What do you call it?
How do the switches sound in comparison to being in a plastic case?Much quieter, the plastic case has a lot more resonance during the click and especially when bottoming out.
wow, what an amazing job...when do you go into production?
:)
wow, what an amazing job...when do you go into production?
:)
very nice handy work!!
Its very clean and has taken some serious though to get just right.
You did well not to burn and drown it when it fell on the floor.
Amazing stuff.
Oh and can I say the aluminium work is superb. I'm crap with metals :)
I have been working on some designs for an exotic wood keyboard.
I make joysticks from the stuff why not keyboards.
You do plan on mass producing these, right? : )
New suggestion for caps lock... can you make it a num lock? (Actually, I'm thinking something like a multi-layered numlock. Have it simulate a numpad's editing block with it on, maybe, and the Fn (or swirly-G) key to get an actual numpad with it on or off?)
And, I think I know what the Menu button can be used for... middle mouse. ;)
(I haven't tried blue Cherries, but if I like them, I... want one of these. Never thought I'd be saying that about a spacesaver.)
I'd like to. It's a big step though.
Of course, if we're designing our own low volume custom keyboard design, there'll be room for whatever keyswitches we want,
Of course, if we're designing our own low volume custom keyboard design, there'll be room for whatever keyswitches we want, except for possibly buckling spring, but possibly including Topre capacitive, in the design.
Time for a poll.
Well, I'm not sure about individual switch selection, although keeping it within a model line probably wouldn't be hard (think variations between Cherry MX models, but not switching to Alps, or vice versa.)
Also, I'd prefer a 2-step caps lock, .
I really should draw my optimal layouts... how many Fn-style modifiers does that controller support?
I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to the logistics regarding what it would take to produce production keyboards...but for what it's worth, you have the full support of geekhack. If we can be of assistance, just let me know. (we need a go to keyboard here) :)
(I'm thinking of this from a production standpoint. Buying TrackPoint IV keyboards to rip them apart to integrate the pointing stick = wasteful.)
all I can say is if the guy who launched metadot could do it on a whim with no previous manufacturing experience, then I think any of us can. Just a matter of getting the funders together with the lawyers :)
There's only 2 things I'd request changing on the design above --
1) that the capslock key be a normal flat-top key and not the 2-step or '2-level' style
2) that we throw in the normal 12 function keys along the top.
So, really, what we need to do is optimize the layout. Of course, the Caps key will be used for different things by different people. I'm thinking of mine as a navigation lock (implemented as a shift - I know there's versions of the Cherry MX that support physically locked keys,) now, with the editing block on the home row and the row immediately above it, with the arrow keys on WASD.
I'd use Fn for accessing function keys...
Of course, that begs the question... do I really even need two separate Fn shifts? The only inaccessible keys with that layout would be the numpad, which... isn't really needed all that much (except for Alt codes, but I use those rarely enough that I can use charmap instead.)
So, here's what I want on the top row:
Esc should be the `/~ key in Fn mode
1 through =/+ keys should be F1 through F12 in Fn mode
(I'm guessing this is how the top row is already implemented...)
Row 2:
W should be Up Arrow
U should be Insert
I should be Home
O should be PgUp
Row 3:
CapsLk should be a physically locking Fn
A should be Left Arrow
S should be Down Arrow
D should be Right Arrow
J should be Delete
K should be End
L should be PgDn
Row 4:
Leave it alone.
Row 5:
Keys should be in this order:
Ctrl Win Alt Space Menu RtFn RtAlt RtCtrl
RtFn shouldn't be physically locking. It'll be useful for when I quickly need to navigate in the middle of something, but don't want to lock it down.
(And, I want Menu there because that's as close to the spacebar as I can get it, perfect for using it as a scroll button.)
so basically you want the HHKB style with some modifications; I actually want a perfectly normal layout lol! I do my shortcuts with autohotkey so I need the standard layout else it messes up my hotkeys.
so there should be an hhkb version and a regular version... :)
You know, is that your attempt at a Geekhack logo, or something else, lowpoly? (It IS supposed to be a G, after all.)
Also, I think it goes without saying that we want full 6-key rollover on this thing.
This thing is gonna be low enough volume that I doubt it'll add all that much to the cost.
(That is the problem with the Cherry vs. Alps thing, it'll add significantly to the cost to add another keyswitch type, unless they can use the same PCB... but they'll still need different keycaps.)
So, if it were a Cherry-based board, I'd want 59 MX1A-E1DWs (blue, with diode, PCB mount,) 1 MX1A-31DW (alternate action, with diode, PCB mount,) and 1 MX1A-F1DW (green, with diode, PCB mount.)
But, you might ship it in this layout, for that cluster:
RtAlt RtFn Menu RtCtrl
That way, it looks like a standard Windows 104-key layout in that cluster, and it IS reprogrammable, so I could just change it to be how I want it.
I also like how the happy hacking keyboard sticks the #|\ key (left of 1) on the opposite side of the keyboard, for me this is a key I use quite a bit so having it easily accessible is somewhat essential. I'd also prefer the right alt to be swapped with the 'G' key as it's an Alt Gr for me and the closer it is to the center the better. The key right of shift added on the 105 keyboard is really not important.
ESDF for the arrow key cluster actually makes more sense (which is what the NEO does,) as that moves right arrow to the F key, but WASD is more standard for an arrow cluster. (Think first person shooters.)NEO uses ESDF because then home and end can be put to the left and right of the horizontal arrow keys. Which is quite elegant. But WASD is well established which I prefer.
Oh, and what's your opinion on making Caps Lock a physical Fn lock, with an alternate action switch?I think using CapsLock as LCtrl is highly popular so many would be put off by that switch. But I understand the reasoning behind it. I think we need both.
Sorry about the triple-post, but do you mind if I post this on other forums to gauge interest in a production version?
Not at all, thanks for doing this.
I bow deeply and humbly while retreating backwards for geekhack's new king.
lowpoly what r u planning in terms of manufacturing? To take it to an oem manufacturer? Is that different from what metadot guy did?
(And yes I think we'll need multiple versions of this (both layout and switches) to make everyone here happy ;) I'd definitely only want normal layout (and preferably with normal function keys since I use them a LOT, both for custom functions and for programs, tho I might buy it even if they were just tied to function key). The trackpoint I could live either with or without.) But normal layout on the remaining keys is a must... at least on one version of the board...
That is elegant, but my idea does put End on a home key (whereas the NEO layout doesn't,) and it puts Home one row above a home key.
Of course, maybe I could just do what wellington said, and solder in my own alternate action switch. :P
Row 2:
W should be Up Arrow
U should be Insert
I should be Home
O should be PgUp
Row 3:
CapsLk should be a physically locking Fn
A should be Left Arrow
S should be Down Arrow
D should be Right Arrow
J should be Delete
K should be End
L should be PgDn
Different switch brands will be more difficult. Everything that requires a different pcb layout will be a lot of work
I wonder what the minimum manufacturing lot would be for something like this. Would they need to make 1000 keyboards to be even interested?
.
7:08 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leJeemeiWNA) :eek:
An OEM is probably not interested in a small run.
I've posted it on The Tech Report, and there's some weak interest there. But not much.
We're going for "HHKB layout, but better" and (with a Cherry blue model) Das III feel.
by the way I'd probably never use the usb port and power adapter thing. if it saves any significant money, maybe a version without those (and without trackpoint) as a lower cost version maybe.
Oh, and dont forget european layouts.
So, I'm thinking, the following configurations...
60 MX Black + 1 Grey Linear
59 MX Black + 1 Alt Action + 1 Grey Linear
60 MX Brown + 1 Grey Tactile
59 MX Brown + 1 Alt Action + 1 Grey Tactile
60 MX Blue + 1 Green
59 MX Blue + 1 Alt Action + 1 Green
61 Strongman White
61 Strongman Black
Of course, right there, that means that you've got two different PCBs (unless lowpoly has an idea for running both Cherry MX and Strongman switches on the same PCB,) eight different switch configurations to run on the production line, and two different sets of keycaps (and that's just for one color.)
it should definitely come with a set of dip switches that do stuff. For instance control/capslock switching can be done that way right? That way a bunch of minor variations can be taken care of with dip switches.
And there's even been mention of giving it blank keycaps. ;)
Edit: If you're going to use that approach, I'd do f/c and g/v. B is a bit of a reach for a left hand key.
You guys have all added some interesting changes but wouldn't that add to the difficulty of getting it mass produced.
I am thinking of the guy that did the Das keyboard. It was probably a big deal just to get the one designed and built.
I wonder what the minimum manufacturing lot would be for something like this. Would they need to make 1000 keyboards to be even interested?
I could be all wrong here, please don't flame me.
well thats for the manufacturer to figure out, right? Or are you seriously thinking of taking a soldering iron in your basement and pumping out custom versions for individual geekhacker requests? Good god man, hand over the manufacturer to an oem and be done with it! You'll make a killing with the licensing fees.
the different switches will be crucial to its wide appeal I think, since if the poll above is any indication, there's no huge agreement on what switches geekhackers would prefer. There will probably be a cherry pcb and an alps pcb at the very least.
I don't know. There may be buzz, but unless Lowpoly has something going on on his end then the buzz is limited to geekhack. We have around 200 users. And not all may be interested.
An OEM is probably not interested in a small run. I would think they need some kind of volume before they consider it.
A run of 100 units would be a specialty item, and quite expensive not doubt.
TR would be a good site, too - there's a few clicky keyboard fans there, including one of their writers. Basically, I think we should hit major sites that have liked either the Das III or the HHKB. We're going for "HHKB layout, but better" and (with a Cherry blue model) Das III feel.
DSI can OEM. They were suggesting that they could OEM a split-ergo board with blue-Cherries that I had wanted, but since it wasn't going to be a big run, they weren't interested. I didn't get any details, so you may want to contact them and see what they offer. George Tsai was the person with DSI that contacted me. here is the thread with a few details: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=713.
LOL again :) I have the john adams series in my netflix queue, hated that I missed it cuz I dont have cable ;)my dad bought it on DVD and says it's excellent
I think the most important feature of this board is that you don't have to leave the home row.
Something I'll note... there's some more interest on that one forum I posted it on, but several people there have mentioned that they'd like a bezel for it. So, you might consider adding a bezel, even though I personally prefer the bezel-less design.
And that's a strong argument for making Caps Lock an alternate action Fn, because then it would be on the home row, and you truly wouldn't have to leave home row for a lot of stuff.I usually press the Fn key with my thumb, that's why they're next to the space bar.
Something I'll note... there's some more interest on that one forum I posted it on, but several people there have mentioned that they'd like a bezel for it. So, you might consider adding a bezel, even though I personally prefer the bezel-less design.Maybe they didn't click the link and see the other pics? The case is hard to see in the first pic. Maybe post this (http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/6573/08frontfloatinggs6.jpg) and this (http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4264/09rearfloatingyt6.jpg) as well? Personally, I'm not too happy with a bigger case because one of my goals was to make the case as small as possible. But I'm not sure if I fully understand what's meant by 'bezel'.
I'm afraid you DO understand what is meant by bezel. So, they want it to be bigger than it is. ;)
But, I went ahead and posted the pics.
That reminds me... the remapping software... what platforms does it run on?
I'm assuming Windows only? Linux and Mac support would be a good selling point.
And they're asking for a frickin' Model M-sized bezel, on TR. Well, enough to put buttons on the front NOT vertically, anyway, so at least Unicomp SpaceSaver/EnduraPro sized.Thanks for running the TR thread. :)
Come to think of it, even if it were just rolled over, it'd help it look more finished.
Maybe the keys being so exposed will increase the chance of damage to them?I dropped the whole board from 3 feet and nothing happened. It landed on the case though.
I dropped the whole board from 3 feet and nothing happened. It landed on the case though.
What kind of damage szenario could that be? If I dropped my HHKB on the floor I wouldn't expect it to survive that.
The keycaps are tough as can be. You'd need a big hammer to break them.
I did that. Looking at it now I should have done it again after stripping the first paint job.
Thinking more about the 90 degree bend I don't think it would look good. Just look at the bottom pic and the radius that is created by a bend. You can't do cut-outs with that radius.
Anyway, I don't think the case can be mass produced like I did it here. So it would either have to be plastic or machined Aluminum. No bend problem with either of these. The question is just how the edge should look.
And while the keys are tough, how tough are the key switches?The switch is weaker than the cap, no question. But you'd have to do crash tests to see what happens. The cap might just slide off. Or the upper part of the switch falls off but you can clip it back together. On the outer rows I pull the keycaps off all the time without using a keycap puller. Not as precise but so far no problems.
Its probably nothing, but now is the time to bring these questions to the fore.Of course, I appreciate it. Let me know when I get too defensive. :)
If its plastic of machined aluminum, then the 180 degree bend that bhtooefr suggested would look nicer. Then again, it just needs to look finished, so some kind of rounding at the top would work. Visually, I would suggest that there be no sharp edges.
The switch is weaker than the cap, no question. But you'd have to do crash tests to see what happens. The cap might just slide off. Or the upper part of the switch falls off but you can clip it back together. On the outer rows I pull the keycaps off all the time without using a keycap puller. Not as precise but so far no problems.
Maybe it's time for a 3D model now. I really wanted to avoid that. :) With something like this, you have to see it.
True if you don't change the defaults. But if I change the mouse settings when using a Compaq MX 11800, it works fine on my 1900x1200.
neat. photoshop? I agree about the bezels, absolute blasphemy.
It sounds like I'm a minority voice here but I say again if you go too far from a normal layout you're going to appeal to a handful of geekhackers with esoteric typing habits rather than to the masses -- and I would hope this beautiful design is destined for the masses ;)
True if you don't change the defaults. But if I change the mouse settings when using a Compaq MX 11800, it works fine on my 1900x1200 (and I like my pointer real fast).
While I really like the design, this is not a keyboard for the masses.
It has no blinking lights, no multimedia keys, no flluff.
I would think this keyboard would appeal to people in the same way that the HHKB, Topre, Filco....keyboards do.
I think they should make rubber dome versions of these keyboards for people who like the styling but aren't really interested in the switch technology.
What would rubber domes give you? Aside from a cost savings.
Nice looking, compact keyboards? :)
lolz, i has can pimpt yer keyzbort !!!Well done. :) Doing the backspace change would have been hard to do without machinery and nothing to solder it to. But the main reason not to do it was that I like backspace and enter more apart. And I have backspace on Fn+space which I really, really like.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=362&stc=1&d=1229214023)
Blasphemy, surely! Just as those bezel lovers! (it looks much better without).
It got the backspace, ~` solution from the HHKB. Two keys intentionally left blank as I didn't know what to put there by default - me, as a colemak user I like BS on the position of Caps Lock, but that's not very mainstream.
Interesting location. I find small trackballs (like the one in my Compaq) too slow on big resolutions. I wonder if something like a Blackberry trackball could be added to the top of the space bar key with some firmware so fast movements would move it further.Or like the one in the Apple Mighty Mouse. I thought about putting the mouse buttons directly into the space bar but decided against it because I feared that the added weight and cables might affect easy movement.
I think they should make rubber dome versions of these keyboards for people who like the styling but aren't really interested in the switch technology.From a sales POV definitely not a bad idea.
After all, lowpoly may decide that what he wants is to sell it to five of his friends for whom he'll pick up a soldering gun and put the boards together in his basement and that will be that.I spent so much time on this, I'm not going to make another one by hand. So it's all or nothing. :)
*shudder*
;)
I spent so much time on this, I'm not going to make another one by hand. So it's all or nothing
The problem is, every single variant will greatly increase the production costs, especially if there are PCB changes or case changes involved.
I don't see this as a main stream keyboard. Its for a niche market, no?
However, especially in this market, 99% of people are thinking, "why should I spend more than $10 on a keyboard? That $10 keyboard will do everything I need it to."
eeexcellent :)
Lowpoly, honestly, just make sure that this board doesnt meet the same fate of all the other boards that we all like on geekhack - difficult to find and buy because they've deliberately shot themselves in the foot by deliberately trying to appeal to a hyper-specialized demography or market. Thats the self-limiting cycle I'd love to see your board eventually break out of. Geekhackers love your board, but dont limit yourself to the geekhacker market. All of our complaints of unicomp, dsi, etc have been their lack of imagination in marketing (and in not producing obvious variations). Thats what you should avoid! Think big with this one, please, I'm begging you-- otherwise yours will be merely another "neat" specialized keyboard that eventually geekhackers will be talking about saying "now why didnt he put in this and market to that? He would have sold a million more and secretaries everywhere would have benefited". Break out of that cycle of limited marketing imagination that all the good boards out there seem to be confined to.
my 2 cents :)
The problem is, every single variant will greatly increase the production costs, especially if there are PCB changes or case changes involved.
Variants should be added one at a time.
The problem is, with the economy the way it is, even if he DOES market the hell out of the things (we're talking throwing more money than even Microsoft does at marketing one keyboard model,) and gets them in every store, the things won't sell that well.
Let's face it, this is a luxury product we're talking about.
I don't see this as a main stream keyboard. Its for a niche market, no?The layout makes it a niche product. You have to educate yourself to use it. The mass won't do that. An optional docking station might be nice that adds the F-key row and cursor block. I think I mentioned this one before.
That's your top of the line model.Yes and the other way round would be hard unless you're in China.
Expand downwards from there.
Personally I think that the fact that keyboards havent been fettishized for the masses yet, and remain a fetish only for uber-geeks, represents one of the most historically huge marketing opportunities in history.When I think about marketing, those executives come to my mind that use a $400 fountain pen to do some signatures, then move back to their $5 keyboard for the rest of the day.
What is this brand's niche? Obviously, the halo board (the one that epitomizes the brand) is the one in this thread, but what's supposed to make this brand special?
The layout makes it a niche product. You have to educate yourself to use it. The mass won't do that. An optional docking station might be nice that adds the F-key row and cursor block. I think I mentioned this one before.
But, that is an interesting approach... that requires a redesign of the whole thing to make it TRULY modular.
Well, I was more asking lowpoly what it was. ;)
modularity
However, it has a bezel.
The bezel-less design is part of what makes this keyboard so distinctive, and it would be quite difficult to implement with modules, unless you had unsightly edge connectors or something...
Well, also, note that his board has literally NO space on the sides. There would have to be some form of unsightly spacer at the very least.
Below the key level it does, but then you'll have keycaps touching, which doesn't work. ;)
I already thought about magnets clipping the modules together, however, it might not hold up when you pick the whole assembly up. Like when you have guests and somebody decides to move your 'board around resulting in a part falling to the floor. So, something like a docking station (with F1-F12 and cursor block) might provide more stability.
Wellington, do you think about F-keys as a module and cursor as another? That would leave a hole where F-keys and cursor block meet.
There are a few millimeters space left and right. Should be enough for magnets, maybe even clips.
Note that the other device uses its own case to cover the interface.
falling apart when moved may actually be okay -- the logitech dinovo was exactly like that and it sold like a blockbuster.
Also true that some kind of docking station may work, but what are you envisioning for that? Wouldnt that add height to the board?
if you have connectors for the modules (instead of independent wired or wireless connections) then yes there will have to be some kind of hole for the connector -- But even here I think there may be ways to minimize the aesthetics of it so it remains sleek. For instance: a ribbon connector could connect from underneath and minimize the need to put a hole on the side of the modules and board. If you wanted more rigidity it would be threaded thru a spacer that clips to the underside of board/module.
This could work for F keys too (tho for F keys I still think that 2 versions of the board would be best, one hhkb version that uses Fn key, and a normal version that just has them built in normally). So the modules would really be more of a left-side and right-side issue.
what do you think of ribbon cables from underneath, connecting left/right modules to the board? Is that a possible connector that could be used here? If I remember from pics of the g80 3000 (or one of those cherry boards that someone on geekhack took apart), the numpad was connected just by a ribbon cable. The clip that its threaded thru could posible hold the module/board together relatively rigidly - or just leave them magnetic and take-apart able (you could even dispense with the magnets like the dinovo and have them put-next-to-each-other-able.)
you are a master of design. there is no way a bank wont fund this if you stick these pics on a powerpoint presentation. I'm not even kidding :)
Damn, too bad you live in Germany. I would love to work with you on a design for a split-ergo 'board.
Should there be a ScrollLock module that should fit in there? It would be too expensive and nobody would buy it.
Well, on a non-ergo board, GHB works perfectly. (No jokes about date rape. :p)
I'm right-handed, so HJN would work for me, but for a lefty, FGV would be optimal.
(Although, I occasionally use the TrackPoint with my left hand, so GHB is perfect on a non-ergo board, which I prefer.)
I can use non-IBM pointing sticks, it just takes some getting used to. But, yes, it would be a good idea to contact IBM to license the technology. Other companies have done it before - see the Toshiba AccuPoint, a licensed TrackPoint.
I think you should see if costar is interested - they already have experience with the multiple pcb's (and multiple types of switches) on the Filco line.
(and if they're also producing the das, then they also have experience with a random keyboard geek deciding to market his keyboard design and having a successful product as a result :)
-Where did the mouse buttons come from? Are they original from the donor board (they don't look familiar), or did you custom fab them? If so, how?
-How did you make the aluminum enclosure? Do you have access to a machine shop, or did you manage it with home tools?
Trackpoint
I'll note that I'm fine with a plastic case.
The Tecra M10 and A10 have it. (At least I'm pretty sure it's still an AccuPoint...)
For a while, my main computer was a Toshiba Satellite Pro 405CS - a Pentium 75 machine with an AccuPoint I - Toshiba's licensed clone of the TrackPoint III, IIRC. Yes, it had negative intertia. :)
Edit: Yes, it is an AccuPoint II, so... they've still got a license for it. :)
The case was done with hand tools, a Dremel and a power drill. I did the bends with an old toy vise I still had.
Two Trackpoints may be easier for pointing. However you have to access keys across them, the H for example. Could interrupt the flow.
Two Trackpoints may be easier for pointing. However you have to access keys across them, the H for example. Could interrupt the flow.
Out of curiosity, how many hours of labor would you estimate you put into this thing in total?
As a test, I just tried typing on a trackpoint board with my hands shifted over to emulate having the trackpoint at HJN - it didn't seem to be a problem for me.
But you have short travel keys like scissors?
lowpoly, you need one of these (http://www.oobject.com/category/video-list-of-3d-printers-in-action/) "rapid prototyping" machines ;)
UIJ would actually be a better position than JNM - moving up is always easier than moving down.
You might have been kidding, but I actually think that this kind of thing might be the way to go for those of us with extreme keyboard/input device fetishes.
lowpoly, you need one of these (http://www.oobject.com/category/video-list-of-3d-printers-in-action/) "rapid prototyping" machines ;)
Interestingly, it actually seemed like less of an issue if it was positioned even one step further to the right, at JNM, and it would require ZERO reach to get to it from there, so maybe that's worth trying.
UIJ would actually be a better position than JNM - moving up is always easier than moving down.
lowpoly, I posted these links elsewhere (and you've probably seen these), but for a design guy I imagine you'd be interested in stuff like this:
Three kinds of moldable plastic if you want to mold your own parts:
plastic pellets called "shapelock" (http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/000623.php)
"metal clay" (http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/000181.php) (looks like silver after its dried)
"magic-sculp" (http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/000676.php)
Actually, something like http://www.emachineshop.com/ (had been mentioned here before) might work really well for metal cases.
I have to start comparing prices. For pcbs as well.
.
As for pricing, it will be impossible to beat the price of the M10. Mine would have lower volumes, and pointing stick, USB hub and programmable controller add features that the M10 doesn't have so it's hard to compare anyway.
I was just saying that I was unsure that I would pay this sort of money for Cherry blues.
I'm also working on a switch. Mechanical but with a long tactile curve like a well known Japanese capacitive switch. A first trial setup went well. But this will take months at least and probably someone else will come out with something similar before I get it finished. Also it will not be cheap. But cool. :cool:
I would pay 500$ for a black programmable backlit ergoplus. :)
Does this keyboard fit in the Motion field case?
Link: http://www.tabletpc2.com/Review-MotionBluetoothKeyboardrandFieldCase.htm
Thanks for keeping us updated lowpoly. When your vision finally goes production, you can count on several purchases from me and all the free advertising on geekhack you want. :)
Quick question, will the switches be PCB or plate mounted?
But IMHO the sudden appearance of additional characters after using some "rolled" Fn-combo is a no-go and I vote strongly against it.This is one of the things that might lead to a situation the Das III has right now. I'm going to avoid it. I don't know what the possibilities of the controller programming are so I have to get back to this later to define the correct rollover behavior.
This keyboard would interest me (enough to consider buing) if:
1. The trackpoint was flawless and had dedicated buttons.
2. See 1.
3. It had at least a FN key.
4. Was completely flat (easy carry, packing etc)
5. It had no metal bottom (that's silly in a portable keyboard).
6. It had quiet, light touch tactile switches (cherry browns, strogmans with cut springs).
PS: Don't get me started ... :)
What is the status with this keyboard? Any idea if/when it may be available?
1. The mouse buttons from that thinkpad below are dedicated buttons.
2. See 1. :)
3. I though those were the windows / command keys. I suppose I could reprogram any key, but a FN key is a FN key because when you press the combination, the keyboard and not the drivers generate the correct key code, like for arrows, function keys etc.
4. If it's not completely flat, at least not so angled that putting it in a laptop bag beside the laptop scratches both in time. My point is, the more angle, the less portability. A little angle doesn't hurt at all, if the edge is rounded.
5. If it's almost the same weight, the metal it is. I think it will take some kind of alloy, not simple aluminium to keep it light though. :)
6. The more switches, the better. Light BS, Browns, Reds, Blues, Strongmans - all good. :)
--------------------------
7. Maybe you can think of a system to let the enterprising portable user stitch some velcro patches on the bottom. Like some holes in the case, and an easy way to diassemble and put it back. Screws! :)
8. HARDWARE support for Colemak right from the start, without drivers. Dip-switches, etc. It's easy to move the keys around, especially with Cherry switches. And it would be a great marketing tool. Behold, the bearded woman, err, the first Colemak keyboard. It's QWERTY too, just switch the keys around and flip a switch, no drivers. :) My bad if there was a Colemak keyboard already.
9 Make your own layout for a ****load of money, with hardware support. Don't make it programmable, just a ask a lot of money for a reprogramming and a keycap replacement. :)
7 There is self adhesive velcro. Why do you want it?
1 On the prototype the trackpoint buttons are directly connected to the trackpoint pcb. Maybe you can see it in the pic. It's the same with the pointing stick samples I have. Should be a non-issue.
3 You can re-program the FN key as well. I think the final version will have three additional layers instead of one so this may come handy.
5 The prototype has a wall thickness of 0.8mm.
6 Not sure about Alps. I haven't looked into it closely but I think there will be no room for plate mounting. Have to check that.
7 There is self adhesive velcro. Why do you want it?
8 As long as you use blank keys, no problem. :) I have yet to figure out my keycap options. What I found so far doesn't look too good and I'm admittedly procrastinating here. Switching caps around doesn't work with current MX caps.
9 :)
3. I hope you get the hardware versus software thing I am saying here, because I don't get what you want to say .. please explain.
6. Ok, I don't think Alps are such a demanded option anyway ... but as a price issue, to me the fake alps sound cheaper, hence bigger profit, or lower loss. :)
7. I want to use the keyboard directly from a bag for a tablet pc, like this:Show Image(http://www.tabletpc2.com/Graphics/Reviews/Motion%20FeildCase-Bluetoothkeyboard/WithRoll.JPG)Show Image(http://www.tabletpc2.com/Graphics/tablet%20photos/Motion%20Photos/fieldcase.jpeg)
The glue is hard to remove, hard to customize the patches of velcro, and I would rather have the option to remove them easily. Plus, the velcro would make the keyboard slide all over the table, If I get it out of the case.
8. I guess you're referring to the different shape for differrent rows. To get some keys that would be swappable hence flat, please investigate the keycaps from flat programmable keyboards (with or without relegendable keycaps) that use the MX switches - Tipro makes some for example. Just a suggestion ... :)
Just stumbled across this. While my personal tastes would include an editing block and cursor keys, your work is bad-ass and should it become available for purchase in the future, I'd snap one up. Nice work..
Actually you can slap on a CE sign if you're confident that radiation will be within the allowed limits. It's just that you're liable if someone complains about EMC issues and the device is found to be non-compliant.
It can't be that strict really. There are many CE-marked devices on the market where you really wonder whether they ever saw an EMC test. Some cell phone chargers seem to be pretty nasty (even by the standards of small switching power supplies), apparently still being able to generate heavy interference in the FM broadcast band.
A keyboard should be a relatively uncritical component, no huge currents or anything - in my experience, it's the data transmission that's most critical (oldschool edgy 5Vpp signals, no surprise there). If you keep half an eye on potential EMC issues during development and do some testing with a decently sensitive LW/MW/SW/FM receiver (DE1103, E5, ICF-SW7600GR or such) without any indications of excessive radiation, you should generally be fine. Of course it would be advantageous if you could afford a 2-layer PCB, close-by bypassing of the controller (and following other guidelines for RF-level design) would also seem like a good idea.
I guess the EMC issue explains why the Cherry switch pcbs have a 2nd copper layer on the top side?
The white one looks incredible. When can I get one : o
is that ambient occlusion I see? :) Looks pro man, love itIt's a skydome. Didn't work as well on the keys as in the car scene I re-used for this. Diffuse illumination is baked so a 2048x1024 image will render in under a minute. This will finally allow me to render 360 degree animations for various color combinations.
My only concern is that you completely removed the grave/tilde key, and this key would be important to *nix users. I've seen some keyboard manufacturers try to put this key in the place of the left logo key, and that's just clunky. The only good solution I've seen is on the Sun Type 6 keyboards that split the long backspace into grave/tilde and backslash/pipe keys and put the backspace in the place of the original backslash/pipe position right above enter.Grave/tilde is on Fn/Esc. I'll probably keep the large Backspace key to keep the layout standard. There are enough keys for reprogramming. I personally do not like Backspace above Enter because I sometimes hit Enter instead of Backspace. But everything is re-progammable.
Also, I'm sure people have brought this up, but you could replace capslock with control and both control keys with FN keys.
The white one looks incredible. When can I get one : o
I like the concept. Have you considered adding the middle button? It makes scrolling with the trackpoint so much easier!Missed your post, sorry. I'm undecided on the third button. ATM I'd rather use one of the keyboard keys for that (or for right click) or both buttons together. Have to think about it.
seriously low-po, send it to market already!
Missed your post, sorry. I'm undecided on the third button. ATM I'd rather use one of the keyboard keys for that (or for right click) or both buttons together. Have to think about it.
Wait..what..a trackball in place of the trackpoint? Hmm I guess it indeed would get a little bit too small. Or is my space bar splitting trackball dream coming true? ;)I talked to a supplier about pointing sticks. Turned out he sells these trackballs as well. They're small enough to integrate them into the the space bar. The way they are it wouldn't work right now though.
I'd like a third button/scroll wheel combo. My only concern is that adding things deflate the minimal design. Which is really stunning! Wow (I'd prefer matte black though).
The 3D design is very iPod-esc, that is, the graphical marketing efforts. I know this isn't possible (small series and all), but I'd love to see that in a wide rainbow of colors. They would look great, side by side. Then even girls would buy one. The pink and such.
Ditto. Can I get mine in white?
Three mouse buttons is a MUST. I didn't realize until now it has only two. Middle button is the standard way of pasting the clipboard content in most Unix systems, and it's used for many other kinds of useful things. It wouldn't be quite right if it had only two. Just my 2¢.I agree, I'm just in denial. :smile:
I kind of like the trackball-in-spacebar idea.Split the two buttons? Have a pic? I'm slow today.
if you split the two buttons into three buttons, make a "V" shape for the cut (like on some ibm thinkpads), where the inside of the V is the third button. It will be easier that way to feel where the third button is with your finger without having to look down.
Repost of a 'shop:One of the reasons I like this is that I like Erase-Eaze. The ball in the pic wouldn't fit though, it would have to be a bit smaller. The small trackballs I posted could be either integrated into the space bar or put on a small post that went through a hole in the space bar.
If so, you'd have to vary which thumb you use depending on which mouse button you want to press, which can become problematic.Good point. I came across this myself yesterday while playing around with the mini pretending to have a trackball. I think my favorite position for a small trackball would be between the space bar and the "B" key, taking away some real estate from the B key as well. That way it could be rolled with the index finger.
Split the two buttons? Have a pic? I'm slow today.
low-po, I have to tell you, you've been 'teasing' all of us for like two years now with these beautiful designs. You're working us up into a frenzy. No fair, its time to put out. ;)
What about a split spacebar with some sort of three-way switch in the center for buttons? Maybe similar to the four way and press down switches commonly used on phones. Left and right could be the mouse buttons, up and down the scroll wheel and press the middle click.Not sure if this could be used with the thumb? Using a joystick-like switch coming out somewhere where the current switches are. Just played around with the prototype and the current button position and action is hard to beat though.
Re: the V shaped cut on the mouse buttons, dont worry about it, I didnt realize the mouse buttons were that far apart. I just meant this design on the thinkpad: [update: ya, IBI got it]I guess that's why I didn't get it. Maybe I could make the whole metal stripe between the switches another switch which would keep the current design. Or add a horitontal plastic stripe between the current switches. Or a combination of the two. One of these would be my preferred solution.
Use a small thumb-operated trackball on the side, near Backspace, and two or more buttons on the top rightI'd prefer it on a post between space bar and B. But if it's small and rolling easily there should be no problem with space bar integration. Couldn't act as a switch then of course.
I'd think a trackball on the space bar would require a lot of very fine control to avoid accidentally hitting the bar.
Err...
after pondering it for a moment, I'd say "Trackball by Right Shift, buttons on outward face" for a better layout.
I think the whole point is to avoid moving your hand from the home row, so a trackball that far away wouldn't work.
Compared to a trackball of the size being discussed, I think the trackpoint will be the more usable pointing device. Can you put the trackball someplace out of the way where it can be easily ignored, and retain the trackpoint?Too expensive and still the home row problem with the trackball.
I'm not much of a trackball user, but from what I've read on these forums, the trackball really only shines when you can flick it and let it spin freely. If I'm not mistaken that would require a larger ball. A trackball as small as the sample pictured a page or two back reminds me more of an Apple Mighty Mouse ball. The user experience with a ball like that is more akin to a touchpad: roll a little, reset finger position, roll a little more, repeat... I suppose this discussion will be moot if you can't get the manufacturer to make micro-trackballs that don't click as they're rolled.Good point on the size.
It seems what you would need is a ball similar to the free-spinning wheel on Logitech's Revolution mice. Does such a thing exist? I've never used a Blackberry with trackball. How do those compare?I think the small ones I posted here are the ones used on the Blackberry. At least, that's what the vendor insinuated.
I think the small ones I posted here are the ones used on the Blackberry. At least, that's what the vendor insinuated.
There are also tiny mousepads available for mobile phones that (maybe) could be applied to the top of the space bar. Didn't find simple OEM versions yet.
btw I really like the 'old school' beige/black model:
Show Image(http://www.gesticulations.com/public/gallery/Images/fun/lowpo_old_school.png)
You should call that model "the antique".
That would be cream and (dark) chocolate. You need to check your contrast. ;)
low-po, based on your meeting today, what would you say are the main hurdles for VC?As of now the difficulty to estimate how many people will buy it.
:smile:
As of now the difficulty to estimate how many people will buy it.
I mean, the keyboard market is a bit like the sneaker market. The actual size is vast. And its that huge size that provides so much opportunity for innovation, specialization, differentiation, branding etc.(Last post was before your edit).
The challenge here isnt the market itself, which is there and is unlimited. The challenge here is in branding and in the right marketing to reach the core trend-setters among the consumers. To "create a market" for style and innovation and ergonomics when sorrounded by mass market keyboards that lack all three.
I'll try the sneaker example next time. The marketing argument may backfire. Reaching the core trend-setters may be as difficult as intentionally producing a song that will reach #1. Creating a market may also sound like $$$ to a VC.
may be as difficult as intentionally producing a song that will reach #1.
The cream/brown looks awesome. :eek:
I agree on the cream version. That chocolate trackpoint is just the coolest looking thing.
lowpoly, sent you a PM.
lowpo - maybe on the preview site, let users put their names on an email list for release information, that may give you some numbers in terms of interest (along with site visits).Will do. Also different languages.
Also it would not take very much to put up a table at your local mall on one weekend, take your mockup with you, put up a sign announcing the product, and video tape people's comments and responses to it and ask them if they'd buy it and etc.Not sure if this will work with such a specialized product. This was actually one of the counter-arguments in the meeting: advantages not immediately obvious. I should make a pic that shows the "never leave home" scenario. Would have been a nice domain name as well. But it's taken.
You could even hire a company to do that sort of basic polling or market research, it wouldnt cost that much, and may give you more ammunition with the VC guys.I first have to digest that meeting fully.
You need to capture the 'gut-level' response that your keyboard elicits. If the VC guys dont see that phenomenon, then you need to make them realize that the consumer market does have that kind of reaction to it. I mean your board is basically the ipod of keyboards. You only need to convince your VC guys of that consumer fact.I actually showed some quotes I collected over the months (and thanks for adding another one, btw. :smile:). I have to talk to a real VC next and continue with the preview site.
Cursor "Inverted T" on J K L and I.
Home/end on ; and '
Pg up/dn on U and O
Insert on M
Print Screen on P
Scroll Lock and Pause on < and >
Let me know what you think of this.
Print Screen on P
Scroll Lock and Pause on < and >
Also, low, can you put the website for the keyboard in your signature here? I always have trouble finding it. Thanks!Done. But there's nothing more than in the thread. Preview site coming.
personally i'd like to see this:Thanks for the pic. I agree it seems more logical. Unless you claim any rights, I'd like to go with it. I put home/end on the home row because I use it more often than pgup/dn. I scroll with the mouse or the trackpoint, I guess that's why pgup/dn doesn't get much use anymore.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2683&stc=1&d=1245175692)
I think left/home and right/end placed on left side and right side of the inverted T (as above) is intuitive when you're typing. Thats how my own autohotkey layout is, anyway. I think its intuitive because both keys point to left side or right side when you're reading horizontally left-to-right on the page. Similarly Pageup/dn stacked vertically is intuitive because you're going vertically up and down with them.
H (control H) is backspace on a lot of systems anyway. I think unix based systems. Would be nice to have the option to have it near home row.I have backspace on Fn+space. No position change necessary.
Are those keys used so often that you'd want them on the home row? If so, then "<" and ">" are probably fine, but "P" which has to be less used than pageup should maybe move.These are not on the home row? I only want them on the right half to keep the left half free for user layouts or sound. So PrtSc/ScrlLock/Pause will go to , . - now.
Unless you claim any rights, I'd like to go with it.
These are not on the home row? I only want them on the right half to keep the left half free for user layouts or sound. So PrtSc/ScrlLock/Pause will go to , . - now.
I'll make a render of the final layout.
Thanks for the replies and sorry for answering late, I needed some time off. I'll keep the comments on the cream version in mind. :smile:
Will do. Also different languages.
Cursor "Inverted T" on J K L and I.
Home/end on ; and '
Pg up/dn on U and O
Insert on M
Print Screen on P
Scroll Lock and Pause on < and >
Let me know what you think of this.
Although I'm not sure about the brown trackpoint, something closer to the colour of the case might be nicer.
If it's flattering you might also want to provide some pictures/renders of the keyboard in situ in front of a laptop or screen.There are some on page 16. Have to do "real ones".
Is the FN key the bottom left one?It's the one with the swirl to the left and right of the space bar. I want two Fn layers in the final version so the one on the right may become Fn2.
I think I prefer your layout to wellington's, although I would make one change and move the pgdn key to either N or M as I find it easier to access than U and it's also lower down than the PgUp position.I put mine together with ease of use in mind. I compromised on pgup/dn though. I think keys below the home row are easier to reach than above. There has to be a compromise between ease of use and immediate understanding and Welly's suggestion does that very well. You can easily re-program the 'board later.
I always wondered if this is something difficult to change in Firmware or is key layout hardwired in? The reason I'm asking is the 87U has the ability to download new firmware. Would be slick to "reflash" your keyboard - grab it and run.If it can d/l new firmware it should be possible. You'll need the software and data though.
lowpo - one question - will the Fn keys work if used in conjunction with CTRL and other keys? So for example, if you hit Fn+CTRL+Left("J"), will the cursor move one word at a time rather than one character at a time? (ie, for example, in MS Word).Yes, would be unusable otherwise, I guess.
Yes, would be unusable otherwise, I guess.
Looking at the layout now, I'd rather move Ins to the right of Del and the three rarely used ones to Q W E to reduce the clutter. I'd rather have empty keys around shift, enter and backspace. Less typos that way.
One more question: will your Fn key's keycode be recognizable (and capturable) within Autohotkey so that people can use autohotkey to assign/bind further shortcuts to your Fn key?No, the Fn key is internal. You can assign it to a different key but you can't use it as your Autohotkey Fn key.
Also one more suggestion: Fn+x/c/v = cut copy paste. I find generally moving fingers to control key for those forces one often to look down to put index finger correctly on x,c,v. Whereas with the thumb-actuated Fn key, index finger, middle finger, ring finger, can fall naturally onto x,c,v.If I'd add more keys it would be vol+- and mute on Fn-Z/X/C.
another suggestion: Fn+s,d => forward/back (browser media buttons)
and, perhaps, also Fn+r = maximize window; Fn+f=minimize window.
Anyway I think that covers all the major navigational things. :) You're right tho about finding the right balance between essential functions versus not over-complicating the interface. Some trial-and-error and 'tuning' work will clarify where that balance is. You can always practice your set up by putting it into autohotkey and seeing how it 'feels' to you.
As for Ctrl-XCV, I have that right now on Fn-SDF (Fn-A could be Ctrl-A).
Tho i'd argue moving it to xcv would be easy to remember?True. And almost as easy to reach. While I woudn't put this in the final layout (I edited after you posted), this would actually collide with the idea to put sound on Fn-ZXC. So maybe reserve Fn-ASD for the sound.
maybe Fn-A could be alt-tab? easy window switching.Good but also user setting, I think.
I moved Ins one to the left and put Del on the M key. I left Del on Fn+Backspace because it's easy to remember. However, Backspace and Del are each twice in the layout so I should remove the Del on Backspace. Too many delete keys may send the wrong message.
I do agree, from an aesthetic view, that repeating the delete key on the same layer seems a bit cluttered... though in my opinion, the functional advantage outweighs the slight decline in form.
I agree. Functionality is more important than concerns about people's first impressions. .
No, the Fn key is internal. You can assign it to a different key but you can't use it as your Autohotkey Fn key
I really like the current ideology and progressing implementation of the second layer, with one caveat: removing Delete from Fn+Backspace.I put it back. It doesn't make the layout look more complex so it doesn't hurt. The only reason I removed it was that people could ask, "why does this 'board need four delete keys? Will my typing be that bad?". The answer, of course, is convenience. I'll put it in the FAQ.
my guess is what lowpo is trying to do (with only having one delete key) is he's just moving the missing keys from arrow/numpad clusters onto the main part of the board (in a one-to-one way).Basically true. There are compromises however. And I want to look at the layout and say "that looks easy" which would be hard to press into a rule set. Of course it's tempting to add all kinds of useful shortcuts, especially with a 2nd function layer. But it won't work for everyone so people are better off doing their own layouts.
As opposed to making shortcuts for their own sake (ie, for instance by duplicating a key (like delete) or by adding functions like media forw/back buttons (or even cut/copy/paste which arent 'real' buttons but shortcuts on existing buttons)).
I think he feels that those things should be user-created on their own (ie, using autohotkey or some similar software key binding program).
(Or at least, I think thats the philosohpy that he seems to be pursuing). Whether to stick with that, or move into a slightly different philosophy that says "build-in shortcut keys if they make sense", is a different question. Personally I'd do the latter, but then risk 'busying up' the interface since adding shortcut keys (or duplicates) can easily become a slippery slope. And its true that I think he has a point that those things COULD be added by the user, separately, quite easily.
Thats cool. If the Fn key is assigned to a different key by the user (how is that done, btw - with dipswitches?), then can the user (using autohotkey or keybinding program) then assign the original swirl key to, say, the windows key? (to take an example). Just wondering how flexible/fixed will be the Fn-Swirl key. Thanks.Right now there is a text file with the rows and columns where you edit the scan cods for the keys. Then you start a small program, connect the keyboard and the layout is automatically downloaded to the keyboard. You can then disconnect the keyboard and connect to a different machine and it will have the new layout.
Right now there is a text file with the rows and columns where you edit the scan cods for the keys. Then you start a small program, connect the keyboard and the layout is automatically downloaded to the keyboard
Right now there is a text file with the rows and columns where you edit the scan cods for the keys. Then you start a small program, connect the keyboard and the layout is automatically downloaded to the keyboard
I also made a set of white keys but forgot my camera somewhere. Pics soon.
woah, the previews look super awesome.
i don't think the name matters much as long as it's a good product. i'm sure it would sell well even if you would name it something unimaginative like Model M.
I would name it the Model L, or the Realpoly, or the Majespoly.
Another thought. Might it be worth having a Fn-Lock feature? E.g. pressing both left and right Fn keys would set Fn-Lock, pressing both again would release it. (Or maybe pressing either on its own to release? Or even resetting after an inactive timeout period.)I cannot say if the final controller will allow this. There's always the possibility to use a mechanical locking switch. I agree that something like this would make sense, for ex. for using QWERTY on layer 1 and Colemak on layer 3. I have the mechanical switch already on my list as an add-on for the shop.
This might not be useful for the standard layout, but it could be handy for user defined keys.
I actually like the original working title: the trackpoint mini.Can't use Trackpoint, that would be an invitation for some nasty letters. I only use it with my prototype because it uses an actual Trackpoint. Even there I try to get rid of the word.
You never need to explain its use, it's right there in the name.
Rolls off the tongue rather pleasantly too.
Could you get sued for using the word "trackpoint"?
It is a great name and uses a very fashionable name element that does well. Also allows for a product line. Maybe pompous (like elitekeyboards) but that's marketing. Could have been worse. You could have been an American who orders keyboards in Taiwan and called it "Das Keyboard" or something. But this one has a definite positive cognitive association though.
I have to thank lal who gave me a good deal on the donor board. I hope you don't mind I used it for this.
I wish I could put more time into this right now.
lowpoly/ what controller are you using now? I heard that it's reprogrammable. - got interested.
@ lowpoly
I would like to have the shiny all black one with red/blue switches please thanks =D
What I would really love is Topre switches in this board even though I know that would drive the cost up.
lowploy,
Checked your site out again today noticed that you have put a few more renderings up. Just out of curiosity what are you using to render the boards?
lol I don't know about this one. I don't want two boards with similar form factor to use the same switches =D
It's the programmability of it that I'm after. Don't really like cherry blues and the browns feel flat after typing on a Topre. Don't know about the reds though I've not tried those. But if they have the high pitch click of the blues I will not like it.
Don't think I would like those either. Oh well when he gets it to market I guess I will just have to settle on browns.
That, and he might make just as much money selling the design to someone like Topre, and just let them deal with manufacturing and selling the 'boards.
i wont like those either; a linear brown will be even lighter than the browns. thats why i'm 'settling' for blues on this board i guess.
I can understand why lowpo pretty much has to go with cherries though, at least initially. Not much choice; they're the only ones being mass marketed right now. XM's arent great and have a much smaller market; BS would have to be outsourced to unicomp? Topres would be frightfully expensive; And all the other switches are dead.
What I would really love is Topre switches in this board even though I know that would drive the cost up.Topre switches are not very likely for various reasons. For ex. the controller will not work with capacitive switches, IMO.
lowploy,
Checked your site out again today noticed that you have put a few more renderings up. Just out of curiosity what are you using to render the boards?
I still want to eat the beige/brown one. Looks delicious.The common assembly line won't work with the configurator. Have to order parts and assemble them at the distributors. If I'd just decide on a few variants it might be possible. But the configurator is important for me. Production on demand via the internet. It's the future. Have a look at the preview dummy.
Come on lowpo, lets get this thing onto that taiwanese assembly line already :)
Anyway, I don't think this is an issue for him unless I stand corrected. The Cherries are available and reliable.Yepp. And they don't need a mounting plate. There's just no space for a regular mounting plate. It would require tests to see if a compromised mouting plate would work with Alps. With BS similar problems arise, for ex. it would be difficult to lead the membrane traces to the controller. It would require a sharp bend.
Topre switches are not very likely for various reasons. For ex. the controller will not work with capacitive switches, IMO.
The 3Ds were built in Rhino and Wings (http://www.wings3d.com), rendered in Maya.
I am also positive about the fukka's. But, first I thought I liked them more than the real Alps, but now they do feel a bit more heavy.
I have an idea for a switch with a smooth tactile curve. The first test worked quite well. So that would be a (remote) possibility.
not that i read all 27 pages but i am confused. are these for sale or will they be for sale, or do people WANT them to be for sale?
Lowpo's going to be rich - i'd bet money on that.
You have to login like three times, btw.
btw lowpo, this is intriguing. A smooth tactile curve? You mean same resistance level thruout the downstroke? Sounds interesting, potentially a 'meaty' feel. Which would be good.
The back plate of the keyboard reminds me of a few IBM keyboards that I have at the moment.They had this tapered bevel/chamfer that raised to the back (similar triangle wedge to what you have under there). I mention this because not only did it look good, but it felt solid (considering how tiny and thin it was) and left a nice gap so things like cords could be tucked a bit better.
Do you push down (just off the edge of the space bar) on those mouse tabs/buttons or do you push in? Or does it even mater because its similar to a lever?
I absolutely love that design, as I just looked down at my hands and that is where they are!!! What an easy and intuitive movement!
Do you have a problem with or would you imagine there being a problem with the edges of the keys exposed like that? (no protective border to the sides of the keyboard)
I have used and messed with hundreds of keyboards, and in light use (a slight bang or snag) keys do pop off or could break the stem.
I mention this because it looks like one could easily snag the outside edges of the keys.
What about the keys getting snagged; for example, reaching across your desk while wearing long sleeves?
The keys are not as protected as with a regular bezel. With normal use it shouldn't be a problem. I already dropped it from considerable height and the keys didn't get damaged. Of course this depends on the crash angle.Maybe you need to design a complementary "keyboard lid" which closes the top of the keyboard. Of course, you'd still need a way to keep it closed...
I can imagine that throwing it in a bag with lots of other stuff may result in scratches or a popped key. But you shouldn't do that anyway. Maybe a soft bag would be good as standard equipment.
And you shouldn't lift the whole 'board on one or two keys. Maybe this will require a sticker on the bottom.
Maybe you need to design a complementary "keyboard lid" which closes the top of the keyboard. Of course, you'd still need a way to keep it closed...this is what i thought, if nothing else, a cheap accessory like a lens cover: nothing fancy, no locking mechanism, just a tight fitting soft plastic top... enough to make it okay to store and transport.
Maybe you need to design a complementary "keyboard lid" which closes the top of the keyboard. Of course, you'd still need a way to keep it closed...This would be indeed nice. Considering the "low" quantities, every additional plastic part will be expensive, requiring construction, a mold, etc.
EDIT also, aside from Topre switches, this keyboard improves on everything i want from the HHKB. how soon are we talking about here? i would really hate for this thing to start production right after i buy HHKB.At least a year from now. I'll probably need at least two more months for the preview site. And funding alone can take a year. Then final construction, then the required tests (EMV, packing, etc.). Then production.
ETA and price?
Convince me not to get a Topre Brown Tenkeyless. :)
aren't the mouse buttons in the way of thumbs for space bar? would it not be better to place them more closer together in the center?
Please do not post the name(s) yet. Thanks.
What keeps me from buying a current Cherry board is, that all keys have the same color. The old boards with duo-tone (function keys are grey) looks so much better. And it's not just me, two of my collegues are hunting ebay for duo-tone Cherrys.
Just a thought, maybe you could allow us to register our interest.
I have a few comments:
I really like the idea :)
Is there a possibility of a non-staggered key layout?
And the configurator does not work in Opera.
Thanks. :-)
A non-staggered board would require even more custom keycaps. So this is probably not going to happen.
As for Opera, my ambition to deliver cross-browser compatible programming collapsed after it worked in IE8. Just checked the site in Opera 10. Looks like Opera finally renders pixel-sized fonts correctly. I'll look into the JavaScript issues. Thanks for bringing this up.
It would require a different pcb.
But if you want to fit a non-staggered layout into the existing (to be) case you will also need different caps around the pointing stick. And some more keys at the left and right borders. Let's say we keep the number row. For the tab key to fit with the number row it would have to have a width of either one or two regular keys. But a 2x key for cylindrical cross-section probably does not exist so in would be custom.
Might be easier with non-cylindrical POS keys but this would require a different custom spacebar.
Nice css on that page.
That wouldn't fit the case though, Backspace would have to be wider.
I'll keep it in mind. There are a lot of color combinations already, several colors times several languages and different physical layouts. Probably not even all of those will make it into the production configurator.
You might not even need to include "new" colors. Maybe just allow to choose two of the existing keycap colors for a "typical" duo-tone layout. (I love the look of the white/grey HHKB 2 Pro.)That'll depend on the final logistics, I think. I have separate keycap sets already on my list for the shop.
i hope there's an option to remove the dip from left ctrl (tab) key.This will depend on the options the keycap supplier provides. In any case, it will not be a configurator option because different switch pcbs would be required.
also, i suppose it's not possible to have an option to also include function key row? i guess it wouldn't so 'mini' anymore, but using some space for one more key row doesn't hurt much.This would require a new case, switch pcb, skeleton, etc. Which means $$$. So that's not very likely.
..... If you tried it with IE please try again.
THANKS!!!! =D
I just checked it out again, and I finally got to configure it and see what different things would look like, I love it!
I really wish you the best on this, I am excited all over again after looking at your site.
The funny thing is I never really thought about how tiny this would be until just now! I looked at some of my standard keyboards and just pictured them without the board around the main area and it is really, really small! That really does seem to be a nice size.
:)
will the cable be detachable?
... would be even better if it changed without hitting the preview button), I hope you can make that a reality.
Wow, you're going to sell it!!? Amazing!! How much? Do you know the price yet?There are way too many unknown factors yet for any pricing.
nice work. 4Q 2010? what is your pricing. I am on the fence as to getting a HHKB for Xms. I may pass and wait for yours to ship. something in a brown cherry would be nice.Q4 2010 is a rough estimate. However, Ms Keyboard said another small keyboard will come in the "near future" so you might at least want to wait for that.
Looking very good! Configurator still rocks (would be even better if it changed without hitting the preview button), I hope you can make that a reality.Thanks. After hitting preview I also load the switch view and the first rotate pic. So you couldn't just click through the colors for ex.
So does that mean, that the preview site is now officially open to the "public"?Yes, it's public now.
I've just skimmed through the site a little and so far everything looks pretty good.
I've noticed a few minor glitches, like a missing comma once and rather colloquial word I wouldn't have used in the German version, but nothing major.
The position next to the spacebar is the most convenient for thumb activation. And the 2nd layer cursor keys will get more use than Alt combinations. But it's easy to change: just swap the keys and change the programming.
ANSI layout: 61 keys, no keys between letter keys and left shift, two keys between L and Enter, horizontal enter
ISO layout: 62 keys, one key between letter keys and left shift, three keys between L and Enter, vertical enter
Small observation: In the configurator, "Switch view" - can be read as change view, which is what the area to the right of it does. Took me a while to work out it was literally a view of the switches.
Any chance of a hybrid Super-ANSI (ANSISO?) layout:
62 keys, one key between letter keys and left shift, two keys between L and Enter, horizontal enter ?
Or would that require different tooling making it too obscure to be worthwhile?
Sorry if this has been asked before - is a Windows key implemented anywhere?
Reason I ask is that in order to be fully Mac compatible we need a Windows key as it automatically maps to be the absolutely essential Mac Command key.
Remapping in software is possible, but that doesn't work during the boot sequence for going into single user and the like, so something in firmware is best.
You can map anything to anything on that board, so you could implement one.
Anyway, really liking the Red Alert scheme.
- Cherry blacks. I know most won't agree with me here but I enjoy the smooth action ATM.
That's quite a difference in sound. Who would've thought humble grease could change the sound of things so drastically? First buckling springs, now space bar mechanisms. I may keep some on my desk for ad-hoc improvements. :smile:
The programability of this board is what is going to make me get one. Even though I would prefer Topre switches I can live with the Cherry browns.
Here is a short video of my proof-of-concept switch. Ignore the background sound (typing and voices).
Long tactile curve, nearly silent, activates somewhere in the middle of the travel. Unfortunately it needs expensive parts. I won't go into details right now:
The clicking you hear is the pencil hitting the keycap. There is no sound from the switch unless bottomed out which is sort of dampened right now.
Rattling should not be overly apparent if the stabilizing slots are sized to the diameter of the stabilizing wire. The taller/looser the slot the more rattle you get.
So this makes me wonder if stabilizers could be made of some dampening rubber-like material that doesn't need to be greased to remain elastic or not dry out, yet still function crisply. :tape:
Is it based on any switch?
I don't think that would sell in numbers? However, I wonder if ANSI and ISO can be combined on the same pcb. Would require only one pcb then and it could easily be modded.
They can be, although you'll need your keys to be molded to have a Cherry MX-shaped stabilizer on any keys that are different in the layout, because you can't center the switch under left shift or enter.
Here is a short video of my proof-of-concept switch. Ignore the background sound (typing and voices).
Long tactile curve, nearly silent, activates somewhere in the middle of the travel. Unfortunately it needs expensive parts. I won't go into details right now:
The clicking you hear is the pencil hitting the keycap. There is no sound from the switch unless bottomed out which is sort of dampened right now.
Edit: It also doesn't use rubber.
Can someone fill me in on the "stepped" control key, or dipped, or whatever you call it. I feel like I'm missing out on some niche style or something. What is the purpose or advantage of it, it just looks annoying :/
I thought it was to prevent accidental presses in case of CapsLock, or in the case of the XT F because they might not had proper stabilizers for big keys, or something alike (?)
http://www.guru-board.com
Whether the production version will have a stepped Ctrl/Capslock key will depend on the keycap manufacturer. Cherry caps have that step.
Just to be clear I'm sure the IBM engineers just followed tradition.
I'll put my vote in for no step now ;)My vote would go to stepped... that area makes a nice finger rest. ;)
My vote would go to stepped... that area makes a nice finger rest. ;)
lowpoly, I'm afraid the website layout still needs some work (http://stephan.win31.de/guru-board.png)...
Tradition says keyboard (http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/keyboards.html) manufacturers (https://www.cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/menu.htm) must have bad websites (http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/).
Stop breaking the rule!
I wish that I could do something for the project (other than buying a few of them, obviously) that might actually aid in the development. Well, it looks like you're pretty much done with development and you need to find someone for manufacturing/tooling? Do you need investors? Sales reps? Buzz generators?
I think this product needs a big viral-style marketing effort at the least. IIRC a lot of niche items start like that. Are you planning on showing the item at trade shows? The computer "enthusiast" market has been pretty stale lately, and the small form factor + simple layout might convince some distributers/retailers to help you "launch" the product.
No matter the price, I think quality matters. I wouldn't rush anything out or skimp on any 'luxury' aspect of this board. The very first run of these babies should be totally bulletproof. I believe that the #1 killer of enthusiast-targeted products is ANY public perception of low-quality. You get a couple people complaining about sticky keys, paint chipping, transpostion errors, compatibility issues, or anything like that... The whole community starts to bandwagon. To reiterate what I just said- I don't care if the product retails at $300, as long as it's a quality product, 100% reliable and solid as a rock, that "enthusiast" market will bite.
Would be nice if the configurator provided tooltips for color names. And make that 360 deg view mouse controllable. Can't wait for it to start shipping.
Also, no preview with a vertical enter? :-/
lowpoly, I'm afraid the website layout still needs some work (http://stephan.win31.de/guru-board.png)...
Tradition says keyboard (http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/keyboards.html) manufacturers (https://www.cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/menu.htm) must have bad websites (http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/).
Stop breaking the rule!
lowpoly, I'm afraid the website layout still needs some work (http://stephan.win31.de/guru-board.png)...
I installed SeaMonkey (Windows) and everything looks fine, zoomed or not. Do you have "Edit/Preferences/Appearance/Fonts/Allow documents to use other fonts" unchecked?Try with a standard font size of 18 and a minimum of 16... Probably the latter is what's breaking it. Normally it's even worse on my parents' notebook (1680x1050 17" screen and the eyes aren't what they used to be). BTW, switching to text-only zoom in either FF or SM would also break the design, I think (that was the standard way up to SM 1.1.x and FF 1.5 or 2.0 or thereabouts).
That usually bugs the graphical folks who'd like to fix everything in px to match their images.True. The minimum font size is going to ruin the design one way or the other (think huge empty spaces). And cutting the background graphics into several parts will make the page load (even) slower. Browser zoom doesn't have these problems and is already widely supported.
my parents' notebookWhy not adjust the operating system's dpi scaling? That would affect all applications.
Ah, it's the minimum font size. Basically you're overriding my css design with this (and that of many, many other sites).Well, what doesn't one do to have a human readable font size without having to adjust zoom all the time. (Not to mention that full page zoom !=100% tends to make things a little laggy with graphics, at least in FF/SM. Minimum font sizes are not recalculated either, so a broken design only becomes an enlarged broken design... smells like a bug. And so I submitted one. (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=535639))
Why not adjust the operating system's dpi scaling? That would affect all applications.System fonts are already at 144 dpi on that machine. (Guess what - large system fonts are a good way of breaking a few applications.)
large system fonts are a good way of breaking a few applications
Nice controversial discussion on the em vs. px topic:Some opinions there reminded me of how fragile progress (real progress) actually is and that it takes continuous work not to be thrown back and cannot be taken for granted at all. (The influence of creationists in the States makes a brilliant example.)
http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2008/10/07/zoom/
I used dpi scaling for several years and I have seen a few broken applications. A lot less though than the broken sites I have seen during a few minutes of 18/16 browsing. YMMV, of course.Now you can probably imagine how it is to be surfing with 18/16 for the last 6 years or so... And yes, fortunately no real important application ever really broke for me at 120 dpi... there was some tax software years ago that did, and it was a bit of a pity about some free oscilloscope software.
Can you get cables suited for a keyboard in terms of thickness and stiffness that terminate in a type B at all?
Hmm, if this board will be available for purchase sometime, I should better add my 2¢ now.
I don't like staggered caps lock keys. When mapping them to control - which probably isn't an uncommon thing on a board explicitly sold to be programmable - I find the staggering rather inconvenient. This was one of the reasons I did not hesitate to grab my Marquardt milspec (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=8016) board.
For the second cent, I hate mini-B USB plugs. They are much less reliable than standard sized B plugs. I constantly have to resolder or replace them on my iRiver, cardreader and 2.5" HD enclosures. This is a reason I keep dismissing the HHKB despite its non-staggered caps/control.
Apart from those points, it seems like the perfect keyboard to me.
Are there any examples where these are used with many connect/disconnects?
The other way to look at I've never heard anyone complain about the HHKB2 one not working.
I've just read about a dozen USB socket datasheets in the hope to find some objective numbers for my experience. Interestingly, the mating cycles - if they were specified at all - only varied with the thickness of the gold plating. When comparing B and mini-B with the same plating of the same manufacturer, the values were all identical...
Miniguru on golem.de (German IT news portal):
While I can't read German or Korean ( I don't know if the text is positive or negative )
Could the Chip SK5101 be interesting for this Project?
Each key found pressed is debounced for a period of 28 ms. Once the key is verified, the corresponding
key code(s) are loaded into the transmit buffer.
In any scanned contact switch matrix, whenever three keys
defining a rectangle on the switch matrix are pressed at the
same time, a fourth key positioned on the fourth corner of the
rectangle is sensed as being pressed. This is known as the
“ghost” or “phantom” key problem.
Although the problem cannot be totally eliminated without
using external hardware, there are methods to neutralize its
negative effects for most practical applications. Keys that are
intended to be used in combinations should be placed in the
same row or column of the matrix, whenever possible. Shift
keys (Shift, Alt, Ctrl, Window) should not reside in the same
row (or column) as any other keys. The SK5100/SK5101 has
built-in mechanisms to detect and reject “ghost” keys.
I think I'm going to participate in any other discussions should they ever happen. Even if it will end in tears. I don't want to become another Andy.
You'll have some interesting marketing issues. I've seen it when I showed quality keyboards to people. I've seen it on market places where users can comment. I've seen it with the μTRON, which main presence on google is links to a swarm of gadgets logs copying each other where it was the topic of the day for ridicule, based on a picture. While it is in reality a really smart design from the ground up. Your keyboard will be a) different, b) relatively expensive, so it will be attacked by the clueless who will not keep silent because of that handicap. It will be considered a snob gadget for stupid people with too much money. "What were they thinking." and "I can buy a Logicrap 15000 with all kinds of extra keys, for less!" etc. etc. If you're going to battle that, it will be tiresome and an energy drain. I'd try to be ahead of it. Doing a HHKB would be difficult, you don't have big funds and you are not in Japan. Still think you should give a prototype to Stallman or someone like that (I picked him because he's a HHKB user), then let him say some nice things about it, then post that to Slashdot, reddit, etc., and any hacker who was previously thinking about a Das Keyboard would suddenly want the keyboard real programmers use. Or forget about the western market and give some prototypes to Asian trendsetters like 박영환 and Sandy. In any case it would be nice to have something smart like that happen to set the mood. Then the other users will do the correcting, like Apple fanboys! Wheeee!Some very good points, thanks.
..., but it fails to mention that this is a mechanical keyboard.:embarassed: Thanks for pointing that out because my press release fails to mention that either. The features page on the preview site doesn't list it as well. So, I'm the one to blame here. I'm going to change that ASAP.
Does the Controller GETT TKC-8000-USB-PS/2 really cost € 50 ?The Gett controller is > €50 but this is a working controller. Low numbers for industrial use which explains the price. The chip it uses is from Codemercs for about the same price as the SK5101. But I'd rather have something like Geekey.
I found another programmable one for less than $ 12 :
SK5101 - Low Cost USB/PS2 Programmable FlexMatrix Industrial Keyboard Encoder
http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5100.aspx
http://www.sprintek.com/order/OrderICs.aspx
The Software for Programming the Chip is free:
http://www.sprintek.com/support/Downloads.aspx
Could the Chip SK5101 be interesting for this Project?
Andy who?Andy, the former Das community manager who ignored almost every discussion here.
And I'll rebuild my Facit to house one of them.I'd like to see that. :-)
Miniguru on Yanko Design:
http://www.yankodesign.com
http://www.yankodesign.com/2010/01/11/looks-like-a-normal-keyboard-doesnt-it/
The ignorant comments there made my blood boil. I hope you handle them better than I do lol. :lol:
Engadget:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/12/guruboards-miniguru-keyboard-aims-to-keep-you-on-the-home-row/
:-)
Does the Controller GETT TKC-8000-USB-PS/2 really cost € 50 ?
I found another programmable one for less than $ 12 :
SK5101 - Low Cost USB/PS2 Programmable FlexMatrix Industrial Keyboard Encoder
http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5100.aspx
http://www.sprintek.com/order/OrderICs.aspx
The Software for Programming the Chip is free:
http://www.sprintek.com/support/Downloads.aspx
Btw lowpo - if your keyboard's firmware/layout is that easily re-programmable, that has got to be THE most major selling point and feature of this keyboard (aside from its killer looks).
Will this board be easy to clean, and serivce if necessary? I ask because this product would fare well when combined with a long-term warrantee.
Business professionals in particular would be attracted to a free 'test drive'. There are tons of professionals out there who make 100K+ salaries, but type on a junky keyboard all day. This isn't the best example, but remember the Orek vacuum cleaners? They've always had the reputation of being a very high-priced vaccum, but people tend to keep them after they've experienced the test. Keyboards, like vacuums, are everyday machines that we assume are mostly identical. It's hard to sell a quality vacuum without first demonstrating its value to the consumer.
Webwit posted a very realistic scenario for a product like this, and much of it can't be avoided. Responses to the public reaction should be planned ahead of time, as they often are.
My own view is that their should be a top-of-the-line version targeted to the very wealthy. The top-end model should be made with the absolute best materials available (new, high-tech plastics etc); it should also come with a lifetime warrantee and a bevy of overpriced accessories/options. Fact is, there are a lot of people sitting at $12,000 rosewood desks, in $3000 ergonomic chairs, typing on $20 rubber dome keyboards. Convince them that your product will increase their productivity, send them a free demonstration model with matching wristrest and, i don't know, italian leather spacebar or something- you could sell one to half the business owners in the country.
Just what I could use for my eventual ambition of doing a project.
I'm certainly happy to hear that the HHKB is going to get some competition.
My surface impression, though, is that the design does have a flaw. At first I didn't see a good way to fix one of the "flaws" I saw - the lack of cursor keys - but on reflection that's just a valid design decision. The other flaw - which seems to me to be a real flaw - does seem to be easily correctable, though.
If you abolish the Windows Shift keys, so that you have paired Fn keys to get at the extra key layer, then if you try to put Windows Shift in the other layer, how do you shift anything with it?
(I'm probably misunderstanding things here, and the Windows Menu key was only used in the mock-up so that the two Fn keys could look alike, even if I didn't see a specific mention of that, though.)
Since the Windows Menu key is left in the design, though, there's an obvious fix for that: make it a Windows Shift key instead. (Give it the code for the left one instead of the right one, even though it's on the right.) Putting Windows Menu in the second layer is not a problem, since that's not a shift key. (The fact that lots of keyboards these days only have one Windows Shift key means that you should be able to get away with just one without any software incompatibilities.)
Leaving out the cursor keys, unlike the HHKB Lite, is a design decision, and with two shift keys for the second layer, this shouldn't be a big deal - so the win of having full-sized keys and no funny changes to the standard main typing area layout is worth it.
Someone could also argue with moving the Alt keys, but that does help to avoid your Fn keys from being confused with Windows Shift keys, and it makes sense, too, that they should be in the higher-priority position that Alt has versus Windows Shift, since the second layer will be needed.
Seconded. And the ability to program keys in by scancode, not just by name, is essential as well - because being able to shuffle around the second layer to taste is nice, but the ability to get at keys not in the basic set is even more important. So don't drop that feature in attempting to make it more usable by the general consumer!
EDIT: I see by the web site that in addition to scan code FF for the Fn key, you are planning to have a third layer. One important feature this brings to mind (which you've probably already thought of, of course) is this: instead of only being able to define a key as "2nd layer shift" or "3rd layer shift", it would be very handy to be able to define keys as "Layer shift" and "Use 2nd layer for layer shift", "Use 3rd layer for layer shift". That way, you can use the two swirl keys to switch to a selected additional layer, and use a key on the higher layer to toggle between what that layer is, without having to dedicate more layer shift keys on the first layer.
snip
Again requiring a special custom controller, but you could have it such that it comes up as a custom device, and if it doesn't detect a driver, it switches modes to USB HID.
I'm noticing a lot of *****ing about colemak and dvorak. Perhaps just to show that you care, you could put an option on the configurator for dvorak and colemak. Even if its not a feasible option when you go into production (keycap manufacturing issues etc.) at least it would shut people up for now and would show that this isn't "just another keyboard".
Ah. Well, when I was talking about servicing the board, I had the model M in mind. While it shouldn't be a primary concern of yours :D (it's really just a minor detail), I think that quality mechanical things (cars, keyboards, etc) are twice as admirable when they can be assembled and disassembled elegantly. If I were to design a keyboard, I would make sure that you could strip it down to the PCB with as few motions as possible. It's a small detail, but I think it's important. I wouldn't sacrifice much of the cosmetics for it though lol.
One point. The keyboard will not require a special driver, it will be a USB keyboard... and it is to have N-key rollover. That is, of course, a contradiction: under the first two conditions, the best that is possible is the full six-key rollover provided by the standard USB keyboard format.
Program by USB, then connect by PS/2, would be nice, but would probably require a special custom controller the cost of which would be prohibitive.
I repeat my question: what about Bluetooth? I understand that it's probably not trivial to find a place for batteries and stuff. But this would be a killer feature, for me at least. We live in 2010, Bluetooth is pretty much standard in portable computers, and yet we have to carry a cable with our guru keyboards. Think of HTPC users that want to remote control their media centers. The miniguru demands to be freed from the chains of USB cables!
Maybe in a later version? :)
Was just wondering how it would look with transparent key caps, enabling view of the coloured key stems.
I haven't seen lowpoly in awhile. I wonder what's going on with this project.
Was just wondering how it would look with transparent key caps, enabling view of the coloured key stems.
Cherry reds under transparent keys. Drooooool.
I prefer naked women through shower curtains.
Transparent plastic looks so 80s. Webwit's pic is a good example.
Miniguru Cancelled
Production of the Miniguru has been cancelled. :-(
I don’t want to list the specific reasons here, let’s just say that mainly we lost faith in being able to sell the initial production run.
Thanks to all who sent messages of support and my apologies to those how have been waiting for this keyboard.
It's not uncommon for prospective backers to take out, and hold on to, patents before abandoning a project. That (or a similar claim on rights) could be a possible obstacle to continuing with alternative support.
We could then build our own perhaps?....
assemble the parts yourself as a complete kit....
There are just too many configurations to be practical for production. The only way possible is :-
With limited options to three maybe four MX switches (including Red) already soldered onto the PCB, different coloured cases, key caps etcetera. It would be a simpler process of just picking and boxing the different required components.
People who grew-up with kit-form toys would more than likely enjoy the task, the self gratifying pleasure of achievement in constructing their own kbd.
Or produce limited configurations without purchaser option to configure.
Do not despair, reaching this far has already given us much Hope, the basis of our living. You have not let us down.
Maybe rather than cancel this project, it can be taken onto a different route, think Robert The Bruce and the Spider.
The guy who killed Braveheart?
Sir William Wallace? What are the odds he'd come up in this forum, lol. He's actually ancestor of mine, :smile:.
i should look back through the threads, but you used a 3d printing service for the plastics/caps right? Do they have a deal where we can buy them individiually, and you get some profit from it? I know a lot of 3d service printing sites have done that? We could then build our own perhaps?THIS
If you're not going to sell it, full, maybe you could either show us how to make it exactly as in what to buy, or assemble the parts yourself as a complete kit like the kbc people are planning to do, and somehow get some profit from that? If you don't have any construction cost/sweatshop assmembly labor, it's just parts right? This has worked for the model building/hobbiest industry for years. Perhaps this would be a better business model for you, since most of this boards followers are keyboard hobbiests. That might give you enough money, and show the interest level to take it up to a next level.
Maybe at least you could start a new thread/post where you give a summary of how to build one, as i know it's spread through this thread, but in concise links, and a step by step instruction manual.
How is he your ancestor, I thought they killed his girl or somethin. lol Oh he had that affair with that french princess/queen or something? roflol Mel Gibson history. roflol
The guy who killed Braveheart?Nope,
Go for PCB-mount switches, specify what keyboard to harvest the TrackPoints from, and sell bare PCBs. Use a DIP-packaged microcontroller, and go through-hole on everything, for ease of assembly.Where is the through hole microcontroller? I'm not aware of any open source two layer keyboard controller solutions for popular microcontrollers.
You could probably sell 25 that way, and not lose money.
The open source development has stalled, it seems. commercial chips are mostly tiny SMD components. i know of three dual layer solutions, one is tiny SMD component (industry standard), one is a sizable board from xkeys, very big PCB with quite a few large components and hard to fit in a keyboard you can see from my picture of Frankenstein keyboard. the German one that Lowpoly plan to use, I have no idea.
there may very well be a way to fit diodes within the already messy single layer scheme. for two layer there's definitely room. and that' 4 soldering points per key, adding up to over 300 total. Not sure if there are 25 people who are willing to do that.
I'm a software developer, and I'm learning Eagle stuff. But i'm nowhere near competent to design such a board. If anyone volunteer, than maybe we can setup one of that kickstart.com thing and see how it goes.
I don't suppose that particular firmware is dual layers. I could be wrong.
It's always good to see people making custom boards from scratch. Look forward to see your results.
I tried PCB etching with PCB in a Box, and it's hard to etch thin lines as required by one sided board, or double sided. Not to mention the precise drilling. I concluded that it might cost less to have a fab house make one. I even thought about setting up CNC to drill the holes. That's 3 holes per switch, two sizes. if you buy PCB mount switches, it'd be 5 holes per switch.
I don't think the case is as much a headache. i used one with no case for 9 months! If you are not picky about looks, just cut some acrylic and weld together.
Do cherry's not use plates like alps boards? I need to tear apart my scorpius m10 to see how it works. I might even end up using it as a donor board since I don't want to buy overpriced cherry mx's from a parts dealer.
Nope,
Robert 1st. called The Bruce was the King of Scotland and won the Battle of Bannockburn to gain Scottish Independence from the English, albeit for a short time.
While hiding in a derelict building during a stormy day, he saw a spider spinning its' web but the wind and rain kept destroying it. The spider's relentlessness in repeated attempts to rebuild taught Robert The Bruce an important lesson, "If you don't at first succeed, try and try again", eventually succeeded at Bannockburn.
but I don't know exact detail of how to wire the pointing sticks.. no idea what the part number is. i got a few here i can try though. it has four connectors and i'm not sure how to wire them, and what driver to use. Anyone?
DIY kit
Thanks for finding the right words to help me get over this.
The ones I have seen were all ps/2 so the 4 wires are gnd,vcc,clock,data. It should be possible to connect the pointing stick to a Teensy (for ex.). There are some projects/libraries at avr-freaks.com that read ps/2 devices from an AVR. A single Teensy 2.0 could be all that is needed but you may run into timing issues. 16 ports for the matrix (8x8) and 2 for the pointing stick is all that is needed.
A DIY kit would not be easy if the current design should be kept. Hand wiring is not an option then because there's no room for a mounting plate. So the body has to support the pcb, secure the controller pcb, support the pointing stick pcb and provide the mouse button mechanics. Could probably be done as a single plastic part but it would be complex. Right now, I don't see this happening.
If the original design is not important, cfishy's acrylic plate is a very good alternative.
Here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7422) is cfishy's thread with the acrylic backplate.
Yeah Frankenstein, I saw the vid. ;) He said he got the plexiglass laser cut, but didn't really go into detail? Is it somewhere later in the thread?
The only thing I would worry about with the plexi is that it would effect the characteristics for the switch, and it would be significantly lighter than a board with a metal plate.
The ones I have seen were all ps/2 so the 4 wires are gnd,vcc,clock,data. It should be possible to connect the pointing stick to a Teensy (for ex.). There are some projects/libraries at avr-freaks.com that read ps/2 devices from an AVR. A single Teensy 2.0 could be all that is needed but you may run into timing issues. 16 ports for the matrix (8x8) and 2 for the pointing stick is all that is needed.
There's not much to say about the laser cut acrylics layer. I just draw the square holes with Corel Draw and send it to the laser cutter and wait til it's done.
Does the acrylics plate affect the feel of the switch? It does flex a little bit. It feels much lighter. I actually prefer that over the metal plate.
if you want it heavier, just add something heavy to it, like a steel plate on the bottom.
@lowpoly, do you have an template for the case? In electronic form? Would you mind to share that, so i can build my own MiniGuru?
I still have the cardboard template:Show Image(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2916/05cardboardtemplatesup2.jpg)
I'd need it back when you're finished with the case.
I'd need it back when you're finished with the case.
I'll see if I can scan those, no need to ship flat cardboard around.
I'll see if I can scan those, no need to ship flat cardboard around.
Lowpoly, how about just take a quick picture with a ruler next to it, that should be good enough. I'm sure people have to modify it a bit anyway.
It shouldn't be hard to dup the shape in sketchup quickly.
I still have that sheet of paper full of geometry calculations. :-) Took several hours to get the angles right.
It's not going to happen. :-(
Quote from the blog:
Let me add to that last sentence that I'm sorry I couldn't answer to any PMs or contact form mails during the last weeks because this was looming but a final decision had not been made.
Dang, wish you had mentioned that yesterday. There was a NIB IBM Space Saver II with trackpoint (rubber dome though) here on Ebay but it just sold. (http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-Space-Saver-II-PS-2-Keyboard-37L0888-RT3200-Mouse-/110550957435?cmd=ViewItem&pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item19bd59bd7b)
Engadget has posted about the cancellation:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/22/guruboard-cancels-miniguru-keyboard-project/
-no usb hub, as in an extra one? or as in a detacheable cable? If "extra" We don't really need an extra one, so no worries there.
Can we still have Chocolate Creme?
I would have thought 10,000 would have been a pretty good-sized MOQ.
What do you think?
Show Image(http://zachwang.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/sd.jpg)
Regarding the controller: the AIKON (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8308&do=comments&page=2) seems to be quite nice. As far as I can see, it's not able to read a PS/2 signal, though. :-/
I can handle the controller part, with all the bells and whistles in ... IFF the keyboard is going to be great.
PM me if I lose track on GH, for any keyboard manufacturer who'd want funky controller.
I'm currently thinking about a smaller scale production or a kit.[/quot]Perfect!Quote from: lowpoly;260840Product and development would be simplified:Okay, I don't particularly care for metal but if it turns out to be cheaper than plastic, fine for me. I won't have a metalworking shop soon.
-machined aluminum case (should be better than die-cast anyway)
-machined mouse buttonsQuote from: lowpoly;260840-no USB hubFine, this saves space in the case.Quote from: lowpoly;260840-use an existing controller like the TeensyActually, this choice would mean a couple of things:
-no fancy multi-platform programming software, maybe later
-Mass ordering Teensy boards would mean that Europeans wouldn't have to order from PJRC directly so it saves a bit on shipping.
-The Teensy has its own software for programming: TeensyLoader (http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/loader.html). It is multi-platform already!
Price would be some issue for me, though an indication of the price range would help much. At any rate, it would probably cheaper and more refined than anything I would come up with.
Fine, this saves space in the case.
machined aluminum case (should be better than die-cast anyway)
machined mouse buttons
no USB hub
use an existing controller like the Teensy
no fancy multi-platform programming software, maybe later
I'd do the mechanical construction and switch pcb development myself.
you might want to check out the diy audio community (in particular the smaller-scale headphone electronics people, see http://www.amb.org/audio/ for a particular organized example) to see how they do it -- it's remarkably efficient and has given the community many awesome projects. manufacturing is almost exclusively done by individuals and a few proficient builders who serve as cottage factories.
in particular, audio guys tend to crowd-source the physical design of projects. it's proven to be a much more effective way to end up with a polished design.
anyway, please keep people updated.
I can handle the controller part, with all the bells and whistles in ... IFF the keyboard is going to be great.
PM me if I lose track on GH, for any keyboard manufacturer who'd want funky controller.
I am happy to help on firmware too, if code and developing process is open.
...and if you are patient with my Engrish.
I am ready to start :)
Teensy and TrackPoint Unit(PS/2) for development:
[pics]
I wonder if it is possible to have an option without trackpoint and mouse buttons just a stand alone keyboard hmm...I'll check this when I finally contact companies/individuals for CNC machining. The (minor) problem with the stick-less body is that it has no cut-outs for the mouse buttons.
-Mass ordering Teensy boards would mean that Europeans wouldn't have to order from PJRC directly so it saves a bit on shipping.I have to check what kind of CE-testing is required for this type of product.
If you mean it gets displaced by air, good; the miniguru wouldn't be what it is if the case profile turns into a flat rectangular tray.I agree. However, the current case has a height of 22.4mm if you put it upside down on a desk. This requires 100x25mm flat material. Using 100x20mm material instead would make the raw aluminum cheaper by 1/5 (Eur15,60 instead of Eur20,00 +tax for each). Will also depend on how much additional material the machining requires. I don't know that yet.
my suggestion would be to aim for a parts-level kit where custom parts are made in small/medium runs and parts lists are crowd-sourced/made available for commonly available bits. ie, design and sell a chassis and boards and let the community populate the rest as it wishes.These are good ideas. I'll have a look at amb.org.
this keeps your risk/investment relatively low, and insulates you from many of the ridiculous but inevitable demands that people will have. basically, design for simplicity of construction and extensibility and let people populate their own product as they wish. the trackpoint, for example, can just be mounting points in the chassis and a pinout for the unicomp controller/stick, which builders would be free to source on their own.
you might want to check out the diy audio community (in particular the smaller-scale headphone electronics people, see http://www.amb.org/audio/ for a particular organized example) to see how they do it -- it's remarkably efficient and has given the community many awesome projects. manufacturing is almost exclusively done by individuals and a few proficient builders who serve as cottage factories.
in particular, audio guys tend to crowd-source the physical design of projects. it's proven to be a much more effective way to end up with a polished design.
anyway, please keep people updated.
So I finally figured what I can do to help. I'm not sure if you have a keycap solution in mind, but I have dealt with Signature Plastics in the past.
If needed let me know the specifications.
As for those expecting it to be cheaper than plastic...What's the tooling cost for plastic? It didn't come cheap either way...
With the current setup, pcb, switches and a decent quality cnc engineered metal case I think we are looking at $300-500 per keyboard, probably more if lowpoly has it done here in the EU. And that is assuming you stuff on your own keycaps.
If you are planning only 100 units, I would like to pre-order 1 at the present moment, depending on the availability, this may change later on.
What's the tooling cost for plastic? It didn't come cheap either way...
Actually, what I'm counting on the most is the PCB and controller setup as I've got enough switch donors for now, maybe even a spare case to molest. Having a nice case at a decent price would be a great bonus, but I'm not really counting on it yet.
I meant to say no track point, and no mouse clicks as well. Just a stand alone keyboard my mistake... what would be really lovely if you did a collab with Click Clak and made a titanium body, with titanium keycaps oh.... the beauty...
If you are planning only 100 units, I would like to pre-order 1 at the present moment, depending on the availability, this may change later on.
What's the tooling cost for plastic? It didn't come cheap either way...
Actually, what I'm counting on the most is the PCB and controller setup as I've got enough switch donors for now, maybe even a spare case to molest. Having a nice case at a decent price would be a great bonus, but I'm not really counting on it yet.
what would be really lovely if you did a collab with Click Clak and made a titanium body, with titanium keycaps oh.... the beauty...
[pic]
Is it possible to get cherry keycaps from somewhere in smaller quantities?
Original Cherry?
Edit: these here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5418&highlight=G80-0349) should be the spherical caps.
Thanks for reviving this project. I joined GH after learning about the mini guru as well and would definitely consider ordering the DIY kit, depending on how difficult it was (never done any keyboarding modding).
I would be extremely interested in getting one of those kits. What would the difficulty level in putting one of those things together? And what would the price estimate approximately be?
I would be extremely interested in getting one of those kits. What would the difficulty level in putting one of those things together? And what would the price estimate approximately be?
I was just going to contact SP.
Help would be great, thank you.
Specifications:
Standard alpha part ANSI 61 keys, ISO 62 keys.
I guess it would be cheapest to take what they have but I'd prefer if it was Cherry compatible (stabilizers, space bar switch position, etc).
Choice of stabilizers will affect pcb and maybe body construction.
They probably have black and white but what about additional colors: gray, cream, brown (with black lettering)?
With and without symbols?
Maybe ISO languages?
Materials? Edit: Lasered? Double Shot?
Edit2: And a swirl key would be nice!
Edit3: Control keys for CapsLock position and additional blank keys for the spacebar row (even with symbol sets).
To keep it simple, quotes for 5 and 10 units would be fine. Less than 5 will be too expensive, more than 10 won't happen that often. Quotes should include stabilizers.
For the curious, here's what chimera15 found out:
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=197816&postcount=58
Significant price drop from 5 units on.
After looking at the basic setup of a mouse and keyboard, though, I have to ask: Is there scrolling functionality? Could we (for example) hold down the meta key and use the touchpoint to scroll, or is that out of the limitations of the hardware?
Devlin.co.uk do keycaps - might cut down on the shipping costs...
What would the difficulty level in putting one of those things together? And what would the price estimate approximately be?
My first post on GH.
Only ever found this forum because of the MiniGuru.
Count me in.
lowpoly, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.
Signature keys are compatible with both cherry and filco layouts.(Stem and stabilizer) The space bar has dual middle stems to accommodate.
Some members have already ordered color rings from SP. I will find a picture and post it here.
They can produce blank keys or keys with legends. Blanks are cheaper.
The most affordable keys are the abs doubleshot keys.
If you can get a CAD or Adobe Illustrator file with your swirl image, they can make a double shot key of it.
Extra keys like the long control or the blanks cost and additional $0.80-$1.15 per key. This is also mitigated by quantity.
I asked for quotes for 25, 50, 100 sets. I will get the quotes for 5 and 10, but in my experience the price drop once you hit 25 is significant.
[pic]
By modding my way you get a modern Lenovo trackpoint with three mousebuttons and Win7 drivers. Which I think is a better solution. Those generic Pointing Sticks is usually not as good as IBM/Lenovo trackpoint... And as I understood it only has 2 mouse buttons?
IBM did use 'generic Pointing Sticks' too. :-) The TP2 I used for the prototype was made by Bourns, not by IBM. No third button on this one. Not available anymore, btw. I'm going to use one made by a company that has been an OEM supplier for Thinkpad pointing in the past. It will have 3 button capabilities. Also, running it through the Teensy means that it should be possible to influence the characteristics in the firmware, no driver necessary. Well, that's the plan at least.
Pricing is as follows:
2-shot keyset:
5 sets $211.50 / set
10 sets $116.03 / set
15 sets $86.62 / set
20 sets $71.92 / set
25 sets $63.09 / set
50 sets $45.44 / set
100 sets $36.62 / set
Blank keyset:
5 sets $108.49 / set
10 sets $62.75 / set
15 sets $47.51 / set
20 sets $39.89 / set
25 sets $35.31 / set
50 sets $26.17 / set
100 sets $21.59 / set
Count me in, but I'd like one *without* that mouse-like thingy, if possible! ;)
If not, no problem, the keyboard is awesome and I will cope with it.
I just want a low price, at about <60$!
through-hole for the PCB is ideal, but in the case that some chips come in only SMT, i think the preferred option is to have the following purchasing options: a) bare board b) bare board with SMT parts mounted (extra cost).
Also, I don't like pre-populated boards for a couple of reasons:
1) the time that you would spend populating 100 boards could be much better spent in CAD or some other aspect of design or parts production/sourcing
2) i imagine the board design will be somewhat customizable, which would make mass production particularly hard
3) extra cost. unless you're planning on stuffing more than 100 boards at once and you have an army of low-paid elves to stuff boards, the builder will probably end up spending less to populate the board than he would if he were paying you for parts + labor.
4) i imagine you won't be able to test the board without switches, and the switches will clearly be the most customized/contentious/user populated part of the keyboard.
anyway, long story short, as long as the board doesn't require superhuman skill to populate, i think DIY is likely to be the best case, not worst case. i could be completely wrong about this, but this is my impression, again, from DIY audio (although do note that nearly every component in an audio circuit is highly contentious)
finally, keep in mind that the individual parts you design and produce won't necessarily be used in exactly the way or configuration that you imagine. some people will want to use your board in their own chassis, (and v.v.!).
lowpoly,
This is for the 61 ANSI. I used this picture as a base of reference.
[pic]
For the ISO the price wouldn't change too much.
Signature wanted to let me know that they do not have the tooling for domed keys. If they made the swirl key it would be flat profiled.
I need to clear up some information about stabilizers, and I will get back to you.
Thank you!
That's a lot more than Chimera's quote (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=197816&postcount=58). It looked like it was for a full alpha set but I probably missed something due to bad reading. Any hidden cost killers in the Miniguru layout?
Swirl key: I think flat would be better anyway.
I went through Chimera's thread again and it looks like SP has no stabilizers.
The larger keys tend to cost more, but there are no large outliers. I believe that the tool costs for the swirl key were built into the price of each set.
Signature does not provide stabilizers. I will ask to see if they have any connections though.
I'd love one with a UK layout.. :<Should be possible one way or the other.
What switches are you thinking of going with? Possible option or do you plan on just buying one switch in uber-bulk?
I don't know if anyone posted this yet, but good job on getting on OTD again ;D
http://www.otd.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=product_news&wr_id=2301
Keep up the good working :) ~
-Victheslik
Another question that is probably unanswerable...do you have a remote time frame that you are trying to have this project completed by?
Thanks for the comments.
I want to ship a kit in 2011. There'll be no new deadline though. I don't want to miss one again.
Finally finished my blank keycaps:Show Image(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/miniguru_blank.jpg)
This was a set with symbols which I hand-sanded away. First using 180grit, then 600grit with water. 600 seems to be too fine, it gets glossy where scratched. Looks great when new though.
How long did the sanding take?
I'll have to second that. That's hot.
I've stalked this forum without an account for far too long. I created one today, just so I may say that I'm in.
hemflit, this may/may not help but if you don't want to leave the keyboard for scrolling then at least for web browsers you can get keyboard bindings so you may navigate pages without leaving the home row.
Personally i don't really understand Soldering, If i choose No Soldering, does that means the keyboard will comes with all parts Soldered without the need for us to solder the keyboard ourselves?
Prefer the keyboard to comes in completed so we can use directly, and then think about DIY the keyboard and add on the other stuff ourselves.
Just spent the last 2 hours reading all 51 pages.
I'm in for one, no matter the price.
Edit: Hmm I might be interested. Will the soldering be done for us if we pay extra?
Hey lowpoly, I live in the US, and there has GOT to be a large enough market to make this into a real product. If Das Keyboard can sell well enough, how could this one not?
Let's chat man, I wanna figure out how to make this into a real product. Let me know if there is any way I can help. I'm sure we can find some vc's/use kick starter to get this going.
I agree, if you get into this keyboard some kind of scrolling tool, ideally something like the logitech hyperscroll wheel... well, you are in a whole different game. No need to touch a mouse, ever.
Thanks Raeb. It's not exactly that I have a particular scrolling problem that I want this keyboard to solve; certainly with programmable firmware anyone could make it, say, swirl button + trackpoint motion = scrolling, or something like that. it's just that it occurred to me two trackpoints for two index fingers might possibly be "kinda nifty" for a 100%-home-row use case, so I wanted to throw that out in the open :)
For a small quantity run such as this, I'd be quite surprised if the cost came in under what a new HHKB goes for.
With the pcb, I'm going to use Kicad, which is open source. Still trying to get the hang of it and I have to start with custom parts. I think I'll try the 4 layer pcb with an individual led matrix on a different layer for the first release (I'm still surprised nobody responded to this).
The controller (Teensy) will not be on the switch pcb. There'll be only switches, diodes, pins and probably a pointing stick connector. I have yet to figure this one out. The pointing stick needs an industrial ribbon cable and the necessary connector will most likely be SMD. So, one SMD part at max. The connector and cable may not even be available in small quantities.
4 layer PCB? Does that make hand-soldering more difficult or not?
perhaps its better to do this without the case. i would be happy with or without a case.
Just a question...do you have a cad file for the case? I have someone i'd like to show it to.
I'd love one with a UK layout.. :<
Should be possible one way or the other.[...]
If it's a kit, and programmable, that means we can change the layout from ANSI to UNIX, does it not?ANSI is a physical layout and UNIX a logical? But I think you can.
How much individualism do you think is possible, concerning different layouts? When regarding the HHKB as your biggest competitor (even more so now, as the miniguru and the HHKB will have similar price tags), it would make sense, to offer a HHKB layout.With the mass production version I objected any deviations from the standard layout. Because it meant than a lot of people had to be converted to using a second layer and I thought that would be enough for a first step.
That schematic shows an LED in each switch ;-)
But no resistors... what's the plan?
the LED's are self the resistor's ;-)
Provided Signature Plastics can do double shot keys using transparent plastic for the symbols, it would be possible to
Sadly they can't.
[...]
With the mini series I'm not as firm. If there are enough requests for a certain layout it should be possible.
Personally, I'm still with the standard layout because
- standard Cherry keycaps will fit immediately, this may keep the cost of the kit down for some
- I like the big backspace key
- I really dislike enter and backspace being too close
- with two additional layers there are more than 170 keys. If you want it all on layer 1 this may not be the right 'board for you ;-)
Having that said, putting a small key at the right of right shift may be good. Replacing the right three modifiers in the bottom row with 4 small keys may be good either.
I don't think replacing the left three bottom row modifiers with 4 standard keys would be good for ex. because this would make the (thumb pressed) fn key smaller which is a vital key on this keyboard (same on the right side).
But I put this up for discussion.[...]
F*ck, I thought I had seen transparent in both color rings.
Any more details on why not?
So I guess it's no LEDs then. :-(
UNIX layout is not just logical. The main difference is that the space where the backspace key is in the ANSI layout is actually 2 keys (|\ and `~, left to right) in the UNIX layout.
Everything else could just be remapped in software though. This is actually the primary reason that I object so strongly when anyone makes stupid "HHKB killer" comments about a keyboard with a 2-wide backspace key in the upper right corner.[...]
You cannot imitate every layout by remapping. Sometimes the position of certain keys also is very important.
Welcome to GeekHack!
Nice! Lavazza rocks =)
I have a set of their cappuccino mugs.
What are you proposing again Lowpoly do? I figure he'll do what he wants to do.
I'd say post #774 is a tad late for that.
Willkommen Geekhack!
Or something like that.
I tune to tiger stripes to know if I have it all dialed in right periodically with a naked portafilter.Show Image(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5061387982_e8c8ef30d0_z.jpg)
Anyway, since you bring up coffee here's a nice pour. I always aim for Tiger Stripes. 4 days after roasting is DA BEST!
Have you seen Osama Bin Laden lately?
Any more specific estimates on when a mini series or a kit will be available? Mini series would be awesome, but a kit will be bought as well. :)
Are there any more detailed reasons why the production of keyboard was canceled? Really like to have my hands on one of these once a day.\
Just a suggestion to lowpoly: don't do the mistake KBC did with poker, the switches should be rotated with the led slot UP (and the cherry writing upside down), this will made any backlit mod easier.
Add wireless functionality 2.4ghz or bluetooth :D
Very good point.
Anyone knows where to get plate mountable Cherry stabilizers?.
Mouser have them (http://se.mouser.com/Cherry-Electrical/Electromechanical/Switches/Switch-Hardware/_/N-5g2rZ1z0zlgh/), compare part numbers to cherry's data sheet (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm). They provide free shipping if you spend enough, the amount seems to differ from country to country though. Searching for the cherry product id also turns up components not in stock. The minimum quantity might be high then though, I think, I never ordered anything from them not in stock...
I've been trying out both Eagle and KiCAD for designing keyboard PCBs and I thought KiCAD was plenty enough and easier to work with than Eagle. My experience with PCB design is very limited though. Here is my still sort of unfinished guide (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Design+your+own+Teensy+keyboard+in+KiCAD+how-to+guide). I have a set of PCBs arriving on Tuesday from pcbwing.com (http://pcbwing.com).
First, consider 3D printing the case instead of milling it. Shapeways (http://www.shapeways.com/) is the way to go. There are various materials (http://www.shapeways.com/materials/) on your disposal with different structural, mechanical and optical characteristics, and of course with different costs. You could even open your shop (http://www.shapeways.com/shops) there, upload the case design and sell the cases without you doing any additional work for some profit. Customers could choose which material they prefer and order whatever they like. It'd be also useful to try to Rit Dye some of the prints. Even if you'll ultimately choose to mill the case, 3D printing is the choice of rapid prototyping technology for this kind of work to do some initial iterations and refine your model.There was a long 3D printing article in German c't magazine lately. I did a few calculations and found a 3D printed case to be quite expensive. A milled one may be expensive too, so 3D printing is not off the table. But for prototypes, I can manually mill it myself which is time consuming but cheap.
Second, I think that aiming for LED backlighting is overkill, especially considering your modest skills (no offense) in this specific area. You should first try to design a 2-layer PCB first without LEDs.True, no LEDs in version 1. Still, it might be good to put the switches rotated, see above.
gEDA and KiCad are free packages but they are very much limited. Eagle is a semi-professional package providing acceptable productivity. It's not cheap (http://www.cadsoftusa.com/prices.htm) for the size of your PCB but you may wanna find a friend who has it on his computer and use Eagle on his machine. (I'm not advocating piracy, just trying to explain that using a low-end package will make your work very hard.) As for PCB design software OrCAD and Altium Designer is the **** if you happen to have a small fortune, but those are probably overkill for a relatively simple PCB like yours.Eagle is not cheap for the size we're talking about here. This would make it difficult for others to work on the design. Target (similar to Eagle) is priced by pins and better for a keyboard pcb. However, I figured most parts have to be done manually anyway, so KiCad will do. I also liked that KiCad said it supported Wings3D for the 3D representation of a part. And I had built the switches in Wings already (turned out is uses .wrl what can be written by almost any decent 3D package). Also there's already at least one successful KiCad project here in the mod forum, or even two.
Third, as for manufacturing the PCB, you could choose the same "upload your design, make others manufacture it and profit from it" approach as in the case of Shapeways shops with BatchPCB (http://batchpcb.com/). If you choose this way then go through-hole for easy manual assembly but if you wanna get the PCBs assembled then using surface mount components would be more economical and in this case E-TekNet (http://e-teknet.com/) is the way to go but they don't provide you a shop because that wouldn't make much sense for individual orders considering the high setup costs of pick and place machines so you've gotta mass order in this case.It will be through-hole.
Fourth, you should use an AVR as the MCU with a USB core. The ATmega*U* and AT90USB* family will work well for sure. Online (http://www.avrfreaks.net/) and library (http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/LUFA.php) support is great and you can do all kinds of fancy things with a general purpose MCU like that. Reading (bit-banging) PS/2 signals (for the trackpoint) in an interrupt handler while communicating through USB is solvable with a single MCU. Just make sure you breadboard your circuit before ordering any PCBs. The Teensy (or any developer board that utilize the above MCUs) is good for breadboarding. As these MCUs are only available in SMD packages you'll have to break them out (with a breakout board) if you wanna make a through-hole design for manual assembly.I want to use the Teensy. Programming is already done (including the Pointing Stick) and it is only $16.
Where did you get the trackpad from and what's the price for various quantities?I'm not going to disclose this, sorry. I already put some strain on the distributor, so far for nothing.
PS.: If you have any questions, please PM me.Thank you and thanks for writing that post.
However, I figured most parts have to be done manually anyway, so KiCad will do. I also liked that KiCad said it supported Wings3D for the 3D representation of a part. And I had built the switches in Wings already (turned out is uses .wrl what can be written by almost any decent 3D package). Also there's already at least one successful KiCad project here in the mod forum, or even two.KiCad is quite a good choice really, the file format is text so the fiddly stuff of positioning switches can be scripted (I used perl). My script and some symbols for Cherry switches etc can be found here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:16103&p=315184&viewfull=1#post315184), and more were posted by PrinsValium subsequently.
Glad to hear you're still interested in this.
You can reverse switch orientation on both high profile Filcos and low profile Cherries. Just tried it.
KiCad is quite a good choice really, the file format is text so the fiddly stuff of positioning switches can be scripted (I used perl). My script and some symbols for Cherry switches etc can be found here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:16103&p=315184&viewfull=1#post315184), and more were posted by PrinsValium subsequently.
Anyway, someone mentioned that the MX switches should be put upside down (no, not the wires pointing in the air...). Won't this interfere with keycaps? The MX is slanted at the front, like the keycap. Anybody tried this?
Was a my suggestion...
The keycap won't interfere, btw the led does if you reverse the switch but not the stabilizer, assuming a filco like stabilizer, no problem with the cherry style ones.
I'm not sober enough to understand what you try to say. But Filco style stabilizers will interfere with the switches when they are put upside down. On non-stabilized keys the orientation probably won't matter at all.
is this not the guru-board? i had never heard of the brand/keyboard before so i searched it on gh and this is the number one thread, yet in my skimming of all the pages nothing is ever mentioned... http://www.guru-board.com/ no?
... is the Fingerworks Touchstream though.
Well, this is the 3rd and last try. :) If it stalls again I'll stop it. I have another non-keyboard related project on the horizon. This is a huge project so it's good there is something else that's stopping me from starting immediately. Maybe it will go away while I wait. ;)
As such, I'd wonder if one couldn't re-use the Poker's case and switches.
is this not the guru-board? i had never heard of the brand/keyboard before so i searched it on gh and this is the number one thread, yet in my skimming of all the pages nothing is ever mentioned... http://www.guru-board.com/ no?
lowpoly,
where did you get the Trackpoint from? IBM Spacesaver?
I'm currently thinking of modding a trackpoint into my noppoo very much the same way you did (at least i think so from looking at the photos).
Not sure about the Keys yet, maybe add some MX-Blues on the PCB where the Space Key supports are and reduce the size of the Space to 2 Units...
However, since i'm not particularly good with electronics, how hard was the modding of those? Just rip out the controller from the (Spacesaver?) and putting it in?
Or does anyone know where to get a trackpoint with a USB Controller?
What's inside the case, how deep is the minimum a keyboard like this could be? I imagine a shallower case with pop-up feet would be more portable.
Kickstarter this project!Would be perfect for Kickstarter (lower pledge for self-assemble kit, higher pledge for pre-assembled, etc.), but Kickstarter only takes US projects.
Kickstarter this project!
Kickstarter only do US projects?
What about this, about as far from a US project as you can get, http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1472956791/coworking-collaboration-and-coffee-in-cambodia
To be eligible to start a Kickstarter project, you need to satisfy the requirements of Amazon Payments:
I am 18 years of age or older.
I am a permanent US resident with a Social Security Number (or EIN).
I have a US address, US bank account, and US state-issued ID (driver’s license).
I have a major US credit or debit card.
Mondalaci - long time now see!
You were the FIRST to recognize that I was the Number One Keyboard Expert On the Planet and the Geekhack Community has confirmed your thesis!
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?26781-Do-you-think-Ripster-is-the-1-Keyboard-Expert-on-Planet-Earth
Actually if Lowpoly had shipped this keyboard I might not have won. ;-)
Thanks! Nowadays I'm way too busy partly with testing and developing our custom developed mechanical keyboard which I'm typing on now.
http://www.rockethub.com/ - anyone tried that? Greets Lowpoly, are you the same LP from EP / Sijun? http://www.indiegogo.com/ accepts international funding too (I think?)
Can you share details or photos of this keyboard? Does it have a trackpoint? Keys in straight columns? Anything special about it?
Ah, too bad, I might have given you improvement ideas... I've been modding my keyboards lately with ergonomic enhancements like palm keys, one of which I use to activate mousing on the keyboard, and there's other ideas I'll be implementing next.
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26579
(Attachment) 44268[/ATTACH]
As for the straight columns layout you've made me fall in love with this idea but I'm uncertain about its commercial viability because of its unusual look. We could try that over time, though. Are there any such boards created or any sketches drawn? I'd also be curious to hear the experience of people using such a board.
The NDA would only be valid until the board gets released. The reason is that we're talking about a fully-fledged, professionally designed product (which is very rare in the Open Hardware world) implementing some innovative ideas and having a very unique design. I wanna empower users by going Open Source but I don't want anybody manufacturing the board before us.
So what exactly is the hold up on this project? Is it the trackpoint? The case? Or just low demand, high cost?
How difficult would it be to make a programmable 60% board without the trackpoint? Neither the pure or poker have a perfect fn layer layout but having it programmable would solve pretty much all problems.
Not particularly =) PCB designing, and controller programming, is pretty well understood around here by now. The less developed part is the case. Litster has been doing multilayer acrylic cases though, and a few very small runs of shapeway cases and the likes have been made as well.
Well the next question is what about making a pcb that would fit in current poker/pure cases? I'm sure a group buy for such a pcb would get a lot of interest (especially with how pokers have become harder to get nowadays).
That's good to hear. What about things like the usb port location or dip switches? A programmable pcb that could drop into trebles poker case would get my money as soon as it would be available.
That's good to hear. What about things like the usb port location or dip switches? A programmable pcb that could drop into trebles poker case would get my money as soon as it would be available.
Same here; that above idea sounds amazing. Maybe one should open a different thread for this though (PrinsValium), so that people are aware of it? I don't think this here is the correct thread for this.
can we move this discussion to its own thread?
ps, i would like to add a trackpoint to your design, prins. i have heard that vortex has sourced the strain gauge element and associated encoder/controller, and can start discussions with them to obtain enough for a GB.
This thread is way beyond the point where it is possible to browse through anyways...we can put it on a daughterboard and have treble do the case design to fit the extra depth once the pcb sandwich is designed. the current cases on the market kind of suck anyway for other reasons.
I don't remember if I kept the track point hole on the Phantom design. The guy who wanted there to be one never came around with the exact location or size. Track points have been the slow and painful death of some other projects already, no? One thing that is for sure is that it is not going to fit into the PCB design nor are there any pins free on the controller. So in any case it would need to be a separate unit that fits through the PCB somewhere. I dont know if there would be any room in any of the intended keyboard cases either.
anyway, prins, can you start a new thread for this project?
the original TP IVs are ancient compared to the units that alps now vends for thinkpads and HP units and others. would love if you could do a comparison/potentially even tune for similar response to a standalone thinkpad board: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetails/0B47189/460/60AC6A0372B14F5BA7B12F1FF88E33C7I would be very interested to see a comprehensive review of various generations of thinkpad trackpoints, ideally also including comparisons to other OEMs’ trackpoint-style pointers.
still the gold standard in eraser nubs as far as i'm concerned ;)
the original TP IVs are ancient compared to the units that alps now vends for thinkpads and HP units and others. would love if you could do a comparison/potentially even tune for similar response to a standalone thinkpad board: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetails/0B47189/460/60AC6A0372B14F5BA7B12F1FF88E33C7Feels similar to my T41 Thinkpad as far as activation force is concerned. It is hard to compare a 5mm stick to a 27mm one though. The software is different too. It does need tiny pressure from above or it won't work. I think you apply this naturally when the stick is between the keycaps, just to get some friction. With the stick sticking out, you can theoretically apply force from the side alone or even from below, but it is not made for that.
What flex sensor are you using? Is that a custom PCB? (It looks purple; OSHPark by any chance?)No, not OSHPark. It's a complete unit. Let me get my orders in first before I disclose the stick info. Shouldn't be long. :D
Ouch, those narrow metal sticks look like they'd be painful to use for an extended period or in high-intensity situations. You're at 4mm of metal, compared to 6mm of rubber for the narrowest real TrackPoint cap, the "classic dome" style. And the classic dome already leaves a crater in your finger, which feels rather weird until you get used to it.It's possible to exchange the stick. The 2.8mm one is too thin and not the way to go. 4mm is fine for me. Bigger, like the traditional square, is no problem too but not necessary IMO. I was never happy with the traditional caps. The cat tongues wear off quickly and the rubber ones get slippery. And you really only need little force when pointing. More for press-to-scroll and tapping.
i think alps is the only OEM of the strain gauge pointers, but i'm happy to be proven wrong. cap sense is like, the new thing in small micros due to the proliferation of touchscreen devices, so it's a good direction to go. that said, the assembly there looks a little finicky, both to build and to source. you should be able to do cap sense with just an elastomer disc above the lower electrode array and then a flanged conductive stick (doesn't have to be metal, just conductive).The 1.1mm stick is too thin. I could bend it easily while in the lathe. It works though. 1.3mm should be fine. Speaking of autocalibration, I never had problems with crawling so far. Always a problem with my TP IV, sometimes on my Thinkpad (but rarely).
the bigger thing is that you're going to have to run a lot of autocalibration routines to deal with the relatively large variations in absolute cap values between users elastomer tolerances, etc. the strain gauge solution is so nice because it's purely resistive, and yet pretty precise. (unicomp has a compressive pressure resistance mechanism that is easy to encode but not very precise at all..)
No, not OSHPark. It's a complete unit. Let me get my orders
in first before I disclose the stick info. Shouldn't be long. :D
crawling was the autocalibration routine and triggered periodically without any feedback from the circuit (except for a watchdog timer). i'm suggesting something similar with your unit's firmware.With my Trackpoints (IV and Thinkpad) the calibration got confused easily. Especially with longer usage I suspect them to set a new zero in the meantime but wrong of course. Then, when I stop moving it would interpret the real zero as movement resulting in crawl. This would stop after a couple of seconds.
If these are available without tearing them out of a donor keyboard it would be fantastic! In any case, I love your longish, skinny metal extension, too. It could really ease the integration challenge...New units, not harvested.
in fact, your little stick harness looks a heck of a lot like the unicomp mechanism,The stick and clamp are just a mechanical extension.
and you can pretty much assumed that the screw in it is at some point going to start backing out over time.This would be a mechanical failure? I know I could use Weicon Lock or Loctite on the thread but these can be a pain if you want to change something.
you _cannot_ assume any static thresholds for an electromechanical device like this..I don't have to worry about calibration. Not sure if I understand you?
in your case this means a very loose mechanism and calibration at factory to this loose mechanism.It's not loose. And the ASIC does the calibration.
ah, gotcha. yep, i was just saying that one or the other has to happen, but that the asic-based closed loop calibration is by far the better option. good deal. i'm pretty excited this is coming back to life by the way.in your case this means a very loose mechanism and calibration at factory to this loose mechanism.It's not loose. And the ASIC does the calibration.
I think I misunderstood you somewhere along the way. Thought you were saying I had to do the calibration myself.
who's been working on this vision for yearsWell, there were some breaks... :D
Some years back I had a thought about how cool it would be to have two trackpointsRight now the plan is to provide two additional stick positions in the case (for JKM and DFC) and two zif cable connectors on the pcb with connections to different mcu pins. So it should be possible. I don't have quotes for the case yet so we may have to simplify. :( Hopefully not.
1) The two trackpoints on this hypothetical keyboard don't have to peek out between the keys. They can be on the front side of the keyboard, where the Miniguru has mouse buttons. They'd be used with the thumbs. This sounds like it could make some of the engineering easier.Maybe with another stick unit. The one I have is integrated with the pcb and it looks like it will be too wide for that.
←→ zoomNice. :cool: You can also put more than one function on a single stick by reading pressure (which is how press-to-scroll works, edit:I think this is what you mean by holding). Precise tapping isn't easy and if done sloppy the firmware can confuse it with short press-to-scroll or movement. Pulling doesn't work with the units I have. I think the stick firmware filters it.
→← unzoom/pinch
↑↓ rotate clockwise
↓↑ rotate ccw
There's more things that could do something:
- ↑↑, ↓↓, ←←, →→ - pulling both trackpoints the same way
- tapping one and then pulling it
- tapping+holding one and pulling the other
- pulling one ↕︎ and the other ↔︎
First pcbs (controller board) came today:Show Image(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/first_pcb.jpg)
Not likely that these will work out of the box.
Got a lot more because of over production, 14 instead of 5.
No, not yet, sorry. :( We have to make a breakout board before it is usable in DIY projects. It's on the list.
but it turned out to be prohibitively expensive with each module being $20.
One thing I'm wondering is do you have an approximate cost of the modules? I recently was investigating how much it would cost to build a keyboard made with 10 trackpoints but it turned out to be prohibitively expensive with each module being $20.Hi, after some research and googling find some possible variants:
I know I test the patience of some of you and I apologize for that. :(
Guys, laptop trackpoints are not really suitable. They are way too short to fit in a keyboard with full travel keys. What is needed is trackpoints like the one used in Unicomp endurapro me thinks.Yes, it too short. But it depends where you install stick or you can use exteeender :) Who knows is it possible to get small joystick with rotation support?
First switch pcbs came today:Looking good, really excited for this. #HYPEShow Image(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/switch_pcb_rev_a.jpg)
The LED connectors are not connected, except F, J and Esc. No disco lights for now. :p But because all the "expensive" parts are on the controller pcb (except touch control), the switch pcb is easy to replace later on.
Several alternative switch positions for those who want to solder :D like
- ISO
- 5 1u keys in the lower right
- 1u key right of right shift (making "L" cursor block possible)
- 2 1u keys instead of backspace
- support for centered and offset space bar switches
- centered and offset CapsLock
If everything works out as expected these will be supported in the programming software as well (see small handles. Backspace came later, I still have to fix the design):Show Image(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/programmer_02.jpg)
I think we will only do regular ISO and ANSI though. But if you have the keycaps and want to mod, you can.
If you mean a key right of right shift then yes.
First switch pcbs came today:Show Image(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/switch_pcb_rev_a.jpg)
The LED connectors are not connected, except F, J and Esc. No disco lights for now. :p But because all the "expensive" parts are on the controller pcb (except touch control), the switch pcb is easy to replace later on.
Several alternative switch positions for those who want to solder :D like
- ISO
- 5 1u keys in the lower right
- 1u key right of right shift (making "L" cursor block possible)
- 2 1u keys instead of backspace
- support for centered and offset space bar switches
- centered and offset CapsLock
If everything works out as expected these will be supported in the programming software as well (see small handles. Backspace came later, I still have to fix the design):Show Image(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/programmer_02.jpg)
I think we will only do regular ISO and ANSI though. But if you have the keycaps and want to mod, you can.
Is there like a notification email list or something?
nandop: wrong thread? ;D
2nd CNC case:Show Image(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/cnc_case.jpg)
nandop: wrong thread? ;D
2nd CNC case:Show Image(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/cnc_case.jpg)
I didn't read this entire thread, so if this was already discussed, I apologize.
Lenovo holds the patent to the most up-to-date version of the Trackpoint design, while Unicomp owns the older version (that's my understanding anyway). Unicomp's is terrible--I just returned an Endurapro because of how lame the trackpoint was. Lenovo's version gets rave reviews and I was wondering if it's possible for a small indie guy such as lowpoly to license their Trackpoint to use in his MiniGuru? Would the cost be prohibitive?
Oh man, when you greeted me upon my arrival here at GH, I had no idea you were working on this project! This thing looks amazing and I'm definitely in the camp of "take my money naowwwww!" for this beautiful piece of work. Can't wait for it to finally become available for purchase.Thanks. :)
BTW, are you still working in CG?
So if we wanted to try our own design the best way to get one of those pointers would be from a ThinkPad?For the keyboard in the first post, I took a Trackpoint 4 from an old IBM rubber dome 'board. Can't look up the model # right now but it should be here somewhere. The advantage is that you don't have to make an extender.
Lenovo holds the patent to the most up-to-date version of the Trackpoint design, while Unicomp owns the older version (that's my understanding anyway). Unicomp's is terrible--I just returned an Endurapro because of how lame the trackpoint was. Lenovo's version gets rave reviews and I was wondering if it's possible for a small indie guy such as lowpoly to license their Trackpoint to use in his MiniGuru? Would the cost be prohibitive?I think the Unicomp patent expired. Al least the USPTO calculator said that some years ago. What Lenovo added after that - I don't know. I plan to use a commercially available stick that comes with its own patents.
So if we wanted to try our own design the best way to get one of those pointers would be from a ThinkPad?For the keyboard in the first post, I took a Trackpoint 4 from an old IBM rubber dome 'board. Can't look up the model # right now but it should be here somewhere. The advantage is that you don't have to make an extender.
Edit: IBM KPD8923Lenovo holds the patent to the most up-to-date version of the Trackpoint design, while Unicomp owns the older version (that's my understanding anyway). Unicomp's is terrible--I just returned an Endurapro because of how lame the trackpoint was. Lenovo's version gets rave reviews and I was wondering if it's possible for a small indie guy such as lowpoly to license their Trackpoint to use in his MiniGuru? Would the cost be prohibitive?I think the Unicomp patent expired. Al least the USPTO calculator said that some years ago. What Lenovo added after that - I don't know. I plan to use a commercially available stick that comes with its own patents.
We provided connectors for the Sprintek in the last revision. But right now I'm on the edge with even getting samples because of two independent broken sticks reported.
What was the boy robot for? R&D for a commercial product?Internal research project with no specific goal.
With that type of project under your belt, I'm sure you'll get the MiniGuru out there as a product--at least on the tech side. I don't remember what your business background is, or if you intend to run the business end of it yourself. Didn't you run your own studio at one point, or were you a freelancer?I always had a company (with my partners) and still have it. Not a studio - we are basically a software company.
6 years...I'm sorry it takes so long. :( Looking back the last half year I wonder where the months went...
Patiently waiting...
It's so close I can taste it...
I'm sorry it takes so long. :( Looking back the last half year I wonder where the months went...
edit: oh, wait, no arrow keys. Any chance of a version with arrow keys (TKL preferred)?No TKL for now :). The pcb has drills and connections for an "L" cursor cluster in the lower right though.
Sorry I can't seem to find a way to search inside an individual thread. Can you tell me what switches you used for the mouse buttons? I'm working on my own trackpoint mod and I'm looking at switch options.Mouse-type micro switches. In the end they evolved to very small SMD types with the switch nub on top, so the button/lever presses down on these. Not sure if the Mouser part # will help you. Whether they work for you depends on lever construction but I can lookup the number if you want.
Long time drooler (wow, has it really been almost 6 years?), first time poster...More than 6 years. :D
How programmable will the mouse buttons be? I use the middle mouse button more than the right mouse button. If we'll only have two buttons available on the keyboard, I'd really like to make the right button a "middle click."
Miniguru + Cherry MX Red = Want. Want NOW.
I'd definitely purchase one. :dance:
Can't disclose the trackpoint source for now, sorry. :(
Engraving the top of the stick is something I thought about already. For knurling it's a bad angle? I'd just like to hit it with something that leaves some scars on the surface. Probably requires a custom tool. Etching? Should not wear off. Engraving should be best for the prototype. But this stick is A36 steel. We'll see how the goldsmith next door will like it. :D
Another pic from that series:Show Image(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/miniguru_with_note4_top.jpg)
Will this ever become true and orderable.. even a kit would be great! I waaaaaant it since years.. I thing 7 at least :)
tent:wq
I agree.. but are there yodas available? I do not think so..
I just upgraded the nub on my board from sandpaper to titanium ;DShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/RCXaS0X.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/kFXiBa9.jpg)
@lowpoly While we're at it, where did you get that nice phone stand?
I thought I had this thread on email notification...I just upgraded the nub on my board from sandpaper to titanium ;DShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/RCXaS0X.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/kFXiBa9.jpg)
Looking great. How did you do it?
Mind sharing a picture of it? I want to make one like that. I'm currently using a can opener as a stand.@lowpoly While we're at it, where did you get that nice phone stand?
I made it from aluminum flower wire. You can bend it by hand if the radius is not too small. Some paracord for the hinge and shrink tubing for the feet.
Can't disclose the trackpoint source for now, sorry. :(