[GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F

[Pete]

Great, I've asked orihalcon to get in touch with those expressing interest as he's the only one who sells the solenoid driver xwhatsit add on board.

I'd love one too if it wasn't too much trouble to install. I was previously wondering if there was some sort of USB controlled solenoid that could be retrofitted relatively easily to any keyboard but nothing came of that.

[snevok]

I'd definitely be interested in a solenoid too.

[JohnSmith4623]

I too would be interested in a solenoid, though I don't know how much I would use it, but as long as it's toggle-able it sounds like it would be pretty neat to install. Sounds like we just have to buy the solenoid and then hook it up to the headers already on the USB controller correct and screw it into the case? I'm a bit new to this stuff haha.

[ChemicalHalo]

I am sorry for cluttering up the thread, but I think a solenoid would be a great addition.

Please link a GB/IC thread here if it happens!

[Ellipse]

I believe orihalcon has the xwhatsit solenoid drivers in stock and you can order them directly from him.  You can also order the solenoid from the aliexpress link posted earlier - so there will not likely be a requirement for a separate group buy for the solenoids. 

For anyone interested in the solenoid please feel free to contact orihalcon directly and/or continue posting interest here.

[Ellipse]

Over on DT there is discussion on alternative solenoids - if anyone has any advice or recommendations on using modern solenoids please let us know.

[Zobeid Zuma]

As we wait through this final stretch of the whole manufacturing quest, which has been so much longer than many of us anticipated…  I find that my taste in keyboards has actually changed a fair bit since the time when I placed my order, and I'm dithering over whether I should change my order, assuming that's even possible now.  With all the parts already produced, it would be perfectly understandable if it can't be changed.  On the other hand, the website appears to still be taking new orders for this first production run?

Like so many before me, I've given 60% keyboards a try, and I've learned that they actually work pretty well for me.  Thus, here I am scratching my head and wondering if I would prefer the F62 instead of the F77 that I put in for.  The F62 is arguably better looking, space saving, and would let me keep the keyboard closer to my mouse as I have become accustomed now.  And those extra 15 keys, well…  What are they really good for?

It would be so much better if the 15-key pad was on the left instead of the right.  But you know, it's a replica of the IBM, from an era before there was any such thing as a "mouse".  They designed it the way they designed it, and it is what it is.

On the other hand, I've been using a split-spacebar keyboard (Banana Split 60) with a FN key right in the center, so I can simply press down my thumb and have all my nav keys right under my fingertips.  Obviously the F62 doesn't have that.  (Again, it is what it is.)  So I'd be looking at:



My key assignments are all based on Linux usage, by the way.  So, I don't need Windows or Menu keys.  I love my Compose key, but it can be programmed to work with a tap of Right-Alt.

If I have to use both hands to navigate (with my right hand performing the critical task of holding down the FN key!), maybe I'd just be just as well off with the F77 anyhow.  I mean, if I've got to take my right hand off the trackball, I might as well move it to the 15-key pad and do my navigating there.



And then it occurs to me that if this thing is really good (as we all hope), then there is supposed to be a second production run (which, I assume, shouldn't take years to get done), and I could end up getting both versions anyhow.

What do you guys think?

[tron]

As we wait through this final stretch of the whole manufacturing quest, which has been so much longer than many of us anticipated…  I find that my taste in keyboards has actually changed a fair bit since the time when I placed my order, and I'm dithering over whether I should change my order, assuming that's even possible now.  With all the parts already produced, it would be perfectly understandable if it can't be changed.  On the other hand, the website appears to still be taking new orders for this first production run?

Like so many before me, I've given 60% keyboards a try, and I've learned that they actually work pretty well for me.  Thus, here I am scratching my head and wondering if I would prefer the F62 instead of the F77 that I put in for.  The F62 is arguably better looking, space saving, and would let me keep the keyboard closer to my mouse as I have become accustomed now.  And those extra 15 keys, well…  What are they really good for?

It would be so much better if the 15-key pad was on the left instead of the right.  But you know, it's a replica of the IBM, from an era before there was any such thing as a "mouse".  They designed it the way they designed it, and it is what it is.

On the other hand, I've been using a split-spacebar keyboard (Banana Split 60) with a FN key right in the center, so I can simply press down my thumb and have all my nav keys right under my fingertips.  Obviously the F62 doesn't have that.  (Again, it is what it is.)  So I'd be looking at:

Show Image

My key assignments are all based on Linux usage, by the way.  So, I don't need Windows or Menu keys.  I love my Compose key, but it can be programmed to work with a tap of Right-Alt.

If I have to use both hands to navigate (with my right hand performing the critical task of holding down the FN key!), maybe I'd just be just as well off with the F77 anyhow.  I mean, if I've got to take my right hand off the trackball, I might as well move it to the 15-key pad and do my navigating there.

Show Image

And then it occurs to me that if this thing is really good (as we all hope), then there is supposed to be a second production run (which, I assume, shouldn't take years to get done), and I could end up getting both versions anyhow.

What do you guys think?

It's kind of the opposite for me. I now prefer the F77 layout. It's not that much wider and it's nice to have quick access to arrow/number keys for coding and data entry tasks(although I do agree the F62 looks better and more modern vs F77). At the end of the day, I couldn't resist getting both. I could always sell one down the road if it didn't get much use.

[Jampu]

...I've been using a split-spacebar keyboard (Banana Split 60) with a FN key right in the center, so I can simply press down my thumb and have all my nav keys right under my fingertips.  Obviously the F62 doesn't have that.

Thanks to the Wheelwriter, you can in fact use a 1.5:1:2.75:7.25:1:1.5 bottom row.  This is (surprisingly) compatible with all IBM buckling spring keyboards that come with a standard or WKL bottom row, including these repro F62s and F77s.  Somehow, the F107 is my only split space keyboard so far and now it's very difficult for me to get real work done without it.  It's not the truest split space (gotta curl the left thumb a bit) but it's comfortable enough to use 24/7.

To do this, you will need to procure the following:

• 1x Model M white stabilizer insert
• 2x Ellipse spacebar stabilizer clip (or make your own)
• 1x Wheelwriter "Code" key
• 1x Wheelwriter spacebar and stabilizer wire

The installation is somewhat self-explanatory once you have the parts, but it does require attaching stabilizer clips to the barrel plate which may be troublesome depending on the route you take.  I flattened some heavy-gauge copper wire and bent it into clips which I then soldered onto the plate and spray painted over.  Removing the flipper from the right Alt key is also highly recommended.

I will try to take a few pictures for reference once I am back at work.

[mumford]

If I have to use both hands to navigate (with my right hand performing the critical task of holding down the FN key!), maybe I'd just be just as well off with the F77 anyhow.  I mean, if I've got to take my right hand off the trackball, I might as well move it to the 15-key pad and do my navigating there.

I use trackball too.  An option is to move the trackball to the left side and move the ball with left hand.

[Ellipse]

Updated assembled spring+flipper samples will arrive next week.  If all goes well, mass assembly of the flippers and springs can start.

[Ellipse]

The assembled spring samples arrived.  Machine 1 is still producing perfect assemblies but machines 2 and 3 need some adjustment.  The difference in the sound output upon key press and release is noticeable with improperly attached springs.  I have asked the factory to start full assembly with Machine 1 for now to save time.

[supamesican]

I got the HHKB style layout(I think with split shift and backspace) and a key set, should I also order the HHKB keyset? https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/front-printed-keys-f1-etc/  Thanks!

[Ellipse]

supa, those extra keys will be included so no need to order it unless you want an extra set.  If you plan on using this keyboard for decades, I recommend getting extra key sets as the key top texture does wear down with extended usage.

[Ellipse]

I received some more assembled spring samples today.  Machine 1 is still producing approved assemblies.  Machine 3 is improved but still needs adjustment.  Machine 2 needs adjustment.  I've asked the factory to start using just Machine 1 so we can get things moving.  I sent them a quality control video showing the testing of springs and emphasizing the sound differences of good and bad assemblies.  Even a fraction of 1 mm out of spec in the distance between spring and nub causes performance and sound issues.  Also even a few degrees off for the spring angle attachment to the flipper is noticeable.  The assembly process delays are frustrating but the factory will keep making adjustments so all keyboards pass my quality control standards. 

[Pete]

I sent them a quality control video showing the testing of springs and emphasizing the sound differences of good and bad assemblies. 
...
The assembly process delays are frustrating but the factory will keep making adjustments so all keyboards pass my quality control standards.

Thanks for your awesome dedication and persistence. It is fantastic to have someone so passionate about the quality of the final product.

[Ellipse]

Thanks for the kind words Pete.  Once the other two machines are set to spec they should produce the 95%+ approval rate of spring/flipper attacher Machine 1.  I have asked them to do the basic sound testing as part of the QC - essentially a spring with some reverb is good, but with a buzzing sound or no reverb means it should be detached and reattached, and the spring should potentially be discarded.  I am not being overly particular on the length of the reverb or whatnot.

Also given this research it may be possible to mod the springs by hand if you prefer springs with less reverb - just press the springs down all the way leaving no space between bottom rung of the spring and the base of the nub on the flipper.  Given the end of the spring and the last rung of the spring obviously not being a full loop, this means the spring would be pressed in a way that makes the spring lean slightly to one side so that the entire bottom surface of the spring is as close to the base of the nub as possible.  I will not be modding this for any orders though.

[EvergreenTree]

Given that only one of the spring attachment machines is working currently, what would the current ETA be?

Also, I agree with Pete.  Even though the impatient part of my brain wants it now, I know how important it is to get it right.  I understand and appreciate all of the work you have put into it and I hope it turns out well.

[Ellipse]

These should start going out early next year.  And thank you for the kind words! 

[Phosphero]

What's the deadline for ordering? Is there a maximum number that you have parts for at this point or something?

[Ellipse]

Yes I made extra parts and keyboards and you can still get in on the early bird round.

[a_ak57]

How easy is it to move the flippers/barrels to modify the layouts on these?  I ordered an HHKB layout, but should I decide to swap to a 2u Backspace at some point in the future, will it be manageable for someone who has done Topre dome swaps and the like?

[Ellipse]

Ak it should be easy to do.  I plan on making some instructional repair videos after the early bird round is delivered.

[Ellipse]

Should we add the QC inspection signature labels on the inside of the keyboards (bottom inner assembly) like the originals?  So far the consensus on DT is no as it would delay the 1,400 keyboards going out.

[ljosa]

I don’t care for the QC sticker.

[LightningXI]

Should we add the QC inspection signature labels on the inside of the keyboards (bottom inner assembly) like the originals?  So far the consensus on DT is no as it would delay the 1,400 keyboards going out.

My vote is for no. The outside is pretty prone to erosion anyway. Plus the delay is much not needed.

[Atredl]

While it would be cool to have I’m with the other guys on this one. IMO not worth the delay since there are so many boards that’d need to be done.

[dotcom]

Should we add the QC inspection signature labels on the inside of the keyboards (bottom inner assembly) like the originals?  So far the consensus on DT is no as it would delay the 1,400 keyboards going out.

My vote is no, but I appreciate the thought and offering.

[Kavik]

I also vote no.

[bthezebra]

I also vote no.

[MFahim]

Thanks, but no thanks lol.

[Ellipse]

Also I'd like to put together a book/online resource including photos of the prototyping, production, assembly, and QC processes after all the orders go out.  I will definitely be documenting the parts and such in writing and also through instructional/repair videos.

[Pemdas]

Hey all, looking to let go of my order. I'm #13 on the F62. HHKB style split backspace. Regular blank keycaps. Early bird tooling volunteer + 1 extra black case.

Order breakdown is:

    $517.38 (board, volunteer, shipping) + $100.00 (extra Black case), for $617.38 Total.

[hoggy]

The idea of a book of this, I'm in for a copy.

[MFahim]

Any idea around what time next year these are expected to ship out? I found out this weekend that I probably have to move overseas sometime early next year and I'm not sure if I should wait or just cancel and purchase again in the future.

[Ellipse]

Great hoggy! 

Mfahim, these should start going out in 1H 2019.  No need to lose your spot in line. 

Plus I cannot guarantee current pricing for the next round, so you'd probably have to pay more next time.  Raw materials are up significantly so the next batch will cost more.  I don't have any specifics just yet on next round pricing.

[MFahim]

yea, the thing is that if i get placed in the USA, i get to save like $50 on shipping, I'll think about it in the next week or so. But its good to know that there indeed will be future buys.

[LightningXI]

Hey all, looking to let go of my order. I'm #13 on the F62. HHKB style split backspace. Regular blank keycaps. Early bird tooling volunteer + 1 extra black case.

Order breakdown is:

 $517.38 (board, volunteer, shipping) + $100.00 (extra Black case), for $617.38 Total.

Incredibly tempting, especially for a black case. #13 is also one of my favorite numbers, as it was my jersey # when I was an athlete. What kind of case did you pick? Is it original Kishsaver style in black? Or the ultracompact?


Ellipse, how would it work if the order transfer is from Pemdas who is in Canada to someone in the US? Would shipping charges be refunded?

[sundin]

Hello!
I'd like to know the status of the GB : what is done, what is to be done, and an average shipping delay ?
Thank you

[Ellipse]

Sundin production finished and we are in the assembly phase so these are expected to go out in 1H 2019.

Some timeline updates from the factory - we still have quite a bit of assembly time ahead of us:

The next batch of spring samples should arrive next week - hopefully the spring attacher machines 2 and 3 are assembling everything to spec! 

Then they are going to start doing some test assemblies of a few full keyboards and testing the different configuration options.

Then in late January they start their long break for the new year. 

After that I am hoping assembly can ramp up.  Depending on assembly quality and speed I may have them assemble a few hundred and send them over right away instead of waiting for all 1500 or so to be assembled - not sure just yet if this is feasible.

Meanwhile this year I have been consulting with dye sublimation industry experts and an original IBM Model F keyboard production manager and ordering parts to design and build my dye sub system.  Progress has been slower than expected.  I had someone help me by building a temporary jig but the results were not to spec, and based on my conversations I decided I needed to build the real rig and then continue iterating from there. 

[gaunt]

Awesome to hear about all this progress. Ellipse. However, when you say that the keyboards will be going out in 1H 2019, are you talking about all the keyboards, or only for the people who have elected to receive their model f without keycaps or with modern keycaps manufactured by Unicomp? I'm not very familiar with keycap manufacture or dyesublimination, but I understand that doing a solid job of it is a difficult challenge even for (large?) businesses, which is why e.g. BSP, or vintage keyboards are held in such a high regard for their keycaps. Won't making dyesubs on your own be a difficult project that requires a lot of trial-and-error to get right (and certainly to the high standard of model Fs), and something that will significantly extend the completion of the group buy?

[Ellipse]

The completed keyboards should be going out then, gaunt.  I do hope you decide to join the project!  When the dye sub jig is completed in early January I will have more updates for everyone. 

We still have quite a bit of non-dye sub related assembly time ahead of us so the dye sub is not currently bottlenecking anything.  As I noted earlier if it does become a significant bottleneck everyone will have the option to get their keyboard before the keys are ready, and the option to have Unicomp keys.

[EvergreenTree]

If I ordered a keyboard with blanks, will the shipping date for my keyboard be held back by the dye-subbing?

[Ellipse]

Evergreen yes, as noted before the focus is on getting all the orders out from the factory as soon as possible.

[Ellipse]

Attached is a page from the assembly guide to be sent to the factory this week (and will also be included in the product manuals).  It specifies the way I close the new Model F inner assemblies with hand tools and without damaging the powdercoating (they may come up with a better way, through adapting their available factory tooling).  For the factory I have been writing a full manual this month on how to assemble each type of keyboard configuration (e.g. QC inspection guidelines, which barrels have flippers, which keys go in each barrel for each type of layout option, the makeup of each key set, etc.). 

The factory still needs work on the attacher machines per the latest attached spring/flipper examples sent this week.  It is frustrating that they have not gotten this right but as noted earlier I will not compromise one of the most important parts of the project to rush assembly.  I have sent the factory a video of the sound differences with good and bad springs (as noted and uploaded to GH earlier) to reinforce the necessity of keeping to the assembly specifications.  Unfortunately Machine 1's success rate is no longer high so all three machines need some adjustment.  I have sent the factory some suggestions.  I confirmed that the sample spring/flipper assemblies themselves when reseated by hand do pass inspection so it is not an issue with the springs or flippers.  Here's a link to the spring attacher in case you haven't seen it already: 

If anyone has any recommendations on how to improve the attaching process please do PM me.  I suggested to the factory a very thin 0.2mm metal stencil type part to hold at the base of the flippers so the spring does not get pressed down too far.

[ApocalypseMaow]

Hey all, looking to let go of my order. I'm #13 on the F62. HHKB style split backspace. Regular blank keycaps. Early bird tooling volunteer + 1 extra black case.

Order breakdown is:

    $517.38 (board, volunteer, shipping) + $100.00 (extra Black case), for $617.38 Total.

you should double check on that case number brother. I paid for two early bird toolings to get any number from 5 and up. I picked all black f62 #13...

[Pemdas]

Hey all, looking to let go of my order. I'm #13 on the F62. HHKB style split backspace. Regular blank keycaps. Early bird tooling volunteer + 1 extra black case.

Order breakdown is:

    $517.38 (board, volunteer, shipping) + $100.00 (extra Black case), for $617.38 Total.

you should double check on that case number brother. I paid for two early bird toolings to get any number from 5 and up. I picked all black f62 #13...

When did you place your order? I ordered mine on January 27, 2016 and have the email receipts for it all. Early Bird Volunteer and I also have a confirmation PM here on Geekhack from Ellipse dated January 27th 2016 20:05:46.

[Ellipse]

ApocalypseMaow you have serial 5 for the classic F62 (you ordered a single digit serial KB) and Pemdas has serial 13 for the same KB.

[Lagomorph]

If anyone has any recommendations on how to improve the attaching process please do PM me.  I suggested to the factory a very thin 0.2mm metal stencil type part to hold at the base of the flippers so the spring does not get pressed down too far.

I was going to ask if it was understood what was causing the difference between the early machine 1 mounted springs and the other two machines, but it sounds from this that it could be the distance the spring is pressed?

[Ellipse]

Yes that is the current thinking