Author Topic: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21  (Read 26708 times)

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Offline Owl

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Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #50 on: Thu, 10 June 2021, 09:32:56 »
based on all of the feedback I received and my own personal thoughts, the mod gray and the alphas gray have been approved. I have requested a second sample of the accent blue, again, based on overwhelming feedback as well as my own personal feelings. This has happened recently so it may be awhile before I get those. I want to thank everyone for their patience as well as their participation and feedback on this process. This is always the hardest part of any set it seems and working with the community and its designers has given me tremendous knowledge and confidence that my first set and contribution to the hobby will be to standards. I will continue to provide updates on the colors until the overwhelming majority, and myself, are happy with the results!
While I understand the sentiment… gathering feedback from people that 1. Might not have the best calibrated screen, 2. Have the correct idea of what the colour should look like irl. It gives me pause to trust your judgment when there have been other sets that actually use colour science to verify that samples GMK is providing is the correct RAL to Pantone.

Project Keyboard and Omnitype contracted the same person that has been in hobby for several years and understands the ins and outs

This can turn out like Shoko… where it turned out well, or it can turn out like Necro… and we know what happened there

I certainly understand your worry as there have been a lot of poorly matched sets in the hobby recently and before.

My process from the beginning was to match everything from the Physical Pantone chips that I had in hand at the time of developing the IC. Decisions about the renders, and now samples, are being made executively by myself, from those chips, but with the input of my customers because it is ultimately their expectations that I am trying to meet. After all they are the ones that will be mad when the keycaps do not look like what they thought they were going to look like, which is why their feedback BEFORE approval is crucial to me to not only determine if I set the correct expectations but if I am also meeting them. It's about being a designer that is willing to work with their customers and fix something BEFORE it ships.

When a set is a dissapointment it isn't because people failed to match the samples to the Chips. GMK already uses spectrophotometers, which are far more accurate and to-standard than anything a first, second, or third time keycap designer could afford. They are so confident in their technology that GMK will actually tell you to provide them with a different chip or Pantone altogether if the sample is to undergo more than their first attempt. (and this is a very common phase where a designer makes a horrible decision). I am doing everything I can to be transparent about my process, my product, and even my finances, so that people are as educated as possible on what they were buying into and what they can expect. I am not making decisions under the table about this product that my customers will not know about. And if I see an opportunity to make a change mid process that will better meet peoples expectations, then it will be pitched, talked about, and voted on in a public forum with my customers.

Sets go wrong when expectations are not set and met correctly. I do not want to be the designer that says, "well the renders are just renders. You shouldn't expect more" or "The chips match so sorry don't know what to tell you GMK looked at it with their magic eyes" or "You shouldn't have used a ****ty gaming monitor to look at color chips or a render, boo hoo"

These are all slaps to the face of customers who had an idea that I put in their head for MONTHS that paid MONEY for that idea. Those are not a good customer experiences. Yes, me and GMK are going to make sure the colors are accurate to the Pantones that I chose from the very beginning. But another 20%-40% of the decision is based off of the feedback and how my customers feel about the product that they purchased. And I will not ship it until an Overwhelming majority are happy with physical samples that they can expect to receive. I will have my lead vendor call GMK, tell them to unplug their machine, and use the money that I made off of Rainy Day to completely redo if it means an overwhelming majority of my customers get what they paid for. Simple as that. And hell, maybe my customers just want it to ship even if they hate it lol. Who knows. But my customers have a voice in this process. I will do all of the work and information gathering so that my customers can make easy and impactful decisions about the product that THEY paid for if they feel that I am not doing it justice.

I am a first time designer, every phase is a new one to me and a challenge. But I educate myself and I will NOT let my products be a joke. And this isn't a defensive stance. There is a LOT of trash floating in this community right now. Trash that has cast doubt and pause in you and a lot of people which is justified. I just want people to feel confident and see evidence that I firmly stand behind my designs and will make it right BEFORE it's wrong.

Offline Starston3

  • Posts: 249
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Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #51 on: Thu, 10 June 2021, 20:46:02 »
based on all of the feedback I received and my own personal thoughts, the mod gray and the alphas gray have been approved. I have requested a second sample of the accent blue, again, based on overwhelming feedback as well as my own personal feelings. This has happened recently so it may be awhile before I get those. I want to thank everyone for their patience as well as their participation and feedback on this process. This is always the hardest part of any set it seems and working with the community and its designers has given me tremendous knowledge and confidence that my first set and contribution to the hobby will be to standards. I will continue to provide updates on the colors until the overwhelming majority, and myself, are happy with the results!
While I understand the sentiment… gathering feedback from people that 1. Might not have the best calibrated screen, 2. Have the correct idea of what the colour should look like irl. It gives me pause to trust your judgment when there have been other sets that actually use colour science to verify that samples GMK is providing is the correct RAL to Pantone.

Project Keyboard and Omnitype contracted the same person that has been in hobby for several years and understands the ins and outs

This can turn out like Shoko… where it turned out well, or it can turn out like Necro… and we know what happened there

I certainly understand your worry as there have been a lot of poorly matched sets in the hobby recently and before.

My process from the beginning was to match everything from the Physical Pantone chips that I had in hand at the time of developing the IC. Decisions about the renders, and now samples, are being made executively by myself, from those chips, but with the input of my customers because it is ultimately their expectations that I am trying to meet. After all they are the ones that will be mad when the keycaps do not look like what they thought they were going to look like, which is why their feedback BEFORE approval is crucial to me to not only determine if I set the correct expectations but if I am also meeting them. It's about being a designer that is willing to work with their customers and fix so.

When a set is a dissapointment it isn't because people failed to match the samples to the Chips. GMK already uses spectrophotometers, which are far more accurate and to-standard than anything a first, second, or third time keycap designer could afford. They are so confident in their technology that GMK will actually tell you to provide them with a different chip or Pantone altogether if the sample is to undergo more than their first attempt. (and this is a very common phase where a designer makes a horrible decision). I am doing everything I can to be transparent about my process, my product, and even my finances, so that people are as educated as possible on what they were buying into and what they can expect. I am not making decisions under the table about this product that my customers will not know about. And if I see an opportunity to make a change mid process that will better meet peoples expectations, then it will be pitched, talked about, and voted on in a public forum with my customers.

Sets go wrong when expectations are not set and met correctly. I do not want to be the designer that says, "well the renders are just renders. You shouldn't expect more" or "The chips match so sorry don't know what to tell you GMK looked at it with their magic eyes" or "You shouldn't have used a ****ty gaming monitor to look at color chips or a render, boo hoo"

These are all slaps to the face of customers who had an idea that I put in their head for MONTHS that paid MONEY for that idea. Those are not a good customer experiences. Yes, me and GMK are going to make sure the colors are accurate to the Pantones that I chose from the very beginning. But another 20%-40% of the decision is based off of the feedback and how my customers feel about the product that they purchased. And I will not ship it until an Overwhelming majority are happy with physical samples that they can expect to receive. I will have my lead vendor call GMK, tell them to unplug their machine, and use the money that I made off of Rainy Day to completely redo if it means an overwhelming majority of my customers get what they paid for. Simple as that. And hell, maybe my customers just want it to ship even if they hate it lol. Who knows. But my customers have a voice in this process. I will do all of the work and information gathering so that my customers can make easy and impactful decisions about the product that THEY paid for if they feel that I am not doing it justice.

I am a first time designer, every phase is a new one to me and a challenge. But I educate myself and I will NOT let my products be a joke. And this isn't a defensive stance. There is a LOT of trash floating in this community right now. Trash that has cast doubt and pause in you and a lot of people which is justified. I just want people to feel confident and see evidence that I firmly stand behind my designs and will make it right BEFORE it's wrong.

Cool I suppose... it's your set. I was just suggesting a better way of gathering "feedback." Everyone perceives colour differently, had different types of lighting, and has differently calibrated screens, etc..

GMK actually does not do any colour science or use spectrophotometer in house to make sure the samples they are sending out are correct. This has been verified by vendors and Andy himself. There is a reason GMK Dracula had to go through 6 different rounds of samples to get the correct mod colour to be approved.

This is why I suggested reaching out to an actual specialist expert in the hobby that does have the proper tools. This is being set as a standard, that I suggest more people follow.

This is one example of their work for MoDo Light: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_YufoX8ItO8WI5il5A5fclqLJheNe9fcj7IUWVMLt_g/edit#heading=h.reeld1ty0pt2

There is no bias, there is no feedback, no suggestion... just plain data saying how close or apart the sample from GMK is to the colour wanted for the set.
« Last Edit: Thu, 10 June 2021, 20:50:41 by Starston3 »

Offline Owl

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Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 10 June 2021, 21:15:45 »
based on all of the feedback I received and my own personal thoughts, the mod gray and the alphas gray have been approved. I have requested a second sample of the accent blue, again, based on overwhelming feedback as well as my own personal feelings. This has happened recently so it may be awhile before I get those. I want to thank everyone for their patience as well as their participation and feedback on this process. This is always the hardest part of any set it seems and working with the community and its designers has given me tremendous knowledge and confidence that my first set and contribution to the hobby will be to standards. I will continue to provide updates on the colors until the overwhelming majority, and myself, are happy with the results!
While I understand the sentiment… gathering feedback from people that 1. Might not have the best calibrated screen, 2. Have the correct idea of what the colour should look like irl. It gives me pause to trust your judgment when there have been other sets that actually use colour science to verify that samples GMK is providing is the correct RAL to Pantone.

Project Keyboard and Omnitype contracted the same person that has been in hobby for several years and understands the ins and outs

This can turn out like Shoko… where it turned out well, or it can turn out like Necro… and we know what happened there

I certainly understand your worry as there have been a lot of poorly matched sets in the hobby recently and before.

My process from the beginning was to match everything from the Physical Pantone chips that I had in hand at the time of developing the IC. Decisions about the renders, and now samples, are being made executively by myself, from those chips, but with the input of my customers because it is ultimately their expectations that I am trying to meet. After all they are the ones that will be mad when the keycaps do not look like what they thought they were going to look like, which is why their feedback BEFORE approval is crucial to me to not only determine if I set the correct expectations but if I am also meeting them. It's about being a designer that is willing to work with their customers and fix so.

When a set is a dissapointment it isn't because people failed to match the samples to the Chips. GMK already uses spectrophotometers, which are far more accurate and to-standard than anything a first, second, or third time keycap designer could afford. They are so confident in their technology that GMK will actually tell you to provide them with a different chip or Pantone altogether if the sample is to undergo more than their first attempt. (and this is a very common phase where a designer makes a horrible decision). I am doing everything I can to be transparent about my process, my product, and even my finances, so that people are as educated as possible on what they were buying into and what they can expect. I am not making decisions under the table about this product that my customers will not know about. And if I see an opportunity to make a change mid process that will better meet peoples expectations, then it will be pitched, talked about, and voted on in a public forum with my customers.

Sets go wrong when expectations are not set and met correctly. I do not want to be the designer that says, "well the renders are just renders. You shouldn't expect more" or "The chips match so sorry don't know what to tell you GMK looked at it with their magic eyes" or "You shouldn't have used a ****ty gaming monitor to look at color chips or a render, boo hoo"

These are all slaps to the face of customers who had an idea that I put in their head for MONTHS that paid MONEY for that idea. Those are not a good customer experiences. Yes, me and GMK are going to make sure the colors are accurate to the Pantones that I chose from the very beginning. But another 20%-40% of the decision is based off of the feedback and how my customers feel about the product that they purchased. And I will not ship it until an Overwhelming majority are happy with physical samples that they can expect to receive. I will have my lead vendor call GMK, tell them to unplug their machine, and use the money that I made off of Rainy Day to completely redo if it means an overwhelming majority of my customers get what they paid for. Simple as that. And hell, maybe my customers just want it to ship even if they hate it lol. Who knows. But my customers have a voice in this process. I will do all of the work and information gathering so that my customers can make easy and impactful decisions about the product that THEY paid for if they feel that I am not doing it justice.

I am a first time designer, every phase is a new one to me and a challenge. But I educate myself and I will NOT let my products be a joke. And this isn't a defensive stance. There is a LOT of trash floating in this community right now. Trash that has cast doubt and pause in you and a lot of people which is justified. I just want people to feel confident and see evidence that I firmly stand behind my designs and will make it right BEFORE it's wrong.

Cool I suppose... it's your set. I was just suggesting a better way of gathering "feedback." Everyone perceives colour differently, had different types of lighting, and has differently calibrated screens, etc..

GMK actually does not do any colour science or use spectrophotometer in house to make sure the samples they are sending out are correct. This has been verified by vendors and Andy himself. There is a reason GMK Dracula had to go through 6 different rounds of samples to get the correct mod colour to be approved.

This is why I suggested reaching out to an actual specialist expert in the hobby that does have the proper tools. This is being set as a standard, that I suggest more people follow.

This is one example of their work for MoDo Light: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_YufoX8ItO8WI5il5A5fclqLJheNe9fcj7IUWVMLt_g/edit#heading=h.reeld1ty0pt2

There is no bias, there is no feedback, no suggestion... just plain data saying how close or apart the sample from GMK is to the colour wanted for the set.

Yeah I will definitely try to get in touch with someone in regards to that. And if I need to back peddle the grays then that's what I will do. Also I suppose I got the wrong information regarding GMK's process. Wouldn't be the first time, this is why I have been documenting everything so far.

The point I am trying to make is that even if the samples match the chips exactly 100%, people will still be upset that they didn't get what they "expected". Which is why that data is more important to me right now so I can decide what direction I need to go before whipping out the spectrometer and getting a thumbs up from my customers on numbers that neither confirm nor deny what it is that they are seeing.

Color accuracy relies on more than just material analysis. Colors can look wildly different next to eachother and give a very different feeling if there is even slight difference which will cause the whole experience not to match the initial reaction. This has been a point that every great designer in our community has pointed out that I have taken into consideration through every step of the proccess.

Offline kiyoboard

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Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #53 on: Thu, 10 June 2021, 21:21:14 »
based on all of the feedback I received and my own personal thoughts, the mod gray and the alphas gray have been approved. I have requested a second sample of the accent blue, again, based on overwhelming feedback as well as my own personal feelings. This has happened recently so it may be awhile before I get those. I want to thank everyone for their patience as well as their participation and feedback on this process. This is always the hardest part of any set it seems and working with the community and its designers has given me tremendous knowledge and confidence that my first set and contribution to the hobby will be to standards. I will continue to provide updates on the colors until the overwhelming majority, and myself, are happy with the results!
While I understand the sentiment… gathering feedback from people that 1. Might not have the best calibrated screen, 2. Have the correct idea of what the colour should look like irl. It gives me pause to trust your judgment when there have been other sets that actually use colour science to verify that samples GMK is providing is the correct RAL to Pantone.

Project Keyboard and Omnitype contracted the same person that has been in hobby for several years and understands the ins and outs

This can turn out like Shoko… where it turned out well, or it can turn out like Necro… and we know what happened there

I certainly understand your worry as there have been a lot of poorly matched sets in the hobby recently and before.

My process from the beginning was to match everything from the Physical Pantone chips that I had in hand at the time of developing the IC. Decisions about the renders, and now samples, are being made executively by myself, from those chips, but with the input of my customers because it is ultimately their expectations that I am trying to meet. After all they are the ones that will be mad when the keycaps do not look like what they thought they were going to look like, which is why their feedback BEFORE approval is crucial to me to not only determine if I set the correct expectations but if I am also meeting them. It's about being a designer that is willing to work with their customers and fix something BEFORE it ships.

When a set is a dissapointment it isn't because people failed to match the samples to the Chips. GMK already uses spectrophotometers, which are far more accurate and to-standard than anything a first, second, or third time keycap designer could afford. They are so confident in their technology that GMK will actually tell you to provide them with a different chip or Pantone altogether if the sample is to undergo more than their first attempt. (and this is a very common phase where a designer makes a horrible decision). I am doing everything I can to be transparent about my process, my product, and even my finances, so that people are as educated as possible on what they were buying into and what they can expect. I am not making decisions under the table about this product that my customers will not know about. And if I see an opportunity to make a change mid process that will better meet peoples expectations, then it will be pitched, talked about, and voted on in a public forum with my customers.

Sets go wrong when expectations are not set and met correctly. I do not want to be the designer that says, "well the renders are just renders. You shouldn't expect more" or "The chips match so sorry don't know what to tell you GMK looked at it with their magic eyes" or "You shouldn't have used a ****ty gaming monitor to look at color chips or a render, boo hoo"

These are all slaps to the face of customers who had an idea that I put in their head for MONTHS that paid MONEY for that idea. Those are not a good customer experiences. Yes, me and GMK are going to make sure the colors are accurate to the Pantones that I chose from the very beginning. But another 20%-40% of the decision is based off of the feedback and how my customers feel about the product that they purchased. And I will not ship it until an Overwhelming majority are happy with physical samples that they can expect to receive. I will have my lead vendor call GMK, tell them to unplug their machine, and use the money that I made off of Rainy Day to completely redo if it means an overwhelming majority of my customers get what they paid for. Simple as that. And hell, maybe my customers just want it to ship even if they hate it lol. Who knows. But my customers have a voice in this process. I will do all of the work and information gathering so that my customers can make easy and impactful decisions about the product that THEY paid for if they feel that I am not doing it justice.

I am a first time designer, every phase is a new one to me and a challenge. But I educate myself and I will NOT let my products be a joke. And this isn't a defensive stance. There is a LOT of trash floating in this community right now. Trash that has cast doubt and pause in you and a lot of people which is justified. I just want people to feel confident and see evidence that I firmly stand behind my designs and will make it right BEFORE it's wrong.

First of all, I am in the GB since I really like the renders after checking it on multiple different screens, and looking forward to getting the set :) But, I also kinda agree with Starston here. I am not sure if GMK matching the colors is correct information. Since if that was the case, then there wouldn't be any back and forth between designers and GMK. Designers would just give the pantone chips and GMK would do the rest. Can you tell us where you got that information that GMK does the matching?

I think it is really nice that you want to inform your customers about the updates, issues etc. but asking people to do the job that designer supposed to do, using tools that are not suited for the job might hurt you in the long run. In my case, I have two monitors next to each other and when I look at the renders and photos, they literally show different colors. So, needless to say I didn't fill the feedback form since any information that I give is going to be based on bunch of subjective thing.

Offline Owl

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Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #54 on: Thu, 10 June 2021, 21:39:13 »
based on all of the feedback I received and my own personal thoughts, the mod gray and the alphas gray have been approved. I have requested a second sample of the accent blue, again, based on overwhelming feedback as well as my own personal feelings. This has happened recently so it may be awhile before I get those. I want to thank everyone for their patience as well as their participation and feedback on this process. This is always the hardest part of any set it seems and working with the community and its designers has given me tremendous knowledge and confidence that my first set and contribution to the hobby will be to standards. I will continue to provide updates on the colors until the overwhelming majority, and myself, are happy with the results!
While I understand the sentiment… gathering feedback from people that 1. Might not have the best calibrated screen, 2. Have the correct idea of what the colour should look like irl. It gives me pause to trust your judgment when there have been other sets that actually use colour science to verify that samples GMK is providing is the correct RAL to Pantone.

Project Keyboard and Omnitype contracted the same person that has been in hobby for several years and understands the ins and outs

This can turn out like Shoko… where it turned out well, or it can turn out like Necro… and we know what happened there

I certainly understand your worry as there have been a lot of poorly matched sets in the hobby recently and before.

My process from the beginning was to match everything from the Physical Pantone chips that I had in hand at the time of developing the IC. Decisions about the renders, and now samples, are being made executively by myself, from those chips, but with the input of my customers because it is ultimately their expectations that I am trying to meet. After all they are the ones that will be mad when the keycaps do not look like what they thought they were going to look like, which is why their feedback BEFORE approval is crucial to me to not only determine if I set the correct expectations but if I am also meeting them. It's about being a designer that is willing to work with their customers and fix something BEFORE it ships.

When a set is a dissapointment it isn't because people failed to match the samples to the Chips. GMK already uses spectrophotometers, which are far more accurate and to-standard than anything a first, second, or third time keycap designer could afford. They are so confident in their technology that GMK will actually tell you to provide them with a different chip or Pantone altogether if the sample is to undergo more than their first attempt. (and this is a very common phase where a designer makes a horrible decision). I am doing everything I can to be transparent about my process, my product, and even my finances, so that people are as educated as possible on what they were buying into and what they can expect. I am not making decisions under the table about this product that my customers will not know about. And if I see an opportunity to make a change mid process that will better meet peoples expectations, then it will be pitched, talked about, and voted on in a public forum with my customers.

Sets go wrong when expectations are not set and met correctly. I do not want to be the designer that says, "well the renders are just renders. You shouldn't expect more" or "The chips match so sorry don't know what to tell you GMK looked at it with their magic eyes" or "You shouldn't have used a ****ty gaming monitor to look at color chips or a render, boo hoo"

These are all slaps to the face of customers who had an idea that I put in their head for MONTHS that paid MONEY for that idea. Those are not a good customer experiences. Yes, me and GMK are going to make sure the colors are accurate to the Pantones that I chose from the very beginning. But another 20%-40% of the decision is based off of the feedback and how my customers feel about the product that they purchased. And I will not ship it until an Overwhelming majority are happy with physical samples that they can expect to receive. I will have my lead vendor call GMK, tell them to unplug their machine, and use the money that I made off of Rainy Day to completely redo if it means an overwhelming majority of my customers get what they paid for. Simple as that. And hell, maybe my customers just want it to ship even if they hate it lol. Who knows. But my customers have a voice in this process. I will do all of the work and information gathering so that my customers can make easy and impactful decisions about the product that THEY paid for if they feel that I am not doing it justice.

I am a first time designer, every phase is a new one to me and a challenge. But I educate myself and I will NOT let my products be a joke. And this isn't a defensive stance. There is a LOT of trash floating in this community right now. Trash that has cast doubt and pause in you and a lot of people which is justified. I just want people to feel confident and see evidence that I firmly stand behind my designs and will make it right BEFORE it's wrong.

First of all, I am in the GB since I really like the renders after checking it on multiple different screens, and looking forward to getting the set :) But, I also kinda agree with Starston here. I am not sure if GMK matching the colors is correct information. Since if that was the case, then there wouldn't be any back and forth between designers and GMK. Designers would just give the pantone chips and GMK would do the rest. Can you tell us where you got that information that GMK does the matching?

I think it is really nice that you want to inform your customers about the updates, issues etc. but asking people to do the job that designer supposed to do, using tools that are not suited for the job might hurt you in the long run. In my case, I have two monitors next to each other and when I look at the renders and photos, they literally show different colors. So, needless to say I didn't fill the feedback form since any information that I give is going to be based on bunch of subjective thing.


As far as the information goes, it was partially my fault for interpreting it that way. Basically I was told that GMK "matches to samples perfectly" and will "ask designers to give them a new Pantone all together if the designer wants a redo of the color". I interpreted this as, they must being using material analysis. I am glad Startson informed me that that was incorrect as that impacts how I will be speaking with GMK, and what tone I will be using with them, going forward.

I would never ask my customers to do my job for me. I am simply trying to gauge, to the best of my ability, their impression of what I have so far and if it meets their expectations and, at the very least, gives them the same impressions as the material presented in the IC. Yes, I could absolve myself of disappointing customers and say that I had pictures of the Pantones in the IC and GB and get it matched exactly and just tell people that if they don't like it then they should have bought a better monitor lol. Which isn't necessarily a bad route for a designer to take. They are doing their due dilligance. But I wanted to take it a step further and catch the feedback before the set ships and see where I might need to make a change.

Roughly 40% of the people that gave feedback in the form said that the blue was off. Now I could run spectro on it and come back and say, "yeah it's roughly 99.99% accurate with a virtually non-existent delta" and I gaurantee at least 50% of those 40% would be disapointed. Scaled up to the sales that Rainy Day saw, thats potentially 400-700 people that would not be happy with the blue in their set. It would then be up to me to decided if I should pick a new color and go through the process over again until people are happy. This is a rare occurrence but it does happen.

I am not undermining the value of material analysis. And I am glad it was brought to my attention as I will be reaching out to use it. But I think it is a mistake to undermine the value of this initial feedback that I collected so that I can make sure that my process for setting expectations for my product from the very beginning was done correctly.

Offline kiyoboard

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Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #55 on: Thu, 10 June 2021, 22:47:09 »
based on all of the feedback I received and my own personal thoughts, the mod gray and the alphas gray have been approved. I have requested a second sample of the accent blue, again, based on overwhelming feedback as well as my own personal feelings. This has happened recently so it may be awhile before I get those. I want to thank everyone for their patience as well as their participation and feedback on this process. This is always the hardest part of any set it seems and working with the community and its designers has given me tremendous knowledge and confidence that my first set and contribution to the hobby will be to standards. I will continue to provide updates on the colors until the overwhelming majority, and myself, are happy with the results!
While I understand the sentiment… gathering feedback from people that 1. Might not have the best calibrated screen, 2. Have the correct idea of what the colour should look like irl. It gives me pause to trust your judgment when there have been other sets that actually use colour science to verify that samples GMK is providing is the correct RAL to Pantone.

Project Keyboard and Omnitype contracted the same person that has been in hobby for several years and understands the ins and outs

This can turn out like Shoko… where it turned out well, or it can turn out like Necro… and we know what happened there

I certainly understand your worry as there have been a lot of poorly matched sets in the hobby recently and before.

My process from the beginning was to match everything from the Physical Pantone chips that I had in hand at the time of developing the IC. Decisions about the renders, and now samples, are being made executively by myself, from those chips, but with the input of my customers because it is ultimately their expectations that I am trying to meet. After all they are the ones that will be mad when the keycaps do not look like what they thought they were going to look like, which is why their feedback BEFORE approval is crucial to me to not only determine if I set the correct expectations but if I am also meeting them. It's about being a designer that is willing to work with their customers and fix something BEFORE it ships.

When a set is a dissapointment it isn't because people failed to match the samples to the Chips. GMK already uses spectrophotometers, which are far more accurate and to-standard than anything a first, second, or third time keycap designer could afford. They are so confident in their technology that GMK will actually tell you to provide them with a different chip or Pantone altogether if the sample is to undergo more than their first attempt. (and this is a very common phase where a designer makes a horrible decision). I am doing everything I can to be transparent about my process, my product, and even my finances, so that people are as educated as possible on what they were buying into and what they can expect. I am not making decisions under the table about this product that my customers will not know about. And if I see an opportunity to make a change mid process that will better meet peoples expectations, then it will be pitched, talked about, and voted on in a public forum with my customers.

Sets go wrong when expectations are not set and met correctly. I do not want to be the designer that says, "well the renders are just renders. You shouldn't expect more" or "The chips match so sorry don't know what to tell you GMK looked at it with their magic eyes" or "You shouldn't have used a ****ty gaming monitor to look at color chips or a render, boo hoo"

These are all slaps to the face of customers who had an idea that I put in their head for MONTHS that paid MONEY for that idea. Those are not a good customer experiences. Yes, me and GMK are going to make sure the colors are accurate to the Pantones that I chose from the very beginning. But another 20%-40% of the decision is based off of the feedback and how my customers feel about the product that they purchased. And I will not ship it until an Overwhelming majority are happy with physical samples that they can expect to receive. I will have my lead vendor call GMK, tell them to unplug their machine, and use the money that I made off of Rainy Day to completely redo if it means an overwhelming majority of my customers get what they paid for. Simple as that. And hell, maybe my customers just want it to ship even if they hate it lol. Who knows. But my customers have a voice in this process. I will do all of the work and information gathering so that my customers can make easy and impactful decisions about the product that THEY paid for if they feel that I am not doing it justice.

I am a first time designer, every phase is a new one to me and a challenge. But I educate myself and I will NOT let my products be a joke. And this isn't a defensive stance. There is a LOT of trash floating in this community right now. Trash that has cast doubt and pause in you and a lot of people which is justified. I just want people to feel confident and see evidence that I firmly stand behind my designs and will make it right BEFORE it's wrong.

First of all, I am in the GB since I really like the renders after checking it on multiple different screens, and looking forward to getting the set :) But, I also kinda agree with Starston here. I am not sure if GMK matching the colors is correct information. Since if that was the case, then there wouldn't be any back and forth between designers and GMK. Designers would just give the pantone chips and GMK would do the rest. Can you tell us where you got that information that GMK does the matching?

I think it is really nice that you want to inform your customers about the updates, issues etc. but asking people to do the job that designer supposed to do, using tools that are not suited for the job might hurt you in the long run. In my case, I have two monitors next to each other and when I look at the renders and photos, they literally show different colors. So, needless to say I didn't fill the feedback form since any information that I give is going to be based on bunch of subjective thing.


As far as the information goes, it was partially my fault for interpreting it that way. Basically I was told that GMK "matches to samples perfectly" and will "ask designers to give them a new Pantone all together if the designer wants a redo of the color". I interpreted this as, they must being using material analysis. I am glad Startson informed me that that was incorrect as that impacts how I will be speaking with GMK, and what tone I will be using with them, going forward.

I would never ask my customers to do my job for me. I am simply trying to gauge, to the best of my ability, their impression of what I have so far and if it meets their expectations and, at the very least, gives them the same impressions as the material presented in the IC. Yes, I could absolve myself of disappointing customers and say that I had pictures of the Pantones in the IC and GB and get it matched exactly and just tell people that if they don't like it then they should have bought a better monitor lol. Which isn't necessarily a bad route for a designer to take. They are doing their due dilligance. But I wanted to take it a step further and catch the feedback before the set ships and see where I might need to make a change.

Roughly 40% of the people that gave feedback in the form said that the blue was off. Now I could run spectro on it and come back and say, "yeah it's roughly 99.99% accurate with a virtually non-existent delta" and I gaurantee at least 50% of those 40% would be disapointed. Scaled up to the sales that Rainy Day saw, thats potentially 400-700 people that would not be happy with the blue in their set. It would then be up to me to decided if I should pick a new color and go through the process over again until people are happy. This is a rare occurrence but it does happen.

I am not undermining the value of material analysis. And I am glad it was brought to my attention as I will be reaching out to use it. But I think it is a mistake to undermine the value of this initial feedback that I collected so that I can make sure that my process for setting expectations for my product from the very beginning was done correctly.

Based on the photos blue doesn't seem to match the pantone in my opinion as well. But my point was that you shouldn't put your faith in public opinion (or even to yourself), and put your faith in the data. Even in an unlimited open keyboard GB, as soon as the GB closes, people end up wanting to change their colors :) So, they might look at the photos you took a little bit, and decide that they like or don't like it based on what they see in their screen. But a year from now on, once they get their set, there is no guarantee that they will have the same reaction.

For this GB, you made something very nice and announced the pantones, and have the chips for them already and people bought it based on that. You mention managing expectation, but expectation at this stage is keycaps that are matching the pantones. So not sure why public opinion is required. Only thing that is required is to have keycaps matching the pantones based on color science.

You said "But I wanted to take it a step further and catch the feedback before the set ships and see where I might need to make a change.". Lets say that you have samples that are 100% matching to the pantone chips based on the color science, then you asked for public opinion and got feedback that 90% of the people saying that they are not happy with the color. I would argue that you still shouldn't change the pantone since there is rest of the people who got the set based on the initial picked pantones. So, in my opinion, there is nothing to change here, let alone changing stuff based on subjective opinions.

Tl;dr
First of all, I have never run keycap GB, so in the end it is of course your decision how you want to handle it. I am just having hard time understanding how the feedback is going to be any use to you. I don't think it is managing expectation, as there is only one expectation here to have keycaps matching to pantones. There are only two results based on the feedback: either you change the pantone or you don't change the pantone. If you change the pantones based on extremely subjective
and partial(since not everyone is going to fill the form) feedback, then that is simply wrong due to many reasons. If you are not going to change the pantones, then there is no point having a feedback form. You can just show photos and let people know if sample matches or not based on color science.

Offline Owl

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Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #56 on: Thu, 10 June 2021, 23:17:37 »
based on all of the feedback I received and my own personal thoughts, the mod gray and the alphas gray have been approved. I have requested a second sample of the accent blue, again, based on overwhelming feedback as well as my own personal feelings. This has happened recently so it may be awhile before I get those. I want to thank everyone for their patience as well as their participation and feedback on this process. This is always the hardest part of any set it seems and working with the community and its designers has given me tremendous knowledge and confidence that my first set and contribution to the hobby will be to standards. I will continue to provide updates on the colors until the overwhelming majority, and myself, are happy with the results!
While I understand the sentiment… gathering feedback from people that 1. Might not have the best calibrated screen, 2. Have the correct idea of what the colour should look like irl. It gives me pause to trust your judgment when there have been other sets that actually use colour science to verify that samples GMK is providing is the correct RAL to Pantone.

Project Keyboard and Omnitype contracted the same person that has been in hobby for several years and understands the ins and outs

This can turn out like Shoko… where it turned out well, or it can turn out like Necro… and we know what happened there

I certainly understand your worry as there have been a lot of poorly matched sets in the hobby recently and before.

My process from the beginning was to match everything from the Physical Pantone chips that I had in hand at the time of developing the IC. Decisions about the renders, and now samples, are being made executively by myself, from those chips, but with the input of my customers because it is ultimately their expectations that I am trying to meet. After all they are the ones that will be mad when the keycaps do not look like what they thought they were going to look like, which is why their feedback BEFORE approval is crucial to me to not only determine if I set the correct expectations but if I am also meeting them. It's about being a designer that is willing to work with their customers and fix something BEFORE it ships.

When a set is a dissapointment it isn't because people failed to match the samples to the Chips. GMK already uses spectrophotometers, which are far more accurate and to-standard than anything a first, second, or third time keycap designer could afford. They are so confident in their technology that GMK will actually tell you to provide them with a different chip or Pantone altogether if the sample is to undergo more than their first attempt. (and this is a very common phase where a designer makes a horrible decision). I am doing everything I can to be transparent about my process, my product, and even my finances, so that people are as educated as possible on what they were buying into and what they can expect. I am not making decisions under the table about this product that my customers will not know about. And if I see an opportunity to make a change mid process that will better meet peoples expectations, then it will be pitched, talked about, and voted on in a public forum with my customers.

Sets go wrong when expectations are not set and met correctly. I do not want to be the designer that says, "well the renders are just renders. You shouldn't expect more" or "The chips match so sorry don't know what to tell you GMK looked at it with their magic eyes" or "You shouldn't have used a ****ty gaming monitor to look at color chips or a render, boo hoo"

These are all slaps to the face of customers who had an idea that I put in their head for MONTHS that paid MONEY for that idea. Those are not a good customer experiences. Yes, me and GMK are going to make sure the colors are accurate to the Pantones that I chose from the very beginning. But another 20%-40% of the decision is based off of the feedback and how my customers feel about the product that they purchased. And I will not ship it until an Overwhelming majority are happy with physical samples that they can expect to receive. I will have my lead vendor call GMK, tell them to unplug their machine, and use the money that I made off of Rainy Day to completely redo if it means an overwhelming majority of my customers get what they paid for. Simple as that. And hell, maybe my customers just want it to ship even if they hate it lol. Who knows. But my customers have a voice in this process. I will do all of the work and information gathering so that my customers can make easy and impactful decisions about the product that THEY paid for if they feel that I am not doing it justice.

I am a first time designer, every phase is a new one to me and a challenge. But I educate myself and I will NOT let my products be a joke. And this isn't a defensive stance. There is a LOT of trash floating in this community right now. Trash that has cast doubt and pause in you and a lot of people which is justified. I just want people to feel confident and see evidence that I firmly stand behind my designs and will make it right BEFORE it's wrong.

First of all, I am in the GB since I really like the renders after checking it on multiple different screens, and looking forward to getting the set :) But, I also kinda agree with Starston here. I am not sure if GMK matching the colors is correct information. Since if that was the case, then there wouldn't be any back and forth between designers and GMK. Designers would just give the pantone chips and GMK would do the rest. Can you tell us where you got that information that GMK does the matching?

I think it is really nice that you want to inform your customers about the updates, issues etc. but asking people to do the job that designer supposed to do, using tools that are not suited for the job might hurt you in the long run. In my case, I have two monitors next to each other and when I look at the renders and photos, they literally show different colors. So, needless to say I didn't fill the feedback form since any information that I give is going to be based on bunch of subjective thing.


As far as the information goes, it was partially my fault for interpreting it that way. Basically I was told that GMK "matches to samples perfectly" and will "ask designers to give them a new Pantone all together if the designer wants a redo of the color". I interpreted this as, they must being using material analysis. I am glad Startson informed me that that was incorrect as that impacts how I will be speaking with GMK, and what tone I will be using with them, going forward.

I would never ask my customers to do my job for me. I am simply trying to gauge, to the best of my ability, their impression of what I have so far and if it meets their expectations and, at the very least, gives them the same impressions as the material presented in the IC. Yes, I could absolve myself of disappointing customers and say that I had pictures of the Pantones in the IC and GB and get it matched exactly and just tell people that if they don't like it then they should have bought a better monitor lol. Which isn't necessarily a bad route for a designer to take. They are doing their due dilligance. But I wanted to take it a step further and catch the feedback before the set ships and see where I might need to make a change.

Roughly 40% of the people that gave feedback in the form said that the blue was off. Now I could run spectro on it and come back and say, "yeah it's roughly 99.99% accurate with a virtually non-existent delta" and I gaurantee at least 50% of those 40% would be disapointed. Scaled up to the sales that Rainy Day saw, thats potentially 400-700 people that would not be happy with the blue in their set. It would then be up to me to decided if I should pick a new color and go through the process over again until people are happy. This is a rare occurrence but it does happen.

I am not undermining the value of material analysis. And I am glad it was brought to my attention as I will be reaching out to use it. But I think it is a mistake to undermine the value of this initial feedback that I collected so that I can make sure that my process for setting expectations for my product from the very beginning was done correctly.

Based on the photos blue doesn't seem to match the pantone in my opinion as well. But my point was that you shouldn't put your faith in public opinion (or even to yourself), and put your faith in the data. Even in an unlimited open keyboard GB, as soon as the GB closes, people end up wanting to change their colors :) So, they might look at the photos you took a little bit, and decide that they like or don't like it based on what they see in their screen. But a year from now on, once they get their set, there is no guarantee that they will have the same reaction.

For this GB, you made something very nice and announced the pantones, and have the chips for them already and people bought it based on that. You mention managing expectation, but expectation at this stage is keycaps that are matching the pantones. So not sure why public opinion is required. Only thing that is required is to have keycaps matching the pantones based on color science.

You said "But I wanted to take it a step further and catch the feedback before the set ships and see where I might need to make a change.". Lets say that you have samples that are 100% matching to the pantone chips based on the color science, then you asked for public opinion and got feedback that 90% of the people saying that they are not happy with the color. I would argue that you still shouldn't change the pantone since there is rest of the people who got the set based on the initial picked pantones. So, in my opinion, there is nothing to change here, let alone changing stuff based on subjective opinions.

Tl;dr
First of all, I have never run keycap GB, so in the end it is of course your decision how you want to handle it. I am just having hard time understanding how the feedback is going to be any use to you. I don't think it is managing expectation, as there is only one expectation here to have keycaps matching to pantones. There are only two results based on the feedback: either you change the pantone or you don't change the pantone. If you change the pantones based on extremely subjective
and partial(since not everyone is going to fill the form) feedback, then that is simply wrong due to many reasons. If you are not going to change the pantones, then there is no point having a feedback form. You can just show photos and let people know if sample matches or not based on color science.

Yeah you might be right. The idea of going through with something when 90%, or any amount really, doesnt enjoy what they bought irks me. I dont think I could really show my face again after that haha. I agree though, the science matters and I am going to make sure it's implemented. Another reason why I try to communicate as much info as I can so that I can get grace info like this which helps. I Still think the info that I gathered is valuable in understanding how things have unfolded thus far.

Thank you for your feedback as it has been valuable also and has most likely changed the developement of the color matching process that I took for granted.

Offline kiyoboard

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Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #57 on: Thu, 10 June 2021, 23:23:08 »
Yeah you might be right. The idea of going through with something when 90%, or any amount really, doesnt enjoy what they bought irks me. I dont think I could really show my face again after that haha. I agree though, the science matters and I am going to make sure it's implemented. Another reason why I try to communicate as much info as I can so that I can get grace info like this which helps. I Still think the info that I gathered is valuable in understanding how things have unfolded thus far.

Thank you for your feedback as it has been valuable also and has most likely changed the developement of the color matching process that I took for granted.

And thank you for listening me with an open mind. As I said, I am looking forward to getting this set eventually, and after our conversation now, I have even more confidence in the set. Good luck with it going forward  :thumb: (Also will be in for GMK Lancaster when that runs :) )

Offline Owl

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Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #58 on: Sat, 12 June 2021, 12:32:57 »
Yeah you might be right. The idea of going through with something when 90%, or any amount really, doesnt enjoy what they bought irks me. I dont think I could really show my face again after that haha. I agree though, the science matters and I am going to make sure it's implemented. Another reason why I try to communicate as much info as I can so that I can get grace info like this which helps. I Still think the info that I gathered is valuable in understanding how things have unfolded thus far.

Thank you for your feedback as it has been valuable also and has most likely changed the developement of the color matching process that I took for granted.

And thank you for listening me with an open mind. As I said, I am looking forward to getting this set eventually, and after our conversation now, I have even more confidence in the set. Good luck with it going forward  :thumb: (Also will be in for GMK Lancaster when that runs :) )

Do you, or anyone else, have contact info for Nebulant or others that have access to sprectro tools? I put a request in in the keycap designer discord but wanted to see if there were more, expedited ways, of getting in touch lol. Thanks for you help!

Offline kiyoboard

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Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #59 on: Sat, 12 June 2021, 14:01:36 »
Yeah you might be right. The idea of going through with something when 90%, or any amount really, doesnt enjoy what they bought irks me. I dont think I could really show my face again after that haha. I agree though, the science matters and I am going to make sure it's implemented. Another reason why I try to communicate as much info as I can so that I can get grace info like this which helps. I Still think the info that I gathered is valuable in understanding how things have unfolded thus far.

Thank you for your feedback as it has been valuable also and has most likely changed the developement of the color matching process that I took for granted.

And thank you for listening me with an open mind. As I said, I am looking forward to getting this set eventually, and after our conversation now, I have even more confidence in the set. Good luck with it going forward  :thumb: (Also will be in for GMK Lancaster when that runs :) )

Do you, or anyone else, have contact info for Nebulant or others that have access to sprectro tools? I put a request in in the keycap designer discord but wanted to see if there were more, expedited ways, of getting in touch lol. Thanks for you help!

I don't know him in person, but from a quick search his discord is Nebulant#0001 and his instagram is https://www.instagram.com/nebulant/ Hopefully that helps  :thumb:

Offline Owl

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Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #60 on: Sat, 12 June 2021, 22:11:27 »
Yeah you might be right. The idea of going through with something when 90%, or any amount really, doesnt enjoy what they bought irks me. I dont think I could really show my face again after that haha. I agree though, the science matters and I am going to make sure it's implemented. Another reason why I try to communicate as much info as I can so that I can get grace info like this which helps. I Still think the info that I gathered is valuable in understanding how things have unfolded thus far.

Thank you for your feedback as it has been valuable also and has most likely changed the developement of the color matching process that I took for granted.

And thank you for listening me with an open mind. As I said, I am looking forward to getting this set eventually, and after our conversation now, I have even more confidence in the set. Good luck with it going forward  :thumb: (Also will be in for GMK Lancaster when that runs :) )

Do you, or anyone else, have contact info for Nebulant or others that have access to sprectro tools? I put a request in in the keycap designer discord but wanted to see if there were more, expedited ways, of getting in touch lol. Thanks for you help!

I don't know him in person, but from a quick search his discord is Nebulant#0001 and his instagram is https://www.instagram.com/nebulant/ Hopefully that helps  :thumb:

Perfect thank you!

Offline Tron2LuvCarter

  • Posts: 2
Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #61 on: Sat, 19 June 2021, 13:32:01 »
Just want to echo what a few others said. If you're happy with the Pantone chip you chose, just have GMK match it and measure with a calibrated color spectrophotometer. Aim for Delta E*< 1.0. The average human eye cannot visually distinguish anything below that number. A trained professional can though.

I worked in color design in the automotive interior industry for 8 years. DO NOT rely on people commenting on screengrabs, etc.
The ONLY way to PROPERLY evaluate color is under properly calibrated lighting (color industry standard is D65 which replicates sunlight in clear sky conditions from 12-2pm). There are light booths made specifically for reviewing color. Anything less than using these methods will lead to less than professional results. Color design is a very technical and important industry. I would offer to do color readings for you, but I am leaving my current position at the end of next week.

Just a basic primer on color - color is how the human eye perceives light reflecting off an object. The same item will vary drastically depending on the lighting conditions. The same item can look red, pink, black, etc depending on the lighting.

Offline Nebulant

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Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #62 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 11:33:22 »
Just want to echo what a few others said. If you're happy with the Pantone chip you chose, just have GMK match it and measure with a calibrated color spectrophotometer. Aim for Delta E*< 1.0. The average human eye cannot visually distinguish anything below that number. A trained professional can though.

I worked in color design in the automotive interior industry for 8 years. DO NOT rely on people commenting on screengrabs, etc.
The ONLY way to PROPERLY evaluate color is under properly calibrated lighting (color industry standard is D65 which replicates sunlight in clear sky conditions from 12-2pm). There are light booths made specifically for reviewing color. Anything less than using these methods will lead to less than professional results. Color design is a very technical and important industry. I would offer to do color readings for you, but I am leaving my current position at the end of next week.

Just a basic primer on color - color is how the human eye perceives light reflecting off an object. The same item will vary drastically depending on the lighting conditions. The same item can look red, pink, black, etc depending on the lighting.

GMK doesn't use a spectrophotometer to color match, but I do. I have this set in hand and am working on it currently.

Offline YouGotRioted

  • Posts: 38
Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #63 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 15:26:07 »
GMK doesn't use a spectrophotometer to color match, but I do. I have this set in hand and am working on it currently.

I'm now fully confident this set will look amazing.

Offline Owl

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Re: [GB] GMK Rainy Day | Pre-Production Samples have arrived! 5/22/21
« Reply #64 on: Sun, 27 June 2021, 14:00:20 »
The data is in! I want to firstly thank Nebulant for their help with analyzing the samples professionally. This is a tremendous tool for helping decide what direction we need to head to get the best possible samples and ultimately the best possible product.

I want to start off by saying that I am not the expert in this technology or process. I am familiar with it and I do understand the intention and process behind it to a degree. If you have questions, I will do my best to answer them but I will be relying on Nebulant to answer deeper inquiries about this process.

Before we get to the data I want to make everyone aware that, this data is simply a tool. Both Nebulant and I agree that the analysis and data is a powerful tool but a tool nonetheless to help guide decision making. The expectations that people have for this set and the feedback that I have gotten from the community is another tool that will still be used in determining what actions are best to take so that the product that people purchased is the product that they receive.

With that out of the way, lets get to the first round of samples data.

Rainy Day Alphas - Pantone 15-4101



Rainy Day Mods - Pantone 10393



Rainy Day Accent - Pantone 9481



Summary:
In short, the alphas and mods turned out very good. while the mods did have a spike in it's graph towards the end, the Delta(2000) is still at a very acceptable level. That being said, I might order a second round anyway as the samples do lean into being slightly warmer based on this data. The Alphas are near perfect. I feel very comfortable signing off on those.

The accents, as we all expected, were less than stellar. not horrible but they certainly could use some tweaking. To put words from the data to what we saw in our initial reactions, the accent blue is leaning towards the warm end of the spectrum. There is yellow and red in there. So I will be using that data to steer GMKs direction for the next round of samples.

TLDR:
Alphas pass
Mods pass but want a second round anyway just in case
Accent does not pass and will be getting a second round.

Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns. Please post them here in the thread for visibility so that I can answer them and so the discussion can be public. There will also be discussions in my Discord as well but I will be keeping GH the polished method of delivery for this process as requested by the community.

Thank you all for your patience and support! I look forward to getting this right for you guys and shipping the best possible product for everyone!