Author Topic: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint (Read 376458 times)

Vitaly · « **Reply #900 on:** Sun, 06 July 2014, 17:42:09 »

Is it possible to buy trackpoint stick? Can't find. (trackpoint stick for diy/soldering)

lowpoly · « **Reply #901 on:** Mon, 07 July 2014, 03:47:56 »

No, not yet, sorry.

We have to make a breakout board before it is usable in DIY projects. It's on the list.

trishume · « **Reply #902 on:** Mon, 07 July 2014, 09:45:50 »

Quote from: lowpoly on Mon, 07 July 2014, 03:47:56

No, not yet, sorry. We have to make a breakout board before it is usable in DIY projects. It's on the list.

I'm sure lots of people on this forum are electronically adept enough to hook one up given only the physical module, the ASIC and a datasheet.
This looks like a really cool component and it would be great if people could order one. It's currently extremely difficult for even advanced hobbyists to procure trackpoint modules without ripping apart thinkpads.
The only way I have found to buy just the modules is PMing carlos2014.

One thing I'm wondering is do you have an approximate cost of the modules? I recently was investigating how much it would cost to build a keyboard made with 10 trackpoints but it turned out to be prohibitively expensive with each module being $20.

lowpoly · « **Reply #903 on:** Mon, 07 July 2014, 09:58:56 »

Without the breakout board and the stick extender it won't be fun in most DIY projects.

Right now the datasheet is only available under NDA. I'm currently working on this.

Quote

but it turned out to be prohibitively expensive with each module being $20.

It's more.

I know I test the patience of some of you and I apologize for that.

Vitaly · « **Reply #904 on:** Mon, 07 July 2014, 10:42:46 »

Quote from: trishume on Mon, 07 July 2014, 09:45:50

One thing I'm wondering is do you have an approximate cost of the modules? I recently was investigating how much it would cost to build a keyboard made with 10 trackpoints but it turned out to be prohibitively expensive with each module being $20.

Hi, after some research and googling find some possible variants:

http://goo.gl/vqAs7B - alibaba, send message about samplers/mini order but no answer for now - $3
http://goo.gl/QtkMwb - sprintek, I think this device installed on Tex Yoda - $29
Dual-axis XY Joystick like http://r.ebay.com/Poh1b2 for testing ideas - $3-4

trishume · « **Reply #905 on:** Mon, 07 July 2014, 17:18:32 »

Thanks for the answers lowpoly and Vitaly. Looks like I'll shelve my idea for a 10 trackpoint keyboard for now. The alibaba one looked like a good price but it has a minimum order quantity of 1000, oh well.

I think the only way it would be possible to make a keyboard out of 10 trackpoints for a reasonable price would be to only have one controller ASIC and switch the inputs of it around to each force sensor set every fraction of second. But that would be complex and possibly not work depending on how the sensors worked.

Quote

I know I test the patience of some of you and I apologize for that.

Don't worry about it. You're the only one who's close to releasing an awesome trackpoint module for full sized keyboards and that tantalizes some of us. But it puts you ahead of 100% of the rest of the population who is not working on cool keyboards trackpoint stuff. Your keyboard design is awesome and you should feel awesome.

hasu · « **Reply #906 on:** Mon, 07 July 2014, 21:53:36 »

I can source old junk Thinkpad keyboard for 100yen at local store if you are interested. But shpping cost may kill you.

I'm curious whether one micro controller can host all PS/2 signals simultaneously form ten TrackPoints.

hanya · « **Reply #907 on:** Mon, 07 July 2014, 22:51:17 »

Reading 3 bytes data from a TrackPoint takes 5 ms. If I read one by one over 10 module, scanning rate is little slow. Fast MCU could read data from them asynchronously.

sordna · « **Reply #908 on:** Mon, 07 July 2014, 23:11:25 »

Guys, laptop trackpoints are not really suitable. They are way too short to fit in a keyboard with full travel keys. What is needed is trackpoints like the one used in Unicomp endurapro me thinks.

Vitaly · « **Reply #909 on:** Thu, 10 July 2014, 04:35:45 »

Quote from: sordna on Mon, 07 July 2014, 23:11:25

Guys, laptop trackpoints are not really suitable. They are way too short to fit in a keyboard with full travel keys. What is needed is trackpoints like the one used in Unicomp endurapro me thinks.

Yes, it too short. But it depends where you install stick or you can use exteeender

Who knows is it possible to get small joystick with rotation support?

lowpoly · « **Reply #910 on:** Fri, 11 July 2014, 13:07:50 »

First switch pcbs came today:

The LED connectors are not connected, except F, J and Esc. No disco lights for now.

But because all the "expensive" parts are on the controller pcb (except touch control), the switch pcb is easy to replace later on.

Several alternative switch positions for those who want to solder

like
- ISO
- 5 1u keys in the lower right
- 1u key right of right shift (making "L" cursor block possible)
- 2 1u keys instead of backspace
- support for centered and offset space bar switches
- centered and offset CapsLock

If everything works out as expected these will be supported in the programming software as well (see small handles. Backspace came later, I still have to fix the design):

I think we will only do regular ISO and ANSI though. But if you have the keycaps and want to mod, you can.

Vibex · « **Reply #911 on:** Fri, 11 July 2014, 13:10:29 »

Quote from: lowpoly on Fri, 11 July 2014, 13:07:50

First switch pcbs came today:

Show Image

The LED connectors are not connected, except F, J and Esc. No disco lights for now. :p But because all the "expensive" parts are on the controller pcb (except touch control), the switch pcb is easy to replace later on.

Several alternative switch positions for those who want to solder :D like
- ISO
- 5 1u keys in the lower right
- 1u key right of right shift (making "L" cursor block possible)
- 2 1u keys instead of backspace
- support for centered and offset space bar switches
- centered and offset CapsLock

If everything works out as expected these will be supported in the programming software as well (see small handles. Backspace came later, I still have to fix the design):

Show Image

I think we will only do regular ISO and ANSI though. But if you have the keycaps and want to mod, you can.

Looking good, really excited for this. #HYPE

lowpoly · « **Reply #912 on:** Thu, 31 July 2014, 08:24:37 »

Short update, I ordered the first cnc-milled case a couple of days ago. Will take six weeks (I'm on a waiting list).

Rev. B of the controller pcb should be waiting for me in the office by now.

We'll also provide connector pads for the Sprintek module mentioned a couple of posts ago.

bueller · « **Reply #913 on:** Thu, 31 July 2014, 08:56:30 »

Looking awesome! So the new PCB's will support Pure layouts?

lowpoly · « **Reply #914 on:** Thu, 31 July 2014, 12:18:05 »

If you mean a key right of right shift then yes.

bueller · « **Reply #915 on:** Fri, 01 August 2014, 03:45:00 »

Quote from: lowpoly on Thu, 31 July 2014, 12:18:05

If you mean a key right of right shift then yes.

Sweet! Consider me very interested then, I only buy 60% boards with the short right shift now. Will probably use this as my couch surfing board, just need to finish my DIY bluetooth addon.

lowpoly · « **Reply #916 on:** Fri, 01 August 2014, 15:14:00 »

You will have to solder the switch though (and find keycaps).

xybre · « **Reply #917 on:** Tue, 12 August 2014, 15:45:34 »

Quote from: lowpoly on Fri, 11 July 2014, 13:07:50

First switch pcbs came today:

Show Image

The LED connectors are not connected, except F, J and Esc. No disco lights for now. :p But because all the "expensive" parts are on the controller pcb (except touch control), the switch pcb is easy to replace later on.

Several alternative switch positions for those who want to solder :D like
- ISO
- 5 1u keys in the lower right
- 1u key right of right shift (making "L" cursor block possible)
- 2 1u keys instead of backspace
- support for centered and offset space bar switches
- centered and offset CapsLock

If everything works out as expected these will be supported in the programming software as well (see small handles. Backspace came later, I still have to fix the design):

Show Image

I think we will only do regular ISO and ANSI though. But if you have the keycaps and want to mod, you can.

I just spent some time looking around your site and posts here, your keyboard looks fantastic. The configurable layouts and function keys are great, and integrating the pointer-stick was a great idea that really fits with the overall ethos. Is there like a notification email list or something?

lowpoly · « **Reply #918 on:** Tue, 19 August 2014, 13:53:21 »

Quote from: xybre on Tue, 12 August 2014, 15:45:34

Is there like a notification email list or something?

There is no automated list. You can either watch this thread or send me an email (steff / guru-board.com).

lowpoly · « **Reply #919 on:** Mon, 15 September 2014, 08:59:12 »

Quick update pic:

Working so far. Still a lot to sort out, hardware and software. Next pcb revision is in the works.
No case yet.

rgomes · « **Reply #920 on:** Wed, 22 October 2014, 13:40:35 »

I inform that I've created a xkb configuration for X11 (Linux/FreeBSD) which provides emulation for the MINIGURU and TEX Yoda keyboards. There's also some small bits aiming making life of Emacs users less stressing (to the left pinkie, I mean).

https://github.com/frgomes/carpalx

I hope it helps

nandop · « **Reply #921 on:** Thu, 30 October 2014, 18:34:54 »

Edit: Deleted content. Wrong thread!

Since I'm here, I want one! =)

lowpoly · « **Reply #922 on:** Tue, 04 November 2014, 11:27:39 »

nandop: wrong thread?

2nd CNC case:

vivalarevolución · « **Reply #923 on:** Thu, 06 November 2014, 07:44:34 »

Quote from: lowpoly on Tue, 04 November 2014, 11:27:39

nandop: wrong thread?

2nd CNC case:

Show Image

Oooofff. Nice.

CPTBadAss · « **Reply #924 on:** Thu, 06 November 2014, 07:46:05 »

Quote from: lowpoly on Tue, 04 November 2014, 11:27:39

nandop: wrong thread?

2nd CNC case:

Show Image

Damn that's looking good lowpoly.

lowpoly · « **Reply #925 on:** Thu, 20 November 2014, 05:11:47 »

^^^ Thanks!

Still working our way through the revisions. Revision 'C' of the controller pcb came on Monday. So, two days ago parts were soldered and it wouldn't work.

Then yesterday, after a small correction, for the first time EVERYTHING WORKED. A good day.

7 months so far.

Had some problems with the case too which means I can't brush and clear coat it. So this one will be white which was on my list anyway. Will take me a few days to get paint etc.

Also, I soldered my first SMD controller board yesterday. Much easier than I thought. Smaller parts were 0805. We switched to 0603 in the meantime but I see no problem there too.

bertocq · « **Reply #926 on:** Thu, 20 November 2014, 05:43:35 »

I just registered to let you know that what you are doing is really great IMHO and I want to encourage you to continue with the good work

lowpoly · « **Reply #927 on:** Thu, 20 November 2014, 06:15:17 »

Thank you!

lowpoly · « **Reply #928 on:** Mon, 08 December 2014, 05:25:18 »

I f*cked up the paint job (as always). Too much clear coat and it ran to the case edges. Too much paint, but before that the "sprinkles" wouldn't "merge", hmm... Not enough air pressure or something. Have to figure that out and do the paint job again.

Almost everything put together for the first time. Electronics worked (partly) out of the case but right here and now - not. Still some space issues for the FFC cables to figure out.

The mouse buttons lean out a little, so when pressed, the thumb doesn't touch the corner of the space bar cutout. Not too happy with how it looks right now, I'll try "thicker" next time. Clearcoat missing on those too. But the click feeling with tight fitting buttons is really good - unlike the 2008 prototype which was always lacking this.

Putting the problems aside - I'm really happy with how it looks and feels.

(Front pic slightly retouched because the bad paint was too distracting.)

Case radii will be sharper in the next version:

Feet should be gray with the white case but I don't have the material yet. Most of the holes will be gone in the next version. This was designed for tapping which is much easier with through-holes but now the plan is to use self-cutting screws.

After all a not-so-perfect interim step and a lot of work left but for me a big milestone nonetheless.

heedpantsnow · « **Reply #929 on:** Mon, 08 December 2014, 06:59:08 »

Sweet. Still holding on for this!

I know you said you retouched the photo, but I think the paint looks great!

Lunatique · « **Reply #930 on:** Mon, 29 December 2014, 20:33:42 »

Oh man, when you greeted me upon my arrival here at GH, I had no idea you were working on this project! This thing looks amazing and I'm definitely in the camp of "take my money naowwwww!" for this beautiful piece of work. Can't wait for it to finally become available for purchase.

BTW, are you still working in CG?

Lubed Up Slug · « **Reply #931 on:** Tue, 30 December 2014, 19:28:09 »

So if we wanted to try our own design the best way to get one of those pointers would be from a ThinkPad?

Lunatique · « **Reply #932 on:** Thu, 01 January 2015, 15:04:11 »

I didn't read this entire thread, so if this was already discussed, I apologize.

Lenovo holds the patent to the most up-to-date version of the Trackpoint design, while Unicomp owns the older version (that's my understanding anyway). Unicomp's is terrible--I just returned an Endurapro because of how lame the trackpoint was. Lenovo's version gets rave reviews and I was wondering if it's possible for a small indie guy such as lowpoly to license their Trackpoint to use in his MiniGuru? Would the cost be prohibitive?

engicoder · « **Reply #933 on:** Thu, 01 January 2015, 16:57:28 »

Quote from: Lunatique on Thu, 01 January 2015, 15:04:11

I didn't read this entire thread, so if this was already discussed, I apologize.

Lenovo holds the patent to the most up-to-date version of the Trackpoint design, while Unicomp owns the older version (that's my understanding anyway). Unicomp's is terrible--I just returned an Endurapro because of how lame the trackpoint was. Lenovo's version gets rave reviews and I was wondering if it's possible for a small indie guy such as lowpoly to license their Trackpoint to use in his MiniGuru? Would the cost be prohibitive?

I think they are using the Sprintek solution http://sprintek.com/products/SK8702.aspx

lowpoly · « **Reply #934 on:** Fri, 02 January 2015, 08:43:23 »

Happy new year everybody!

Quote from: Lunatique on Mon, 29 December 2014, 20:33:42

Oh man, when you greeted me upon my arrival here at GH, I had no idea you were working on this project! This thing looks amazing and I'm definitely in the camp of "take my money naowwwww!" for this beautiful piece of work. Can't wait for it to finally become available for purchase.

BTW, are you still working in CG?

Thanks.

CG? Not like it used to be. The last "3D" stuff I made (with a team) was this robot:

youtube-Link doesn't work I guess? Here again:

The second pic is in an early stage. After adding all the motors, magnets and wires, it doesn't look as pretty anymore. That's actually one of the main difficulties. Have a removable flexible skin with precise connection points.

The animations in the video are done with a CG model, then transferred to the robot servos (old game development rule, never leave the animations to the programmers :-P).

When this project ended we put all resources on the Miniguru.

Quote from: Lubed Up Slug on Tue, 30 December 2014, 19:28:09

So if we wanted to try our own design the best way to get one of those pointers would be from a ThinkPad?

For the keyboard in the first post, I took a Trackpoint 4 from an old IBM rubber dome 'board. Can't look up the model # right now but it should be here somewhere. The advantage is that you don't have to make an extender.

Edit: IBM KPD8923

Quote from: Lunatique on Thu, 01 January 2015, 15:04:11

Lenovo holds the patent to the most up-to-date version of the Trackpoint design, while Unicomp owns the older version (that's my understanding anyway). Unicomp's is terrible--I just returned an Endurapro because of how lame the trackpoint was. Lenovo's version gets rave reviews and I was wondering if it's possible for a small indie guy such as lowpoly to license their Trackpoint to use in his MiniGuru? Would the cost be prohibitive?

I think the Unicomp patent expired. Al least the USPTO calculator said that some years ago. What Lenovo added after that - I don't know. I plan to use a commercially available stick that comes with its own patents.

We provided connectors for the Sprintek in the last revision. But right now I'm on the edge with even getting samples because of two independent broken sticks reported.

Lubed Up Slug · « **Reply #935 on:** Fri, 02 January 2015, 11:33:53 »

Quote from: lowpoly on Fri, 02 January 2015, 08:43:23

Quote from: Lubed Up Slug on Tue, 30 December 2014, 19:28:09
So if we wanted to try our own design the best way to get one of those pointers would be from a ThinkPad?
For the keyboard in the first post, I took a Trackpoint 4 from an old IBM rubber dome 'board. Can't look up the model # right now but it should be here somewhere. The advantage is that you don't have to make an extender.

Edit: IBM KPD8923

Quote from: Lunatique on Thu, 01 January 2015, 15:04:11
Lenovo holds the patent to the most up-to-date version of the Trackpoint design, while Unicomp owns the older version (that's my understanding anyway). Unicomp's is terrible--I just returned an Endurapro because of how lame the trackpoint was. Lenovo's version gets rave reviews and I was wondering if it's possible for a small indie guy such as lowpoly to license their Trackpoint to use in his MiniGuru? Would the cost be prohibitive?
I think the Unicomp patent expired. Al least the USPTO calculator said that some years ago. What Lenovo added after that - I don't know. I plan to use a commercially available stick that comes with its own patents.

We provided connectors for the Sprintek in the last revision. But right now I'm on the edge with even getting samples because of two independent broken sticks reported.

What is an extender? Is that just the stick you made?

And the sprintek pointer seems to break or is it just the extender sticks? So my best bet would be to find one from an old IBM board or thinkpad?

lowpoly · « **Reply #936 on:** Fri, 02 January 2015, 16:47:36 »

Notebook sticks are only a few millimeters long so you need to extend them for fullsize keys:

You need proper tools for this. Do some research and decide what you can/want to do.

Lunatique · « **Reply #937 on:** Fri, 02 January 2015, 18:19:54 »

What was the boy robot for? R&D for a commercial product?

With that type of project under your belt, I'm sure you'll get the MiniGuru out there as a product--at least on the tech side. I don't remember what your business background is, or if you intend to run the business end of it yourself. Didn't you run your own studio at one point, or were you a freelancer?

daerid · « **Reply #938 on:** Sun, 04 January 2015, 02:37:34 »

6 years...

Patiently waiting...

It's so close I can taste it...

lowpoly · « **Reply #939 on:** Mon, 05 January 2015, 14:30:56 »

Quote from: Lunatique on Fri, 02 January 2015, 18:19:54

What was the boy robot for? R&D for a commercial product?

Internal research project with no specific goal.

Quote from: Lunatique on Fri, 02 January 2015, 18:19:54

With that type of project under your belt, I'm sure you'll get the MiniGuru out there as a product--at least on the tech side. I don't remember what your business background is, or if you intend to run the business end of it yourself. Didn't you run your own studio at one point, or were you a freelancer?

I always had a company (with my partners) and still have it. Not a studio - we are basically a software company.

Quote from: daerid on Sun, 04 January 2015, 02:37:34

6 years...

Patiently waiting...

It's so close I can taste it...

I'm sorry it takes so long.

Looking back the last half year I wonder where the months went...

daerid · « **Reply #940 on:** Tue, 06 January 2015, 15:34:48 »

Quote from: lowpoly on Mon, 05 January 2015, 14:30:56

I'm sorry it takes so long. Looking back the last half year I wonder where the months went...

No worries. I'd rather have it right than right now.

Lunatique · « **Reply #941 on:** Wed, 14 January 2015, 00:23:56 »

Hey lowpoly, don't know if you have seen this, but you might be interested in this group buy at Massdrop for Trackpoint/Mouse Point: https://www.massdrop.com/vote/trackpoint--mouse-point-module-for-kb-enthusiast-and-diy?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Personalization%20Email%2020150112%20%28Personalized%29&utm_campaign=Personalization%20Promo%2020150112&mode=guest_open

lowpoly · « **Reply #942 on:** Thu, 15 January 2015, 16:08:19 »

^^^ Thanks for the suggestion!

wyatt8740 · « **Reply #943 on:** Fri, 13 February 2015, 17:12:25 »

Wow, just discovered this. I do want

edit: oh, wait, no arrow keys. Any chance of a version with arrow keys (TKL preferred)?

sypl · « **Reply #944 on:** Mon, 16 February 2015, 23:34:57 »

Man, that case is gorgeous.

lowpoly · « **Reply #945 on:** Wed, 04 March 2015, 13:17:19 »

Quote from: wyatt8740 on Fri, 13 February 2015, 17:12:25

edit: oh, wait, no arrow keys. Any chance of a version with arrow keys (TKL preferred)?

No TKL for now

. The pcb has drills and connections for an "L" cursor cluster in the lower right though.

ION, the developer who left in November will be back for another month and hopefully, hopefully we can finish Rev C and (more important) Rev D.

MrRooks · « **Reply #946 on:** Mon, 09 March 2015, 12:39:32 »

Sorry I can't seem to find a way to search inside an individual thread. Can you tell me what switches you used for the mouse buttons? I'm working on my own trackpoint mod and I'm looking at switch options.

yorgasor · « **Reply #947 on:** Tue, 31 March 2015, 11:29:19 »

Long time drooler (wow, has it really been almost 6 years?), first time poster...

How programmable will the mouse buttons be? I use the middle mouse button more than the right mouse button. If we'll only have two buttons available on the keyboard, I'd really like to make the right button a "middle click."

lowpoly · « **Reply #948 on:** Wed, 20 May 2015, 11:14:41 »

So, the developer was back, but only for a few days. Soldered the Rev D controller but it wouldn't work. There's one (other) guy left working on it and during the last weeks he managed to debug the pcb and fix it so that it works now. One basic function doesn't. I have to look into that, I think it's a programming issue. The new Rev D switch pcb is soldered too and both should be on the way to my office as we speak. We found a few minor bugs that shouldn't hurt function but we'll have to do another pcb revision in the future. My goal is to have something working and I think we could be close.

The Rev D case is milled already and I have to "brush" it. This one should go to powder coating, clear, with black keycaps.

We also continued a bit on the programmer software, making it resizable with bootstrap.

Quote from: MrRooks on Mon, 09 March 2015, 12:39:32

Sorry I can't seem to find a way to search inside an individual thread. Can you tell me what switches you used for the mouse buttons? I'm working on my own trackpoint mod and I'm looking at switch options.

Mouse-type micro switches. In the end they evolved to very small SMD types with the switch nub on top, so the button/lever presses down on these. Not sure if the Mouser part # will help you. Whether they work for you depends on lever construction but I can lookup the number if you want.

Before that we had mouse micro switches with the nub at the side, with 90 deg through hole connectors. These interfered with the spacebar stabilizer and there was a risk of shortened contacts. With the SMD switches this has been resolved. Also, now that the lever presses down on the switch and not sideways we don't need screws anymore that keep the switch in place in case of abuse. Much better construction overall.

Quote from: yorgasor on Tue, 31 March 2015, 11:29:19

Long time drooler (wow, has it really been almost 6 years?), first time poster...

How programmable will the mouse buttons be? I use the middle mouse button more than the right mouse button. If we'll only have two buttons available on the keyboard, I'd really like to make the right button a "middle click."

More than 6 years.

Mouse switches are part of the matrix so you can program them like any other switch (or make any other switch a mouse button).

lowpoly · « **Reply #949 on:** Fri, 29 May 2015, 09:29:11 »

Re: mouse switches, here's the pic:

News:

Author Topic: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint (Read 376458 times)