Help: Ergo-style Keyboard with Mouse?

[anotherjunkie]

Quick rundown: I have a disability that causes my joints to dislocate very easily. Typing on a normal, flat keyboard causes my fingers to dislocate frequently. I also use a trackball, because the continual side-side movement of a normal mouse causes my shoulder to roll out. Macros are my best friend, because the stretch between keys for shortcuts is dangerous for me.

Now, the keyboard I've been using has broken, and I have to replace it. I've been coveting an ergodox for years, but I haven't been willing to risk my cash vs. my soldering ability until now. The dox seems perfect, because the extra keys will allow me to program my macros in-place, rather than switching to my Nostromo keypad like I have been for years. The only issue I have with it is that I'd love to have my trackball where the right thumb cluster is located right now.

So, does anyone know of a keyboard that either has a trackball built in, or that has the thumb cluster on a separate board so that I could move it's location and hack the trackball in myself? Everything I've looked at has one solid board, rather than the thumb boards being separate.

The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard is out because it lost all the extra keys that I need. The King's Assembly transformed into a monstrosity with an outrageous pricetag, so that's also out. Any others? Kits?

I really appreciate the help.

 (If you have an assembled dox or a kit you're willing to sell cheaply to help me out, please let me know.)

[yesguchi]

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=84148.0

What about this?

[tp4tissue]

Probably look into the Matias ergo pro if you're not familiar with soldering.


I'm the biggest proponent of Ergodox,  but it's very involved and not always suitable to the new guys coming in.


also , Which finger dislocates.   is it due to the shape of your hand, or the joint

[anotherjunkie]

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=84148.0

What about this?

That's pretty interesting. I've seen vertical keyboards in the past, but I don't know that it's for me. Some people really like them, but since I like playing games and stuff I think that it might be too big of a shift. However, a similar design turned flat, with the mouse controlled by the wrist could be neat. I remember someone proposing a similar device a few years ago.

Probably look into the Matias ergo pro if you're not familiar with soldering.


I'm the biggest proponent of Ergodox,  but it's very involved and not always suitable to the new guys coming in.


also , Which finger dislocates.   is it due to the shape of your hand, or the joint

The Ergo Pro is really close, but it doesn't seem any different from the UH, except for tenting/palm rests. The Macro keys are a huge thing, because I do a lot of repetitive keystrokes. The designated cut/paste is great, but tonight I spent a while in Excel needing Ctrl&\. Being able to "quickly" bind that to a key and repeat is great, but I need 5 or more keys I can do that to. Right now I rely on a Razer Nostromo, which has 14 keys that can be modified/bound to macros, but it's a whole additional piece next to my keyboard. Getting those macro keys integrated to my keyboard again is priority one, with a built-in mouse being a "wishful thinking" second.

If I can't find something with a mouse built in, then the Ergo is absolutely my top choice because the thumb clusters are placed really well for me, and because of the myriad of macro key options.

I trust my soldering skills for the most part now. I started looking at the ergo when the first iteration was starting orders, and didn't know anything at that point. I think I'd be able to assemble one now. If I can find someone who has a kit of any stage, or a finished set, I'd probably do that. Otherwise I'll likely piece together an Infinite Ergodox from the source files on their site, but that would be a huge pain, and probably take far longer than I need to.

Also, my disorder results in faulty connective tissue (tendons, ligaments, skin, veins), so even though everything is shaped right the joints aren't held in place they way they are supposed to be. Since its systemic, all the joints in my body are prone to dislocating. When typing, it tends to be Thumb, index or ring more frequently than middle or pinkie, but my spine is the most problematic place for me. Because sudden dislocations pose such a danger, I spend 90% of my time with my wheelchair parked in front of my computer -- which makes replacing my keyboard a really urgent issue. I have to do it within the next couple weeks, so I wanted to make sure that I'm not missing a board with the mouse built in, or one that could be easily modified to include a trackball. 

[tp4tissue]

Hrrrmm...

Ergodox can achieve a a high degree of tenting, but you have to be able to adjust the -height- of your typing surface or seating position to accomodate.

if you'd like to use a HIGH tenting angle, I have mine at 55 degrees..   This is at my standing desk, with elbows by my side, upper arm completely loose and hanging...



But if I were to be seated, and my elbow is extended forward..  then I could not be comfortable with this high a tenting angle, because as the elbow rotates outwards,  the neutral position of the wrist is rotated inwards..


So it's a combination of heights and rotations that you'll have to look into given the adjustability of your seating.

with higher tenting,  you will need a large mousepad to go under the ergodox, otherwise the m3 bolts you'd use for tenting won't be able to grip onto a hard table surface as you type..

[davkol]

ErgoDox EZ is factory made.

[tp4tissue]

ErgoDox EZ is factory made.

yea there's the EZ,  but keep in mind EZ is tentable to ~15 degrees..  This is quite shallow,  if you want higher tenting , it's a bit harder on the EZ because it doesn't have the holes where the Ergodox Vanilla has holes..

hahahahahhahaa

[davkol]

Kinesis V3 lifts or the 3d-printed thing essentially work with any case.

[anotherjunkie]

Hrrrmm...

Ergodox can achieve a a high degree of tenting, but you have to be able to adjust the -height- of your typing surface or seating position to accomodate.

if you'd like to use a HIGH tenting angle, I have mine at 55 degrees..   This is at my standing desk, with elbows by my side, upper arm completely loose and hanging...



But if I were to be seated, and my elbow is extended forward..  then I could not be comfortable with this high a tenting angle, because as the elbow rotates outwards,  the neutral position of the wrist is rotated inwards..


So it's a combination of heights and rotations that you'll have to look into given the adjustability of your seating.

with higher tenting,  you will need a large mousepad to go under the ergodox, otherwise the m3 bolts you'd use for tenting won't be able to grip onto a hard table surface as you type..

Yeah! So one nice thing about my wheelchair is that Its been tuned so that my arms are at that correct angle when I have the desk/tray portion attached to the tray. I also have the ability to move that up/down slightly, and away from my body if need be.


Being able to adjust each independently will be nice, because -- just letting them fall naturally -- my more-frequently injured left arm rests at 50-60degrees, while my right is around 35-40degrees. It seems like that is well above the ERgodox EZ, but the ability to use custom bases extends that somewhat. I'm pretty used to rigging custom pieces for my needs, so it wouldn't be terrible to have to do that.

[kasakka]

Wouldn't simply a split keyboard like the Ergodox with a trackball controller of your choice between them work? I imagine given the right trackball model it could be placed close enough to the thumb cluster. Apart from the UHK which won't have a trackball module out until next year I haven't seen anything that combines the two.

[tp4tissue]

I think a vertical mouse would help  buh.... there are no gaming sensor vertical mice on the market, You gotta build my Ergopwn,


https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=83697.0

Which is easier than it would be a few months ago, because they've just released the Logitech g-pro,  so if you take that apart, you don't need an extra usb hub..

[anotherjunkie]

Wouldn't simply a split keyboard like the Ergodox with a trackball controller of your choice between them work? I imagine given the right trackball model it could be placed close enough to the thumb cluster. Apart from the UHK which won't have a trackball module out until next year I haven't seen anything that combines the two.

This is what it sounds like I'll be doing. I've been using a logitech trackball for years, and I can set it right next to my board. The thing is that my disorder is so finniky that even just reducing the motion it takes to go from board to trackball would be beneficial. Since I have to replace the board, I thought why not try to find one that has the trackball integrated? It just seems like that doesn't exist at the moment, aside from a few boards that are still pipe-dreams.

I think a vertical mouse would help  buh.... there are no gaming sensor vertical mice on the market, You gotta build my Ergopwn,

Vertical mice help a lot of people, but they aren't for me. They're great for carpal tunnel, and for anyone with grip problems. My issue is that any motion on the joints is dangerous, with my shoulder being a particular nuisance. In my experience a vertical mouse actually increases the shoulder motion, because with your hand upright the (admittedly small amount of) motion that your elbow previously did from side-to-side with a normal mouse is impossible now that your elbow is positioned to only bend up and down. So I moved to a trackball forever ago. It increases the amount of strain on my thumb, but I only have to move my arm/shoulder when going from my keyboard to the mouse. If the trackball were built in, I'd hit the holy grail of being able to eliminate that motion all together!

[tp4tissue]

Hrrrrmm

I guess you need to build a Gaming trackball then

It's basically really straightforward,  Just mount a gaming mouse to near the base of the trackball,  make sure up and down is correctly oriented first obviously, hahaha

[xtrafrood]

I've dug up some information about using a 'gaming mouse' for piecing together a dpi switchable trackball but I haven't found anything all that impressive. Most use laser mice and optical sensors need funky balls with dots for motion. I know tp will say how wrong I am but these are all pitfalls I've come across during my research.

From what I've read l-trac comes close but still suffers from laser based acceleration just like most laser mice. Some people say it won't track at all when they spin the ball at a certain speed. I've never had that kind of tracking problem with my little logitech optical trackball.

Elecom makes or features optical trackballs (thumb and finger models) with dpi switching up to 1500. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67710.0. I guess they're pretty small when compared to other trackballs but they are jam packed with features that seem to play nice with Windows 10

I'm so fed up with cleaning the trackball and inconsistency because of dust that I'm seriously considering an Adesso or Logitech trackpad. Glass ftw

[tp4tissue]

I've dug up some information about using a 'gaming mouse' for piecing together a dpi switchable trackball but I haven't found anything all that impressive. Most use laser mice and optical sensors need funky balls with dots for motion. I know tp will say how wrong I am but these are all pitfalls I've come across during my research.

From what I've read l-trac comes close but still suffers from laser based acceleration just like most laser mice. Some people say it won't track at all when they spin the ball at a certain speed. I've never had that kind of tracking problem with my little logitech optical trackball.

Elecom makes or features optical trackballs (thumb and finger models) with dpi switching up to 1500. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67710.0. I guess they're pretty small when compared to other trackballs but they are jam packed with features that seem to play nice with Windows 10

I'm so fed up with cleaning the trackball and inconsistency because of dust that I'm seriously considering an Adesso or Logitech trackpad. Glass ftw

This is a Really simple build.. You just need a mouse, attached to a ball that's on rollers..

There's really not much more to it than that...

You want to use a matte black ball if possible.



But the downside is, because of the curvature, if you don't have a special lens, then you may need to use 2 mice to reducing the sphere bias.

[dotancohen]

Probably look into the Matias ergo pro if you're not familiar with soldering.

I second the Matias ergo pro. I'm typing on one now, with the mouse in between the halves. Sometimes my phone is there instead. And sometimes a coffee.

I've had the keyboard for about a month, I'll post a review soon.

[xtrafrood]

Probably look into the Matias ergo pro if you're not familiar with soldering.

I second the Matias ergo pro. I'm typing on one now, with the mouse in between the halves. Sometimes my phone is there instead. And sometimes a coffee.

I've had the keyboard for about a month, I'll post a review soon.

I look forward to the read! I've read a few reviews that were pretty unfavorable it would be nice to read of a positive experience

[YoshiCaps]

https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard-soft-tactile-kailh-cherry-mx-compatible-brown-keyswitches-227-english might work, but i'm not sure. As for the trackball, the Kensington Orbit should work, but don't take my word for it.

[YoshiCaps]

https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard-soft-tactile-kailh-cherry-mx-compatible-brown-keyswitches-227-english might work, but i'm not sure beacuase of lack of macros. As for the trackball, the Kensington Orbit should work, but don't take my word for it.

Sorry if this looks like spam, but i misclicked >-<

[possumgumbo]

https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard-soft-tactile-kailh-cherry-mx-compatible-brown-keyswitches-227-english might work, but i'm not sure. As for the trackball, the Kensington Orbit should work, but don't take my word for it.

Sweet lord, don't buy this thing. My company bought mine for some shoulder issues and it only registers every 20th keypress. Trulyergonomic needs to be shut down.

[dotancohen]

Probably look into the Matias ergo pro if you're not familiar with soldering.

I second the Matias ergo pro. I'm typing on one now, with the mouse in between the halves. Sometimes my phone is there instead. And sometimes a coffee.

I've had the keyboard for about a month, I'll post a review soon.

I look forward to the read! I've read a few reviews that were pretty unfavorable it would be nice to read of a positive experience

Here's the review, but I do need to update it.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=84570.0

[xtrafrood]

I've read about Alps style key wobbles. Seems somewhat normal. Haven't tried one myself, though