown to have a very special place in my heart. Is there a way to soften the landing on Topre or no?
I've read time and time again that HHKB is special due to the way it's mounted. Maybe it's all heresay.
Post by: bmilcs on Wed, 29 March 2017, 19:44:35
if you do a dental band mod for your realforce, the force required to press down the key goes down quite a bit.
i've got a 45g RF 87U and a HHKB, both are dental band modded because i love the lighter press and the silence affect
a pack of dental bands are like $3 so if you're okay with modification then i think it could be a good test for yourself. you can unmod just as easily too.
Which size do you suggest then? I only want a mild difference. Nothing too big.
Post by: mike52787 on Wed, 29 March 2017, 21:21:20
Post by: digi on Wed, 29 March 2017, 21:33:16
topre sucks so stop trying
(http://i.imgur.com/Xv7tGyC.gif)
Post by: Polymer on Thu, 30 March 2017, 03:40:48
In addition, if you need heavy access to those key combinations it will suck on the HHKB...
Are you trying to not bottom out? It's a bit weird that you're having this problem...
Post by: happylacquer on Thu, 30 March 2017, 04:56:04
Post by: ander on Thu, 30 March 2017, 05:06:48
But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use...
Sorry to hear about the problem. If you have a history of RSI, though, I'm wondering why you didn't get one of the ergonomically weighted (45/35) boards, which the whole Realforce concept was actually about.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 30 March 2017, 05:11:43
Post by: bmilcs on Thu, 30 March 2017, 05:37:40
Is the HHKB Cherry profile?
Post by: bmilcs on Thu, 30 March 2017, 05:38:16
But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use...
Sorry to hear about the problem. If you have a history of RSI, though, I'm wondering why you didn't get one of the ergonomically weighted (45/35) boards, which the whole Realforce concept was actually about.
I don't know. For some reason, I don't think it's the weight that's the issue.
Post by: bmilcs on Thu, 30 March 2017, 05:40:16
But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use...
Sorry to hear about the problem. If you have a history of RSI, though, I'm wondering why you didn't get one of the ergonomically weighted (45/35) boards, which the whole Realforce concept was actually about.
I don't know. For some reason, I don't think it's the weight that's the issue.
Did you learn typing on rubber membrane keyboards before going to mx, or did you have model m/ other mechanical.
I used rubber membrane for 15-20 years before swapping to mechanical.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 30 March 2017, 05:41:06
But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use...
Sorry to hear about the problem. If you have a history of RSI, though, I'm wondering why you didn't get one of the ergonomically weighted (45/35) boards, which the whole Realforce concept was actually about.
I don't know. For some reason, I don't think it's the weight that's the issue.
it's not, your technique is the problem.
topre feels exactly like rubber membrane.. So your bad technique is being rekindled on the topre.
MX style boards retrain you to type with less force.
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 30 March 2017, 05:54:01
Just looking at the board now, the OEM keycap profile isn't helping either. I very lightly rest my wrists on my wristpad all day everyday, so that extra height could be throwing me off too.
Is the HHKB Cherry profile?
HHKB and realforce caps are the same profile.
Topre isn't for everyone, I find myself using it occasionally then switching to something else only to switch back later.
Post by: bmilcs on Thu, 30 March 2017, 07:09:57
I went ahead and ordered some heavy 3/16" dental bands to try out. The saga continues. :)
Post by: bmilcs on Thu, 30 March 2017, 07:11:16
But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use...
Sorry to hear about the problem. If you have a history of RSI, though, I'm wondering why you didn't get one of the ergonomically weighted (45/35) boards, which the whole Realforce concept was actually about.
I don't know. For some reason, I don't think it's the weight that's the issue.
it's not, your technique is the problem.
topre feels exactly like rubber membrane.. So your bad technique is being rekindled on the topre.
MX style boards retrain you to type with less force.
Right. I know this is not good but realistically, I can't hold my heavy ass arms up for 16 hours a day lol. It's just not practical for me at least.
But I wish I could. I'm sure it'd help my overall posture, too. I have the typical desktop slouch.
Post by: Joey Quinn on Thu, 30 March 2017, 07:16:14
Right. I must say from switching back and forth, 55g is definitely a better typing experience. I've been trying to force the 45g on myself but it wasn't working.
I went ahead and ordered some heavy 3/16" dental bands to try out. The saga continues. :)
Lightly lubed 55g on an HHKB is my preferred topre because 45g always feels too light and I was never a fan of the RF typing experience but the old 45g domes in HHKB Pro 1s feel great.
Not saying that you should go out and buy one but if you have the chance to try a Pro 1 you may like it more than the RF 45g.
Post by: kmba on Thu, 30 March 2017, 09:15:30
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 30 March 2017, 09:22:43
Hhkb, Rf, and Leopold all use the same profile, which is close to but not the same as cherry. Leopold calls it step sculpture 2 I believe, but let's just call it topre profile.
You sure about that? I don't think topre caps are the same as Leopold step sculpture 2.
Post by: nickheller on Thu, 30 March 2017, 09:25:28
Post by: schoolbus on Thu, 30 March 2017, 09:33:35
Hhkb, Rf, and Leopold all use the same profile, which is close to but not the same as cherry. Leopold calls it step sculpture 2 I believe, but let's just call it topre profile.
This is false, Topre is more or less the same as OEM profile.
proof:
https://www.keychatter.com/keycaps/#profiles
Post by: Macsmasher on Thu, 30 March 2017, 09:38:13
If you're wanting to try another Topre option, I'd recommend the variable over the HHKB.
Post by: czarek on Thu, 30 March 2017, 09:41:29
Hhkb, Rf, and Leopold all use the same profile, which is close to but not the same as cherry. Leopold calls it step sculpture 2 I believe, but let's just call it topre profile.
This is false, Topre is more or less the same as OEM profile.
proof:
https://www.keychatter.com/keycaps/#profiles
Well the only reason why I prefer Cherry profile when using MX keyboards is because it closely resembles Topre standard profile. And while topre switches have their faults (like forcing to bottom out, and inducing RSI), their keycaps are fantastic.
BTW here is a photo where I tried to show you resemblence of Cherry and Topre profile. White keys is HHKB, Black keys is GH60 with Gateron EnjoyPBT (it also sports 62G Zealios :)).
[attachimg=1]
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 30 March 2017, 13:24:19
Right. I know this is not good but realistically, I can't hold my heavy ass arms up for 16 hours a day lol. It's just not practical for me at least.
But I wish I could. I'm sure it'd help my overall posture, too. I have the typical desktop slouch.
Standing Desk,
Check out this Meerkat.. That Iconic Majestic Posture. These are our roots..
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/meerkat-standing-upright-16018188.jpg)
Post by: HenrikErlandsson on Thu, 30 March 2017, 13:45:35
But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use. I don't know if it's the lack of sweet, sweet GMK keycaps or my beloved 62g thoroughly lubed ergoclears... but both 87u's are causing me issues. I think I attribute it to the PBT & plate-mounted switches, so I don't want to write Topre off just yet!Yep, I definitely favor PCB mounted before plate mounted, and ABS before PBT. I think it's the weight.
What do you suggest I do? Do I give in to the dreaded 60% HHKB and give that a go for a while? I am a firm believer in modification, and that may be why my KUL ES-87 has stood the test of time as boards pass in and out of my collection.
I am concerned mostly with the layout of the HHKB and the steep-ish angle of the case. I use F-keys constantly, as well as ctrl + shift + arrows and ctrl + end, ctrl +pagedown, etc. Does anyone else here use this functionality constantly on their HHKB? I dread not loving and being less efficient with the topre life.
Thoughts?
The actuation force is the combined weight of the required finger pressure plus the weight of the keycap.
A single PBT letter key weighs 1-2.5g, whereas ABS weighs .8-1g. A maximum of 3% less pressure difference might not be so much. But a bigger key on a single switch and you have to do some math, and you won't be able to find a switch with the exact actuation force you'd want for it to be consistent.
Post by: chyros on Thu, 30 March 2017, 14:22:19
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 30 March 2017, 14:32:08
The more I use my RealForce, the less I like it. It was nice at first, but more and more I get the feeling they're just rubber domes. And not even the nicest rubber domes I know :/ .
Tp4 completely agrees.. Topre is weeb hype, 100%.. Topre IS rubber dome.. there's no differentiation whatsoever..
The force curve between each cup will be quite dissimilar relative to springs which are highly uniform.
Is topre a bad keyboard, NO, should it be valued at more than $100 , Heck NO..
Post by: nsmechkb on Thu, 30 March 2017, 14:32:41
But this is as anecdotal as it gets.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 30 March 2017, 14:35:15
Haven't read through everything in this thread, but it seems like the relative height of the board matters. If you don't have a keyboard tray/drawer, maybe pick one up and try that. When I switched my 45g Topre from on top of the desk to a keyboard tray a few inches lower, while keeping my chair at the same height, the domes felt less resistant.
But this is as anecdotal as it gets.
No, your description is on the money.
When you play piano for example.. It's important that the keys be slightly below your elbow. This allows you to utilize the momentum and weight of your arms, which reduces fatigue
A lower typing/mousing surface also relaxes your shoulders from having to lift your palm plane above the keyboard plane.
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 30 March 2017, 15:13:21
Post by: swagpiratex on Thu, 30 March 2017, 16:04:55
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 30 March 2017, 16:08:38
i haven't posted on here for years, but if you're getting RSI typing on topre, your posture is incorrect..
That's not true.
The cause of --certain types-- of RSI is related to having learned bad technique (holding, and over pressing) on rubber dome keyboards.. unrelated to sitting/standing/ positional posture
This goes away with MX, because it feels different enough to cause people to relearn typing, and type lighter.
If such a person with bad initial technique goes BACK to topre, then that rubbery feel could cause him to Relapse..
Post by: swagpiratex on Thu, 30 March 2017, 16:16:44
Posture is more difficult to correct, especially if you aren't aware of the issue. And as the day goes on, also becomes to more difficult to self-correct since supporting skeletal muscles become fatigued as well. This is 100% related to posture, RSI is inherently a biomechanical problem.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 30 March 2017, 17:44:46
All kinds of RSI are caused by incorrect application of force, which is the cause of trauma. Typing technique can be adjusted rather easily (using a technique that hurts, vs one that doesn't hurt.)
Posture is more difficult to correct, especially if you aren't aware of the issue. And as the day goes on, also becomes to more difficult to self-correct since supporting skeletal muscles become fatigued as well. This is 100% related to posture, RSI is inherently a biomechanical problem.
There is no objective way to say one is harder than the other to do.
We can safely assume that either is do-able..
But this can not be posture related, because he's using 2 different keyboards on the same chair and table.
Topre caused some issues, the mx does not.
Your analysis is incorrect.
Post by: digi on Thu, 30 March 2017, 18:01:49
If such a person with bad initial technique goes BACK to topre, then that rubbery feel could cause him to Relapse..
HAHAHA
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 30 March 2017, 18:07:31
If such a person with bad initial technique goes BACK to topre, then that rubbery feel could cause him to Relapse..
HAHAHA
oh... i see ... yea.. bad phrasing..
But in context it's fine.. ..
if you remove the context ,, then it's bad
Post by: noisyturtle on Thu, 30 March 2017, 18:25:58
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:06:18
I'm convinced people who claim Topre feels drastically different to standard rubber domes either have broken fingers or are 100% about the hype.
It's weeb-itis.
Obscures finger sensitivity.
Post by: digi on Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:06:48
I'm convinced people who claim Topre feels drastically different to standard rubber domes either have broken fingers or are 100% about the hype.
Wrong + Wrong = Wrong
Post by: happylacquer on Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:07:38
I'm convinced people who claim Topre feels drastically different to standard rubber domes either have broken fingers or are 100% about the hype.
I like to act like this is true of MX fans but it's so undeniably true of Topre fans!
(FYI I consider people who type differently than me to have broken fingers ;D )
Post by: happylacquer on Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:08:25
If such a person with bad initial technique goes BACK to topre, then that rubbery feel could cause him to Relapse..
HAHAHA
oh... i see ... yea.. bad phrasing..
But in context it's fine.. ..
if you remove the context ,, then it's bad
It's good :thumb:
Post by: Joey Quinn on Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:19:44
I'm convinced people who claim Topre feels drastically different to standard rubber domes either have broken fingers or are 100% about the hype.
It isn't totally different from a rubber dome board but it does feel like a quality rubber dome board, also topre boards get better with age unlike a standard rubber dome.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:20:45
I'm convinced people who claim Topre feels drastically different to standard rubber domes either have broken fingers or are 100% about the hype.
It isn't totally different from a rubber dome board but it does feel like a quality rubber dome board, also topre boards get better with age unlike a standard rubber dome.
/heavy breathing
........../resisting conflict
Post by: bmilcs on Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:28:13
OP here: I have a standing desk, and constantly adjust the height depending on my posture. I swap between a yoga ball, desk chair, standing, and also have a mini elliptical that I use as a stationary bike and standing elliptical at times. I am hyper aware of my posture and all that.
I think it's a combination of all the things I've mentioned. The lack of GMK is really, really hard to deal with as well. I've completely relearned to type and when in a good groove, never bottom out on 62g korean springs. I found that if I don't touch type, and aggressively use my Realforces, they're better... but it's almost like I'm devolving... into a lesser typist by doing so.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:36:00
Yeah. The hype for Topre is insane. There is an exceedingly positive general outlook on the switch... so much that I am putting the blame on myself for finding it less than ideal. I will see how it is after modification :P
OP here: I have a standing desk, and constantly adjust the height depending on my posture. I swap between a yoga ball, desk chair, standing, and also have a mini elliptical that I use as a stationary bike and standing elliptical at times. I am hyper aware of my posture and all that.
I think it's a combination of all the things I've mentioned. The lack of GMK is really, really hard to deal with as well. I've completely relearned to type and when in a good groove, never bottom out on 62g korean springs. I found that if I don't touch type, and aggressively use my Realforces, they're better... but it's almost like I'm devolving... into a lesser typist by doing so.
You've refuted one hype and inserted another .. hahahaha .. gmk..
Post by: bmilcs on Fri, 31 March 2017, 05:56:51
Yeah. The hype for Topre is insane. There is an exceedingly positive general outlook on the switch... so much that I am putting the blame on myself for finding it less than ideal. I will see how it is after modification :P
OP here: I have a standing desk, and constantly adjust the height depending on my posture. I swap between a yoga ball, desk chair, standing, and also have a mini elliptical that I use as a stationary bike and standing elliptical at times. I am hyper aware of my posture and all that.
I think it's a combination of all the things I've mentioned. The lack of GMK is really, really hard to deal with as well. I've completely relearned to type and when in a good groove, never bottom out on 62g korean springs. I found that if I don't touch type, and aggressively use my Realforces, they're better... but it's almost like I'm devolving... into a lesser typist by doing so.
You've refuted one hype and inserted another .. hahahaha .. gmk..
Nah. GMK is the best. I was super duper skeptical and wasn't crazy for it at first. But I gave it a proper test and I can definitely say I prefer GMK over any other keycap. To each his own ;)
Post by: czarek on Fri, 31 March 2017, 06:29:28
I do agree it's a hype though. It's caused by prices and availability of course. I think familar feel for those who grew up using normal Rubber dome also has something to do with it.
Of course many people will swear by Topre, just like any other switch, and that's all right. I like them a lot myself. They are one of my favourite switches - especially silent weighted version is delightful.
Please note though that my current daily driver is fullsize Filco with MX Browns - boring as hell, especially if you take into account tens of keyboards I own (including Realforces and HHKB, and Model Fs) :D
Post by: opensecret on Fri, 31 March 2017, 11:05:08
Your view makes sense. Every user is different, and every board has its pluses and minuses. I’m convinced there’s no board that is miraculously better than anything else out there.
Please note though that my current daily driver is fullsize Filco with MX Browns - boring as hell, especially if you take into account tens of keyboards I own (including Realforces and HHKB, and Model Fs) :D
Topre is a great switch (I’m particularly partial to the variable weight RF boards), but I think the same is true for Alps and Cherry. For some people there is no switch other than buckling spring, but I gave my Model M to my wife who’s willing to type on almost anything and isn't really aware that she's typing on a classic piece of hardware. Lately I’ve been mostly alternating between a WASD with o-ringed browns and a new 50g XMIT Hall effect board (which actuates at 35g -- I like a light touch).
If I tried a board, and my initial reaction was that it felt harsh and produced RSI, I’d says that one just isn’t for me.
Post by: digi on Fri, 31 March 2017, 11:31:08
Well Topre is not really bad switch. It has its advantages. It is one of the smoothest switch out of the box, and it's capacitive which makes it 100% immune to chatter.
I do agree it's a hype though. It's caused by prices and availability of course. I think familar feel for those who grew up using normal Rubber dome also has something to do with it.
Of course many people will swear by Topre, just like any other switch, and that's all right. I like them a lot myself. They are one of my favourite switches - especially silent weighted version is delightful.
Please note though that my current daily driver is fullsize Filco with MX Browns - boring as hell, especially if you take into account tens of keyboards I own (including Realforces and HHKB, and Model Fs) :D
czarek is spot on, you got to have a wide variety of boards in the rotation, from the Dell Quiet Key up to the Korean Custom. I thought I could purge some boards only to find myself wanting to swap them around. +1 for repping the most-hated cherry brown mx, it doesn't get the love it deserves! :)
Post by: zslane on Fri, 31 March 2017, 12:12:59
Post by: swagpiratex on Fri, 31 March 2017, 12:18:13
RSI are caused by incorrect application of force, which is the cause of trauma.
Topre caused some issues, the mx does not.
Your analysis is incorrect.
Please reread, cause of RSI is improper technique (user error). A rubber dome switch doesn't cause someone to injure themselves. It's a switch.
Moot point though, since OP said he's very aware of his posture. He just needs to acclimate.
Post by: dante on Fri, 31 March 2017, 12:36:18
I'm convinced people who claim Topre feels drastically different to standard rubber domes either have broken fingers or are 100% about the hype.
It isn't totally different from a rubber dome board but it does feel like a quality rubber dome board, also topre boards get better with age unlike a standard rubber dome.
Ok my first problem with the whole Rubber Dome vs. Topre debate which I'm sure will continue to be regurgitated for years is this label of "Rubber Dome."
First off "Rubber Dome = BAD, Topre = GOOD!" Ok, WHICH Rubber Dome? Nobody ever states this - they take a Dell or a Microsoft board and just lump the entire spectrum into what they've only used. Never mind there have probably been near (if not) triple digits of variations of membrane boards made. (Have you tried them all?)
Next is the propaganda. "Topre is so smooth!" Yeah? So why does it seem like 9 out of 10 users are lubing their boards?
I then hear tales of rubber domes "wearing out" in as little as two weeks. Again, WHICH Rubber Domes wear out in as little as two weeks? Do you mean get lighter feeling? It's possible. Topres are also known to get lighter in as little as two weeks.
I'm not saying people can't enjoy Topre more than the specific and limited number of rubber domes they've tried but lets keep the BS to a minimum please?
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 31 March 2017, 13:10:38
RSI are caused by incorrect application of force, which is the cause of trauma.
Topre caused some issues, the mx does not.
Your analysis is incorrect.
Please reread, cause of RSI is improper technique (user error). A rubber dome switch doesn't cause someone to injure themselves. It's a switch.
Moot point though, since OP said he's very aware of his posture. He just needs to acclimate.
At some point in time after switching to MX, the op didn't have any RSI.
So then the relapse happened AFTER going back to Topre..
Topre is what triggered the relapse.
If you want to nail everything on strict agency, then we can argue all the way back to god did this, and it's all god's fault.. That's not the point i'm making.
The most proximal instigator of RSI here is the Topre.
Post by: Joey Quinn on Fri, 31 March 2017, 16:59:57
I'm convinced people who claim Topre feels drastically different to standard rubber domes either have broken fingers or are 100% about the hype.
It isn't totally different from a rubber dome board but it does feel like a quality rubber dome board, also topre boards get better with age unlike a standard rubber dome.
Ok my first problem with the whole Rubber Dome vs. Topre debate which I'm sure will continue to be regurgitated for years is this label of "Rubber Dome."
First off "Rubber Dome = BAD, Topre = GOOD!" Ok, WHICH Rubber Dome? Nobody ever states this - they take a Dell or a Microsoft board and just lump the entire spectrum into what they've only used. Never mind there have probably been near (if not) triple digits of variations of membrane boards made. (Have you tried them all?)
Next is the propaganda. "Topre is so smooth!" Yeah? So why does it seem like 9 out of 10 users are lubing their boards?
I then hear tales of rubber domes "wearing out" in as little as two weeks. Again, WHICH Rubber Domes wear out in as little as two weeks? Do you mean get lighter feeling? It's possible. Topres are also known to get lighter in as little as two weeks.
I'm not saying people can't enjoy Topre more than the specific and limited number of rubber domes they've tried but lets keep the BS to a minimum please?
I never said all rubber dome boards are bad, I've used a few at work I actually like. Buckling rubber sleeve boards, like the ones made by Mitsumi, are also pretty nice depending on the board and so are some scissor switches. When I say rubber dome I'm talking about a rubber dome sheet over over 3 layers of plastic, aka. the classic rubber dome design, if I meant scissor switches or something else I'd specify what I was talking about.
I do think there's a lot of hype behind Topre that makes it sound better than it is but that's true for a lot of things in this hobby. OTD boards selling for several thousand dollars, clacks and other artisans selling for hundreds, the idea that Nixies are worth a few dollars a switch when the same feeling can be reproduced with a modded switch for much less. People just choose to call out hype on specific things when it suits them and they want to stand out from the general population. I'm not saying that the hype is a good thing but it's a reality across the hobby.
Post by: dante on Fri, 31 March 2017, 18:36:56
I have no idea how I became a rubber dome defender. I'm probably the only one on the forums that prefers them over Topre. LOL!
Post by: Joey Quinn on Fri, 31 March 2017, 18:48:05
Yeah I didn't mean you specifically. I'm just a bitter old retro grouch tired of the nonsense.
I have no idea how I became a rubber dome defender. I'm probably the only one on the forums that prefers them over Topre. LOL!
How do you feel about HHKB Lites?
Post by: dante on Fri, 31 March 2017, 18:56:10
Yeah I didn't mean you specifically. I'm just a bitter old retro grouch tired of the nonsense.
I have no idea how I became a rubber dome defender. I'm probably the only one on the forums that prefers them over Topre. LOL!
How do you feel about HHKB Lites?
HHKB Lites feel alright by me. But don't take my word for it though look in the Amazon reviews. Some are buying another after using their previous for over 5 years.
Wait a minute how can that be? I thought rubber domes only last two weeks tops? :rolleyes:
Post by: Polymer on Fri, 31 March 2017, 19:01:24
First off "Rubber Dome = BAD, Topre = GOOD!" Ok, WHICH Rubber Dome? Nobody ever states this - they take a Dell or a Microsoft board and just lump the entire spectrum into what they've only used. Never mind there have probably been near (if not) triple digits of variations of membrane boards made. (Have you tried them all?)When you say "have you tried them all" that's one of those silly arguments people make..you don't have to have tried every single one to make an assessment.
There are a lot of very good rubber dome keyboards out there..do I think any of them are as good as Topre? No..not even one. Do I think some of them are still very good keyboards? Yes of course. A good slider creating a solid bottom out, stability, smoothness..it will feel very close to how Topre feels...At that point the only difference is they're likely not capacitive which does give you the impression of better responsiveness. It is also more reliable.
Add to this the keycaps are very good on Topre...Not a huge number of normal rubber dome keyboards with Dye Subbed PBT...
But curious as to which current rubber dome keyboards you like? I actually don't mind one of the MS keyboards they used to make because of the stability and solid bottom out feel...but I don't prefer it to Topre..
Next is the propaganda. "Topre is so smooth!" Yeah? So why does it seem like 9 out of 10 users are lubing their boards?It IS smooth..very smooth...and definitely 9 out of 10 are not lubing their Topre...But when modding your Topre board a lot of people do it...My guess is because the pads themselves probably make it feel less smooth..and it helps with the clanky spacebar stabilizer.
Rubber dome keyboards in general are very smooth. The difference is they generally do not have the high quality slider that gives them that extra stability that will make it feel like it is smoother.
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 31 March 2017, 19:05:10
At least according to a few of my Japanese programmer friends
Post by: Joey Quinn on Fri, 31 March 2017, 19:17:12
It's also worth mentioning every programmer worth their salt in Japan (that i know of) uses a topre
At least according to a few of my Japanese programmer friends
Sort of similar to this, HHKBs seem to be the go to nice keyboard for non keyboard enthusiasts (or whatever you'd call us).
Post by: iwantatrophy on Fri, 31 March 2017, 23:12:32
It's also worth mentioning every programmer worth their salt in Japan (that i know of) uses a topre
At least according to a few of my Japanese programmer friends
Sort of similar to this, HHKBs seem to be the go to nice keyboard for non keyboard enthusiasts (or whatever you'd call us).
TBH, Japanese guys typically like to use Japanese products : most of my friends there have PS4s or Sony smartphones, so I won't be surprised if they regularly use Topre as keyboards.
Post by: ander on Sat, 01 April 2017, 00:10:40
Post by: happylacquer on Sat, 01 April 2017, 09:03:46
It's also worth mentioning every programmer worth their salt in Japan (that i know of) uses a topre
At least according to a few of my Japanese programmer friends
Sort of similar to this, HHKBs seem to be the go to nice keyboard for non keyboard enthusiasts (or whatever you'd call us).
Ive seen you post pics of your artisans and ****. You can't call yourself a non enthusiast ^-^ :))
Post by: Thereminz on Sat, 01 April 2017, 11:11:52
I tried it, it was ok but people described it as some life changing experience
Topre hype...it's not even mechanical
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 01 April 2017, 14:40:53
Dunno why people like topre so much
I tried it, it was ok but people described it as some life changing experience
Topre hype...it's not even mechanical
It is hype.. But it is mechanical.. any keyboard with moving parts is mechanical.
Post by: chyros on Sat, 01 April 2017, 19:03:49
Then so is a rubber dome keyboard :p .Dunno why people like topre so much
I tried it, it was ok but people described it as some life changing experience
Topre hype...it's not even mechanical
It is hype.. But it is mechanical.. any keyboard with moving parts is mechanical.
But I honestly believe a lot of the hype is buyer's justification.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 01 April 2017, 19:17:55
Then so is a rubber dome keyboard :p .Dunno why people like topre so much
I tried it, it was ok but people described it as some life changing experience
Topre hype...it's not even mechanical
It is hype.. But it is mechanical.. any keyboard with moving parts is mechanical.
But I honestly believe a lot of the hype is buyer's justification.
It HAS to be buyer's justification..
There is no other explanation.. Anytime someone professes such non-technical devotion to a machine, it's 100% emotionally driven.. There is no objective evaluation in there to be had..
Tp4 is one with the egdx, but the Difference is Tp4's obsession hinges upon very specific Functional assessments as to why the Egdx is superior to all other keyboards on the market.
Post by: digi on Sat, 01 April 2017, 19:19:17
Then so is a rubber dome keyboard :p .Dunno why people like topre so much
I tried it, it was ok but people described it as some life changing experience
Topre hype...it's not even mechanical
It is hype.. But it is mechanical.. any keyboard with moving parts is mechanical.
But I honestly believe a lot of the hype is buyer's justification.
It HAS to be buyer's justification..
There is no other explanation.. Anytime someone professes such non-technical devotion to a machine, it's 100% emotionally driven.. There is no objective evaluation in there to be had..
Tp4 is one with the egdx, but the Difference is Tp4's obsession hinges upon very specific Functional assessments as to why the Egdx is superior to all other keyboards on the market.
Please break down it down in a math equation
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 01 April 2017, 19:44:00
Please break down it down in a math equation
Tp4 dare not challenge Digi's immense math prowess
Post by: digi on Sat, 01 April 2017, 19:44:55
Please break down it down in a math equation
Tp4 dare not challenge Digi's immense math prowess
(https://media.giphy.com/media/I4Jmrcjnr8Zfq/giphy.gif)
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Sat, 01 April 2017, 23:13:16
All kinds of RSI are caused by incorrect application of force, which is the cause of trauma. Typing technique can be adjusted rather easily (using a technique that hurts, vs one that doesn't hurt.)
Posture is more difficult to correct, especially if you aren't aware of the issue. And as the day goes on, also becomes to more difficult to self-correct since supporting skeletal muscles become fatigued as well. This is 100% related to posture, RSI is inherently a biomechanical problem.
There is no objective way to say one is harder than the other to do.
We can safely assume that either is do-able..
But this can not be posture related, because he's using 2 different keyboards on the same chair and table.
Topre caused some issues, the mx does not.
Your analysis is incorrect.
All kinds of RSI are caused by incorrect application of force, which is the cause of trauma. Typing technique can be adjusted rather easily (using a technique that hurts, vs one that doesn't hurt.)
Posture is more difficult to correct, especially if you aren't aware of the issue. And as the day goes on, also becomes to more difficult to self-correct since supporting skeletal muscles become fatigued as well. This is 100% related to posture, RSI is inherently a biomechanical problem.
There is no objective way to say one is harder than the other to do.
We can safely assume that either is do-able..
But this can not be posture related, because he's using 2 different keyboards on the same chair and table.
Topre caused some issues, the mx does not.
Your analysis is incorrect.
I'm not sure how the board itself would cause RSI unless the force curve causes one to slam down and bottom out the keys or the angle is not adjusted properly.
I've suffered from some pretty bad carpal tunnel with pain and numbness in my first two fingers. Poor ergonomics at work. I raised the level of the monitors 4 or 5 inches and raised the chair and moved the keyboards closer. This forces a very erect posture and holding your arms and wrists similar to a piano player. Leaning forward and hunched over kind of forces you to rest your wrist on the table and slump your back, head, and shoulders forward.
After about 6 or 7 months the pain and numbness is about 90% resolved.
Post by: dante on Sun, 02 April 2017, 10:17:19
First off "Rubber Dome = BAD, Topre = GOOD!" Ok, WHICH Rubber Dome? Nobody ever states this - they take a Dell or a Microsoft board and just lump the entire spectrum into what they've only used. Never mind there have probably been near (if not) triple digits of variations of membrane boards made. (Have you tried them all?)When you say "have you tried them all" that's one of those silly arguments people make..you don't have to have tried every single one to make an assessment.
So if I understand you right then if I try Black Alps and don't like them then don't bother trying any other Alps switches because they all suck too?
Post by: Photoelectric on Sun, 02 April 2017, 11:05:19
So the point is the same as what a number of others made before me: there's no one-board-fits-all situation. And furthermore, your task, your typing technique and posture, and even keyboard height and profile, and keycaps--all have an effect on what your preferred keyboard should be. You can change any number of things on your Realforce before you could decide that you suddenly love it. Or that moment might not arrive, and you'll go back to your keyboard with ergo-Clears.
Post by: bmilcs on Sun, 02 April 2017, 17:38:23
I'm going to shift the direction of the conversation to my current scenario...
According to the guide posted on another geekhack thread... 3/16" was perfect for the mod. Here is a picture of my Topre stems disassembled with a 3/16" added to it.
I ordered some 3/18" Extra Heavy bands from Amazon and here's how big they are...
(https://i.imgur.com/Domy4Ku.jpg)
Compared to the original post...
(http://i.imgur.com/Os3YrAch.jpg)
Is this right? 3/16"? So confused.
Also, does anyone have any tips for removing an unknown lubricant from Topre stems? Should I throw them in a mixing bowl and wash with soap and water? Isopropyl alcohol?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sun, 02 April 2017, 18:28:11
Show Image
Right on. Thank you all for your input...
I'm going to shift the direction of the conversation to my current scenario...
According to the guide posted on another geekhack thread... 3/16" was perfect for the mod. Here is a picture of my Topre stems disassembled with a 3/16" added to it.
I ordered some 3/18" Extra Heavy bands from Amazon and here's how big they are...
(https://i.imgur.com/Domy4Ku.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/Domy4Ku.jpg)
Compared to the original post...
(http://i.imgur.com/Os3YrAch.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/Os3YrAch.jpg)
Is this right? 3/16"? So confused.
Also, does anyone have any tips for removing an unknown lubricant from Topre stems? Should I throw them in a mixing bowl and wash with soap and water? Isopropyl alcohol?
It could also be the perspective and zoom being used but I don't remember mine looking quite like that.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
EDIT: Reading again you said you bought extra heavy, that is your problem you need medium, 3.5oz, 3/16".
Post by: MJ45 on Sun, 02 April 2017, 18:38:02
Any size dental bands are just wrong, IMHO Hypershere rings or RF silent rings + sliders are necessary for proper Topre feel.
Post by: bmilcs on Sun, 02 April 2017, 20:01:44
Post by: zslane on Sun, 02 April 2017, 21:04:16
Post by: ander on Mon, 03 April 2017, 03:35:14
Topres may feel similar to RDs when you press them—but when you release them, they're so different. With its beefy graduated spring, a Topre's recoil is way, way more substantial, more precise, than an RD's dumbass, plumber's-helper-style unbuckling. And the sound. Yes, it's goofy, loving how a key sounds when you release it—and yes, I realize I'm using way too many italics here—but there's nothing else like it. Nothing.
And it's mechanical—which means it's not going to start getting all inconsistent on you like an RD can, and probably will if you use it very long.
OP: If you think even a 45/35g Realforce would be too taxing, consider one of the uniform 35g Plum capacitive boards (https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1900). I'd find it way too light (at 45g, MX Reds feel insubstantial to me), but it may be just what you're looking for.
Post by: ander on Mon, 03 April 2017, 03:39:00
Post by: Polymer on Mon, 03 April 2017, 07:45:19
First off "Rubber Dome = BAD, Topre = GOOD!" Ok, WHICH Rubber Dome? Nobody ever states this - they take a Dell or a Microsoft board and just lump the entire spectrum into what they've only used. Never mind there have probably been near (if not) triple digits of variations of membrane boards made. (Have you tried them all?)When you say "have you tried them all" that's one of those silly arguments people make..you don't have to have tried every single one to make an assessment.
So if I understand you right then if I try Black Alps and don't like them then don't bother trying any other Alps switches because they all suck too?
Did I say that? You do NOT need to have tried every single membrane keyboard to have a good honest qualified opinion on them. Surely you'd have tried more than ONE before forming what you'd consider an educated opinion, but it doesn't need to be "have you tried them all".
And now somehow you've translated that into being able to make that assessment by just trying ONE of something? That's nearly as ridiculous as the first statement.
But can you make an assessment on Alps having tried a fair number? ABSOLUTELY. 100% YES YOU CAN.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 03 April 2017, 07:59:35
With all due respect, I heartily disagree that Topres are anything, from a user standpoint, like rubber domes.
Topres may feel similar to RDs when you press them—but when you release them, they're so different. With its beefy graduated spring, a Topre's recoil is way, way more substantial, more precise, than an RD's dumbass, plumber's-helper-style unbuckling. And the sound. Yes, it's goofy, loving how a key sounds when you release it—and yes, I realize I'm using way too many italics here—but there's nothing else like it. Nothing.
And it's mechanical—which means it's not going to start getting all inconsistent on you like an RD can, and probably will if you use it very long.
OP: If you think even a 45/35g Realforce would be too taxing, consider one of the uniform 35g Plum capacitive boards (https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1900). I'd find it way too light (at 45g, MX Reds feel insubstantial to me), but it may be just what you're looking for.
That is precisely what a Choice-supportive bias is..
You've purchased Topre.. it's weeb-tastic.. but as a keyboard, it's really not so special..
There's nothing functional which Topre does superior, as to justify their higher price tag.
So, now you turn to justify your purchase the only way possible..
You've picked arbitrary elements.. Things that have absolutely 0-influence on keyboard usage.. And decided that this sound differentiation is what makes Topre superior..
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 03 April 2017, 07:59:42
Post by: zslane on Mon, 03 April 2017, 11:50:29
What size board is the OP looking for? I have a Noppoo EC108Pro that I tried for about a week but gave up on because it was too light for
me (around 35g I'm guessing). I'd be open to selling it if the OP is interested.
Post by: bmilcs on Mon, 03 April 2017, 13:36:41
Show ImageRight on. Thank you all for your input...
I'm going to shift the direction of the conversation to my current scenario...
According to the guide posted on another geekhack thread... 3/16" was perfect for the mod. Here is a picture of my Topre stems disassembled with a 3/16" added to it.
I ordered some 3/18" Extra Heavy bands from Amazon and here's how big they are...
(https://i.imgur.com/Domy4Ku.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/Domy4Ku.jpg)
Compared to the original post...
(http://i.imgur.com/Os3YrAch.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/Os3YrAch.jpg)
Is this right? 3/16"? So confused.
Also, does anyone have any tips for removing an unknown lubricant from Topre stems? Should I throw them in a mixing bowl and wash with soap and water? Isopropyl alcohol?
It could also be the perspective and zoom being used but I don't remember mine looking quite like that.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
EDIT: Reading again you said you bought extra heavy, that is your problem you need medium, 3.5oz, 3/16".
You nailed it bro. Thank you so much.
Also, GOT DAMN. Hyperspheres for $75?!
Post by: Polymer on Mon, 03 April 2017, 15:54:00
That is precisely what a Choice-supportive bias is..
You've purchased Topre.. it's weeb-tastic.. but as a keyboard, it's really not so special..
There's nothing functional which Topre does superior, as to justify their higher price tag.
So, now you turn to justify your purchase the only way possible..
You've picked arbitrary elements.. Things that have absolutely 0-influence on keyboard usage.. And decided that this sound differentiation is what makes Topre superior..
Still on this silly stance....it used to be because it was so expensive..then cheaper alternatives came out and that argument was proven to be all it was originally, worthless.
What is there to justify? Topre isn't that expensive...When you factor in high quality dye subs it is all about the same.
Why do people like Topre? Because they enjoy how it feels..I'm not sure why you think that is so hard to understand..and your experience with it is all of a couple of hours? Even previous TP4 follower/Topre hater who is now banned (LinkB*ne) is using Topre.
And given you can sell your Topre for about what you paid for it, there is no reason to try to rationalize your purchase...If you really don't like it you get rid of it..simple.
Do I think some of the fanboy following is a bit much? Sure...but is it a good keyboard? Very good..
Post by: zslane on Mon, 03 April 2017, 16:20:11
Not only do you have to face the snide criticisms of non-Topre fans, you also have to face the jibes of the Topre traditionalists who dump all over Topre's latest products (like the RealForce RGB).
I have no problem with anyone who tries a Topre-based board and decides it's not for them. However, I do have a problem with anyone who thinks they know whether or not someone else will (or worse, ought to) like Topre switches.
Post by: Photoelectric on Mon, 03 April 2017, 16:21:58
It can be tough being a Topre fan.
Not only do you have to face the snide criticisms of non-Topre fans, you also have to face the jibes of the Topre traditionalists who dump all over Topre's latest products (like the RealForce RGB).
I have no problem with anyone who tries a Topre-based board and decides it's not for them. However, I do have a problem with anyone who thinks they know whether or not someone else will (or worse, ought to) like Topre switches.
Welcome to the internet :)
Post by: digi on Mon, 03 April 2017, 16:22:11
However, I do have a problem with anyone who thinks they know whether or not someone else will (or worse, ought to) like Topre switches.
For anyone who hasn't tried Topre, BUY IT NOW! You're welcome!! mmmmmm Topre, best switches NA.
Post by: Polymer on Mon, 03 April 2017, 16:51:52
Not only do you have to face the snide criticisms of non-Topre fans, you also have to face the jibes of the Topre traditionalists who dump all over Topre's latest products (like the RealForce RGB).
I don't mind the RF RGB..I just don't like how the switches sound (although modded they seem to sound fine) and it is only available in Full...
Now, factory silenced with slightly longer stems in TKL...is a buy..and I don't care about the RGB portion..
Post by: bmilcs on Mon, 03 April 2017, 18:08:42
Post by: zslane on Mon, 03 April 2017, 18:44:50
Not only do you have to face the snide criticisms of non-Topre fans, you also have to face the jibes of the Topre traditionalists who dump all over Topre's latest products (like the RealForce RGB).
I don't mind the RF RGB..I just don't like how the switches sound (although modded they seem to sound fine) and it is only available in Full...
Now, factory silenced with slightly longer stems in TKL...is a buy..and I don't care about the RGB portion..
What drew me to the RF RGB was its 108-key format and its MX-compatible stems. There is no other Topre-made keyboard in the world with those two features. I don't use the backlighting or the variable actuation feature, and couldn't care less about either. It's the size and stem mount that matter to me. TKL is a useless layout for me, otherwise I would have invested heavily in NovaTouch boards. However, I do use a 60% board with my iPad and I would love a 60% version of the RF RGB. But when was the last time Topre made a 60% keyboard?
And I completely agree about the silencing bit. I would have preferred if the RF RGB had come factory silenced, but it didn't and so I had to do the silencing mod myself. It was a royal PITA, but it was pretty easy and totally worth it (to me). An unsilenced RF RGB is unusable to me because of the upstroke noise. A silenced RF RGB, on the other hand, is my end-game board.
Post by: Rob27shred on Mon, 03 April 2017, 19:05:22
The more I use my RealForce, the less I like it. It was nice at first, but more and more I get the feeling they're just rubber domes. And not even the nicest rubber domes I know :/ .
Tp4 completely agrees.. Topre is weeb hype, 100%.. Topre IS rubber dome.. there's no differentiation whatsoever..
The force curve between each cup will be quite dissimilar relative to springs which are highly uniform.
Is topre a bad keyboard, NO, should it be valued at more than $100 , Heck NO..
Quite honestly this is exactly why I have yet to give Topre a try^ The price of admission is just way too high & I realistically can not see it being that superior to a MX board. I mean I still want to give Topre a try but the limited & light weighting options, limited key cap compatibility, & mixed opinion on it have me pretty leery to even pay $100 to give Topre a shot TBH.
Post by: zslane on Mon, 03 April 2017, 19:40:25
Quite honestly this is exactly why I have yet to give Topre a try^ The price of admission is just way too high & I realistically can not see it being that superior to a MX board. I mean I still want to give Topre a try but the limited & light weighting options, limited key cap compatibility, & mixed opinion on it have me pretty leery to even pay $100 to give Topre a shot TBH.
1. If the retail price is too high, then you might have better luck buying used. Otherwise, it'll remain forever out of reach and you'll never truly know whether or not you like it more than MX.
2. There is only 45g, 55g, and "variable" (a combination of the two). If you absolutely must have something heavier, Topre is probably not for you.
3. Keycap compatibility is solved with the RealForce RGB. However, see comment #1.
4. Opinions are highly subjective and of dubious value. Ultimately the only opinion that counts is your own.
Post by: Rob27shred on Mon, 03 April 2017, 21:01:13
Quite honestly this is exactly why I have yet to give Topre a try^ The price of admission is just way too high & I realistically can not see it being that superior to a MX board. I mean I still want to give Topre a try but the limited & light weighting options, limited key cap compatibility, & mixed opinion on it have me pretty leery to even pay $100 to give Topre a shot TBH.
1. If the retail price is too high, then you might have better luck buying used. Otherwise, it'll remain forever out of reach and you'll never truly know whether or not you like it more than MX.
2. There is only 45g, 55g, and "variable" (a combination of the two). If you absolutely must have something heavier, Topre is probably not for you.
3. Keycap compatibility is solved with the RealForce RGB. However, see comment #1.
4. Opinions are highly subjective and of dubious value. Ultimately the only opinion that counts is your own.
You do make a very good point with 1, I have been keeping my eyes out on here & /r/mechmarket hoping to find the magic combo of price & timing on a decent 2nd hand Topre board. The weighting is the biggest issue I have but I think the 55g variant would be enough for me. I definitely prefer heavier switches (I'm typing this reply on 80g blacks ;D) but can be just fine with lighter ones too. I've thought about getting a Type Heaven to test drive Topre since they are more affordable boards but have have been told they lack the true Topre feel you get from a RF or HHKB. What do you Topre guys think about the Type Heavens? I do realize it's not gonna be as stout as a RF but does it really feel that different as to be not worth buying. I have noticed that the Type Heavens are very rarely mentioned when Topre is brought up. :-\
Post by: Joey Quinn on Mon, 03 April 2017, 23:44:55
You do make a very good point with 1, I have been keeping my eyes out on here & /r/mechmarket hoping to find the magic combo of price & timing on a decent 2nd hand Topre board. The weighting is the biggest issue I have but I think the 55g variant would be enough for me. I definitely prefer heavier switches (I'm typing this reply on 80g blacks ;D) but can be just fine with lighter ones too. I've thought about getting a Type Heaven to test drive Topre since they are more affordable boards but have have been told they lack the true Topre feel you get from a RF or HHKB. What do you Topre guys think about the Type Heavens? I do realize it's not gonna be as stout as a RF but does it really feel that different as to be not worth buying. I have noticed that the Type Heavens are very rarely mentioned when Topre is brought up. :-\
I switch back and forth between a 55g HHKB and 78g lubed gat clears in my GON so 55g may be the way to go if you get a topre board.
I think Type Heavens are generally looked at as lesser quality than RFs and HHKBs but I've never tried one so I'm not sure how they compare.
Post by: dgneo on Tue, 04 April 2017, 09:30:16
topre sucks so stop trying
hi mike!
Post by: mike52787 on Tue, 04 April 2017, 22:23:02
hey pal (no hard feelings :B)topre sucks so stop trying
hi mike!
Post by: Polymer on Wed, 05 April 2017, 01:51:40
You do make a very good point with 1, I have been keeping my eyes out on here & /r/mechmarket hoping to find the magic combo of price & timing on a decent 2nd hand Topre board. The weighting is the biggest issue I have but I think the 55g variant would be enough for me. I definitely prefer heavier switches (I'm typing this reply on 80g blacks ;D) but can be just fine with lighter ones too. I've thought about getting a Type Heaven to test drive Topre since they are more affordable boards but have have been told they lack the true Topre feel you get from a RF or HHKB. What do you Topre guys think about the Type Heavens? I do realize it's not gonna be as stout as a RF but does it really feel that different as to be not worth buying. I have noticed that the Type Heavens are very rarely mentioned when Topre is brought up. :-\
55g isn't that light as all of the force is upfront vs getting some momentum from MX switches that ramp up in weight but start off requiring less force to move them...
What you given up going to a Type Heaven is not worth it IMO...one of the great things with RF (Not the RGB) is the great keycaps...Just buy a regular RF, try it (really try it) for a couple of months..go back and forth between it and your other keyboards but really give it a chance. If you don't like it, you can just sell it and maybe lose 20-30 dollars. Really that's nothing given it has been used by you and you won't have to wonder if you're missing out...
Post by: orpheo on Wed, 05 April 2017, 04:58:42
To me it sounds really funny, kind of like :" I didn't like Paris the last time I visited, maybe I will like it next vacation if I fly first class instead of business class !"
Post by: DRAZAH on Wed, 05 April 2017, 08:17:37
Investing in a HHKB if you don't like the Topre RF?
To me it sounds really funny, kind of like :" I didn't like Paris the last time I visited, maybe I will like it next vacation if I fly first class instead of business class !"
I have an HHKB Pro 2 and an RF 87U 55g, they are virtually not comparable other than the fact they are both "Topre" boards. They both feel and sound completely different so it's not that far-fetched. I would say its more like "I tried the beaches on the Gulf, now I am going to see what the beaches are like in SoCal".
Post by: Prince Valiant on Wed, 05 April 2017, 09:58:20
I love how my post turned into an all out brawl lol.There's not much else to do once dropping Topre or trying modifications/specific boards have been suggested ;).
Post by: bmilcs on Thu, 06 April 2017, 05:55:58
I love how my post turned into an all out brawl lol.There's not much else to do once dropping Topre or trying modifications/specific boards have been suggested ;).
^ ^
I didn't realize it was such a volatile subject.
Post by: dante on Thu, 06 April 2017, 12:42:59
Investing in a HHKB if you don't like the Topre RF?
To me it sounds really funny, kind of like :" I didn't like Paris the last time I visited, maybe I will like it next vacation if I fly first class instead of business class !"
I'm primarily a rubber dome user. Contrary to the myths perpetuated by the MK brotherhood different rubberdome boards can feel very unique and have different levels of quality.
It's not inconceivable that one Topre board feels less crappy than another depending on personal preferences.
Post by: bmilcs on Thu, 06 April 2017, 19:27:00
what's the trick to realigning the left shift bar
Post by: Polymer on Fri, 07 April 2017, 03:21:35
i just finished the dental banding with medium 3.5 oz 3/16' dental bands. i am surprised how much it affected the stroke... the distance is staggeringly shorter than before. i definitely think the lube helped but the dental bands are far too much. i'm going to have to remove them ugh. also, i don't know why but this is the third time i've taken a topre apart and the third time i've had issues with the left shift bar only.
what's the trick to realigning the left shift bar
You need them to be really thin..that's probably not going to do it....
Have you thought about trying a variable?
Post by: drewafx on Fri, 07 April 2017, 09:20:06
Post by: zslane on Fri, 07 April 2017, 11:47:08
i just finished the dental banding with medium 3.5 oz 3/16' dental bands. i am surprised how much it affected the stroke... the distance is staggeringly shorter than before. i definitely think the lube helped but the dental bands are far too much. i'm going to have to remove them ugh. also, i don't know why but this is the third time i've taken a topre apart and the third time i've had issues with the left shift bar only.
what's the trick to realigning the left shift bar
Yeah, I could tell just from looking at photos of the 3.5oz bands that they would be way too thick. I am going to try 2.5oz but they may also be too thick. I suspect that what we really need are 1.5oz bands, but I don't know if such things even exist (as dental bands, I mean). The bands that come with the Chinese Topre knock-offs are like 1.5oz, by my estimates.
Post by: digi on Fri, 07 April 2017, 12:25:39
"NO! THE COLOR PURPLE SUCKS, YOU SHOULD BE LIKING THE COLOR GREEN"
"ok guys, I like the color green"
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 07 April 2017, 12:47:30
"hey guys, I like the color purple"
"NO! THE COLOR PURPLE SUCKS, YOU SHOULD BE LIKING THE COLOR GREEN"
"ok guys, I like the color green"
Ergodox is a tp4's favorite color.. it's way better than either purple or green or both.
Post by: digi on Fri, 07 April 2017, 12:52:12
"hey guys, I like the color purple"
"NO! THE COLOR PURPLE SUCKS, YOU SHOULD BE LIKING THE COLOR GREEN"
"ok guys, I like the color green"
Ergodox is a tp4's favorite color.. it's way better than either purple or green or both.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/WrVOtWEay7fJS/giphy.gif)
Post by: Joey Quinn on Fri, 07 April 2017, 14:49:18
"hey guys, I like the color purple"
"NO! THE COLOR PURPLE SUCKS, YOU SHOULD BE LIKING THE COLOR GREEN"
"ok guys, I like the color green"
This needs to become the standard answer to the electro capacitive vs mechanical switch argument.
Post by: zslane on Fri, 07 April 2017, 14:53:54
"hey guys, I like the color purple"
"NO! THE COLOR PURPLE SUCKS, YOU SHOULD BE LIKING THE COLOR GREEN"
"ok guys, I like the color green"
Drazi nod with approval.
Post by: bmilcs on Fri, 07 April 2017, 18:41:08
"hey guys, I like the color purple"
"NO! THE COLOR PURPLE SUCKS, YOU SHOULD BE LIKING THE COLOR GREEN"
"ok guys, I like the color green"
Ergodox is a tp4's favorite color.. it's way better than either purple or green or both.
Lol dude. Wanna see my literally unused Ergodox? I put Gat Blues in it and I don't know why; I should probably just resolder and give it another shot.
(http://i.imgur.com/Pley4Ch.jpg)
I forgot. I think you can remove the switch tops w/o desoldering right? I could make them lubed zealios :P
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 07 April 2017, 20:04:18
Lol dude. Wanna see my literally unused Ergodox? I put Gat Blues in it and I don't know why; I should probably just resolder and give it another shot.
I forgot. I think you can remove the switch tops w/o desoldering right? I could make them lubed zealios :P
So... ur selling these to fund this new drug habit of yours ?
Post by: bmilcs on Sat, 08 April 2017, 09:16:56
Lol dude. Wanna see my literally unused Ergodox? I put Gat Blues in it and I don't know why; I should probably just resolder and give it another shot.
I forgot. I think you can remove the switch tops w/o desoldering right? I could make them lubed zealios :P
So... ur selling these to fund this new drug habit of yours ?
No mas drogas por favor.
What switches are you using on your Ergodox? Also, got any spare DCS keycaps ? :-D
I think the one thing that turned me off the Ergodox was the annoying task of reprogramming it. There's fantastic software for teh Planck, that makes macro's and the like very, very easy. The Infinity Ergodox? Not so much.
Post by: dantan on Sat, 08 April 2017, 11:18:14
But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use. I don't know if it's the lack of sweet, sweet GMK keycaps or my beloved 62g thoroughly lubed ergoclears... but both 87u's are causing me issues. I think I attribute it to the PBT & plate-mounted switches, so I don't want to write Topre off just yet!
What do you suggest I do? Do I give in to the dreaded 60% HHKB and give that a go for a while? I am a firm believer in modification, and that may be why my KUL ES-87 has stood the test of time as boards pass in and out of my collection.
I am concerned mostly with the layout of the HHKB and the steep-ish angle of the case. I use F-keys constantly, as well as ctrl + shift + arrows and ctrl + end, ctrl +pagedown, etc. Does anyone else here use this functionality constantly on their HHKB? I dread not loving and being less efficient with the topre life.
Thoughts?
Isn't the solution simple? Plum makes 35g that are nearly the same in feel as Topre. And much cheaper too! And programmable with PBT keycaps! Seriously, I think Topre's days are numbered.
Post by: zslane on Sat, 08 April 2017, 11:34:05
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 08 April 2017, 14:41:48
Lol dude. Wanna see my literally unused Ergodox? I put Gat Blues in it and I don't know why; I should probably just resolder and give it another shot.
I forgot. I think you can remove the switch tops w/o desoldering right? I could make them lubed zealios :P
So... ur selling these to fund this new drug habit of yours ?
No mas drogas por favor.
What switches are you using on your Ergodox? Also, got any spare DCS keycaps ? :-D
I think the one thing that turned me off the Ergodox was the annoying task of reprogramming it. There's fantastic software for teh Planck, that makes macro's and the like very, very easy. The Infinity Ergodox? Not so much.
I use the ergodox to type so.. haven't ran into any problemed usage scenarios on my end, because what I do is mostly text related.
Post by: dante on Sat, 08 April 2017, 15:23:55
It's also worth mentioning every programmer worth their salt in Japan (that i know of) uses a topre
At least according to a few of my Japanese programmer friends
Japanese people preferring a Japanese product? :eek:
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 08 April 2017, 15:40:50
It's also worth mentioning every programmer worth their salt in Japan (that i know of) uses a topre
At least according to a few of my Japanese programmer friends
Japanese people preferring a Japanese product? :eek:
Everything made and SOLD in domestic japan TO its domestic market is of higher industrial standards than anywhere else in the world. Hence higher costs..
However, DO those higher standards produce any product which meaningfully improves the use cases consumers use them for..
HECK NO... it's a keyboard , year 2017, that's like going into the 1950s and marketing your forks as the ultimate fork, True or not, it just doesn't matter.
Best example.. Russian piano conservatories..
They got the absolute BEST competition players anywhere in the world.. ANYWHERE. these folks are perfect piano playing machines.. absolutely perfect..
But, the majority of their conservatories are spotted with some of the most broke down and crappiest pianos around..
Thats because the quality of the piano has little to no influence on the PLAYING of the piano..
Just as a keyboard has so very little influence on how people type/program/game
Post by: zslane on Sat, 08 April 2017, 16:01:51
Just as a keyboard has so very little influence on how people type/program/game
I'm not sure what is meant by "how people type", but different keyboards definitely make the typing experience different for me. Even if there is little difference in average wpm or accuracy, the pleasure I get from using one keyboard versus another is an important factor in the overall experience. But I have found that my wpm and accuracy do change depending on the switch/keycap combination, and there are very good biomechanical reasons for this. So I would have to disagree quite strongly that a keyboard as very little influence on "how I type".
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 08 April 2017, 16:07:14
Just as a keyboard has so very little influence on how people type/program/game
I'm not sure what is meant by "how people type", but different keyboards definitely make the typing experience different for me. Even if there is little difference in average wpm or accuracy, the pleasure I get from using one keyboard versus another is an important factor in the overall experience. But I have found that my wpm and accuracy do change depending on the switch/keycap combination, and there are very good biomechanical reasons for this. So I would have to disagree quite strongly that a keyboard as very little influence on "how I type".
Well, you're wrong..
The measurements and perspective of your claim is only relevant to NON-objective evaluations of any keyboard..
For example.. the newest samsung phone is faster, way faster, but the majority of humans just use these to browse for and chat up females on facebook..
What has all the technological improvements of the newest phone really done..
The issue here is Threshold.. Once the design and speed reaches a certain level, the bottle neck is USAGE, the human user.
You can not meaningfully improve your life with a mechanically improved keyboard.
YOU CAN JUDGE the keyboard as being better, and it would be TRUE, but that distinction has no hold on what you can accomplish in USAGE. Whatever you can DO with the keyboard is not bound by the keyboard's quality, above the $5 membrane dome boards.
Your experience, the feel, the sound, the mechanical tolerance.. all woefully insignificant relative to the time you've consumed evaluating these inconsequential properties...
Post by: zslane on Sat, 08 April 2017, 16:21:37
Your experience, the feel, the sound, the mechanical tolerance.. all woefully insignificant relative to the time you've consumed evaluating these inconsequential properties...
I'm afraid you can only make that determination for yourself, not others, and certainly not for me.
Your statement is a broad refutation of all hobbies, which I find odd coming from someone spending so much time adding so many bytes to a forum dedicated to one.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 08 April 2017, 16:24:12
Your experience, the feel, the sound, the mechanical tolerance.. all woefully insignificant relative to the time you've consumed evaluating these inconsequential properties...
I'm afraid you can only make that determination for yourself, not others, and certainly not for me.
Your statement is a broad refutation of all hobbies, which I find odd coming from someone spending so much time adding so many bytes to a forum dedicated to one.
I do not refute the futility of my personal existence and actions.. hahahahhaa
But your claim that any mechanically different or superior keyboard has any influence on its utility to YOU is plain wrong.
Can a keyboard be Better, YES
Are you the User better off with the better keyboard, NO
Post by: bmilcs on Sat, 08 April 2017, 18:50:39
Post by: digi on Sat, 08 April 2017, 19:08:08
Your experience, the feel, the sound, the mechanical tolerance.. all woefully insignificant relative to the time you've consumed evaluating these inconsequential properties...
I'm afraid you can only make that determination for yourself, not others, and certainly not for me.
Your statement is a broad refutation of all hobbies, which I find odd coming from someone spending so much time adding so many bytes to a forum dedicated to one.
I do not refute the futility of my personal existence and actions.. hahahahhaa
But your claim that any mechanically different or superior keyboard has any influence on its utility to YOU is plain wrong.
Can a keyboard be Better, YES
Are you the User better off with the better keyboard, NO
Since I bought cherry silvers my APM increased by 272
Post by: drewafx on Sat, 08 April 2017, 19:25:27
Post by: digi on Sat, 08 April 2017, 19:26:34
Post by: dantan on Sat, 08 April 2017, 20:13:12
If the Plum 35g feels anything like my Noppoo 35g then I can say without hesitation that it does not feel anything at all like a genuine Topre board. And the build quality is nothing like the build quality of a RealForce (or even a NovaTouch). Topre's dominance in the high-end electrocapacitive keyboard market is quite safe, I think.
I have tried all of them and honestly don't find them any different.
I've also got a friend who sold his Topre for a Royal Kludge preferring the changeable keycaps and the backlighting.
The folks who like Topre, are like wine lovers to me. Some people can appreciate wine a lot, and tell the difference between Chateau le'Expensive and Chateau de la Cheapo even if they are merely on opposite banks of the Garonne.
Some people can't tell the difference between wine and grape juice. I suspect quite a lot of people can't tell the difference between Topre, Noppoo, RK, Novatouch and Plum.
Post by: digi on Sat, 08 April 2017, 20:15:32
If the Plum 35g feels anything like my Noppoo 35g then I can say without hesitation that it does not feel anything at all like a genuine Topre board. And the build quality is nothing like the build quality of a RealForce (or even a NovaTouch). Topre's dominance in the high-end electrocapacitive keyboard market is quite safe, I think.
I have tried all of them and honestly don't find them any different.
I've also got a friend who sold his Topre for a Royal Kludge preferring the changeable keycaps and the backlighting.
The folks who like Topre, are like wine lovers to me. Some people can appreciate wine a lot, and tell the difference between Chateau le'Expensive and Chateau de la Cheapo even if they are merely on opposite banks of the Garonne.
Some people can't tell the difference between wine and grape juice. I suspect quite a lot of people can't tell the difference between Topre, Noppoo, RK, Novatouch and Plum.
I like Boons Farm..
Post by: zslane on Sat, 08 April 2017, 20:30:45
I have tried all of them and honestly don't find them any different.
I assure you that you would feel a difference between the switches in my boards. If not, then you can't tell the difference between tactile and linear switches period. My Noppoo EC108Pro feel like it has linear switches. My RealForce boards and my NovaTouch feel like they have tactile switches. That alone makes them very different, and makes the Chinese knock-off that I own feel nothing at all like the real Topres that I own.
Post by: lzrdwzrd on Sat, 08 April 2017, 20:37:07
To me the Realforce 45 wasn't anything special, however the 55 was really nice but almost a little to heavy for my liking. (and I use cherry blacks for gaming )
The HHKB p2 was f'n amazing to type on and listen to. The layout was also really great and I got used to it fast. Then, I tried to use my laptop and I was all mixed up :(
So I traded the hhkb in for the newer Leo with dye sub caps and I love it. It feels somewhere in between the HHKB and the 87u 55g.
Loving topre for typing, but still using my 6gV2 for gaming. I find the tactile bumps a little distracting in FPS
Post by: kmba on Sat, 08 April 2017, 21:59:16
You do make a very good point with 1, I have been keeping my eyes out on here & /r/mechmarket hoping to find the magic combo of price & timing on a decent 2nd hand Topre board. The weighting is the biggest issue I have but I think the 55g variant would be enough for me. I definitely prefer heavier switches (I'm typing this reply on 80g blacks ;D) but can be just fine with lighter ones too. I've thought about getting a Type Heaven to test drive Topre since they are more affordable boards but have have been told they lack the true Topre feel you get from a RF or HHKB. What do you Topre guys think about the Type Heavens? I do realize it's not gonna be as stout as a RF but does it really feel that different as to be not worth buying. I have noticed that the Type Heavens are very rarely mentioned when Topre is brought up. :-\
You can't really compare the weight of topre switches to mx switches because feeling is more important than numbers. Typing on an FC660C right now which has 45g domes (however, Leopold's domes are heavier than other 45g, more like 50g). I have stock gateron blacks and stock gateron greens right here too, both of which have a peak force much higher than 50g, yet both of them feel lighter (the blacks significantly so) due to the force curve.
Post by: dante on Sat, 08 April 2017, 23:35:35
I have tried all of them and honestly don't find them any different.
I assure you that you would feel a difference between the switches in my boards. If not, then you can't tell the difference between tactile and linear switches period. My Noppoo EC108Pro feel like it has linear switches. My RealForce boards and my NovaTouch feel like they have tactile switches. That alone makes them very different, and makes the Chinese knock-off that I own feel nothing at all like the real Topres that I own.
My sub $20 Dell rubberdome is more tactile than your beloved Realforce; It also doesn't need 4mm of travel to get the job done.
What is with the repeated "Chinese knock-off"? It makes you sound like a Topre employee.
Post by: ArchDill on Sat, 08 April 2017, 23:54:34
Post by: zslane on Sun, 09 April 2017, 00:53:57
My sub $20 Dell rubberdome is more tactile than your beloved Realforce; It also doesn't need 4mm of travel to get the job done.
That's terrific. But to be honest, being "more tactile" than a Topre, or having a shorter activation point isn't really high on my list of must-have qualities in a keyboard. But if they were then I too might be using a sub $20 Dell. :thumb:
Quote
What is with the repeated "Chinese knock-off"?
I put boards like the Noppoo EC108Pro (and its Royal Kludge-branded equivalent) in that category. My understanding is that they are from China. When I dissected mined, what I saw was a clear attempt to copy Topre design but without Topre build quality. This is a board that markets itself as equivalent to Topre but which neither feels nor sounds like one. One need not be a Topre employee (or even a Topre fan) to observe this as I have; one merely needs working eyes, ears, and fingers.
Post by: dantan on Sun, 09 April 2017, 04:08:48
I have tried all of them and honestly don't find them any different.
I assure you that you would feel a difference between the switches in my boards. If not, then you can't tell the difference between tactile and linear switches period. My Noppoo EC108Pro feel like it has linear switches. My RealForce boards and my NovaTouch feel like they have tactile switches. That alone makes them very different, and makes the Chinese knock-off that I own feel nothing at all like the real Topres that I own.
My sub $20 Dell rubberdome is more tactile than your beloved Realforce; It also doesn't need 4mm of travel to get the job done.
What is with the repeated "Chinese knock-off"? It makes you sound like a Topre employee.
My sub $20 Dell rubberdome is more tactile than your beloved Realforce; It also doesn't need 4mm of travel to get the job done.
That's terrific. But to be honest, being "more tactile" than a Topre, or having a shorter activation point isn't really high on my list of must-have qualities in a keyboard. But if they were then I too might be using a sub $20 Dell. :thumb:QuoteWhat is with the repeated "Chinese knock-off"?
I put boards like the Noppoo EC108Pro (and its Royal Kludge-branded equivalent) in that category. My understanding is that they are from China. When I dissected mined, what I saw was a clear attempt to copy Topre design but without Topre build quality. This is a board that markets itself as equivalent to Topre but which neither feels nor sounds like one. One need not be a Topre employee (or even a Topre fan) to observe this as I have; one merely needs working eyes, ears, and fingers.
Not everyone's brain and body works the same way. I can hear a CRT TV, I can hear a mosquito, and I have perfect pitch. In college I could sense the vibrations from people playing music 10 or more rooms away. But not everyone has similar hearing. If I can tell a very low G from a very high E flat and you can't, does that mean you have no ears?
Tactile to me is like Buckling Spring and Cherry Blues and Cherry Clears. Big Bump or Big Feedback in response to switch activation. Your standard light switches are tactile.
By that Big Bump standard, no Topre is tactile.
All Topres and the 'knock offs' fall kind of in the range of Big Bump Tactile vs Fully Smooth Linear.
35g 'knock off' is practically linear. 55g 'real thing' is nowhere as tactile as a random Model M.
Post by: dantan on Sun, 09 April 2017, 04:10:54
But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use. I don't know if it's the lack of sweet, sweet GMK keycaps or my beloved 62g thoroughly lubed ergoclears... but both 87u's are causing me issues. I think I attribute it to the PBT & plate-mounted switches, so I don't want to write Topre off just yet!
What do you suggest I do? Do I give in to the dreaded 60% HHKB and give that a go for a while? I am a firm believer in modification, and that may be why my KUL ES-87 has stood the test of time as boards pass in and out of my collection.
I am concerned mostly with the layout of the HHKB and the steep-ish angle of the case. I use F-keys constantly, as well as ctrl + shift + arrows and ctrl + end, ctrl +pagedown, etc. Does anyone else here use this functionality constantly on their HHKB? I dread not loving and being less efficient with the topre life.
Thoughts?
I would suggest you try out other switch types. Topre lovers will tell you they love Topre, but as you can see, there's a lot of people who don't appreciate Topre and they are the large majority and I quite doubt if we are all idiots.
Post by: Polymer on Sun, 09 April 2017, 09:15:59
I would suggest you try out other switch types. Topre lovers will tell you they love Topre, but as you can see, there's a lot of people who don't appreciate Topre and they are the large majority and I quite doubt if we are all idiots.
They are in the majority? In what context?
Out of all keyboard users globally? Depends on what you're referring to by appreciate but just like/dislike..no..
Out of all keyboard users here? Maybe..
Out of all keyboard users that have actually used Topre more than a few hours? Probably not...
Not to mention liking/disliking Topre has absolutely NOTHING with being or not being an idiot...
Post by: zslane on Sun, 09 April 2017, 10:40:20
Post by: Polymer on Sun, 09 April 2017, 15:40:22
People get overzealous about stuff because it is online and they can...
But one thing I think is funny is the number of people who talk about something with very little experience (or none) in the matter. Most of the Topre haters haven't even tried it or have with very little experience....
Post by: dante on Mon, 10 April 2017, 12:20:17
MassDrop is currently running a drop for a 91 JIS layout 30g silent uniform board. I'll run it past the decision maker if I can't snag it or not.
Post by: zslane on Mon, 10 April 2017, 15:55:47
I still think the Plum 87 35g is a good board but I'm going to put it to the test.
I kind of feel that whether or not a board is a "good board" is largely going to be governed by personal preferences and expectations. I don't like my Noppoo 35g board and don't consider it a terribly good one just on the basis of build quality alone. But my biggest beef is with the claim that it has Topre-like tactility, when in my experience it has MX silent red-like tactility, which is to say none at all. I mean, even if I liked the idea of a linear rubber dome switch, it wasn't what I expected or wanted from the Noppoo, hence the disappointment.
I recently took a chance on a Plum 75 45g board (am still waiting for it to arrive from across the Pacific ocean) in the hopes that it will be reasonably similar to my RealForce RGB or my NovaTouch, both of which are 45g. My concern is that I'll have to replace the dome sheet with the 55g variant in order to get something closer to a real Topre switch's 45g feel.
Post by: bmilcs on Tue, 11 April 2017, 05:44:53
Post by: Severe on Fri, 14 April 2017, 15:03:24
Post by: dante on Fri, 14 April 2017, 19:35:56
I still think the Plum 87 35g is a good board but I'm going to put it to the test.
I kind of feel that whether or not a board is a "good board" is largely going to be governed by personal preferences and expectations. I don't like my Noppoo 35g board and don't consider it a terribly good one just on the basis of build quality alone. But my biggest beef is with the claim that it has Topre-like tactility, when in my experience it has MX silent red-like tactility, which is to say none at all. I mean, even if I liked the idea of a linear rubber dome switch, it wasn't what I expected or wanted from the Noppoo, hence the disappointment.
I recently took a chance on a Plum 75 45g board (am still waiting for it to arrive from across the Pacific ocean) in the hopes that it will be reasonably similar to my RealForce RGB or my NovaTouch, both of which are 45g. My concern is that I'll have to replace the dome sheet with the 55g variant in order to get something closer to a real Topre switch's 45g feel.
Hopefully some day you'll have the opportunity to try the Hansung Gtune 62g. I would be very interested to know what you think of it.
Post by: kenmai9 on Fri, 14 April 2017, 19:47:59
Post by: zslane on Fri, 14 April 2017, 20:58:22
Hopefully some day you'll have the opportunity to try the Hansung Gtune 62g. I would be very interested to know what you think of it.
Is there a 60% version of it?
Post by: dante on Fri, 14 April 2017, 20:59:04
Hopefully some day you'll have the opportunity to try the Hansung Gtune 62g. I would be very interested to know what you think of it.
Is there a 60% version of it?
Nope. Plum isn't really pushing their 60% board much. Only 35g and 45g for that one.
People in China need to start adding more US beef to their diet. What's with all these lightweight switch options!?
Post by: Severe on Fri, 14 April 2017, 21:05:48
I'm convinced people who claim Topre feels drastically different to standard rubber domes either have broken fingers or are 100% about the hype.
Wrong + Wrong = Wrong
I bought my HHKB boards because of the layout. And told myself I would deal with the topre switches having never tried them. When I got my first HHKB I realized that it was like having the supple butt cheek of a Brazilian women's volleyball player under each keycap. Now I only use topre after having. Oarxs with MX blues reds and blacks.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 15 April 2017, 00:54:57
I'm convinced people who claim Topre feels drastically different to standard rubber domes either have broken fingers or are 100% about the hype.
Wrong + Wrong = Wrong
I bought my HHKB boards because of the layout. And told myself I would deal with the topre switches having never tried them. When I got my first HHKB I realized that it was like having the supple butt cheek of a Brazilian women's volleyball player under each keycap. Now I only use topre after having. Oarxs with MX blues reds and blacks.
This is the problem right here.. Topre owners REFUSE to accept the fact that they've paid $200 for a rather ordinary keyboard..
Not a bad keyboard , just ordinary..
The dissonance between what they've paid and topre's mediocrity is what persistently clash at the forum..
It's all in your head man..
Post by: zslane on Sat, 15 April 2017, 01:02:09
That's what we do here. We tweak and hack the ordinary to make it extraordinary.
(How is this dude so clueless?)
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 15 April 2017, 01:39:28
Naw, man, I spent $250 for an ordinary board and then spent another $200 making it AWESOME!
That's what we do here. We tweak and hack the ordinary to make it extraordinary.
(How is this dude so clueless?)
No, what you've done is called -Loss chasing-
You lost money, because the product you've purchased does not reflect the price you paid.
So instead of hands off, you couldn't walk away, and decided to put yet more money into the hole..
Post by: drewafx on Sat, 15 April 2017, 04:03:05
Post by: Polymer on Sat, 15 April 2017, 06:59:00
This is the problem right here.. Topre owners REFUSE to accept the fact that they've paid $200 for a rather ordinary keyboard..
Not a bad keyboard , just ordinary..
The dissonance between what they've paid and topre's mediocrity is what persistently clash at the forum..
It's all in your head man..
You keep spouting that..already been proven wrong..you won't respond to this because I'm right.
Topre boards end up being maybe marginally more expensive than other boards and in a lot of cases, LESS expensive. Not to mention you can resell at close to cost (which you can't really say for retail MX boards) so your whole dissonance argument really doesn't hold any water.
What I generally seem to find is beginners tend to think $200 is really expensive for a keyboard and see it is made with rubber domes so they try to dismiss it and convince them it can't be that good even though plenty of other people think it is. They go buy their $100 MX keyboard...only to realize it isn't really what they want...they change switches, buy keycaps, whatever. They realize that same MX keyboard with quality keycaps (like what comes with a Topre board) is $200 or more. Or they buy MX keyboards that even without keycaps cost them $200. Now they're stuck having to justify their buy or they come to realize, $200 isn't that much for Topre, maybe I'll give it a try. Most people that seem to give it a fair try tend to keep it...some people that have only tried it for a few hours (like yourself) tend to not really get it because they haven't used it enough. Not surprising that certain individuals fall into that category.
Post by: zslane on Sat, 15 April 2017, 11:16:00
No, what you've done is called -Loss chasing-
You lost money, because the product you've purchased does not reflect the price you paid.
So instead of hands off, you couldn't walk away, and decided to put yet more money into the hole..
Not if you are using the product as the basis for a custom build project. It's like buying a stock Mazda Miata and then turning it into a race car. The final result will cost far more than the "product you've purchased," but since Mazda doesn't make race cars, that's is how you do it. That's not "loss chasing," that's customizing.
Topre doesn't make a Space Cadet keyboard like I want, but they do make a keyboard capable of being the underlying basis for it (in fact, they are the only company that does). The rest is up to me.
(Why am I feeding the troll? I should really know better...)
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 15 April 2017, 12:39:41
No, what you've done is called -Loss chasing-
You lost money, because the product you've purchased does not reflect the price you paid.
So instead of hands off, you couldn't walk away, and decided to put yet more money into the hole..
Not if you are using the product as the basis for a custom build project. It's like buying a stock Mazda Miata and then turning it into a race car. The final result will cost far more than the "product you've purchased," but since Mazda doesn't make race cars, that's is how you do it. That's not "loss chasing," that's customizing.
Topre doesn't make a Space Cadet keyboard like I want, but they do make a keyboard capable of being the underlying basis for it (in fact, they are the only company that does). The rest is up to me.
(Why am I feeding the troll? I should really know better...)
No, Topre is a ford cobalt.. they're trying to be fancy, but it's so obviously an ordinary car..
Post by: Severe on Sat, 15 April 2017, 23:37:46
As an example: A good friend of mine works at an Aston Martin dealership. The average Aston Martin has 5000 miles per year of usage. Most users baby it because it's expensive regardless of the cost of the car in relation to their income. But he has a client who puts on average 22,000 miles on his Aston per year. While most Aston owners scoff at this, he spent his money and he enjoys it the way he wants to.
point of the story is: we have all spent hundreds of dollars on something that we could have spent 15 on and got the exact same result, text input on a screen. What we choose to overspend on is all personal preference. For instance I would rather type on a cheeto stained 2008 dell keyboard than Cherry MX Blues. But I also just ordered another HHKB just for the blank keycaps because they were out of the black blank keycaps sets online, so take that for whatever it's worth
Post by: dante on Sun, 16 April 2017, 08:31:37
But I also just ordered another HHKB just for the blank keycaps because they were out of the black blank keycaps sets online
DAMN SON.
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 18 April 2017, 21:05:08
Here is what a lot of people miss when we get into E-Peen measuring contests online over our preferred this or that. All that matters is that the end user is happy.
100% TRUE.
Websites such as Geekhack, DT, OCN and Reddit are all for losers wanting to show their E-peens everywhere, so as to impress no-bodies about what they have in their possession. First rule in the internet world, ignore what everyone says, all except DETAILS relating to your chosen keyboard interest.
There is NO one alive who knows what is the absolute BEST keyboard to use let alone to own because when I was young all the old folks were plain WRONG about everything until of course I reached their age, but that's another boring story no one shall be forced to endure here.
Just find all the specifics relating to what you want in a keyboard, then pursue it online to get even more informed about it's switches and construction. Hopefully you will be happy in your first keyboard purchase or become like us SAD bastards, always spending money on more keyboards to find out if it's the ONE.
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 18 April 2017, 21:35:00
Here is what a lot of people miss when we get into E-Peen measuring contests online over our preferred this or that. All that matters is that the end user is happy.
100% TRUE.
Websites such as Geekhack, DT, OCN and Reddit are all for losers wanting to show their E-peens everywhere, so as to impress no-bodies about what they have in their possession. First rule in the internet world, ignore what everyone says, all except DETAILS relating to your chosen keyboard interest.
There is NO one alive who knows what is the absolute BEST keyboard to use let alone to own because when I was young all the old folks were plain WRONG about everything until of course I reached their age, but that's another boring story no one shall be forced to endure here.
Just find all the specifics relating to what you want in a keyboard, then pursue it online to get even more informed about it's switches and construction. Hopefully you will be happy in your first keyboard purchase or become like us SAD bastards, always spending money on more keyboards to find out if it's the ONE.
Once you get to my age, you will realize.. you're wrong, your keyboard sux, and that your wrist hurts from using such inferior keyboards for so long.
Post by: Prince Valiant on Thu, 20 April 2017, 09:27:55
Once you get to my age, you will realize.. you're wrong, your keyboard sux, and that your wrist hurts from using such inferior keyboards for so long.That's when you realized there was only one solution :D:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c9/Tent_at_High_Shelf_Camp_cropped.jpg)
Just when I think this thread is out of steam there's a spurt of activity.
Post by: dante on Fri, 21 April 2017, 09:07:44
Say what you will about the "clones" they aren't sitting still.
Post by: DRAZAH on Fri, 21 April 2017, 11:36:39
To call Topre ordinary would involve a principle, but regardless if you see ****ty membrane keyboards as the "standard" or even MX, Topre is still, objectively, not ordinary.
Mimicked by few, and poorly executed at that. Ordinary, within mechanical keyboards, would be to have a design that is commonly reproduced by multiple outlets. (sounds a lot like a certain switch)
I would also not apply the Sunk Cost fallacy to a hobby (loss chasing? We aren't gambling.), especially mechanical keyboards, simply because of the different permutations that can be achieved, and that purchases are not made FOR value.
My HHKB is by far the best keyboard I have ever had. It has all the specifics that I wanted from a keyboard that I could not find in anything else. Cost was never an issue to me as I would be willing to spend double for my perfect keyboard. Bringing "cost" in as a factor is subjective to that person, just because you don't see value doesn't mean it can't exist.
Oh and Ford doesn't make the Cobalt, Chevy does, and if you think a Cobalt is a fancy car then you must be the epitome of basic.
Post by: dante on Fri, 21 April 2017, 11:56:30
These last few years have been really exciting. It is quite possible that someone like jchan may figure out the domes secret sauce and in a few years we could all be typing on open source electro-caps with home made custom domes.
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 21 April 2017, 17:53:40
I like reading certain people's subjective view of the matter but then attempt to portray them as objective truths. This isn't a forum issue, this is a human issue. Low capability to critically think and understanding without compartmentalizing.
My HHKB is by far the best keyboard I have ever had. It has all the specifics that I wanted from a keyboard that I could not find in anything else. Cost was never an issue to me as I would be willing to spend double for my perfect keyboard. Bringing "cost" in as a factor is subjective to that person, just because you don't see value doesn't mean it can't exist.
And what evidence have you that your topre-infatuation is objective..
All you've got there is ---Yippie Topre, I like it, it the best ----
Topre is absolutely ordinary, propped up only by weeb hype..
The rebound mechanism is not durable, especially inconsistent in the long term.. Not easily replaceable.. and the whole thing -Costs MORE-
Why... ?
Mx-Style switches..
Smooths out and gets better with age
Spring resistance highly consistent.
Readily available replacement parts
Even costs less..
Post by: iLLucionist on Fri, 21 April 2017, 19:06:59
I like reading certain people's subjective view of the matter but then attempt to portray them as objective truths. This isn't a forum issue, this is a human issue. Low capability to critically think and understanding without compartmentalizing.
My HHKB is by far the best keyboard I have ever had. It has all the specifics that I wanted from a keyboard that I could not find in anything else. Cost was never an issue to me as I would be willing to spend double for my perfect keyboard. Bringing "cost" in as a factor is subjective to that person, just because you don't see value doesn't mean it can't exist.
And what evidence have you that your topre-infatuation is objective..
All you've got there is ---Yippie Topre, I like it, it the best ----
Topre is absolutely ordinary, propped up only by weeb hype..
The rebound mechanism is not durable, especially inconsistent in the long term.. Not easily replaceable.. and the whole thing -Costs MORE-
Why... ?
Mx-Style switches..
Smooths out and gets better with age
Spring resistance highly consistent.
Readily available replacement parts
Even costs less..
Pretty much this. You know Topre is love. I wouldn't trade Topre for any other board in terms of typing experience. But for critical work (like osu, gaming, counter strike, (semi)-competitive gaming) Topre just doesn't cut it.
For instance, HHKB's (and my 87U) don't have the switches or caps aligned perfectly. So for some two keys there is a larger gap than between two other keys.
Actuation force pressure also varies, quite a lot. Some keys are noticeably easier to press down, some are more difficult.
And then the rebound for me personally isn't consistent at all.
But you know, for non-critical work (everything non-gaming), I love Topre switches because of the feel.
Post by: DRAZAH on Fri, 21 April 2017, 22:20:27
I like reading certain people's subjective view of the matter but then attempt to portray them as objective truths. This isn't a forum issue, this is a human issue. Low capability to critically think and understanding without compartmentalizing.
My HHKB is by far the best keyboard I have ever had. It has all the specifics that I wanted from a keyboard that I could not find in anything else. Cost was never an issue to me as I would be willing to spend double for my perfect keyboard. Bringing "cost" in as a factor is subjective to that person, just because you don't see value doesn't mean it can't exist.
And what evidence have you that your topre-infatuation is objective..
All you've got there is ---Yippie Topre, I like it, it the best ----
Topre is absolutely ordinary, propped up only by weeb hype..
The rebound mechanism is not durable, especially inconsistent in the long term.. Not easily replaceable.. and the whole thing -Costs MORE-
Why... ?
Mx-Style switches..
Smooths out and gets better with age
Spring resistance highly consistent.
Readily available replacement parts
Even costs less..
The evidence is easy, you actually strengthen my argument while not even realizing. :thumb:
The only comment I made specifically for Topre was that they are not ordinary, and I made sure to keep it objective. I would assume you know the definition but that is really hard to judge right now, but Webster can help you with that if needed.
MX switches are ordinary. Replicated by many, and a lot are even better than the OG Cherry. Widely available and without a doubt the most common mech switch. Many permutations because they are so commonly manufactured.
Topre may be simple in design(overall) but PCB design is heavily different and far more intricate, but not to be confused with ordinary. Availability isn't that of MX keyboards and design, feel, and sound are all completely different than MX. So with MX being the most ordinary, this would make Topre anything but ordinary by literal definition. This answers your why.
Everything you said about MX switches and Topre is subjective thoughts that you are attempting to pass as objective truth, once again. Kudos for the attempt to compare MX to Topre though.
Your pointing out what you think are negatives of Topre and comparing them to what you think are positives of MX, this makes absolutely no sense and really shows how weak your argument is... Long-term issues should never be generalized in blanket statements as application and use of keyboard varies from user to user. Not easily replaceable and the objective cost are more reasons it is not ordinary. Cost and Value are different and have everything to do with the topic. From your comments, you think because it cost more it should be "better". This is surface level thinking.. the majority of us are here for the hobby which separates cost from value even more. You see Topre as High Cost, Low Value but again this is subjective, just a mere thought shared by some, the same as some see Topre on the opposite spectrum.
If you don't like something, then good for you and your entitled to your opinion, but lets keep them just that. Opinions.
Post by: drewafx on Fri, 21 April 2017, 22:26:32
Post by: Joey Quinn on Fri, 21 April 2017, 22:34:04
I honestly think Topre reduces mistyping (more suited for critical work)
It's the way you synchronize your brain with keyboard feedback
That helps you with typos
The gaming (arcade) buttons are meant to be mashed, double tapped quickly without harmony
You control your action without keyboard telling you anything back
With topre my senses are heightened by its S curve force / distance
I'm not just typing away. Keyboard tells me you're about to hit this key and right as it sinks in, it tells me you've just registered it.
It crosses the boundary of yin and yang to bottom and comes back up
It's something subtle only touch typist can recognize. Subcontiously your nerve endings are extended to each key, an extension of body all the way from brain.
I wish there was a scientific study that could explain this phenomenon...engineering and neurology perhaps biomechanics
Beautifully said but I don't think topre has anything to do with the number of typing errors you make. I have 98%ish accuracy on my 55g HHKB and 78g gat clear GON but when I switched to my 45g HHKB Pro 1 my accuracy dropped to 90%ish on the first day due to the lighter weight. My accuracy on the Pro 1 has increased since then but it took some time to adjust to the lighter weight.
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 21 April 2017, 22:40:51
Wrong opinions.
Topre is of poor long term viability because of its use of soft rubber.
It is bad for the same reason as standard sheet-style Rubber dome boards.
Overtime, plasticizers leak/dry out, and the domes harden.
This is unavoidable.. had there been replacement domes available, this might not be such a knock, but there is not..
Numerous reports of domes stiffening over time.. and stiffening at Very inconsistent rates due to different wearlevel of different keys.
And because this is such a soft material to be injection molding, The Density and thickness variation in the process is far greater than that of ABS injection or of other hard plastics.
When you inject soft material rubber even 0.05mm thickness differentiation will lead to significantly different force curve.. This whole resistence design is flawed.. they should not be using rubber cups from the very start.
Topre is NOT simple in design, IN FACT it is over-complicated.. to achieve something very simple on off SPST switching..
How topre feels, how much you like it is subjectivity.
I've never refuted your personal taste, only that your love of topre has no objectivity whatsoever.
You have no argument, You merely continue to weeb-out..
hahahha
Thoughts shared by others, Yes because all the 100s of weebs jumping off bridges, you are correct for taking the plunge..
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 21 April 2017, 22:46:05
Post by: Joey Quinn on Fri, 21 April 2017, 22:52:46
Topre is Not a bad keyboard, but it is not a $200 value by any stretch..
Did that really take 2 posts? :p
People were paying $5 a switch for SKCM Blues and have paid more for Nixies, really once the hype hits a certain point nothing is as valuable as people would lead you to believe.
I'm sure people could argue that an ergodox doesn't have a $200 value.
Post by: DRAZAH on Fri, 21 April 2017, 23:27:58
Wrong opinions.
Topre is of poor long term viability because of its use of soft rubber.
It is bad for the same reason as standard sheet-style Rubber dome boards.
Overtime, plasticizers leak/dry out, and the domes harden.
This is unavoidable.. had there been replacement domes available, this might not be such a knock, but there is not..
Numerous reports of domes stiffening over time.. and stiffening at Very inconsistent rates due to different wearlevel of different keys.
And because this is such a soft material to be injection molding, The Density and thickness variation in the process is far greater than that of ABS injection or of other hard plastics.
When you inject soft material rubber even 0.05mm thickness differentiation will lead to significantly different force curve.. This whole resistence design is flawed.. they should not be using rubber cups from the very start.
Topre is NOT simple in design, IN FACT it is over-complicated.. to achieve something very simple on off SPST switching..
How topre feels, how much you like it is subjectivity.
I've never refuted your personal taste, only that your love of topre has no objectivity whatsoever.
You have no argument, You merely continue to weeb-out..
hahahha
Thoughts shared by others, Yes because all the 100s of weebs jumping off bridges, you are correct for taking the plunge..
Why am I being quoted for "wrong opinions" which is something I never said. You really are something else.
You clearly lack the comprehension to understand this conversation for what it is. I specifically stated the 1 objective point I talked about Topre and you are commenting on something completely different. You are taking 1 perceived negative of Topre, increasing your font, and using it as a blanket statement for why Topre is bad. I could easily talk about how MX is inferior to Topre but you don't see me doing that, because that point is moot. You obviously can't understand this judging from your post history and how you comment on everything else. People are allowed to disagree with you, and just because they do you don't need to have a temper tantrum, I expect more from someone who holds so much pride but portrays themselves as a dunce. You call Topre ordinary, yet you continue to talk about how it's so different. You literally have no argument as you contradict yourself constantly while also ranting on about a specific point that no one brought up but yourself.
I advise you to google the term "Compartmentalization". As someone who works in the field of this, it's pretty easy to see, again, judging by your post history and just how you communicate. This is a human flaw, as I said in my first post and not a forum issue. Just because you lack the comprehension to understand things correctly doesn't mean everyone does. We are talking about keyboards, which is virtually 100% personal preference. You taking your subjective thoughts and attempting to pass them off as objective truth is sad and is the reason why users here perceive you as an unintelligent troll. Good luck kid, It was a huge misjudgment on my part to even attempt to help you understand the point of this topic.
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 21 April 2017, 23:38:15
Topre is Not a bad keyboard, but it is not a $200 value by any stretch..
Did that really take 2 posts? :p
People were paying $5 a switch for SKCM Blues and have paid more for Nixies, really once the hype hits a certain point nothing is as valuable as people would lead you to believe.
I'm sure people could argue that an ergodox doesn't have a $200 value.
Lies, Ergodox = Infinity value..
Because I SAID SO....
Post by: Joey Quinn on Fri, 21 April 2017, 23:41:20
I'd believe you if I was sure you aren't a chat bot but I'm still not convinced you're a real person.Topre is Not a bad keyboard, but it is not a $200 value by any stretch..
Did that really take 2 posts?
People were paying $5 a switch for SKCM Blues and have paid more for Nixies, really once the hype hits a certain point nothing is as valuable as people would lead you to believe.
I'm sure people could argue that an ergodox doesn't have a $200 value.
Lies, Ergodox = Infinity value..
Because I SAID SO....
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 21 April 2017, 23:44:32
Kids stuff.. Hai guys, I know one big word.. look how smart I am..
This is the trouble with non-engineers.. They are incapable of breaking down the objects in their life into components and the decisions behind that choice.
Then they get all emotional and talk about how their friends agree with them...
sigh.......
Topre is a functional keyboard.. But it is built around a rotten log.. Soft rubber cups..
In the grand scheme this might not be a huge issue, since the effects of non-uniform resistance on highly proficient typers isn't going to be too-damning..
But to say that its a good product , we really have to go back to the engineering.. And that is where Topre does not measure up to MX.
MX style switches is the most elegant and durable solution available in the current keyboard space..
The Logitech switches are mechanically even better, but obviously those arn't available outside of logitech..
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 21 April 2017, 23:45:42
I'd believe you if I was sure you aren't a chat bot but I'm still not convinced you're a real person.Topre is Not a bad keyboard, but it is not a $200 value by any stretch..
Did that really take 2 posts?
People were paying $5 a switch for SKCM Blues and have paid more for Nixies, really once the hype hits a certain point nothing is as valuable as people would lead you to believe.
I'm sure people could argue that an ergodox doesn't have a $200 value.
Lies, Ergodox = Infinity value..
Because I SAID SO....
What if I put a big words in quotes.. "Compartmentalize" Am I a real boy now..
hahahahahahahhaa
Post by: Joey Quinn on Fri, 21 April 2017, 23:47:25
I'm not saying you aren't a crucial part of GHI'd believe you if I was sure you aren't a chat bot but I'm still not convinced you're a real person.Topre is Not a bad keyboard, but it is not a $200 value by any stretch..
Did that really take 2 posts?
People were paying $5 a switch for SKCM Blues and have paid more for Nixies, really once the hype hits a certain point nothing is as valuable as people would lead you to believe.
I'm sure people could argue that an ergodox doesn't have a $200 value.
Lies, Ergodox = Infinity value..
Because I SAID SO....
What if I put a big words in quotes.. "Compartmentalize" Am I a real boy now..
hahahahahahahhaa
But I am saying you may not be a real boy
*JQ needs to meet tp in person
Post by: DRAZAH on Sat, 22 April 2017, 00:21:10
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 22 April 2017, 00:46:19
I'm not saying you aren't a crucial part of GH
But I am saying you may not be a real boy
*JQ needs to meet tp in person
I don't want to be murdered..
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 22 April 2017, 05:10:42
Anyway, I think guys it's very easy to summarize Topre, regardless of whom asked or did not asked whom.
Topre feel: personal, but many find it great, myself included. Topre is love.
Topre technical: will not stand the test of time due to rubberdome. Simple as that. Rubber wears out, it hardens. Much people report it. Solution: dome swap or buy another board or just simply don't care.
Topre technical 2: boards are expensive, simply true. Except for custom boards / solder kits / having it soldered for you, right-out-of-box keyboards considered, Topre is amongst the most expensive. People sometimes confuse that with Topre must be the best ever, coz expensive right? But unfortunately their production standards are not always top knotch. Variation in placing of the key caps / switch, noticeable and reported here. Variation in actuation force.
And then you may not like the distinctive Topre feel, how the dome collapses upon activation. You may or may no like the noise. But technical, Topre is not the best of the best of the best. It is, in my opinion if you can ignore the rubber dome hardening out, right up there.
Post by: _rubik on Sat, 22 April 2017, 10:47:45
IMHO Topre keyboards are the mature, refined, upper-class brother of the rubber dome. What I mean by that is: the rubber domes in a topre will never have the perfectly uniform force curve as a true mech. THAT BEING SAID: I have a 55g RF87u and love it. It feels (dare I say) more elegant than some mechs because of the smooth and cushioned feel. Granted, that's not for everyone.
The folks I see that fall in love with topre boards are also the same people who love a good dampened white alps. Just sayin'..
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 22 April 2017, 11:02:12
I've watched this thread grow and grow, so I might as well give my two cents.
IMHO Topre keyboards are the mature, refined, upper-class brother of the rubber dome. What I mean by that is: the rubber domes in a topre will never have the perfectly uniform force curve as a true mech. THAT BEING SAID: I have a 55g RF87u and love it. It feels (dare I say) more elegant than some mechs because of the smooth and cushioned feel. Granted, that's not for everyone.
The folks I see that fall in love with topre boards are also the same people who love a good dampened white alps. Just sayin'..
[attachimg=1]
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 22 April 2017, 11:30:52
I've watched this thread grow and grow, so I might as well give my two cents.
IMHO Topre keyboards are the mature, refined, upper-class brother of the rubber dome. What I mean by that is: the rubber domes in a topre will never have the perfectly uniform force curve as a true mech. THAT BEING SAID: I have a 55g RF87u and love it. It feels (dare I say) more elegant than some mechs because of the smooth and cushioned feel. Granted, that's not for everyone.
The folks I see that fall in love with topre boards are also the same people who love a good dampened white alps. Just sayin'..
That is fine.. you're entitled to LOVE IT as much as you want.
But that love crosses the line, when you come to geekhack and tell people it's a better keyboard because you love it..
No, a better keyboard is a mechanical matter entirely.
Topre is NOT a mechanically superior keyboard to mx style boards..
If anything it's quite inferior..
So, you can love your ugly dog as much as you want.. But it remains an ugly dog.. and the fact that you love this dog, does not make it any less ugly..
hahahahahahahahahahahhahaa
Post by: _rubik on Sat, 22 April 2017, 11:40:27
I've watched this thread grow and grow, so I might as well give my two cents.
IMHO Topre keyboards are the mature, refined, upper-class brother of the rubber dome. What I mean by that is: the rubber domes in a topre will never have the perfectly uniform force curve as a true mech. THAT BEING SAID: I have a 55g RF87u and love it. It feels (dare I say) more elegant than some mechs because of the smooth and cushioned feel. Granted, that's not for everyone.
The folks I see that fall in love with topre boards are also the same people who love a good dampened white alps. Just sayin'..
That is fine.. you're entitled to LOVE IT as much as you want.
But that love crosses the line, when you come to geekhack and tell people it's a better keyboard because you love it..
No, a better keyboard is a mechanical matter entirely.
Topre is NOT a mechanically superior keyboard to mx style boards..
If anything it's quite inferior..
So, you can love your ugly dog as much as you want.. But it remains an ugly dog.. and the fact that you love this dog, does not make it any less ugly..
hahahahahahahahahahahhahaa
Well I did indeed mention topre's faults. It has an inferior force curve and share many of the flawed mechanics as a rubber dome keyboard. I do love mine, but no where did I say it's a better keyboard nor have I ever claimed it's mechanically superior. It's a better keyboard than a rubber dome maybe, but it still has a number of flaws. That being said, a number of people do enjoy the boards, so I wouldn't write it off completely.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 22 April 2017, 11:50:23
Well I did indeed mention topre's faults. It has an inferior force curve and share many of the flawed mechanics as a rubber dome keyboard. I do love mine, but no where did I say it's a better keyboard nor have I ever claimed it's mechanically superior. It's a better keyboard than a rubber dome maybe, but it still has a number of flaws. That being said, a number of people do enjoy the boards, so I wouldn't write it off completely.
We should write them off completely, because they're hipsters who love their ugly dogs..
It is the Same as hipsters who love record players and collecting records..
It's all about WARMTH and BODY of the sound.. and they're completely divorced from the fact that what they're listening to is a Complete misrepresentation of the SOURCE material, of which the whole purpose of reproduction is to mimic..
Hipsters are allowed to Love records.. they are allowed to SAY they love records, and why THEY LIKE IT..
But there is a difference , and we have to clarify that to any prospective keyboard entrants..
Topre is the most confused over popular segment of keyboarding right now..
The goal here is simply to offer clarity..
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 22 April 2017, 12:15:12
Well I did indeed mention topre's faults. It has an inferior force curve and share many of the flawed mechanics as a rubber dome keyboard. I do love mine, but no where did I say it's a better keyboard nor have I ever claimed it's mechanically superior. It's a better keyboard than a rubber dome maybe, but it still has a number of flaws. That being said, a number of people do enjoy the boards, so I wouldn't write it off completely.
We should write them off completely, because they're hipsters who love their ugly dogs..
It is the Same as hipsters who love record players and collecting records..
It's all about WARMTH and BODY of the sound.. and they're completely divorced from the fact that what they're listening to is a Complete misrepresentation of the SOURCE material, of which the whole purpose of reproduction is to mimic..
Hipsters are allowed to Love records.. they are allowed to SAY they love records, and why THEY LIKE IT..
But there is a difference , and we have to clarify that to any prospective keyboard entrants..
Topre is the most confused over popular segment of keyboarding right now..
The goal here is simply to offer clarity..
Noooo I cannot live without the Topre. What are you doing to me tp? WHyyy!
Although I've just connect my MX Clears board to play osu... double tapping on my 87U isn't really what I hoped for.
Post by: digi on Sat, 22 April 2017, 12:22:55
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 22 April 2017, 13:12:04
Tp what are the hard facts on Cherry Silvers?? Are they ok??
The shorter the travel distance, the greater the probability that a Simultaneous keypress could be successfully timed.
That is why Fighting game buttons have such short travel..
That is the only real practical difference.
However, To a High lvl player, he's not going to drop combos from that..
he's going to drop combos because he ate too many chili dogs, and forgot to take his blood pressure medicine.. AKA Justin Wonging it.
Post by: digi on Sat, 22 April 2017, 13:12:54
Tp what are the hard facts on Cherry Silvers?? Are they ok??
The shorter the travel distance, the greater the probability that a Simultaneous keypress could be successfully timed.
That is why Fighting game buttons have such short travel..
That is the only real practical difference.
However, To a High lvl player, he's not going to drop combos from that..
he's going to drop combos because he ate too many chili dogs, and forgot to take his blood pressure medicine.. AKA Justin Wonging it.
Knew it!!! TY!
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 22 April 2017, 13:16:58
Tp what are the hard facts on Cherry Silvers?? Are they ok??
The shorter the travel distance, the greater the probability that a Simultaneous keypress could be successfully timed.
That is why Fighting game buttons have such short travel..
That is the only real practical difference.
However, To a High lvl player, he's not going to drop combos from that..
he's going to drop combos because he ate too many chili dogs, and forgot to take his blood pressure medicine.. AKA Justin Wonging it.
TAP TAP TAP. No blood pressure medicine lowers your blood pressure when playing osu.. It's wild.
Post by: drewafx on Sat, 22 April 2017, 22:31:48
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 23 April 2017, 04:27:49
Topre analog keyboard. Available in Japan.
Sure is more technologically advanced than simple on/off mechanical switches of 18th century...
I'm not against analog controls hitting the board, but it almost certainly makes no sense to use cup rubber here..
We are discussing the flaws of rubber cups..
Post by: Severe on Sun, 23 April 2017, 10:29:40
Regular rubber dome= Toyota
Topre= Lexus
Essentially the same thing, but the lexus is significantly upgraded in styling, performance, and luxury look and feel. but yes, at it's heart it's still a toyota that you paid a lot of money for.
But Lexus drivers don't care because they like the car.
Make sense?
Post by: yuktsi on Sun, 23 April 2017, 10:55:00
I think what some of the anti Topre crew forget is that the Topre is still a good switch whether you like to type on it or not. No switch is flawless.Jokrik just modded my Toyota to Lexus, I really like it.
Regular rubber dome= Toyota
Topre= Lexus
Essentially the same thing, but the lexus is significantly upgraded in styling, performance, and luxury look and feel. but yes, at it's heart it's still a toyota that you paid a lot of money for.
But Lexus drivers don't care because they like the car.
Make sense?
End of story :blank:
Post by: dante on Sun, 23 April 2017, 10:56:25
It's all about personal preference in the end.
Post by: daerid on Sun, 23 April 2017, 11:20:57
Use what you like. There's no inherent reason you should like Topre. Many do. Many don't. Love the keyboard that works for you <3
Post by: iLLucionist on Sun, 23 April 2017, 11:39:36
To each their own. I absolutely love my 55g 87U. But it's currently not my daily driver. I don't think I will ever have an "end-game", because changing out keyboards and switch types frequently helps keep any RSI from flaring up.
Use what you like. There's no inherent reason you should like Topre. Many do. Many don't. Love the keyboard that works for you <3
I use multiple and switch between them, rotate them. MX Cherry all the way for gaming, Topre for typing. HHKB at the office currently, 87U 55g at home, alongside my KUL ES-87 with clears.
Post by: _rubik on Sun, 23 April 2017, 12:05:13
Regular rubber dome= Toyota
Topre= Lexus
I think this is the best way to describe it. Its a luxury rubber dome. Some people like a luxury rubber dome. Saying 'liking topre is wrong' is saying 'your opinion is wrong' which is in itself... an opinion. So it's just a reflexive argument. Type on what you like. Done.
Post by: quasistellar on Sun, 23 April 2017, 19:54:07
Topre analog keyboard. Available in Japan.
Sure is more technologically advanced than simple on/off mechanical switches of 18th century...
I'm not against analog controls hitting the board, but it almost certainly makes no sense to use cup rubber here..
We are discussing the flaws of rubber cups..
Yeah I love Topre, but something linear like an MX Black or Red would have been ideal for analog, I would think.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 23 April 2017, 22:11:45
Regular rubber dome= Toyota
Topre= Lexus
I think this is the best way to describe it. Its a luxury rubber dome. Some people like a luxury rubber dome. Saying 'liking topre is wrong' is saying 'your opinion is wrong' which is in itself... an opinion. So it's just a reflexive argument. Type on what you like. Done.
Heck no..
Rubber dome = PT Cruiser
Topre = PT Cruiser with Flame decal..
BOTH = FAIL.
Post by: Severe on Sun, 23 April 2017, 22:52:06
Regular rubber dome= Toyota
Topre= Lexus
I think this is the best way to describe it. Its a luxury rubber dome. Some people like a luxury rubber dome. Saying 'liking topre is wrong' is saying 'your opinion is wrong' which is in itself... an opinion. So it's just a reflexive argument. Type on what you like. Done.
Heck no..
Rubber dome = PT Cruiser
Topre = PT Cruiser with Flame decal..
BOTH = FAIL.
I think i'd rather drive a PT cruise with flame decals and spinner hubcaps than use MX Blues
it's all relative
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 24 April 2017, 02:39:41
Regular rubber dome= Toyota
Topre= Lexus
I think this is the best way to describe it. Its a luxury rubber dome. Some people like a luxury rubber dome. Saying 'liking topre is wrong' is saying 'your opinion is wrong' which is in itself... an opinion. So it's just a reflexive argument. Type on what you like. Done.
Heck no..
Rubber dome = PT Cruiser
Topre = PT Cruiser with Flame decal..
BOTH = FAIL.
I somehow get the slightest impression you might not like Topre..
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 24 April 2017, 05:31:02
Heck no..
Rubber dome = PT Cruiser
Topre = PT Cruiser with Flame decal..
BOTH = FAIL.
I somehow get the slightest impression you might not like Topre..
Welll... fail is a little harsh.. I agree.. but we've had a tramendous influx of mis-information in the form of Topre- Zealotry.
So It's important that we educate prospective keyboard enthusiasts that Topre may be an OK keyboard, but it VERY MUCH has Flaws, overpriced for what you get, and thoroughly devoid of any Magic as experienced solely by the Weeb-Cult..
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 24 April 2017, 08:45:52
Heck no..
Rubber dome = PT Cruiser
Topre = PT Cruiser with Flame decal..
BOTH = FAIL.
I somehow get the slightest impression you might not like Topre..
Welll... fail is a little harsh.. I agree.. but we've had a tramendous influx of mis-information in the form of Topre- Zealotry.
So It's important that we educate prospective keyboard enthusiasts that Topre may be an OK keyboard, but it VERY MUCH has Flaws, overpriced for what you get, and thoroughly devoid of any Magic as experienced solely by the Weeb-Cult..
Yeah, that's true. But it must also not be understated that the FEEL of the Topre is quite different to the feel of MX Cherry. It's not that if the quality is less / more variation / questionable for Topre that all of a sudden AS A SWITCH the feel is also bad.
People tend to confuse bad / worse build quality with worse feel as well.
Just sayin'
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 25 April 2017, 21:32:55
Yeah, that's true. But it must also not be understated that the FEEL of the Topre is quite different to the feel of MX Cherry. It's not that if the quality is less / more variation / questionable for Topre that all of a sudden AS A SWITCH the feel is also bad.
People tend to confuse bad / worse build quality with worse feel as well.
If you have a REAL love of all keyboards that use either Thorpies, Cherry's, Romer-Gs, Matias, ALPs, Buckling Springs, Scissor-switches and a host of decent membrane-based keyboards you will appreciate all of the varieties here due to their feel and finish.
It's like saying you have one love for only blondes and nothing else, but a true connoisseur loves all, irrespective of their colour or form simply because you know what each one is like and how they perform.
Post by: digi on Tue, 25 April 2017, 22:01:02
Yeah, that's true. But it must also not be understated that the FEEL of the Topre is quite different to the feel of MX Cherry. It's not that if the quality is less / more variation / questionable for Topre that all of a sudden AS A SWITCH the feel is also bad.
People tend to confuse bad / worse build quality with worse feel as well.
If you have a REAL love of all keyboards that use either Thorpies, Cherry's, Romer-Gs, Matias, ALPs, Buckling Springs, Scissor-switches and a host of decent membrane-based keyboards you will appreciate all of the varieties here due to their feel and finish.
It's like saying you have one love for only blondes and nothing else, but a true connoisseur loves all, irrespective of their colour or form simply because you know what each one is like and how they perform.
What about blacks?
Post by: iLLucionist on Wed, 26 April 2017, 00:25:17
Yeah, that's true. But it must also not be understated that the FEEL of the Topre is quite different to the feel of MX Cherry. It's not that if the quality is less / more variation / questionable for Topre that all of a sudden AS A SWITCH the feel is also bad.
People tend to confuse bad / worse build quality with worse feel as well.
If you have a REAL love of all keyboards that use either Thorpies, Cherry's, Romer-Gs, Matias, ALPs, Buckling Springs, Scissor-switches and a host of decent membrane-based keyboards you will appreciate all of the varieties here due to their feel and finish.
It's like saying you have one love for only blondes and nothing else, but a true connoisseur loves all, irrespective of their colour or form simply because you know what each one is like and how they perform.
Yes... yes... good thinking. That's exactly how it is!
Post by: Altis on Tue, 20 June 2017, 22:23:22
Topre is certainly rather uneventful. If you're looking for a new and exciting typing feel, it won't give you that fuzz the way some buckling springs or clicky Alps do (which is why I have those too!).
However, of all my keyboards, Topre 45g is the one that I can type on endlessly without fatigue or discomfort, while not making any annoying/overly loud sounds. I absolutely love the way that they sound (unsilenced) and the keycaps tend to be well made with a nice texture.
I especially love the tactility of the Topre switches as it's an elongated hump. It's not dramatic, but because it occurs over such a long portion of the stroke, you end up still feeling tactility when typing very quickly. By contrast, my Blue Alps, MX Blue, buckling springs, Zealios Purple, MX Clear, and especially MX Brown -- ALL feel as near as makes no difference to linear when typing quickly (though not as nice as actually typing on linears, which I love). The slower you type, the more all of those switches can be felt (especially my beloved Blue Alps, which have a longer tactility than MX Blue).
I get that it won't be for everyone. I certainly didn't start off with them because they seemed boring, and in a way they really are...
I really think they "Lexus" comparison is rather fitting since Lexus is rather boring and uneventful... nobody really gets excited for them, but they're very nice and most people could drive one around all day and be happy -- but it won't satisfy that thrill. :cool: They even last forever and hold their value like a Lexus :p
Next up is HiPro and maybe 30-35g Topre as I'm curious what they're like.
Post by: shadowku on Fri, 23 June 2017, 11:29:57
Regular rubber dome= Toyota
Topre= Lexus
But Lexus drivers don't care because they like the car.
I agree with this. I think there's a lot of undeserved criticism for rubber domes because the typical $10 keyboard has them. The problem is that those keyboards feel terrible because they're made to be $10 keyboards, and not because they have rubber domes. There are more premium rubber dome keyboards (that are not Topre) that feel much better than the Dell keyboard you get for free. I actually enjoy typing on some of my Lenovo keyboards which does not feel bad. I hear the HHKB-Lite (which I haven't tried) is pleasant to type on despite being a rubber dome keyboard. These types would probably be your Toyota Avalons and Highlanders, and then the step up would be full Topre which I think is represented by Lexus.
Post by: clasicks on Fri, 23 June 2017, 13:28:39
Post by: shadowku on Fri, 23 June 2017, 15:20:49
Yesterday my coworker called my hhkb a type writer. I told her it was $300 and she said HOW, its so small;) You need to tell her it's not about the size, it's about how it feels. Have her try one of the soft, supple switches.
Post by: clasicks on Fri, 23 June 2017, 18:57:00
Post by: WheresTheSNES on Tue, 26 September 2017, 18:44:55
You can't really compare the weight of topre switches to mx switches because feeling is more important than numbers. Typing on an FC660C right now which has 45g domes (however, Leopold's domes are heavier than other 45g, more like 50g). I have stock gateron blacks and stock gateron greens right here too, both of which have a peak force much higher than 50g, yet both of them feel lighter (the blacks significantly so) due to the force curve.
Just got my FC660C this week. Every single key feels awesome except the down arrow. I'm like so confused. It feels less tactile than the other arrow keys. Do you experience this? If you look at the domes the bottom three arrow keys are a single strip of domes so I have no idea what the problem could be.
Post by: jcoffin1981 on Tue, 26 September 2017, 18:56:11
Just looking at the board now, the OEM keycap profile isn't helping either. I very lightly rest my wrists on my wristpad all day everyday, so that extra height could be throwing me off too.
Is the HHKB Cherry profile?
I have had RSI in my fingers, but mainly my wrists where my fingers would be numb and I would have terrible nerve pain. I would actually recommend that you ditch the wrist rest and find a way to raise your seat a bit or lower the keyboard. This is not easy, but over months I've eliminated 95% of my pain from doing so with strict proper typing technique. Also if the keyboard is closer to your body you have less of a tendency to lean on your wrists, as well as lean forward. Also raising the height of the monitor reduces the tendency to lean forward. I used to like wrist rests, but I think it encourages bad posture and technique.
Post by: typo on Tue, 26 September 2017, 21:34:16
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 26 September 2017, 22:34:36
Man, TP it is like you are my identical twin! We think very alike it seems.
A blessing and a curse... "mostly" a curse.. [attachimg=1]
Post by: typo on Wed, 27 September 2017, 03:19:58
Post by: typo on Sun, 01 October 2017, 05:01:22
Post by: _PixelNinja on Sun, 01 October 2017, 06:47:41
That is, if you enjoy bottoming out. To me they do not seem to activate until then.APC non-withstanding, Topre actuates half way down. Bottoming out is par for the course due to the design, since the collapsing of the rubber dome pulls the key to the bottom of the stroke.
Post by: Polymer on Sun, 01 October 2017, 16:05:39
Everyone knows I am Deck's poster boy. The very truth is no RealFroce or HHKB is built anywhere near as solid as a old Deck. It is what it is but still a great keyboard IMO. All my Topre boards I can actually shift the entire case with just very light pressure applied to them! Embracement of the riches I guess. They stated they built the RGB to higher quality and tolerances. BS. Same old thing. Topre boards are flimsy but they are a joy to type on. That is, if you enjoy bottoming out. To me they do not seem to activate until then. Of course as I have mentioned I am a Gorilla. I am not sure if other people can actuate them with bottoming out. Nonetheless I think the Thock and feel is lovely. In fact the boards actually are pretty solid it is just the outer case that is rather flimsy IMO but this is no secret.
You're confusing quite a number of things....Topre never has to bottom out..but typing with it you pretty much have to...
Just because you can shift the case doesn't mean it isn't made well..
The boards are pretty much bulletproof..you pretty much never about problems with Topre because they're not subject to the same type of problems other switches are stuck with....the closest thing to breaking them will be when the rubber dome fails..but I don't actually know of anyone that has had them fail yet although it being rubber it will at some point wear out..
Post by: _PixelNinja on Sun, 01 October 2017, 16:19:37
And to be fair — bulletproof is not an adjective that comes to mind when I think of the HHKB's case, for instance. If anything, it's actually rather flimsy for what is costs.
Post by: typo on Sun, 01 October 2017, 22:58:05
Post by: yuppie on Mon, 02 October 2017, 00:32:32
Post by: typo on Mon, 02 October 2017, 07:48:12
Post by: Polymer on Mon, 02 October 2017, 14:31:44
Topre being a reliable switch has far less to to do with the chassis, than the design of the electronics.
And to be fair — bulletproof is not an adjective that comes to mind when I think of the HHKB's case, for instance. If anything, it's actually rather flimsy for what is costs.
Again, equating heft, weight with quality. Plenty of big heavy keyboards that aren't nearly as well made nor as reliable.
The reliability has NOTHING to do with the Chassis...same when it comes to MX...
Topres are pretty much bulletproof as a keyboard...they're not going to fail...there just isn't that allows them to fail...which is why we rarely hear of any reliability issues...
Post by: _PixelNinja on Mon, 02 October 2017, 15:02:07
Again, equating heft, weight with quality. Plenty of big heavy keyboards that aren't nearly as well made nor as reliable.
The reliability has NOTHING to do with the Chassis...same when it comes to MX...
Topres are pretty much bulletproof as a keyboard...they're not going to fail...there just isn't that allows them to fail...which is why we rarely hear of any reliability issues...
You are putting words in my mouth — I never mentioned anything such as heft, weight etc. Other keyboards not being as well made is irrelevant. Typo's premise was that Topre keyboards aren't that solid in terms of build quality. To that, in regards to the HHKB, I agree. I am not discussing the reliability of Topre's switches which are arguably the most reliable in the business.
Post by: typo on Mon, 02 October 2017, 22:20:24
I did as I said with the RGB plus put custom GMK's. Now, Me thinks it actually feels better than the HHKB Silent. Nice. Still does not make up for the case shifting and press in the case. That is absurd for an almost $400USD Keyboard IMO. I mean the HHKB Silent. Although now my RGB is up to like $700USD if you count a little Labor too.
Post by: Polymer on Thu, 05 October 2017, 01:48:20
Again, equating heft, weight with quality. Plenty of big heavy keyboards that aren't nearly as well made nor as reliable.
The reliability has NOTHING to do with the Chassis...same when it comes to MX...
Topres are pretty much bulletproof as a keyboard...they're not going to fail...there just isn't that allows them to fail...which is why we rarely hear of any reliability issues...
You are putting words in my mouth — I never mentioned anything such as heft, weight etc. Other keyboards not being as well made is irrelevant. Typo's premise was that Topre keyboards aren't that solid in terms of build quality. To that, in regards to the HHKB, I agree. I am not discussing the reliability of Topre's switches which are arguably the most reliable in the business.
You referred to the weight of the case (Flimsy) as it pertains to build quality...so I'm not putting words in your mouth..
Bulletproof, the description, is in reference the the reliability.....but you did mention the "Flimsy" case....Why is it flimsy? Because it isn't heavy? The build quality isn't good? Really? So how many physical failures are you seeing on HHKBs or Realforces? What makes the build quality not that solid? The only ones I've seen are people being a bit too rough with their HHKB and breaking how the case sticks together..but it isn't meant to be opened...
I've seen two "flaws" with RFs..that is some cases have that little semi invisible line on the bottom right hand corner...and because of the case design w/ the clip, you can twist the keyboard which might mean when you get it, it doesn't sit perfectly flat. The line thing you can't fix but the sitting flat thing you can..You can either slightly twist it the other way (which shifts the case) or just press on the corners and it'll shift itself. Does that mean the build quality isn't there? I've seen some people say this is how they test build quality..but that isn't true at all...
Comparing both RFs and HHKBs to other MX boards, including Alu cased or custom, they're easily the equal or better in actual build quality...they might not be as heavy..but again, heavy doesn't equal build quality...
Post by: Riverman on Thu, 05 October 2017, 13:37:00
Post by: zslane on Thu, 05 October 2017, 14:11:56
I don't see how anyone could call a Realforce case flimsy. I'm typing on one right now, and it's very solid. There's no flex in it, and it feels like a higher quality case than what Filco uses.
That is not quite the case for the Realforce RGB, and since it looks like the Realforce R2 uses the new case design introduced by the RGB, the "flimsy case" complaints will likely grow louder in the future.
Post by: typo on Fri, 06 October 2017, 00:03:36
I would say the 104UB is honestly fine regardless but I would not use the word "bullet proof" to describe it.
Post by: zslane on Fri, 06 October 2017, 11:54:57
Post by: typo on Sat, 07 October 2017, 08:40:32
Post by: sodiumjoe on Sat, 07 October 2017, 13:35:59
Unfortunately all Topre boards except the RGB are useless to me because I can't put any of my SA keycap sets on them (without major reconstructive surgery). That's why I wish someone would design an aluminum case for it and offer it in powder-coated white (like the gorgeous Norbauer NovaTouch case I have).Norbauer has an active interest check for an aluminum case for the rf87 right now.
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Post by: zslane on Sat, 07 October 2017, 16:08:30
Post by: typo on Sun, 08 October 2017, 00:35:33
Post by: ander on Sun, 08 October 2017, 05:35:23
Post by: iLLucionist on Sun, 08 October 2017, 06:02:00
I occasionally switch back to my KUL with clears, and my HHKB white at the office. But every time when I get back on my 87UB 55g I am like "ahhwwwww dyeess".
Post by: typo on Sun, 08 October 2017, 07:23:24
I am upset that Mechanical keyboards is selling the RGB for $199. Topre specifically does not allow that. Up fine, but not below a certain base. In the case of the RGB it is $229USD but is most commonly $269. No one feel bad they are not an authorized dealer and it is worth $269 all day long. Topre actually considers it their new flagship board. Future Topre products will follow these workings. There is a board in Japan that is like the RGB on steroids. Elite keyboards is very pricy due to now selling all their stock on Amazon for much less. I do not endorse buying any product from a non authorized dealer.
Interestingly you will find the RGB sold out almost everywhere. Someone must like it. Mechanical keyboards has stock at $199 because most enthusiasts probably feel the way I do. They can keep them IMO.
Post by: justinmtype on Sun, 08 October 2017, 08:43:58
Post by: typo on Mon, 09 October 2017, 04:09:29
I find Topre 45g on the RGB to be as stiff as MX clears which is good. I doubt most agree. I also have trouble with missed actuation. The RGB solved this. The RGB is honestly very nice. It is certainly a real Topre.
Post by: zslane on Mon, 09 October 2017, 11:44:31
Post by: typo on Mon, 09 October 2017, 13:36:35
As for Cherry solder joints, throw in backlighting and there are often problems. Led's going out etc. That is why they finally introduced the MX RGB. However, now the switch is even more complicated. More parts, more to fail. The Topre RGB is all SMD Led's. So I hope it holds up better than MX based boards with 3mm Led's. I guess time will tell. I will say it is more difficult to disassemble a Topre than most MX boards. All they are is a bunch of soldering. That indeed is why Topre is more reliable. The case is not exactly what you would expect for $269 but it is actually fine. I really like the RGB. It is my daily driver right now. Of course I do not have to tell anyone the GMK caps are great for ABS. I replaced mine only with a colored set of GMK's. ABS can actually be decent. Once the thing is on the desk it is very solid. There is no reason to push the case around and be disappointed. You put it on the desk and it feels very study. They now consider it their flagship board. Future boards will use some of it's features I am told. If I was buying I would go for the RGB regardless now. Not the 104U. Unless you do not want a full board. The backlight bleeds like mad on low even but it is refreshing not to be as bright as those Deck's I love. This is a good, solid board. I highly recommend it and right now over other Topre's for a full size. I am very pleased with it and I am very hard to impress. You just have to accept any of Topre's cases move around but you do not have to push it. Just sit it down and start typing. I wish I had the Japan market one. As usual they saved the fanciest for the home market. I still would not buy it on the Grey market either if I could. My feeling is it is not polite to support those people. Everyone is entitled to do as they please of course.
Post by: dante on Tue, 10 October 2017, 18:15:15
I’d never feel bad about competition giving me a lower price.
The problem is they are not authorized to do so. Like Grey market stuff.
How do you know they are not authorized to do so? Are you an employee of either Topre or MK?
If MK was indeed pulling shenanigans I doubt Topre would have given them access to their entire portfolio of products.
Post by: typo on Wed, 11 October 2017, 23:43:06
You know like PC stuff you can buy it way under legit prices but you might be very sorry you did. I am not a goody two shoes by any means. I just do not think that is very polite. to undermine something someone worked hard to design. Obviously I feel this way as a programmer. Like WAREZ to me straight up sucks. If for nothing else taking dinner off my table! This is loosely likened to that.
There is no reason Seasonic would lie to me or anyone.
I had also Emailed the CEO of Topre and they responded. Japanese tend to be humble and not inflated like some Americans. So they told me it is over 95% made at there factory in japan. When I had said it was Chinese I was going off of incorrect information and I apologize for that.
Some abuse the law with the slapping label, 1 screw etc. Many speculate New Balance made in USA models are they put the laces in. BS! They pretty much build the whole darn shoe. Maybe the glue is from China.
Think about this, Elite keyboards whom are legit cannot even get stock right now! They sold their remaining stock on Amazon just to gain some capital but who knows when they could restock. Also notice their price! If they could sell if for less they most certainly would since they are in competition with MK. Basically same as new in box Ebay ads.
Anyways I think right now I would sort of suggest this over the 104UB. Since future topre boards will use much of this anyways. The case is so-so just in a different way than the 104UB. It is not a big deal. Flat on the desk it feels very solid. I guess Topre feels GMK is nicer than Dyesub PBT too. This board in Japan I wish I could get. It is like a RGB on steroids. I like the RGB at least as much as the 104UB. I oringed and lubed mine. Even out of the box it certainly had thonk. I do not know if those videos have a cheap mic or what. It is absolutely fine IMO.
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 12 October 2017, 06:05:51
It comes with actual GMK's. They are not Ducky as some think. I put a Massdrop GMK set on mine. Same quality though which is good. White Led is not bad but it is more blue of course.
What comes with GMK??
Certainly not the topre rgb board.
I've never seen a backlit shine through compatible GMK set.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Post by: dante on Thu, 12 October 2017, 07:47:20
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 12 October 2017, 09:01:11
I had also Emailed the CEO of Topre and they responded. Japanese tend to be humble and not inflated like some Americans. So they told me it is over 95% made at there factory in japan. When I had said it was Chinese I was going off of incorrect information and I apologize for that.
typo.. you may be ignoring the fact that the Topre-Ceo (or any topre representative) can not answer in any other way.
There is only one strain of acceptable answers.
It's like asking someone if it is ok to beat their wife, or was it worth it beating their wife after he's already gone n' done it.. Of course the answer is always NO or something along the lines of NO..
Ask any guy, how many females has he got digits to, he'd say 300
Guy Asks his girl-friend, how many guys before him , typical answer = 2-3, reality probably 5+
Post by: LouisHjelmslev on Thu, 12 October 2017, 10:48:27
I had also Emailed the CEO of Topre and they responded. Japanese tend to be humble and not inflated like some Americans. So they told me it is over 95% made at there factory in japan. When I had said it was Chinese I was going off of incorrect information and I apologize for that.
typo.. you may be ignoring the fact that the Topre-Ceo (or any topre representative) can not answer in any other way.
There is only one strain of acceptable answers.
It's like asking someone if it is ok to beat their wife, or was it worth it beating their wife after he's already gone n' done it.. Of course the answer is always NO or something along the lines of NO..
Ask any guy, how many females has he got digits to, he'd say 300
Guy Asks his girl-friend, how many guys before him , typical answer = 2-3, reality probably 5+
Dude, I'm not going to take relationship advice from someone who posts with larger than standard font size on a keyboard forum...
Post by: Riverman on Thu, 12 October 2017, 10:52:55
http://www.topre.co.jp/en/products/elec/keyboards/shoplist.html
Tiger Imports, which is Mechanical Keyboard's actual business name, is listed there as a US distributor. If they were selling grey market items and screwing over Seasonic and Elite Keyboards, then why would Topre list them as an official US distributor?
Post by: zslane on Thu, 12 October 2017, 12:16:13
I just do not think that is very polite. to undermine something someone worked hard to design.
A very noble position to take.
However, nobody need worry that a distributor (like MK) is undermining Topre when they sell under an MSRP. Topre sold the product stock to the distributor at a healthy profit, and what the distributor does with it after that has no effect on Topre's bottom line. It could conceivably have an impact on Topre's relationship with other distributors, but that's up to Topre to police, not us the consumer base.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 12 October 2017, 16:12:17
typo.. you may be ignoring the fact that the Topre-Ceo (or any topre representative) can not answer in any other way.
There is only one strain of acceptable answers.
It's like asking someone if it is ok to beat their wife, or was it worth it beating their wife after he's already gone n' done it.. Of course the answer is always NO or something along the lines of NO..
Ask any guy, how many females has he got digits to, he'd say 300
Guy Asks his girl-friend, how many guys before him , typical answer = 2-3, reality probably 5+
Dude, I'm not going to take relationship advice from someone who posts with larger than standard font size on a keyboard forum...
LouisHjelmslev = Wife Beater
/Confirmed
Post by: typo on Thu, 12 October 2017, 17:22:17
zslane, to be honest I am just miffed I paid $269. So there you go. They are honestly not authorized but you are right save the money who cares.
spamray, see topre told me they are GNK too. With the point TP just made I guess I can gather how honest they are about the origin of their products. It is in fact correct that my GMK set on here he light only shines under them. Which I like better anyways. I sure hope their SMD does not have the solder issues of 3mm Led's. Since they are not even in the US. I will be furious I paid full price if Led's cut out. After warranty my Grandson is the service Guy. If you think about it there realy is no warranty either. Going to send it to Japan? Unless they have US service I do not know of. Their switches hardly ever quit but throw Led's in the mix......time will tell.
Post by: Riverman on Thu, 12 October 2017, 17:33:30
zslane, to be honest I am just miffed I paid $269. So there you go. They are honestly not authorized but you are right save the money who cares.How can you say they're not authorized when they're listed in the distributor list on Topre's website???
Post by: typo on Fri, 13 October 2017, 04:35:57
Now if you don't ming folks, how about a mini poll?
I thought I would put a Deck/TG3 Skull and Crossbones key on the Escape of the Topre. I was not sure because it is a different construction than my GMK set on this. Plus it will be the only translucent key then. I did not if that would look cool or bunk? I do not partake in 3D keys since They suck to actually press. I have some but would not use them. I have a GMK Smiley face if that is better.
Post by: dante on Fri, 13 October 2017, 07:58:14
I don't know.
This is the most sense you've made on this topic.
Post by: Polymer on Fri, 13 October 2017, 08:07:00
But to me it is obvious..
They're on their website, they are...who knows why their price is different..who cares...
Post by: typo on Sat, 18 November 2017, 06:26:30
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 18 November 2017, 10:03:35
I admit when I am wrong. I received misinformation. Topre has allowed any authorized dealer to temporarily sell the RGB for $199USD if they so elect. In an effort to increase sales. Dealers selling it $199 are not making as much profit per unit. They are still welcome to sell it up to $269. As is the case with Elite keyboards. I do not see this as fair but it is completely legit. I just mean one might be bummed to buy it for $269 and then see it for $199 is the only reason. Of course they could just suck it up too. How long this "sale" lasts they will not tell. I am fine as I got mine when they were all $269 for much less as I know a large VAR.
I bought 2x 50 inch tvs for ~$200 each ..
So.. yea.. That topre, NOT a good deal..
Post by: HotRoderX on Sat, 18 November 2017, 16:01:57
I admit when I am wrong. I received misinformation. Topre has allowed any authorized dealer to temporarily sell the RGB for $199USD if they so elect. In an effort to increase sales. Dealers selling it $199 are not making as much profit per unit. They are still welcome to sell it up to $269. As is the case with Elite keyboards. I do not see this as fair but it is completely legit. I just mean one might be bummed to buy it for $269 and then see it for $199 is the only reason. Of course they could just suck it up too. How long this "sale" lasts they will not tell. I am fine as I got mine when they were all $269 for much less as I know a large VAR.
How is it not fair that they would allow people to put the item on sale if they choose? Thats just silly extremely extremely silly! How dare companies have sale to help move product are bring in customers. Sucks when you pay full price then there sale but.. Thats the risk of business since beginning of time.
Post by: TheFresko on Sun, 19 November 2017, 00:41:00
Post by: typo on Sun, 19 November 2017, 03:22:53
TP, that is where you and I differ. Sure you can snag cheap TV's. Compared to a $16,000 60" TV, well there is no comparison. It is night and day.
However, being frugal as a lifestyle is commendable. Not being engrossed by consumption. In that regard, as usual I share your views even though I do not practice them.
I am okay financially and even if I buy some good stuff my family will still get what they need upon my demise. Do I need these things? Absolutely not! I have been encompassed by consumption. I admit it. So in that regard TP, regardless of your finances you are a better person than I. It is difficult to maintain such a philosophy in Established countries today. To resist the urge is exceptional.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 19 November 2017, 04:03:54
TP, that is where you and I differ. Sure you can snag cheap TV's. Compared to a $16,000 60" TV, well there is no comparison. It is night and day.
However, being frugal as a lifestyle is commendable. Not being engrossed by consumption. In that regard, as usual I share your views even though I do not practice them.
I am okay financially and even if I buy some good stuff my family will still get what they need upon my demise. Do I need these things? Absolutely not! I have been encompassed by consumption. I admit it. So in that regard TP, regardless of your finances you are a better person than I. It is difficult to maintain such a philosophy in Established countries today. To resist the urge is exceptional.
I admit they're Different, but the difference in price is exponential. while the improvement in user experience is not.
At some point when the difference in performance had been MUCH larger, back in earlier 2000s when plasma first came out, yea $16,000 made sense.
But it's not that large a gap today for TVs.
I'm not arguing the merit of CHOICE with you, only that the technical differences between tvs today is not large enough to justify the gap.
JUST AS, a topre is NOT worth $200 while the Clones are $50 retail, $10 to produce.
Post by: zslane on Sun, 19 November 2017, 10:53:03
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 19 November 2017, 14:44:17
$250 is nothing for a decent keyboard. A drop in the bucket. I can scrounge that much from the loose change in my couch. A Realforce board that only costs loose couch change is a bargain! :cool:
You've been around too long and have succumbed to Keyboard Hysteria..
For perspective::
Last week I just bought a 2x 50 inch 4k tv, for $190 each..
-- You might say, well Tp, that must be a ****ty tv, NO ACTUALLY, it's pretty god damn awesome..
-- 16ms latency , accepts 4:4:4, 4k 60hz.. 120hz pwm backlight. Decent motion clarity.
At $250 for a topre, pcb, some silicone rubber, and a cheap off the shelf controller chip..
You tell me, what kind of a rip-off is that in terms of Value..
Post by: phetto on Sun, 19 November 2017, 15:16:29
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 19 November 2017, 15:23:56
Just embrace it.
Dive Dive Dive !!
Post by: typo on Mon, 20 November 2017, 01:31:40
Post by: Polymer on Tue, 21 November 2017, 17:44:08
I'm not arguing the merit of CHOICE with you, only that the technical differences between tvs today is not large enough to justify the gap.
JUST AS, a topre is NOT worth $200 while the Clones are $50 retail, $10 to produce.
To you...Value is not objective so your attempt to make it so is useless..
It isn't that I don't agree with your assessment of value from my own personal standpoint...as in, Cheaper TVs are better value, Topre Clones are better value...but that doesn't mean you wouldn't spend more because you want that slightly better experience..
Here's an example..
I have both Topre and Clones...why? Because I wanted a topre like experience but I didn't want to have to worry about it so I have it at work....if it gets lost, stolen, broken *shrug*, but I still want Topre at home..
Post by: zslane on Tue, 21 November 2017, 17:51:43
Post by: typo on Tue, 21 November 2017, 23:14:30
Oh of course "value" has no bearing if but one choice. If you want it, no choice. Regardless I feel the RGB is easily worth $350. So just the opposite of what you think. If I sold mine as it is with my labor I want $850. It is not for sale though. I cannot prove it is made in Japan but regardless, even stock it is great IMO.
Of course in some market with many choices it is up to one what matters to them. Simply buying the cheapest is rarely the best value. Like judge what product is cheaper per pound while overlooking the ingredients.
I enjoy a good bargain but certainly not junk. It may have variable pricing. I found it "unfair" but I am not even one to speak. I paid less than that when it was a mandatory $269. Like yesterday BH had a high end display for $3,200. Today it is back to $3,900. It is not even black Friday. If one is going to be upset a price changed they might as well just not shop. Especially online. It may sound like I am calling myself out. Well I guess,yeah. The truth is if I am buying this stuff I am not poor and honestly it does not matter. I am sorry I made a big deal about it. If you want something specific, When you want it you pay what it costs there and then. If some website has it cheaper you did not do your homework. Unless they are not legit but Mech boards is in fact. Just took topre up on their offer, That's all. This is not a big deal. It boils down to people can do whatever they want with their money so long as it is legal I suppose. Value is most certainly "perceived" and absolutely not objective. Remember people paid $5,000 for a Beanie Baby and now it is worth $5? Perfect example. They choose. That is the beauty of a free society. We are consumers and driving the market ourselves. So be it. I am good with that.
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 21 November 2017, 23:31:48
It boils down to people can do whatever they want with their money so long as it is legal I suppose. Value is most certainly "perceived" and absolutely not objective. Remember people paid $5,000 for a Beanie Baby and now it is worth $5? Perfect example. They choose. That is the beauty of a free society. We are consumers and driving the market ourselves. So be it. I am good with that.
People also choose drugs or to not pay child support or commit crime
Choosing to overpay balances out from the 2 player perspective, one loses, one gains, but that is not necessarily the optimal layout when society has to be taken into account.
I eat less animals, you eat more animals.. between the two of us it balances.
But this earth is rapidly being depleted of ALL life, due to the prevailing standard western food choices.
Everyone will DIE..
It is a choice, is it so beautiful ?
Post by: ander on Wed, 22 November 2017, 02:53:20
Post by: JohanAR on Wed, 22 November 2017, 05:06:23
Post by: typo on Thu, 28 December 2017, 22:23:03
My entire diet is raw veggies and fruit. I am older. I was a raw Vegan before the word existed. Putting things in a commercial Hobart juicer. I fully agree choosing to overpay sucks. I did not do that friggen intestinally. The price is fixed. They offered a 4 month discount I was unaware of and my dealer did not care. It is not a huge deal. I paid $30 more or something if I remember. I just saw this forgot about it.