Author Topic: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F  (Read 2353947 times)

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Offline consolation

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1150 on: Thu, 17 August 2017, 01:26:16 »
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.

Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.

Breaking a Model M apart is nothing. I have enough springs for my future new model f.

The flippers should have finished production. The only parts missing are the springs, and I have the springs.

I don't understand why they won't ship my kits without the springs.

I believe model M and F springs are different anyway.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1151 on: Fri, 18 August 2017, 21:44:44 »
The project was featured on IBM's official Tumblr page today!

http://ibmblr.tumblr.com/post/164338069961/love-at-first-type-many-love-stories-start-with

Offline Giorgio

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1152 on: Fri, 18 August 2017, 22:35:09 »
The project was featured on IBM's official Tumblr page today!

http://ibmblr.tumblr.com/post/164338069961/love-at-first-type-many-love-stories-start-with

Fantastic endorsement. To be really happy do we need also Lexmark's statement??  :))

Is Tumblr as old as the model F?

Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1153 on: Sun, 20 August 2017, 08:53:19 »
I came late to the party on this one. Will there be another chance to order a board, or am I misreading things?
I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1154 on: Sun, 20 August 2017, 09:00:10 »
 InvidiousIgnoramus you can still order one on www.ModelFKeyboards.com!

Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1155 on: Sun, 20 August 2017, 09:18:44 »
InvidiousIgnoramus you can still order one on www.ModelFKeyboards.com!
Can you explain exactly how your "pay as you go" payment works? I'm not sure i can drop it all in one go, probably half now and the other half towards the end of the week.
I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1156 on: Sun, 20 August 2017, 17:48:19 »
 InvidiousIgnoramus feel free to just place the full order when you have the funds at the end of the week (preferable). 

If you must pay half at a time, the way to do a downpayment is to place an order for all the items you want and just choose the "other payment" option.  Then for your down payment, place a separate order for each deposit/payment using the store item "$1 increments."  https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/other-customizations-in-1-increments/

Offline consolation

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1157 on: Sun, 20 August 2017, 21:09:28 »
...

Just out of curiosity, did you contact IBM and ask them for the technical package (all the measurements and specs) for the F-type? They seem quite taken with the idea, might let you even use an IBM logo on the boards; an official IBM Ellipse F square plate, would be wicked.

Offline Giorgio

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1158 on: Sun, 20 August 2017, 21:48:00 »
I think that IBM sold and licensed everything to Lexmark and then to Unicomp? Anyway I agree that having measurements and specs down to the micron would have been great! Above all for the composition of the capacitive plastic. It's incredible how many variables are there in a relatively low tech field like this...

...

Just out of curiosity, did you contact IBM and ask them for the technical package (all the measurements and specs) for the F-type? They seem quite taken with the idea, might let you even use an IBM logo on the boards; an official IBM Ellipse F square plate, would be wicked.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1159 on: Sun, 20 August 2017, 22:28:30 »
consolation the R&D on measurements and materials was finished in 2015-2016 after speaking with a number of engineers, and everything is 100% working and correct.  Now we are in production.  Giorgio is correct that IBM is long out of keyboard production.  I doubt Lexmark or Unicomp received much of the Model F production equipment/specs besides Lexmark working with NOS parts and refurbishing some F's in the 90s).

I will not be using any IBM trade marks or logos on the keyboards.

Offline axtran

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1160 on: Mon, 21 August 2017, 05:49:42 »
Ah! I thought that at least for the keys they were on par with old IBM, since they use their equipment!

You're making a great effort with this project, and I'm happy that many people have followed you. I'm actually searching for an old model m, to understand how much I like buckling springs. Probably I'll join in the next rounds!

Hopefully, to save you some time and money if you ever think about it, Unicomp quality is nowhere near what a classic Model M is like. That's why I appreciate the effort going into this GB from Ellipse. I had so many mismanufactured stems that were just assembled anyway with my old Unicomp boards.

MX Silent > MX Vintage Black > Everything Else

Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1161 on: Mon, 21 August 2017, 08:02:34 »
I've got one last question, ellipse. You say the cases are made out of zinc or aluminum. If I go with the classic style case (specifically the F62) it will be zinc, yes? This is the most important part to me.

Edit: I do want to clarify, I'm just going to go ahead and follow your advice and pay all at once. I don't really need to wait, so i don't know why i was going to do it that way anyway.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 August 2017, 13:00:56 by InvidiousIgnoramus »
I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline zacheadams

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1162 on: Mon, 21 August 2017, 16:11:14 »
I've got one last question, ellipse. You say the cases are made out of zinc or aluminum. If I go with the classic style case (specifically the F62) it will be zinc, yes? This is the most important part to me.

Edit: I do want to clarify, I'm just going to go ahead and follow your advice and pay all at once. I don't really need to wait, so i don't know why i was going to do it that way anyway.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questions/question/why-not-a-zinc-option-for-the-compact-versions/

So implicitly from that response, yes, the F62 and F77 "classic style cases" are both zinc, the F62 Ultracompact is aluminum.

Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1163 on: Mon, 21 August 2017, 16:18:39 »
I've got one last question, ellipse. You say the cases are made out of zinc or aluminum. If I go with the classic style case (specifically the F62) it will be zinc, yes? This is the most important part to me.

Edit: I do want to clarify, I'm just going to go ahead and follow your advice and pay all at once. I don't really need to wait, so i don't know why i was going to do it that way anyway.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questions/question/why-not-a-zinc-option-for-the-compact-versions/

So implicitly from that response, yes, the F62 and F77 "classic style cases" are both zinc, the F62 Ultracompact is aluminum.
And that's all I needed to know. Sweet.

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I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline consolation

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1164 on: Mon, 21 August 2017, 23:18:08 »
consolation the R&D on measurements and materials was finished in 2015-2016 after speaking with a number of engineers, and everything is 100% working and correct.  Now we are in production.  Giorgio is correct that IBM is long out of keyboard production.  I doubt Lexmark or Unicomp received much of the Model F production equipment/specs besides Lexmark working with NOS parts and refurbishing some F's in the 90s).

I will not be using any IBM trade marks or logos on the keyboards.

Sigh, that's the problem with having people sign up at the end of a long term project - we all want to reinvent the wheel... still think you should consider CoolerMaster Style TK option for the numpad, but I'll shush about that. I wasn't suggesting badging the keyboards as IBM, I literally meant a (model M style) square badge as feelie/curio.  Congrats on the awesome work so far, truly impressive.

Offline duynguyenle

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1165 on: Tue, 22 August 2017, 05:58:01 »
consolation the R&D on measurements and materials was finished in 2015-2016 after speaking with a number of engineers, and everything is 100% working and correct.  Now we are in production.  Giorgio is correct that IBM is long out of keyboard production.  I doubt Lexmark or Unicomp received much of the Model F production equipment/specs besides Lexmark working with NOS parts and refurbishing some F's in the 90s).

I will not be using any IBM trade marks or logos on the keyboards.

Sigh, that's the problem with having people sign up at the end of a long term project - we all want to reinvent the wheel... still think you should consider CoolerMaster Style TK option for the numpad, but I'll shush about that. I wasn't suggesting badging the keyboards as IBM, I literally meant a (model M style) square badge as feelie/curio.  Congrats on the awesome work so far, truly impressive.

That would mean adding an extra column of keys, which is completely outside of scope for this project (complete reproduction of the original F77 design)
| QFR            | Leeku 1800    | Raptor K1      | Dolch Pac

Offline consolation

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1166 on: Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:04:06 »

That would mean adding an extra column of keys, which is completely outside of scope for this project (complete reproduction of the original F77 design)

We were talking (@ GH?) about printing legends on the numpad, with respect to the nav cluster. CM style replicates a typical TKL nav layout in on the numpad cluster; the classic style is, well... the classic weird numpad nav layout with duplicated arrows etc. AFAIK, we are going with the classic layout for the people who chose numbers+arrow keys. Since the keyboard is programmable, there are no changes to the design; except for legends printed on the keys. Hopefully, the popularity of these keyboards will raise enough interest to make a "CM style" keycaps groupbuy viable after they are shipped. /fingerscrossed  Understandably, Ellipse doesn't want to make even more different keycaps at this stage.



IMHO, the CM layout is much more sensible on a TK board, especially one with only 3 column on the numpad. You could even add arithmetic ops (+,-,/,*) as secondary labels on the arrow keys, with the meta key set to toggle mode, you will have a fully functional numpad AND a fully functional nav cluster.
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:23:11 by consolation »

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1167 on: Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:10:29 »
I really like that CM right block a lot.  Makes sense

Offline consolation

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1168 on: Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:19:22 »
I really like that CM right block a lot.  Makes sense

It puts the nav keys where you have them usually on a full/TKL keyboard, and gives you a numpad. I'll program mine that way and just get used to mismatched labels in the meantime.

PS. The reason I stuck the "meta" label on 0 is to use it as FN toggle lock, with split (HHKB) right shift. Use the Fn as momentary layer select, i.e. you hold it down with the key you want to use; but when pressed with the numpad 0 "meta" it puts the fn key into toggle mode and changes the layer until toggled back. It's a good location as the buttons will be next to each other in the CM layout.
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:30:00 by consolation »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1169 on: Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:40:51 »
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options.  I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project.  It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.

Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1170 on: Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:43:00 »
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options.  I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project.  It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.

Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?

I would definitely buy them if they were available  :thumb:

Offline consolation

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1171 on: Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:50:05 »
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options.  I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project.  It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.

Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?

Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, shipping separately sounds like the best idea. So we can add them to our order once Zed finalises the design? - I'm so stoked.

P.S. I'd add the numeric ops to the arrow keys as secondary labels, since it's an optional add on, people who don't want them can just use the default arrows instead. This is a super rough mock up ->

« Last Edit: Tue, 22 August 2017, 19:02:39 by consolation »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1172 on: Wed, 23 August 2017, 20:47:50 »
Great news - the first top and bottom inner assembly parts from the new tooling arrived today and they meet my specifications!  The radii are perfect to my drawings for all samples.  I expect to do some further evaluation this week and then approve them for production to start!

Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1173 on: Wed, 23 August 2017, 21:06:53 »
Great news - the first top and bottom inner assembly parts from the new tooling arrived today and they meet my specifications!  The radii are perfect to my drawings for all samples.  I expect to do some further evaluation this week and then approve them for production to start!
That's great news!

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I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1174 on: Thu, 24 August 2017, 17:09:43 »
The sample springs met the US spring factory's quality standards, finished production and shipped this week!

They should arrive next week.  I will be examining the specs and testing the springs thoroughly and then they can be approved for production!

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1175 on: Sat, 26 August 2017, 22:09:01 »
Ellipse, I sent you a PM about an order change.  Stoked that things seem to be coming along with more precision from the manufacturers.  Maybe they noticed all of the attention you have been getting lately :)

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1176 on: Sun, 03 September 2017, 14:17:10 »
(reececonrad - replied over PM)

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1177 on: Sun, 03 September 2017, 20:04:56 »
I have just approved production of the top and bottom inner assembly plates!  The latest first run parts passed my quality control.  I am typing on a compact case F77 now with these new plates.

With brand new non-degraded foam (1.6 to 2mm) the cases do require some tools and force to close the inner assembly.  I use clamps, pliers, and a hammer but the factory may devise some kind of tool for more efficient closing.

A tightly compressed inner assembly allows for a strong click in my experience.  Some Model F's with weaker clicks have too much space between the plates.

Using these clamps I also refurbished my F122 this past week with the first F122 foam from the factory and now all is well again.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 September 2017, 20:07:45 by Ellipse »

Offline DZed

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1178 on: Wed, 06 September 2017, 11:07:24 »
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options.  I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project.  It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.

Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?

My apologies for not seeing these posts earlier. Looks like my notification emails for this thread have stopped for some reason. I would be more than happy to work up the art for the CM numpad option.

Consolation, tab on the "." key or num pad return?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1179 on: Tue, 12 September 2017, 21:29:37 »
Production update:

The US factory's aerospace-grade spring samples are technically excellent - they meet or exceed all the tolerances specified - but the spring sound is not yet perfect.  It's a little too sharp/high pitched.  Either the material alloy is off or they were heat treated a little too long/too high a temperature is my guess.  Or maybe the sound dulls a bit over time and with corrosion of the original springs after 30 years.

The factory suggested I have the original springs analyzed at a material analysis lab - I have sent off some original XT springs to a lab.  They can determine with reasonable accuracy the content of the original springs.  We should know more next week.

Meanwhile the main factory is still preparing to finish up production of the remaining parts - inner assembly plates, boxes, inner foam, outside foam, and ultra compact cases.  I am hoping to have these completed parts, key samples from the new mold supplier, and all the springs by early November.

Offline consolation

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1180 on: Tue, 12 September 2017, 21:42:17 »
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options.  I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project.  It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.

Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?

My apologies for not seeing these posts earlier. Looks like my notification emails for this thread have stopped for some reason. I would be more than happy to work up the art for the CM numpad option.

Consolation, tab on the "." key or num pad return?

I think tab would be more useful, as the return is right next to they cluster anyway.

Offline kmba

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1181 on: Tue, 12 September 2017, 22:40:04 »
Production update:

The US factory's aerospace-grade spring samples are technically excellent - they meet or exceed all the tolerances specified - but the spring sound is not yet perfect.  It's a little too sharp/high pitched.  Either the material alloy is off or they were heat treated a little too long/too high a temperature is my guess.  Or maybe the sound dulls a bit over time and with corrosion of the original springs after 30 years.

The factory suggested I have the original springs analyzed at a material analysis lab - I have sent off some original XT springs to a lab.  They can determine with reasonable accuracy the content of the original springs.  We should know more next week.

Meanwhile the main factory is still preparing to finish up production of the remaining parts - inner assembly plates, boxes, inner foam, outside foam, and ultra compact cases.  I am hoping to have these completed parts, key samples from the new mold supplier, and all the springs by early November.

Jesus  :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Is there any affect to my place in line if I were to change my order from an F77 to an F62?
keyboards.

Offline Lagomorph

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1182 on: Wed, 13 September 2017, 06:52:44 »
Production update:

Thanks for the update! Maybe this isn't the right place to ask, but I wonder whether there'd be a market for custom springs for buckling spring keyboards?

Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1183 on: Wed, 13 September 2017, 07:10:26 »
Production update:

Thanks for the update! Maybe this isn't the right place to ask, but I wonder whether there'd be a market for custom springs for buckling spring keyboards?
Funny, I was just wondering that myself yesterday. The only problem I could see with that is it possibly effecting the buckling of the spring. I mean, the spring is always slightly buckled.
I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline DZed

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1184 on: Wed, 13 September 2017, 11:35:20 »
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options.  I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project.  It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.

Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?

My apologies for not seeing these posts earlier. Looks like my notification emails for this thread have stopped for some reason. I would be more than happy to work up the art for the CM numpad option.

Consolation, tab on the "." key or num pad return?

I think tab would be more useful, as the return is right next to they cluster anyway.

No problem at all. My right pinkie expects to find a return key in that area but it is easy enough to work up both versions. If anyone has any other suggestions, let me know.

Offline consolation

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1185 on: Mon, 18 September 2017, 04:11:07 »
No problem at all. My right pinkie expects to find a return key in that area but it is easy enough to work up both versions. If anyone has any other suggestions, let me know.

The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. Maybe we should put numpad enter in its rightful place, problem is that we need the numpad . for decimal separator there in numpad mode.

PS.  How much more complicated / expensive would having the nav symbols in blue be?
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 September 2017, 04:17:00 by consolation »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1186 on: Mon, 18 September 2017, 19:52:35 »
After further discussions with the PCB factories I have discovered some suppliers of PCB materials in Taiwan and China that may be even more close to the 80s originals.  These materials may further enhance the sharpness of the flipper click as a key is pressed on a new Model F.  I have ordered some samples and should get them around month end. 

If this is a noticeable improvement I plan on using them for everyone's keyboards even though I already ordered the ones from the other supplier.

I noticed that the '96 4704 refurbs had weaker/muddier clicks and part of that reason seems to be the '96 manufactured PCB itself. 

PCBs are quick to make (they can fulfill the whole order in under two weeks) so this will not bottleneck the project.  This doesn't affect the controllers which are 100% good and are not being re-made.
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 September 2017, 19:58:37 by Ellipse »

Offline robotsokk

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1187 on: Mon, 18 September 2017, 21:55:11 »
Thanks for the update, Ellipse! Appreciate your continued updates and attention to detail on this project. Looking forward to hearing more about how the PCB samples work out.
@home      @work Swapping out boards... coming soon     wtb

Offline DZed

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1188 on: Tue, 19 September 2017, 12:03:49 »

The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. Maybe we should put numpad enter in its rightful place, problem is that we need the numpad . for decimal separator there in numpad mode.

If we are willing to put the decimal point on a function layer, here are a couple of ideas. I have also aligned the legends so they are more consistent with the num pad/nav pad layers. Upper right quadrant becomes the function layer operators but I am not sold on "Num/Nav" as it will probably have to be significantly smaller text in order to fit. "NP" would fit well but is probably at bit too cryptic. "Lock" could be an option too.


Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1189 on: Tue, 19 September 2017, 17:28:50 »
Someone contacted me through the project web site that he's interested in blue and can chip in $100.

We would need just one or two more interested people (besides the two who replied on this thread earlier - I PMed them) and then we can reach the $500 for tooling.

People have been asking for Carolina Blue, a popular light blue color used by UNC.  Please let me know!  The extra case itself runs $100 and for $100 in tooling you can order as many extra cases as you'd like for the standard $100 price.  You can even order extras and hold on to them, to sell long after production ends.  I think once people see the case in its color and how it turned out, there will be more interest but I am only doing this custom color with one production run because of the tooling.

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1190 on: Tue, 19 September 2017, 18:16:26 »
Someone contacted me through the project web site that he's interested in blue and can chip in $100.

We would need just one or two more interested people (besides the two who replied on this thread earlier - I PMed them) and then we can reach the $500 for tooling.

People have been asking for Carolina Blue, a popular light blue color used by UNC.  Please let me know!  The extra case itself runs $100 and for $100 in tooling you can order as many extra cases as you'd like for the standard $100 price.  You can even order extras and hold on to them, to sell long after production ends.  I think once people see the case in its color and how it turned out, there will be more interest but I am only doing this custom color with one production run because of the tooling.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Is there a post about it?

Offline Atredl

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1191 on: Tue, 19 September 2017, 18:36:09 »
Someone contacted me through the project web site that he's interested in blue and can chip in $100.

We would need just one or two more interested people (besides the two who replied on this thread earlier - I PMed them) and then we can reach the $500 for tooling.

People have been asking for Carolina Blue, a popular light blue color used by UNC.  Please let me know!  The extra case itself runs $100 and for $100 in tooling you can order as many extra cases as you'd like for the standard $100 price.  You can even order extras and hold on to them, to sell long after production ends.  I think once people see the case in its color and how it turned out, there will be more interest but I am only doing this custom color with one production run because of the tooling.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Is there a post about it?
I think he's referring to the anodized blue aluminum case that was mentioned a while back.

Here is the page it was mentioned (idk how to link a specific post in the thread):
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79141.1100

Offline robotsokk

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1192 on: Tue, 19 September 2017, 19:02:54 »
Someone contacted me through the project web site that he's interested in blue and can chip in $100.

We would need just one or two more interested people (besides the two who replied on this thread earlier - I PMed them) and then we can reach the $500 for tooling.

People have been asking for Carolina Blue, a popular light blue color used by UNC.  Please let me know!  The extra case itself runs $100 and for $100 in tooling you can order as many extra cases as you'd like for the standard $100 price.  You can even order extras and hold on to them, to sell long after production ends.  I think once people see the case in its color and how it turned out, there will be more interest but I am only doing this custom color with one production run because of the tooling.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Is there a post about it?
I think he's referring to the anodized blue aluminum case that was mentioned a while back.

Here is the page it was mentioned (idk how to link a specific post in the thread):
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79141.1100

I believe discussion of it starts here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79141.msg2471555#msg2471555

(Also, to link a post you can right-click -> copy link on the link heading, usually the thread title [in red/bold for me] above a given post.)
@home      @work Swapping out boards... coming soon     wtb

Offline Atredl

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[GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1193 on: Wed, 20 September 2017, 05:31:21 »
(Also, to link a post you can right-click -> copy link on the link heading, usually the thread title [in red/bold for me] above a given post.)
Thank you, friend.

Offline consolation

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[GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1194 on: Sat, 23 September 2017, 10:53:40 »

The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. Maybe we should put numpad enter in its rightful place, problem is that we need the numpad . for decimal separator there in numpad mode.

If we are willing to put the decimal point on a function layer, here are a couple of ideas. I have also aligned the legends so they are more consistent with the num pad/nav pad layers. Upper right quadrant becomes the function layer operators but I am not sold on "Num/Nav" as it will probably have to be significantly smaller text in order to fit. "NP" would fit well but is probably at bit too cryptic. "Lock" could be an option too.

I programmed one of my keyboards with both layouts, after couple days usage, my rather subjective findings are:. Return works best as the bottom right button, it makes it really easy to find with your pinky without looking. Personally I find having + and - on the up and down arrows more intuitive, but that could just be me. I'd recommend just having "Nav" for the label, the alternative is obvious from the design, but, do we really need/want the function key there? It's handy for people using traditional ANSI layouts, in which case "Meta", is probably best as it will be their main function key. For split shift/back space users, it works best as a "Lock" key so you can lock the function layer, but it's a "nice to have" not an essential. I found the layout worked amazingly well with split shift, leaving it in numpad mode and using fn+pad for navigation functions. Overall, it's a really good system that gives you nav cluster and numpad functionality in a really intuitive manner.

Offline DZed

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1195 on: Sun, 24 September 2017, 14:23:32 »

The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. Maybe we should put numpad enter in its rightful place, problem is that we need the numpad . for decimal separator there in numpad mode.

If we are willing to put the decimal point on a function layer, here are a couple of ideas. I have also aligned the legends so they are more consistent with the num pad/nav pad layers. Upper right quadrant becomes the function layer operators but I am not sold on "Num/Nav" as it will probably have to be significantly smaller text in order to fit. "NP" would fit well but is probably at bit too cryptic. "Lock" could be an option too.

I programmed one of my keyboards with both layouts, after couple days usage, my rather subjective findings are:. Return works best as the bottom right button, it makes it really easy to find with your pinky without looking. Personally I find having + and - on the up and down arrows more intuitive, but that could just be me. I'd recommend just having "Nav" for the label, the alternative is obvious from the design, but, do we really need/want the function key there? It's handy for people using traditional ANSI layouts, in which case "Meta", is probably best as it will be their main function key. For split shift/back space users, it works best as a "Lock" key so you can lock the function layer, but it's a "nice to have" not an essential. I found the layout worked amazingly well with split shift, leaving it in numpad mode and using fn+pad for navigation functions. Overall, it's a really good system that gives you nav cluster and numpad functionality in a really intuitive manner.

Great feedback! It's a bit ironic that after spending a few days really paying attention to my num pad usage, I came to the conclusion that, for me, having to put the decimal point on a fn layer would probably end up pissing me off. So, I was thinking that your original layout using the return key from the primary section of the board would be the best compromise. I hear you on the natural position of enter in the bottom right though and since nobody else has offered any input for this layout, we will go with your choice.

I think there might be a bit of confusion about the fn layer/key layout though. I was not intending to put an actual fn key on the pad, just showing the fn layer options since this is a pretty unconventional layout and if Ellipse is kind enough to do the printing of these keys, we might as well go all out with any sub legends. I was thinking that the "Nav" or "Lock" fn would be a toggle layer and you could also have the nav controls on a momentary layer as you mentioned. Are we on the same page here?

Offline duncancmt

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1196 on: Tue, 26 September 2017, 10:54:43 »
for me, having to put the decimal point on a fn layer would probably end up pissing me off

Chiming in to agree with DZed. Because of the numpad's close proximity to the primary "enter", I'd vastly prefer a dedicated numpad "." over a numpad "enter".

I'm also bit confused about the nav/lock/fn key, though. Is the idea to have a key that functions like numlock does on a 101-104 key keyboard? I'm having trouble imagining a toggle or momentary key that doesn't cause problems by sharing a physical key with a glyph key.

Offline DZed

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1197 on: Tue, 26 September 2017, 14:54:52 »
for me, having to put the decimal point on a fn layer would probably end up pissing me off

Chiming in to agree with DZed. Because of the numpad's close proximity to the primary "enter", I'd vastly prefer a dedicated numpad "." over a numpad "enter".

I'm also bit confused about the nav/lock/fn key, though. Is the idea to have a key that functions like numlock does on a 101-104 key keyboard? I'm having trouble imagining a toggle or momentary key that doesn't cause problems by sharing a physical key with a glyph key.

The num/nav layers would toggle when you press "Fn" + "0" so there wouldn't be any conflict with sharing a key. You could also do what Consolation mentioned above and have all the nav controls as a momentary layer on the num pad layer as well. This would allow "Fn" + "+" to be the nav up arrow, for example, without having to toggle out of num pad mode. Let me know if some visual aids might help.

Can someone verify that the programming environment for these boards definitely supports toggle layers and such? I tried to download the software a while ago but couldn't get it to work without a keyboard to hook up.

Offline consolation

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1198 on: Tue, 26 September 2017, 22:17:46 »

Great feedback! It's a bit ironic that after spending a few days really paying attention to my num pad usage, I came to the conclusion that, for me, having to put the decimal point on a fn layer would probably end up pissing me off. So, I was thinking that your original layout using the return key from the primary section of the board would be the best compromise. I hear you on the natural position of enter in the bottom right though and since nobody else has offered any input for this layout, we will go with your choice.

I think there might be a bit of confusion about the fn layer/key layout though. I was not intending to put an actual fn key on the pad, just showing the fn layer options since this is a pretty unconventional layout and if Ellipse is kind enough to do the printing of these keys, we might as well go all out with any sub legends. I was thinking that the "Nav" or "Lock" fn would be a toggle layer and you could also have the nav controls on a momentary layer as you mentioned. Are we on the same page here?

Yes we are, same page.

Regarding the decimal point, I think we just put "" & "." on the key and let everyone program their preference as main / function layer.

I have been using an ergodox exclusively the last week and, ironically, trained my right thumb to look for the return key... :rolleyes: now I'd probably find having the decimal there easier. What the experience brought home to me is; as long as your layout is sensible, it's not a big thing to quickly adjust your muscle memory. (BTW & OT - Who thought the default ergodox layout was a good idea? Mind you; it forced me to not be lazy and work out my own one, so maybe it's a stroke of genius.)

Can you point me to the software you were looking at? I'm happy to make a few versions of firmware that can be downloaded to go with the keycaps, or raw data to cut'n'paste into the json file; assuming that's the format, of course.
« Last Edit: Tue, 26 September 2017, 22:26:10 by consolation »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1199 on: Tue, 26 September 2017, 22:52:47 »
The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed! 

The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off."  I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.

Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.