Update 2023-06-30: PSA Regarding Mechs & Co and Vendor Group Buys

[skulls]

While I still think that GBs are the only way for some individuals to do runs

damn hear me out tho.  what if a company or even a seller did an interest check, gauged how popular it may be, take a risk and MAYBE get too many and sell the extras anyway, all the while protecting the customer and not asking for money up front. it might even create this concept called ethical business practices. crazy. could you imagine? but yeah, group buys, only way to do business.

[Rhienfo]

damn hear me out tho.  what if a company or even a seller did an interest check, gauged how popular it may be, take a risk and MAYBE get too many and sell the extras anyway, all the while protecting the customer and not asking for money up front. it might even create this concept called ethical business practices. crazy. could you imagine? but yeah, group buys, only way to do business.

I just never said that they were only way to business, like even in the quote it says "SOME INDIVIDUALS" so maybe stop trying to put words in my mouth. I said that there was a reason for group buys. I would love for every project to be in-stock and I literally said that vendors and larger businesses in this hobby should be doing gbs when they can, and not taking advantage of GBs but it's just not reasonable. Keyboard margins aren't that big, so even some vendors don't have liquid to do 100 unit runs of a mid range custom, individuals would definitely not, so they would have to take a loan (which they may not even be able to) and if something goes seriously wrong when manufacturing, they have could have to replace things and put them in the red and I do not want to see any individual go into debt that they can't pay and lose so much because of keyboards. There are valid criticisms of the GB model, and I agree with a lot of them, but saying that everyone can just do instock runs, it's just not feasible, it's more nuanced than that.

[elpepe21]

Watching people join the Mechs & Co. Discord

[CustomerSupport]

Thankfully, I seem to be a "lucky" one, as I only have one $200 set on the hook with M&Co. For me, that money was spent a long time ago, and isn't something I desperately need at the moment; that may not be the case for others. And yet, $200 is not an insignificant amount of money.

Shame on M&Co. for their sh*tty business practices and outright theft. If the set ever does arrive, that will be enough.

Whatever the state of the hobby was before this row, these bad actors have helped degrade it by either over-extending themselves, or practicing outright fraud.

[dvorcol]

On July 27 u/Cobertt posted a community update on Reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/15bl163/psa_mechs_co_transparency_update_next_steps/

Thanks to JonoColwell for posting this Reddit link in the [GB] GMK Regal thread.  Otherwise I never would have seen it.

[tjcaustin]

Well, I wasn't expecting this to be my first post in *checks notes* 6 years, but...

I had basically treated this and a few other GBs I got into at the beginning of the year like old times.  Send money, forget, be surprised when I get tracking.  So I was completely clueless when I got a refund about 15 minutes ago from Mechs & Co for my MW Hayastan order with the note "We don't have enough stock to fulfill your order".

Fifteen minutes of digging later, and ooof.

So, did they have the sets made and just not pay?  Or did the $ from Hayastan get redirected to other buys and if you went through them instead of one of the other vendors, is it good luck on the used market?

[Oni]

Perhaps there is some sliver of hope? I got an email earlier this afternoon stating that my WoB essentials order was cancelled by Mechs & Co and refunded. I did not pursue this on my own, nor did I do a chargeback as I used a debit card. I do not see the money in my bank account yet, but will update if this actually goes through or not. Mechs & Co still has my money from one other group buy, so who knows how many they will refund.

[evidentLEE]

Just received this email this morning.... I'm willing to pay cannon keys shipping, but I'm not giving M&C one more dime.

[kiyoboard]

Just received this email this morning.... I'm willing to pay cannon keys shipping, but I'm not giving M&C one more dime.
(Attachment Link)

Can you actually open that form? It doesn't seem to be working for me

[evidentLEE]

Just received this email this morning.... I'm willing to pay cannon keys shipping, but I'm not giving M&C one more dime.
(Attachment Link)

Can you actually open that form? It doesn't seem to be working for me

Mine didn't work either.

[Beesley]

There's an issue with that link, visit the subreddit and there's a post there with a working link

[Afresh]

Just received this email this morning.... I'm willing to pay cannon keys shipping, but I'm not giving M&C one more dime.
(Attachment Link)

Can you actually open that form? It doesn't seem to be working for me

Here you go: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe39q8DAEQYp6DwSx-W78cT-X2tW7jtdiwGcgwjcVkyKghsJA/viewform?pli=1

[evidentLEE]

Just received this email this morning.... I'm willing to pay cannon keys shipping, but I'm not giving M&C one more dime.
(Attachment Link)

Can you actually open that form? It doesn't seem to be working for me

Here you go: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe39q8DAEQYp6DwSx-W78cT-X2tW7jtdiwGcgwjcVkyKghsJA/viewform?pli=1

Thanks for posting this! 

[skulls]

If you reach out to Cannon Keys specifically they will confirm and also send you a working link. good luck.

[skulls]

Thankfully, I seem to be a "lucky" one, as I only have one $200 set on the hook with M&Co. For me, that money was spent a long time ago, and isn't something I desperately need at the moment; that may not be the case for others. And yet, $200 is not an insignificant amount of money.

Shame on M&Co. for their sh*tty business practices and outright theft. If the set ever does arrive, that will be enough.

Whatever the state of the hobby was before this row, these bad actors have helped degrade it by either over-extending themselves, or practicing outright fraud.

accurate and necessary... nature is healing.

[kiyoboard]

A while back they cancelled 2 of my orders, but today I got email from PayPal that they didn't complete the refund process.

[Oni]

A while back they cancelled 2 of my orders, but today I got email from PayPal that they didn't complete the refund process.

It's been a week since one of my orders was cancelled, and no refund has hit on my end either. I'm assuming they probably have no intention of actually refunding anybody, unless more time needs to be given for processing.

[Puddsy]

A while back they cancelled 2 of my orders, but today I got email from PayPal that they didn't complete the refund process.

It's been a week since one of my orders was cancelled, and no refund has hit on my end either. I'm assuming they probably have no intention of actually refunding anybody, unless more time needs to be given for processing.

i know a couple of people who have had refunds hit so it's probably a mix

[Morbii]

I had a refund hit, but it was for a single penny I couldn't get back while doing a dispute via Paypal, probably due to some weird rounding error.

[codecoffeecode]

I just watched the video that Taeha Types uploaded today with rmendis, a moderator at the MechMarket Discord. I think the video has interesting points that are informative for new people in the hobby as well folks that have been here for a while. I won't regurgitate every point (the video is an hour long), but I'll just highlight a couple of points that resonated with me:

rmendis brought up that minimum order quantities (MOQs) used to serve as a sort of "evolutionary mechanism" (his term) that could help weed out sets that were not popular enough to survive group buy. As more people (and more money) entered the hobby, some vendors or organizers simply bypassed ("bastardized", rmendis said) this weeding mechanism by just throwing money at the MOQ, and worrying about demand later. This practice delays the failure: if there isn't at least minimum demand a product now at a certain price, it's likely that there won't be minimum demand for product at a year or two later at a higher price.

But more importantly, rmendis brings up the idea of a more centralized and voluntary code of conduct or set of standards for vendors. I think something like that would be a great step forward for the hobby and a huge net positive for everyone. A standard of conduct, perhaps denoted by some sort of branding (something akin to B Corporation branding), could help customers distinguish between vendors that are willing to publicly commit to things like transparency, consistent communication, & responsible business practices, and those that are not interested in the scruples of such commitments.

[Rhienfo]

So, did they have the sets made and just not pay?  Or did the $ from Hayastan get redirected to other buys and if you went through them instead of one of the other vendors, is it good luck on the used market?

Sorry I missed this. It really depends, it seemed that the sets they paid for got made, but they couldn't accept them because the company had imploded at this point, so MW are going to sell them on their website. Obviously the sets that weren't paid for aren't being made, and for other companies they were working with like gmk idk, I'm theorising because I don't know everything but I would imagine that orders would get split across vendors if they were fully paid and manufactured, and the vendors would get refunded if the sets haven't been made but they have been fully paid/partially paid for (this may be why they have some money to refund people, as it seems that some people have been refunded according to people in the thread)

[involuntarysoul]

the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?

[skulls]

so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?

because poggers consume relentlessly and with maximum effort. stop participating and it goes away, then vendors will have to be like every single other shop on the planet and not pass the risk and failures on the customer. have you seen the reddit AIDS about this whole thing? they literally can't help themselves and will shill out another 300 bux if mechs and co asks them to. it is pathetic.

[Rhienfo]

the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?

where did you get this number from, not saying you're wrong but even with high moqs prices shouldn't be that low, it still costs something to manufacture and injection moulding is a costly process with a lot of waste (That doesn't excuse gmk pricing for the record, base kits are alright at higher moq but child kits are so overpriced, especially for the quality control which has dipped). I know more about keyboard pricing, and when looking at that even with a several thousand moq that's met the machining still costs a certian amount to machine due to factors like complexity and just simply the cost of raw materials, like the vega was unlimited and still costed around 300 for a reason.

because poggers consume relentlessly and with maximum effort. stop participating and it goes away, then vendors will have to be like every single other shop on the planet and not pass the risk and failures on the customer. have you seen the reddit AIDS about this whole thing? they literally can't help themselves and will shill out another 300 bux if mechs and co asks them to. it is pathetic.

I know you haven't checked reddit because most of the people commenting are completely against group buys and will never support one (also why call it aids? idk that's really weird to me). Also as I said before they are necessary for smaller vendors and individuals as they don't have the upfront capital (especially in a post covid hobby where already low vendor margins are even lower). This whole discussion is how we can make gbs safer to customers, which was the whole point of the taeha types video which I agree with pretty much all of the solutions that were discussed, and saying that we should only have instock products and phase out gbs, isn't productive and realistic at all.

[Puddsy]

the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?

where did you get this number from, not saying you're wrong but even with high moqs prices shouldn't be that low, it still costs something to manufacture and injection moulding is a costly process with a lot of waste (That doesn't excuse gmk pricing for the record, base kits are alright at higher moq but child kits are so overpriced, especially for the quality control which has dipped). I know more about keyboard pricing, and when looking at that even with a several thousand moq that's met the machining still costs a certian amount to machine due to factors like complexity and just simply the cost of raw materials, like the vega was unlimited and still costed around 300 for a reason.

mkultra sold their sets for "factory price" when they went under, at $67

which as the keyset designers among us are aware, is well below GMK wholesale price

[codecoffeecode]

I do have to say I agree (on this particular point) with Rhienfo: group buys aren't going anywhere. In the video, rmendis compared group buys to drugs: "Why don't drug addicts just stop taking drugs?" There's simply no incentive to change their model. It would mean having to invest their own money in products without upfront capital from customers.

Because group buys aren't going anywhere anytime soon, it's important to figure out how we can hold vendors to higher standards when they do run GBs. And I think designers and prospective customers can help to kickstart this process by making it a point to only work with vendors that are willing to commit to certain standards, including transparency around escrow (if any) for the funds collected, when payment is made to manufacturers, etc.

[Rhienfo]

Because group buys aren't going anywhere anytime soon, it's important to figure out how we can hold vendors to higher standards when they do run GBs. And I think designers and prospective customers can help to kickstart this process by making it a point to only work with vendors that are willing to commit to certain standards, including transparency around escrow (if any) for the funds collected, when payment is made to manufacturers, etc.

yeah this should be the priority. And while I do think they are necessary to some extent, I do think should be trying to minimize the amount of gbs run when possible (Companies like drop and kbdfans, who still do preorders and gbs sometimes should not be doing them period), but for now this should be the objective, to make the current systems safer before dealing with other things later.

I think we can come to a point where most vendors/businesses can do instock runs but the hobby is so unpredictable at this point and I think we will need to wait before everything stablises. At least this gives us time to make gbs safer for customers or at least vet vendors so that another mech&co doesn't happen in the future.

Just to clarify I am not defending group buys or any businesses that runs them. I am just clarifying why they are necessary to this hobby and why it isn't realistic just to make everyone run instock runs, especially at the moment.

mkultra sold their sets for "factory price" when they went under, at $67

which as the keyset designers among us are aware, is well below GMK wholesale price

Thanks puddsy, I had a feeling that $67 was way to low for what gmk was making them for but I haven't ever run a keyset so I needed clarification.

[break]

the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?

where did you get this number from, not saying you're wrong but even with high moqs prices shouldn't be that low, it still costs something to manufacture and injection moulding is a costly process with a lot of waste (That doesn't excuse gmk pricing for the record, base kits are alright at higher moq but child kits are so overpriced, especially for the quality control which has dipped). I know more about keyboard pricing, and when looking at that even with a several thousand moq that's met the machining still costs a certian amount to machine due to factors like complexity and just simply the cost of raw materials, like the vega was unlimited and still costed around 300 for a reason.

mkultra sold their sets for "factory price" when they went under, at $67

which as the keyset designers among us are aware, is well below GMK wholesale price

I disagree with the word "well" here, at least for a set selling 2000+ units in 2021.

[involuntarysoul]

mkultra sold their sets for "factory price" when they went under, at $67

which as the keyset designers among us are aware, is well below GMK wholesale price

$67 is what mkultra paid for each base kit, what do you mean by "well below wholesale price"?

[Puddsy]

the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?

where did you get this number from, not saying you're wrong but even with high moqs prices shouldn't be that low, it still costs something to manufacture and injection moulding is a costly process with a lot of waste (That doesn't excuse gmk pricing for the record, base kits are alright at higher moq but child kits are so overpriced, especially for the quality control which has dipped). I know more about keyboard pricing, and when looking at that even with a several thousand moq that's met the machining still costs a certian amount to machine due to factors like complexity and just simply the cost of raw materials, like the vega was unlimited and still costed around 300 for a reason.

mkultra sold their sets for "factory price" when they went under, at $67

which as the keyset designers among us are aware, is well below GMK wholesale price

I disagree with the word "well" here, at least for a set selling 2000+ units in 2021.

that's fair actually, first half of 2020 (went back and checked) numbers at that MOQ probably aren't super far off -- that's just before the plastics shortage really got going -- but i haven't really seen them go down that low except on sets with a 5k+ MOQ. frankly we should be glad they don't charge double

plus, i haven't looked at a GMK quote sheet in a fair bit anyway, i've mostly been out of the hobby since dark sky shipped, save for a couple of small discord groups and local meetups

[Rhienfo]

Another thing is that both the designer and the vendors mark up the price, assuming that both designer and vendor take a 50% markup (which is the average for a business) It's around 130, which is around what nord was being sold for. It's most likely lower for both (especially a designer's markup probably isn't 50%) and it's on a case by case basis (some designers have ran sets with no profit involved to get prices down) but I hope this clarifies a bit onto why keycap prices are a lot (if I'm wrong correct me, I have never ran a set so take this with a big grain of salt)

[Puddsy]

Another thing is that both the designer and the vendors mark up the price, assuming that both designer and vendor take a 50% markup (which is the average for a business) It's around 130, which is around what nord was being sold for. It's most likely lower for both (especially a designer's markup probably isn't 50%) and it's on a case by case basis (some designers have ran sets with no profit involved to get prices down) but I hope this clarifies a bit onto why keycap prices are a lot (if I'm wrong correct me, I have never ran a set so take this with a big grain of salt)

margins on keysets are rarely 50% but they have increased in recent years for sure. and many designers do not get anywhere close to 50 percent. depends on a lot of things, some could be getting that much.

but you're in the ballpark

[andreiborisov]

I think the community also needs help contacting another US vendor: Project Keyboard. There is no response from their support and all of their recent GMK GBs seem to be in limbo...

[cthalupa]

the whole point of GB is to try reach high MOQ and thus decrease the cost for the consumer, we now know from Nord, a 2000+ MOQ GMK cost only $67 for a base set, however vendors still charge $120+ for even high MOQ sets, so what is the point of GB again? Why do we take the risk without any reward?

There's a lot of costs that are not covered in that $67. You have to pay for the freight shipping of the kits (This got VERY expensive during COVID - I'm sure you saw all the news about ocean shipping being absurd, containers being hard to get space on, etc.), you have to pay for a place to hold the kits, you have to pay for someone to pick and pack orders, you have to pay someone to manage all of the inventory and the shipping status, etc. etc. etc. You have to pay for all of the not-set-specific business overhead, marketing, and all of that as well.

And then you still have to make enough money for it to be worth the time for the vendors and designers to actually put forth the effort. Even if you want to make an argument that design should be exclusively a passion project and designers shouldn't be making money (which I disagree with) it is not feasible for designers to handle self-fulfillment at the scale this hobby has grown to, and vendors are first and foremost businesses.

In-stock prices are still generally higher than group buy prices, so you pay more for minimizing risk and wait. But the bigger benefit, at least to me, is that consumers taking on risk means that we get to see things get created that never would have otherwise. If you think we would have such a wide diversity of sets (even just restricting it to sets that made MOQ without massive buyouts) in a purely in-stock world, I am 100% confident that you are very wrong. When you are designing for and deciding to carry an in-stock set you simply will not, on average, be willing to take the same level of risk that you would for a GB.

[Rhienfo]

margins on keysets are rarely 50% but they have increased in recent years for sure. and many designers do not get anywhere close to 50 percent. depends on a lot of things, some could be getting that much.

but you're in the ballpark

Yeah I know that designers specifically don't get that much, I'm sorry if it came across that way. I remember looking into it and seeing that. Weirdly enough I have seen at least one example of a designer getting a 50/50 split of profits apparently (there was a really weird reddit post with the red alert designer claiming that he received that much for it, with mech&co which is touchy, it got removed because it was a load of nothing, but I thought that was interesting enough to mention. Didn't know that vendors didn't get 50% as I'd imagine they would be the same as a regular business, I guess that's why extras were a lot more profitable to these vendors (if that's what you are saying, correct me if that's not what you were saying)

There's a lot of costs that are not covered in that $67. You have to pay for the freight shipping of the kits (This got VERY expensive during COVID - I'm sure you saw all the news about ocean shipping being absurd, containers being hard to get space on, etc.), you have to pay for a place to hold the kits, you have to pay for someone to pick and pack orders, you have to pay someone to manage all of the inventory and the shipping status, etc. etc. etc. You have to pay for all of the not-set-specific business overhead, marketing, and all of that as well.

And then you still have to make enough money for it to be worth the time for the vendors and designers to actually put forth the effort. Even if you want to make an argument that design should be exclusively a passion project and designers shouldn't be making money (which I disagree with) it is not feasible for designers to handle self-fulfillment at the scale this hobby has grown to, and vendors are first and foremost businesses.

Yeah that's something that I hadn't considered for some reason (I don't run keysets don't judge me too hard there ) yeah logistics is expensive, especially for international vendors since they come from Germany, on top of it having to be profitable. I guess that's why they banked on extras so much, as profit margins probably weren't that high.

[codecoffeecode]

I think the community also needs help contacting another US vendor: Project Keyboard. There is no response from their support and all of their recent GMK GBs seem to be in limbo...

Yeah, now that Quakemz is no longer affiliated with them, it seems there's no one left in the Discord that communicates on behalf of Project Keyboard.

I actually started avoiding PK as a vendor after watching the GMK Modern Ink GB thread: they displayed behavior that Hali brought up early in this thread:

At week three of the group buy, their base kit numbers were only about 1/5 of the MOQ:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114591.msg3087051#msg3087051

But then during the last week of the group buy, PK (or other vendors) appeared to have bought out the remaining 80%:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114591.msg3090493#msg3090493

Once I realized that they bought out the MOQ, I opted not to join the GB. After all, there should be plenty of extras, right?

Right?

[Rhienfo]

I think the community also needs help contacting another US vendor: Project Keyboard. There is no response from their support and all of their recent GMK GBs seem to be in limbo...

Yeah, now that Quakemz is no longer affiliated with them, it seems there's no one left in the Discord that communicates on behalf of Project Keyboard.

I actually started avoiding PK as a vendor after watching the GMK Modern Ink GB thread: they displayed behavior that Hali brought up early in this thread:

At week three of the group buy, their base kit numbers were only about 1/5 of the MOQ:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114591.msg3087051#msg3087051

But then during the last week of the group buy, PK (or other vendors) appeared to have bought out the remaining 80%:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114591.msg3090493#msg3090493

Once I realized that they bought out the MOQ, I opted not to join the GB. After all, there should be plenty of extras, right?

Right?

Yeah I've heard that project keyboard was a nightmare, popping in an out of sending stuff. It's no guarantee that you will get your orders, so I would recommend avoiding them and charging back if you can. I think they are a sinking ship like mech&co, seems likely so you should try to get out if you can.

[involuntarysoul]

But then during the last week of the group buy, PK (or other vendors) appeared to have bought out the remaining 80%:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114591.msg3090493#msg3090493

Once I realized that they bought out the MOQ, I opted not to join the GB. After all, there should be plenty of extras, right?

Right?

big assumption that they actually paid the invoice, in reality all they did was to keep the 100ish poor soul's GB payment for themselves

[Rhienfo]

big assumption that they actually paid the invoice, in reality all they did was to keep the 100ish poor soul's GB payment for themselves

I don't think he was implying that.

Semi related but considering that it will be hard to get in contact, now that discord comms are gone at this point (or at least according to codecoffeecode) The only other active way will be to go through their support, which of course can just be ignored. I have sent an email about the updates of gmk modern ink (I haven't bought the set, just know that is a set that is in production and hasn't seen good consistent updates, from both project keyboard and the runner. I'll notify when I can if they send a response.

I also would want to hear people who have sent them emails to see if they actually respond in a reasonable amount of time

[codecoffeecode]

big assumption that [Project Keyboard] actually paid the invoice [for GMK Modern Ink]

Oh, I don't assume they paid ****, but they did imply in the thread that the set would be produced despite not meeting the MOQ three weeks into the GB.

discord comms [for Project Keyboard] are gone at this point

I'm not a regular in that Discord, but I pop in every few months for updates. The PK Discord isn't locked or anything like that, but it just doesn't seem to have any official representative of PK to provide updates. I don't have any orders with them so I have not submitted any support tickets through their website.

[Rhienfo]

I'm not a regular in that Discord, but I pop in every few months for updates. The PK Discord isn't locked or anything like that, but it just doesn't seem to have any official representative of PK to provide updates. I don't have any orders with them so I have not submitted any support tickets through their website.

Oh yeah all of this is just speculation of course, I don't even think they have proper support tickets or whatever, the email I sent was through their contact page and it was just to see personally if would get support on a query that I would potentially have (especially on a project that doesn't have many updates), can't do it right now, but when I can I'll hop into the discord just see if regular updates are given or someone can mention it here as well if they are it in now.

[SwitchKeys]

Modern Ink is done and will ship out in November. I can't speak for PK unfortunately.

[Rhienfo]

Modern Ink is done and will ship out in November. I can't speak for PK unfortunately.

Thanks for saying that. The set was probably already paid for and I know there is a document that shows the current gmk queue, so you could probably check that for updates (I'll link it when I can). I sent that email just to see if they would respond specifically. But it's cool that at least modern ink is at least paid for.

[Puddsy]

Modern Ink is done and will ship out in November. I can't speak for PK unfortunately.

Thanks for saying that. The set was probably already paid for and I know there is a document that shows the current gmk queue, so you could probably check that for updates (I'll link it when I can). I sent that email just to see if they would respond specifically. But it's cool that at least modern ink is at least paid for.

That document isn't circulated by GMK iirc, so it would include sets that are "in the queue" but not paid for. Unless GMK has started circulating their queue, which would be a big change.

[Rhienfo]

That document isn't circulated by GMK iirc, so it would include sets that are "in the queue" but not paid for. Unless GMK has started circulating their queue, which would be a big change.

Oh yeah you're right, cause we know of the paid/unpaid stuff by Mech&Co from the original post. I haven't read it in a while so probably forgot about that. I seriously doubt things have changed but will check when I can just in case. Thanks

[Rhienfo]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/15ut6fi/psa_project_keyboard_mechs_co_chargebacks_and/?share_id=tqma9NHPn7lq5_df_SxtE&utm_content=2&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1

New PSA and update for mech&co. Recommend reading the full thing but I will tldr it for each vendor

Project Keyboard - distinct lack of communication from project keyboard, especially it's owner. No updates on orders nor have items shipped. Owner of project keyboard hasn't been active on platforms as well. Mods are telling people to avoid project keyboard, if you have an open order, know your consumer rights which includes a charge back. They don't have the same data on which sets are paid/unpaid like mechs&co.

Mechs&co - they have been disputing chargebacks after their shopify has been reopened, including on projects that were not paid for/cancelled. Have also ignored cannonkeys saying that the would help fufil GMK terror below by not charging back existing customers. Info on the possible steps in the thread and mods will continue to press mechs&co for disputes.

Aetrernus - File a chargeback for this vendor if you still can, as communications have stopped since march 2023, some group buys/orders they ran the manu hasn't been paid and orders haven't been placed. People have tried to step in to at least fufill orders but the owner has no intention of helping or fulfilling orders.

Also the communication thing for project keyboard seems to track as I have not had a response on the email I sent, I'll update this thread if it changes and they respond.

[skulls]

also why call (reddit) aids? idk that's really weird to me
...
suggesting the retail model, that has literally worked for other vendors, isn't productive and realistic at all.

lmao

[Rhienfo]

also why call (reddit) aids? idk that's really weird to me
...
suggesting the retail model, that has literally worked for other vendors, isn't productive and realistic at all.

lmao

Ok you actually need to shut up, you are putting words in my mouth to try and prove a stupid point. You lack actually no nuance and all and cannot for the life of me understand anything more than something black and white. Just because something worked for someone else doesn't mean that it will work for you, like that is the most obvious thing and you still can't comprehend that for some reason.

Being this reductive as I have said before doesn't help anyone, and acting like this helps precisely 0 people, cause while I think vendors should be doing in-stock runs, especially large ones (once everything has stabilised and cooled down cause vendors are not in a good situation) it is not reasonable to expect everyone to do instock, as I have explained several times at this point.

I agree that we should be leaning in to more instock orders but at the end of the day 100% of projects will not be Instock, and acting like that can be is stupid. You can choose not to join gbs (I personally will be only joining one more keyboard gb from a person whose getting it manufactured by geon, though If I ever join a keycap gb it will be through daily clack who I trust) and that's fine, but just be reasonable about this, please.

[codecoffeecode]

More bad vendor/manufacturing news 

Linking the Bias factory incident document as well: https://baionlenja.notion.site/Bias-factory-incident-9e4489b9a4e14b2dbb05038138ebc5a9

I do have to say I'm disappointed that the manufacturer wasn't named in the document, which clearly outlines extortionate behavior. If this manufacturer has been sending threats to Baionlenja, they should name them and send their information to authorities; why allow the manufacturer to continue business as usual with no heat, allowing the next unsuspecting member of the hobby to be scammed?

[Rhienfo]

Also want to make a post about Noxary since that is related to the topic, if you don't know he was an maker who has a bunch of outstanding gbs werent fufilled. The person running it Xondat, ghosted not giving any comms and even privated his spotify when someone on the discord found it (however I do feel it's understandable if he had his real name/following people who weren't involved in order to hide them)

He released an update saying that refunds will be issued for all outstanding gbs except the xrf and instock orders.

Even with the refunds. I would still recommended to chargeback if you can just in case he doesn't follow through with what they said. I have suspcions that he may not have the money (which would total around of a bit under 500 us grand) espically since he has bought luxury items like a porsche 911. If you are waiting for anything that Xondat said that he would ship, just make sure you have your consumer protections which include chargebacks. Stay safe everyone.

Image of the message.