Is there a switch for me?

[Redspeed93]

After having bought what seems like every switch out there I've yet to find anything I truly love.

I like the tactility of switches such as the different Panda's, Zealios, Kailh's Hako Royal Clear and Pro Purple but I very often find myself mistyping on them because I stop depressing the after the bump, but at this point the switch has not yet actuated.

I find the different brown variants to be better for typing, as the actuation and the bump are simultaneous, however sometimes I find myself just bottoming out the keys because the tactile event is so minute and borderline unnoticeable.

So what I really want is a switch that has the tactile bump at the same time as the actuation, but with significantly more tactility than any of the brown variants.
I'm not looking for a heavy switch, just one with a bump that I can actually feel on activation.

But does that exist?

[Nuclear Nachos]

have you tried ergo/stock cherry clears or boba u4 (they're silent switches but the u4thocks are non silenced with a longer pole and slightly more similar to pandas afaik)?

[Maledicted]

Do you have an aversion to clickies?

Do you feel a need to not bottom out?

[Redspeed93]

have you tried ergo/stock cherry clears or boba u4 (they're silent switches but the u4thocks are non silenced with a longer pole and slightly more similar to pandas afaik)?

I have both Cherry Clears and Boba U4.

While the Clears are definitely closer to my ideal switch than the brown variants I mentioned, it just doesn't go far enough. The bump is still too small to notice when typing.

The U4 has the same problem for me of the pandas, zealios etc. being the top bump with actuation after the bump, which causes me to mistype all the time.


I think another way to describe what I'm looking for is a Kailh Box Jade, but imagine there was no click-sound.
This switch actuates on a very noticeable, snappy bump (which is not actually on the stem, but a result of the click-bar)  and the bump is very, very close to the actuation point. I cannot enter the bump without also actuating the switch.

Do you have an aversion to clickies?

Do you feel a need to not bottom out?

I've never used a full keyboard of clicky switches, however I cannot imagine that I can stay sane - and the same goes for coworkers or teammates when gaming - with the noise of a full keyboard of clickies.
I do feel a need to bottom out but I think this mostly a result of "weak" tactile switches. When I type slower and/or less I don't bottom out, because I can sense the bump and stop depressing. When I'm going full steam ahead I'm beating these poor keys likes there's no tomorrow simply because I can't really feel the bump.

[Maledicted]

I think another way to describe what I'm looking for is a Kailh Box Jade, but imagine there was no click-sound.
This switch actuates on a very noticeable, snappy bump (which is not actually on the stem, but a result of the click-bar)  and the bump is very, very close to the actuation point. I cannot enter the bump without also actuating the switch.

Have you tried Matias' "quiet click" dampened tactiles, or any Alps tactiles for that matter? They're both crisp and quiet.

Do you have an aversion to clickies?

Do you feel a need to not bottom out?

I've never used a full keyboard of clicky switches, however I cannot imagine that I can stay sane - and the same goes for coworkers or teammates when gaming - with the noise of a full keyboard of clickies.
I do feel a need to bottom out but I think this mostly a result of "weak" tactile switches. When I type slower and/or less I don't bottom out, because I can sense the bump and stop depressing. When I'm going full steam ahead I'm beating these poor keys likes there's no tomorrow simply because I can't really feel the bump.

Why is it that you stop depressing when you feel the bump? Why not smash every single switch through the full travel? I have some Halo trues in my Drop Alt, mostly just because they came in it, and I wanted to try such things. I think they're the only switches I somewhat regularly type with that I don't naturally bottom out with when typing ... mostly just because of their weighting. I think I do fail to actuate on presses from time to time with them.

[Redspeed93]

Have you tried Matias' "quiet click" dampened tactiles, or any Alps tactiles for that matter? They're both crisp and quiet.

I need MX-style switches, so I have not tried anything non-MX. Should have specified that, sorry 

Why is it that you stop depressing when you feel the bump? Why not smash every single switch through the full travel? I have some Halo trues in my Drop Alt, mostly just because they came in it, and I wanted to try such things. I think they're the only switches I somewhat regularly type with that I don't naturally bottom out with when typing ... mostly just because of their weighting. I think I do fail to actuate on presses from time to time with them.

For me the entire point of a non-linear switch is that I don't need to smash it through the board. Whether its click or tactile bump, that to me is the signal to stop pressing. But like I said, right now when going full speed I do bottom out because that signal is just not clear enough to me.

[Polymer]

For me the entire point of a non-linear switch is that I don't need to smash it through the board. Whether its click or tactile bump, that to me is the signal to stop pressing. But like I said, right now when going full speed I do bottom out because that signal is just not clear enough to me.

No..that's not it.  You do NOT react to the tactile bump and stop yourself from bottoming out..whatever you read and thought made sense, is wrong.  That's not what is happening. 

There is nothing wrong with you looking for a more tactile switch...for many that is just a more enjoyable typing experience...but if you think it is going to prevent you from bottoming out, no, you're wrong..

In fact, I'd argue a larger tactile bump makes you more likely to bottom out simply because you have to use MORE force to overcome the bump and the drop off from that.

You don't bottom out or lightly bottom out when you're typing slowly because you're not using as much speed/force to press the keys..which happens when you're not typing near your top speed...  You can get to a point where you're bottoming out lightly but I think the whole idea of not bottoming out is a myth. 

If you want an mechanism to help you from bottoming out...you can pick a switch that ramps up the weight as you get closer to bottom..that will keep you from bottoming but what it really does it create a pseudo bottom out...

[Bjerrk]

No..that's not it.  You do NOT react to the tactile bump and stop yourself from bottoming out..whatever you read and thought made sense, is wrong.  That's not what is happening.

Nonsense.

With some tactile switches, that is exactly what happens. Take Cherry MX Clears as an example. The tactile bump is clearly noticeable, and the force required to pass the bump is much, much less than the bottom-out force.
For me, and many others, this leads to a style of typing where one uses the bump to clearly register that the key has actuated, and the stroke is then cushioned, rather than bottoming out.

chyros explains it here:

As for "pseudo bottom-out" ... No.

[Polymer]

No..that's not it.  You do NOT react to the tactile bump and stop yourself from bottoming out..whatever you read and thought made sense, is wrong.  That's not what is happening.

Nonsense.

With some tactile switches, that is exactly what happens. Take Cherry MX Clears as an example. The tactile bump is clearly noticeable, and the force required to pass the bump is much, much less than the bottom-out force.
For me, and many others, this leads to a style of typing where one uses the bump to clearly register that the key has actuated, and the stroke is then cushioned, rather than bottoming out.

chyros explains it here:

As for "pseudo bottom-out" ... No.

I'm not sure you understand what I said...but if you think you're reacting to a tactile bump, you are not.

And ramping up weight near the bottom is indeed a pseudo bottom out.  Lets say full travel is 4mm.  at 3.8mm it takes 1 ton of force to go from 3.8mm to 4mm.  Will you ever get to 4mm?  No.  Have you technically bottomed out?  No...So on switches where the weight required is ramped up to keep you from bottoming out, while technically you have not bottomed out, all you've done created a situation where the force to bottom out > than the what you're pushing while typing. 

O-rings, for example, can do very much the same thing.  They put something in the way of technically bottoming out.  Thinner ones you may still bottom out..thicker one or multiple o-rings prevent you from bottoming out by requiring more force to do so than what you're able to generate. 

So what I said was if that's all you want, you can find switches that require significant force to technically bottom out...If that makes you feel better to think you're not bottoming out, as if that was some sort of accomplishment, then by all means, think that.  (But hint:  It isn't). 

[hvontres]

Honestly, I think you are looking for some type of buckling spring switch. The "tactile" event is the switching event by design. Of course, for now you are pretty much limited to Model M/ Model F boards for now. I am really hoping the new Kono beamspring switch comes out soon. I would love to have something of that sort for custom designs.

I actually like my Hako Trues fairly well, they have enough of a bump to help me slow down and a stiff enough spring to keep me from bottoming out too hard. I am using a set on my daily driver right now and they feel pretty decent. I haven't really tried any of the "high end" tactile switches, since I really don't feel like speding $1/switch.

[Bjerrk]

And ramping up weight near the bottom is indeed a pseudo bottom out.  Lets say full travel is 4mm.  at 3.8mm it takes 1 ton of force to go from 3.8mm to 4mm.  Will you ever get to 4mm?  No.  Have you technically bottomed out?  No...So on switches where the weight required is ramped up to keep you from bottoming out, while technically you have not bottomed out, all you've done created a situation where the force to bottom out > than the what you're pushing while typing. 

But, surely, you understand the difference between a large discontinuous jump in the force and a region of the F(x) diagram where the derivative is simply sufficient to cushion the stroke? 

With that said, if what you're trying to say is that one does not consciously react to the bump, and then decrease the applied force to avoid bottoming out, I would have to agree.

However, the same thing could be said for audible feedback. You do not instantaneously change your force output in response to the click. But that is not the point.
One of the advantages of a tactile bump, as well as a click, is that it teaches you when the switch actuates. That is why it is important that the tactile event (or click) is not decoupled from the actuation. 
Over time, this teaches you to apply the correct amount of force over the desired distance (=do the correct amount of work, the integral of force with distance). It becomes muscle memory, so to speak.
However, if the drop-off after the tactile event is very large and no subsequent ramping up of the return force happens, then it can be difficult not to bottom out. And then we're back to the idea of cushioning ...

[hvontres]

I think to me, the real difference between a decent tactile switch vs a light linear or even (shudder) a ruberdome keyboard comes from not having a jarring bottom out. I think the "pseudo" bottom out from a stiffer spring and light bump are much more preferable to having a jarring stop at the end. I recently started using an old wyse serial terminal with MX-Blacks and I actually turned on the audible beep to help me type better. But that is just my preference and I am sure for people used to a 35g linear, my 90g Hakos would be absolute torture.

[Bjerrk]

I think to me, the real difference between a decent tactile switch vs a light linear or even (shudder) a ruberdome keyboard comes from not having a jarring bottom out. I think the "pseudo" bottom out from a stiffer spring and light bump are much more preferable to having a jarring stop at the end. I recently started using an old wyse serial terminal with MX-Blacks and I actually turned on the audible beep to help me type better.

Yeah, makes perfect sense 

[Maledicted]

One of the advantages of a tactile bump, as well as a click, is that it teaches you when the switch actuates. That is why it is important that the tactile event (or click) is not decoupled from the actuation. 
Over time, this teaches you to apply the correct amount of force over the desired distance (=do the correct amount of work, the integral of force with distance). It becomes muscle memory, so to speak.
However, if the drop-off after the tactile event is very large and no subsequent ramping up of the return force happens, then it can be difficult not to bottom out. And then we're back to the idea of cushioning ...

I can't comprehend why anyone would ever need cushioning, and I think that acclimation to the forces required to type efficiently on a given switch takes about the same amount of time for me with linears as it does for clickies and tactiles. I routinely use a lot of vastly different mechanisms, since I love vintage clickies so much, and rotate often to keep things interesting. Every once in a while, going to the extreme end of any spectrum (box navies, MX reds, etc) can be jarring. If I type on the same switch for 30 or more minutes, regardless of the type, I start instinctively using just the required amount of force (given that my fingers have the strength required).

I bottom out so hard on MX reds when I go back to them after a long period away that my fingers start to ache with sustained typing, but before long I'm clacking away with 0 discomfort.

[Darthbaggins]

I would almost ask TheraminGoat about this, as he does have nearly every switch in the MX-variant that has been produced and would have great insight on your possible needs.
personally I use tactiles at work and linears at home - my over-all just typing experience is better on tactiles for my work use, but I have conisdered moving to linear over all as I personally love the buttery smooth feeling.  (linears I prefer are the Gat Black Ink v1's lubed and Gat Yellow - milk topped lubed).

[Polymer]

And ramping up weight near the bottom is indeed a pseudo bottom out.  Lets say full travel is 4mm.  at 3.8mm it takes 1 ton of force to go from 3.8mm to 4mm.  Will you ever get to 4mm?  No.  Have you technically bottomed out?  No...So on switches where the weight required is ramped up to keep you from bottoming out, while technically you have not bottomed out, all you've done created a situation where the force to bottom out > than the what you're pushing while typing. 

But, surely, you understand the difference between a large discontinuous jump in the force and a region of the F(x) diagram where the derivative is simply sufficient to cushion the stroke? 

With that said, if what you're trying to say is that one does not consciously react to the bump, and then decrease the applied force to avoid bottoming out, I would have to agree.

However, the same thing could be said for audible feedback. You do not instantaneously change your force output in response to the click. But that is not the point.
One of the advantages of a tactile bump, as well as a click, is that it teaches you when the switch actuates. That is why it is important that the tactile event (or click) is not decoupled from the actuation. 
Over time, this teaches you to apply the correct amount of force over the desired distance (=do the correct amount of work, the integral of force with distance). It becomes muscle memory, so to speak.
However, if the drop-off after the tactile event is very large and no subsequent ramping up of the return force happens, then it can be difficult not to bottom out. And then we're back to the idea of cushioning ...

Nope...You're not learning to lightly bottom out based on the tactile bump or the click....You end up practicing limiting how much for you exert in order to not bottom out.  That "limiting" of force is also why you can't type your fastest and not bottom out..or I should say, you can't type very fast and not bottom out (and by bottom out I mean some level of hard force that stops you). 

And yes, there is a difference between ramping force up and an actual bottom..that's why I called it a pseudo bottom.  What really is the difference?   And what impact does that have to your typing?  Nothing really....Does it make you feel better to think you're not technically bottoming out?  Did it make a difference to your fingers? 

So many people (mostly new) try to get to this panacea of speed, not bottoming, perfect ergo, healthy fingers, etc, etc....They heard somewhere tactility helps them learn to not bottom out...(I'd probably argue high actuation linear is easier.  Just actuate early on in the key press and give yourself 3+mm to stop if that's what you really want) and yet people eventually learn that the whole not bottoming out thing has just been a waste of time and a bit of a myth.  Yes, not slamming into the bottom of your board is probably a good thing...so nothing wrong with trying to not slam your fingers through your keyboard..but you're trying to get speed and type efficiently...and if you're arguing RSI, typing as quickly as you can and using less force/wear on your fingers...and doing things like bigger tactile, bigger ramp up, isn't doing that....or artificially holding back your fingers isn't good..or using weird form to try to not bottom out, is not good..or just typing slowly simply because you have it stuck in your head you can't bottom out....none of that makes any sense...