Author Topic: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards  (Read 643671 times)

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2850 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 07:11:17 »
can we see how the uk iso keys came out with a scan please?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2851 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 20:21:21 »
I won't be scanning any other key sets but will be taking photos of each set.

Attached is Zed's draft artwork for the international sublimated key sets.  The factory expects to start production on these in a few days.  If there are any issues please post a reply on this thread.

As a note, these images are drafts and you will not receive all of the keys below in any set.  Each language file contains multiple sets that can be ordered separately (front print, base key set, etc.).

As a note the Apple specific keys in the below proposed artwork would be for new orders only.  I will not be changing any prior front print orders for the new apple front print.

To view them larger, you can click the image and right click to save the file.

« Last Edit: Sun, 18 April 2021, 16:23:45 by Ellipse »

Offline online

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2852 on: Sun, 18 April 2021, 10:10:54 »
Dye sublimation update on the blue printed US ANSI, UK pearl/pebble, and dark gray US ANSI printed key sets:

The factory reports they have completed 150 blue, 50 UK, and 125 gray key sets and will be mailing them to me by express air shipping in the coming days, with the next batch of pearl/pebble US ANSI sublimated key sets. Also sending 60 blue hhkb 6 key sets and the same number of gray sets, plus 15 6 key mac sets each for both these colors. I will be posting photos soon after!

This means that orders containing these key sets will be eligible to get into the queue for shipping assuming everything is in stock (the split shipping option is not available any more) - we are still going in the original shipping order where possible so shipping is still going to be months away for most orders as I am the final bottleneck of the project, inspecting each keyboard and putting each order together one at a time. As noted earlier I am unable to estimate where any one particular order is in the queue but I send out a tracking number by email as soon as each order ships.

Sorting packages are time-consuming and tedious, it's often overlooked by buyers.
Appreciate your hard work.

Offline Hapi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2853 on: Tue, 20 April 2021, 06:59:05 »
I won't be scanning any other key sets but will be taking photos of each set.

Attached is Zed's draft artwork for the international sublimated key sets.  The factory expects to start production on these in a few days.  If there are any issues please post a reply on this thread.

As a note, these images are drafts and you will not receive all of the keys below in any set.  Each language file contains multiple sets that can be ordered separately (front print, base key set, etc.).

As a note the Apple specific keys in the below proposed artwork would be for new orders only.  I will not be changing any prior front print orders for the new apple front print.

To view them larger, you can click the image and right click to save the file.

I know that I am probably the only Czech who ordered the F model. But I am also a crazy enthusiast.
So I would like to know how many sets need to be ordered to make it worthwhile to produce a Czech layout. These are 29 different keys (Red - peacock, green - apple). I want to have a lifetime supply. So I'm willing to order enough. I know it's all about money. So please write me under what conditions it would be possible to implement it.

Keyboard Laout Editor


Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2854 on: Tue, 20 April 2021, 10:20:40 »
Hapi it is OK to produce the full Czech set as long as Zed is ok to create it.  It is not required to produce only the unique keys for a given layout.

Everyone please post here or message me if you'd like the Czech set.

At this point additional language sets are now possible - this was not the case before. Zed is working on Model F quality APL and JIS sets too!  The current list of available sets is on the shop page: "Full key set"

Please do post here if you would personally like to order any other specific language key sets.

Offline Hapi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2855 on: Tue, 20 April 2021, 11:35:23 »
Hapi it is OK to produce the full Czech set as long as Zed is ok to create it.  It is not required to produce only the unique keys for a given layout.

Everyone please post here or message me if you'd like the Czech set.

At this point additional language sets are now possible - this was not the case before. Zed is working on Model F quality APL and JIS sets too!  The current list of available sets is on the shop page: "Full key set"

Please do post here if you would personally like to order any other specific language key sets.

I understand. I'm ok with full keyset. I plan to buy 10 US ANSI sets if you Czech was not possible. If it is Czech, I can easily buy them 20. I could even think about a higher number.

Just for info: Peacock is very old Czech keyset. Now very popular on Drop. Modern Czech layout has some differences.

Offline DZed

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2856 on: Tue, 20 April 2021, 14:11:15 »
Hapi it is OK to produce the full Czech set as long as Zed is ok to create it.  It is not required to produce only the unique keys for a given layout.

Everyone please post here or message me if you'd like the Czech set.

At this point additional language sets are now possible - this was not the case before. Zed is working on Model F quality APL and JIS sets too!  The current list of available sets is on the shop page: "Full key set"

Please do post here if you would personally like to order any other specific language key sets.

I understand. I'm ok with full keyset. I plan to buy 10 US ANSI sets if you Czech was not possible. If it is Czech, I can easily buy them 20. I could even think about a higher number.

Just for info: Peacock is very old Czech keyset. Now very popular on Drop. Modern Czech layout has some differences.

Hi Hapi, we also have a discussion about Czech sets going on over on DT. I am doing the set and trying to figure out which layouts are preferred. Do you want Apple, Peacock, IBM or Modern?

http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/KBD243.pdf
« Last Edit: Tue, 20 April 2021, 14:19:01 by DZed »

Offline Hapi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2857 on: Tue, 20 April 2021, 15:00:25 »
Hi Hapi, we also have a discussion about Czech sets going on over on DT. I am doing the set and trying to figure out which layouts are preferred. Do you want Apple, Peacock, IBM or Modern?

http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/KBD243.pdf

Hello, DZed.

I personally prefer the Apple layout.

In general, Czech layouts differ only in sublegends. Most keyboards do not have them. The Czech layout in windows has these characters placed below the letters (ad document in your post) and there are no sublegends on the keyboards. The alternate characters that are below the numbers have been completely useless. Most users use only the at sign. Programmers usually use an English keyboard or a Czech programmers layout. It is the same as English and Czech characters are alternative. That's why I think Apple layout is also useful for windows and linux users. The absolute best are the keys with English fron-printed legends, just like peacock has. The ideal Czech layout would therefore look like the one in the picture in this post.

Offline DZed

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2858 on: Tue, 20 April 2021, 15:29:31 »
The absolute best are the keys with English fron-printed legends, just like peacock has. The ideal Czech layout would therefore look like the one in the picture in this post.

I'm not sure if we can do all the Peacock/English front print legends but I will do the Apple style layout at least. We will also send you a file for approval before going to the printers but I have a few other languages to do before I can get to the Czech set.

Offline Hapi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2859 on: Tue, 20 April 2021, 15:40:34 »
The absolute best are the keys with English fron-printed legends, just like peacock has. The ideal Czech layout would therefore look like the one in the picture in this post.

I'm not sure if we can do all the Peacock/English front print legends but I will do the Apple style layout at least. We will also send you a file for approval before going to the printers but I have a few other languages to do before I can get to the Czech set.

Sure, that'll be great.  :thumb:

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2860 on: Wed, 21 April 2021, 17:22:14 »
There is talk over on the Deskthority project thread about new additional key sets:  I hope to offer the beam spring type, beam spring apl type layouts for the new Model F keys as well as regular APL (both light orange and red variations) and JIS. 

Zed has also just added the 1U Mac keys requested and color options for the keys (see the extra keys page on the project web site for the new graphics) - green Alt keys, gray SSK front print keys, and green SysRq front print.  No other colors or other options are currently available until I see how the green sublimation turns out.

If interested in any of these sets or color keys please message me or email me so I can let you know when they are ready to order (let me know which you are interested in).  First I'm going to make sure one of each comes out nice from the factory.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2861 on: Mon, 26 April 2021, 10:55:13 »
Dye sublimation update - a whole bunch of keys are expected to arrive by air at some point next week, including blue printed US, dark gray printed US, pearl/pebble UK, and regular pearl/pebble US (and associated HHKB 6 key sets for each option). Once this batch arrives I will have enough keys to start mailing out the key sets for the folks who chose the separate shipping option, alongside my mailings of the full keyboards and key sets for those who have been waiting for everything to ship all at once.

Only the "all in stock" shipping and all in stock separate shipping will go out - the factory is doing all the front printing stuff and extra keys last, expected towards the end of May (so those who have ordered F1-F12, Industrial SSK, and extra keys will get everything starting after I receive those keys - there is no "separate separate" shipping option to get your main key set a little earlier and the standard separate shipping option is no longer available).

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2862 on: Thu, 29 April 2021, 18:38:23 »
As a note I have just published the April update on the project web site blog - a good gathering of all the activity since the last blog post. 

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

In the update, I have added a note on how to mount the solenoid L bracket with one of the screw-on bumpers:

The L bracket case hole is 6-32 thread so you can actually use the L bracket as the nut for any bumpers with 6-32 threads or with a 6-32 screw that you can order elsewhere. For example the 1 inch tall bumpers on the project web site include a 6-32 thread screw.  No need to drill another hole in the case if you want both a screw on bumper as well as a solenoid! Unfortunately the 1/2 inch bumpers known as medium with the threaded stud are 8-32 thread I believe so youd have to buy a stick on bumper or drill another hole, or mount the solenoid internally with something like 3M VHB tape. Might be better to purchase a set of 1/2 inch bumpers with a hole in the middle, instead of with an included screw, so that you can use a 6-32 screw of your own.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2863 on: Mon, 03 May 2021, 19:55:15 »
Question to reflow soldering / PCB experts: is anyone interested in a handful of (free) xwhatsit controllers that did not pass quality control standards? Example issues: row or column not detected, entire controller not detected by computer.

The controllers would be free and I would cover the cost of shipping in the US, with the only requirement that you make a good faith attempt to repair them and let me know in detail how to fix them, so I can pass along the info to the factory. Maybe you'd need to remove one working shift register chip over to another PCB and keep one or more of the PCBs as "for parts" units, for example. I'd also request that you fix and mail me back one or two of the many controllers I send over, just to show the factory that they are in fact repairable.

In the attached comparison, my suspicion is that the PCB on the top had its USB-C connector soldered at such an angle that caused the controller to not work. It just shows every gray dot as pressed in the xwhatsit capsense utility program, at any threshold value (xwhatsit's Model F testing PDF notes that a working controller should display no gray dots at the very first startup and should initially auto calibrate to threshold value 681). The one on the bottom is tested and working.
267720-0

Offline rknize

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2864 on: Tue, 04 May 2021, 10:28:36 »
That connector does look a bit shifted, but from what I can see in this pic I would say it's not enough to cause a problem.  USB will either work or it won't in a case like this.  If the device is enumerating, then chances are the USB connector is OK.

If you can't find anyone else to enthusiastically look at these, I can have a crack at a few.  I don't have a keyboard to test them on yet, but I can do a smoke test at least.  Are there any components on the bottom of the PCB that would prevent the use of a hot plate?
Russ

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2865 on: Wed, 05 May 2021, 21:29:05 »
The next batch of key sets arrived!  The first UK key set is going out next week as part of Chyrosran22's order (photo below). 
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Offline blur410

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2866 on: Fri, 07 May 2021, 04:07:02 »
Nice, I would like to help out with the PCB diagnosis seeing as I have a keyboard to test them out, only problem is my lack of technical experience, only real attempts at repairs I could do is just desoldering and resoldering components or replacing working parts on the pcb with other suspected working parts to frankenstein together working pcbs.
Keyboard Ownership History: Dynex(Rubber dome chicklet keys)-EXTINCT, Macbook Air 2016(Scissor switch)-ACTIVE, Razer Ornata(Mecha-membrane)-EXTINCT, Corsair K68 RGB(Cherry MX Reds)-RETIRED, Razer Tartarus Pro(Razer optical anaglog)-RETIRED, Idobao ID-75(NK Creams)-SHELF, HHKB Pro 3 Classic(Topre)-SHELF, New Model F62(Capacitive buckling springs)-ACTIVE, Realforce 23UB(Topre)-ACTIVE, BM60-RGBEC w/KBDFANS 5 Degree Case(NK BOX Pinks)-BUILDING, Focus 2001 (Alps Pine White)-SHELF

Mouse Ownership History: Microsoft Mouse(Ball)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Mouse(Optical)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Gaming Mouse(Laser)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Mini Retractable Mouse(Ball)-EXTINCT, Logitech M-570(Optical Trackball)-RETIREDX2, Razer Deathadder(Optical)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder Chroma(Optical)-EXTINCT, Corsair Scimitar(Laser)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder Elite(Optical)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder v2(Optical)-ACTIVE, DROK iWit(Alps mechanical encoder)-ACTIVE, CST/X-keys/PI L-Trac(Laser/Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE, Ploopy Classic(Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE, Marcus RB2(Mechanical Trackball)-SHELF, Microsoft Trackball Optical(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman Vista(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Microspeed PC-Trac(Optical? Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman FX(Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2867 on: Fri, 07 May 2021, 13:35:50 »
The next batch of key sets arrived!  The first UK key set is going out next week as part of Chyrosran22's order (photo below). 
(Attachment Link)


noice.

Offline zacheadams

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2868 on: Mon, 10 May 2021, 13:50:23 »
I should have ordered the full-size F62 eons ago instead of the ultracompact. Nonetheless, my upgraded F62 arrived over a month ago and I've been using it since.


Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2869 on: Mon, 10 May 2021, 16:27:45 »
Neato, my order just shipped. Now the question is whether I even like buckling springs at this point anymore, lmao.
I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2870 on: Tue, 11 May 2021, 12:46:07 »
Neato, my order just shipped. Now the question is whether I even like buckling springs at this point anymore, lmao.


Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2871 on: Tue, 11 May 2021, 14:05:53 »
Neato, my order just shipped. Now the question is whether I even like buckling springs at this point anymore, lmao.

Show Image

What can I say? I fell headfirst into the world of linear switches not long after joining this buy.
I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline atzemis13

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2872 on: Tue, 18 May 2021, 11:57:12 »
The next batch of key sets arrived!  The first UK key set is going out next week as part of Chyrosran22's order (photo below). 
(Attachment Link)

Have any pics of the dark gray or blue printed keys to share yet? Excited to see them.

Offline online

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2873 on: Tue, 18 May 2021, 17:38:36 »
I should have ordered the full-size F62 eons ago instead of the ultracompact. Nonetheless, my upgraded F62 arrived over a month ago and I've been using it since.


Like the new perspective. Sound test for the wife or husband who lives with a (keyboard) addict.

Offline SuperBo

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2874 on: Sat, 22 May 2021, 00:16:03 »
Can I still change shipping address?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2875 on: Sat, 22 May 2021, 14:57:12 »
Yes, please email me for any shipping address changes.

atzemis13 I hope to post some photos of these sets in the coming weeks.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2876 on: Sat, 29 May 2021, 18:16:13 »
Below are photos of the new Industrial SSK Blue and 60% Dark Gray key sublimated key sets installed on a new Model F keyboard.

The sublimation came out great for both of these colors. Please disregard the colors as they are not 100% accurate. In person the Industrial SSK blue is an exact match to the original IBM Industrial SSK Model M blue keys.

I especially like the combination of the black classic F77 case and the dark gray printed keys. 

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Offline dc_in_sf

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2877 on: Mon, 31 May 2021, 18:15:04 »
Below are photos of the new Industrial SSK Blue and 60% Dark Gray key sublimated key sets installed on a new Model F keyboard.

The sublimation came out great for both of these colors. Please disregard the colors as they are not 100% accurate. In person the Industrial SSK blue is an exact match to the original IBM Industrial SSK Model M blue keys.

I especially like the combination of the black classic F77 case and the dark gray printed keys. 

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

I'm tempted to pickup another F77 and get both the grey/blue keys sets to go for the Leopold  gray/blue look...

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2878 on: Mon, 31 May 2021, 21:02:49 »
Quote
Ellipse wrote: ↑May 26th, 2020, 11:31 pm
Inner foam update: the foam material I chose for the project was a far higher quality/durability type of foam than what IBM used. The foam has been known to last for many years and does not crumble with age like some of IBM's foam. The downside is that it is a little denser and therefore may make these keyboards ever so slightly less noisy. For the final round I am thinking about offering a more authentic foam that is very similar to the non-crumbly foam that IBM used in some of their Model F keyboards (the foam is so good that this 1980s foam still looks and performs well in these old keyboards today!). After a long search I finally believe I identified the right material. In the end I will probably offer the denser foam as a choice when getting extra foam in case people want an ever so slightly quieter Model F, but not as an installed option (would add too much complexity and probably not make a sound difference that most folks would notice).

As a follow up to my post, I wanted to share some photos showing that the new proposed foam is a match to the original type of foam used on some of the IBM Model F XT type keyboards. The original XT foam pictured is the non-crumbly variation of the foam, and it does show a compression set in the shape of the barrels.

Can you tell whether each of the three foams in the photo below is the new or original design?
The top foam is the original XT foam, and the middle and bottom foams are the new sample foam.

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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2879 on: Tue, 01 June 2021, 22:19:29 »
New video posted - it is amazing how many various machines and processes are required to produce such a (relatively?) complex keyboard as the Model F.

"As I continue to mail out all the Brand New Model F Keyboard orders, I wanted to share a brief video from the ribbon cable factory. I think this video shows the machine that is the last step for the cables (the one that cuts and strips the cable ends on each side of the ribbon cable to expose them for soldering to the PCBs). In this example video, the factory is producing samples of 30 position cables which would not belong in any production keyboards.  The final cables (if you opened up your keyboard case) have 15 positions and two cables are used for each controller, as IBM did with the original Model F keyboards. The ribbon cables are first made with the required 15 positions in very long sheets and are then cut to size."

« Last Edit: Tue, 01 June 2021, 22:21:51 by Ellipse »

Offline rknize

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2880 on: Wed, 02 June 2021, 10:27:02 »
How It's Made: Model F Keyboards
Russ

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2881 on: Wed, 02 June 2021, 13:49:11 »
Ladies and germs... after 4 years and 6 months, my model F has shipped.  What a day.   :thumb: :thumb:

Offline Kavik

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2882 on: Thu, 03 June 2021, 22:46:48 »
Ladies and germs... after 4 years and 6 months, my model F has shipped.  What a day.   :thumb: :thumb:

Ha, congrats! I'm waiting for the day I can report the same. I ordered a month before you - 4 years and 7 months ago -, so I should be getting close.  :p
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2883 on: Sat, 05 June 2021, 11:09:10 »
So, VIA works great if I use darkcruix's firmware and JSON files.  But... then the solenoid doesn't work.  I see that you've discovered why and updated your firmware in the manual section of the website to fix the issue.  However, when I load the new hex, I lose VIA functionality.  I'm loading the "Via program - load this if you have the F62" and it does update the design tab, but I get the "Searching for devices" screen in VIA.  I am running the latest version of VIA.

Also, the blue keycaps come later?  Didnt get ones I ordered and I cant remember whats been said. 
« Last Edit: Sat, 05 June 2021, 13:14:57 by pixelpusher »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2884 on: Sat, 05 June 2021, 14:01:54 »
Yes, everyone who ordered individual custom keys (blue, pebble, etc.) is still waiting on them as the factory only completed a small number of full key sets.  They expect to finish in the next month or so with the additional keys.

As another note, almost everyone who ordered caps and chose the separate shipping option is still waiting on keys as I am focused first on getting out some more keyboards in the next month or so and then I will focus on getting out the key sets.



Hmm, seemed to be detected in Via for me - I suggest starting fresh and re-following each step in order from the manual - firmware section:

Download the following parts into one folder:

*QMK Toolbox (https://github.com/qmk/qmk_toolbox/releases)
* VIA (https://github.com/the-via/releases/releases/tag/v1.3.1)
* Firmware for VIA (link in the manual)

Next steps:
* Unzip the Firmware and Via files
* Startup QMK Toolbox
* Load the Via Firmware (hex file) into the Toolbox flash the firmware labeled Via that you want to use as the starting point to customize your keyboard.  Each firmware file has a default layout as per the file name e.g. F77 ANSI with Print Screen etc. right side block.
* Press and hold left and right shift and the key B on your keyboard a yellow text appears in the QMK Toolbox to enter the bootloader
* click the button Clear EPROM
* click the button Flash, once the text appears that you can now flash the keyboard
* Once complete, close the QMK Toolbox

Next steps (also the steps you need to do in future, when you want to change the layout):
* Open the VIA application
* Click on Settings and enable Show Design tab
* Click on Design Tab
* drag and drop the JSON file called Via program load this if you have the F77 or Via program load this if you have the F62 into the square (do not load the individual F62_ANSI etc. type files only load the load this file into Via.  The other files wont work and it will look like the keyboard is not detected in Via software otherwise).
* Only now will your keyboard be detected.  Go to Configure, Layout, and select your keyboard layout

pandrews Model F QMK manual can be found here:  https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=480196#p480196

Current preprogrammed keypress commands in Via and QMK:

Hold down the keys Fn+Spacebar+
T>Toggle the Solenoid On/Off Any key HPT_TOG
+= Increase Solenoid dwell time HPT_DWLI
-_ Decrease Solenoid dwell time HPT_DWLD
E>EEPROM Reset (erases all settings like if you adjusted a dwell time for solenoid)
R>Reset (enter bootloader)
D>Debug

Command keys: hold Left Shift + Right Shift +
B>Enter Bootloader
N>Toggle N-Key Rollover (NKRO) (off by default to maximize compatibility)
Others: https://beta.docs.qmk.fm/using-qmk/advanced-keycodes/feature_command

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2885 on: Sat, 05 June 2021, 14:57:51 »
I've gone back a few times and step by step reloaded the firmware and json.  Still not working.  I'm going to run with the default setup for now because I love the sound of the solenoid :)

Hopefully someone else will have the same issue and figure it out some day  :thumb:


Offline MemeScreen

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2886 on: Mon, 07 June 2021, 00:46:37 »
Hold onto your buts everyone It Is Coming

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2887 on: Mon, 07 June 2021, 11:55:17 »
Regarding Chyrosran22's video that was just linked to above by MemeScreen, I especially liked the stop motion type animation with the keys and the synchronization of the animation of the keys with the music.  Very well done!

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2888 on: Tue, 08 June 2021, 18:50:23 »
Got a robust usb c male to female and swapped out the stock cable.  Its a nice quality of life upgrade for my use.


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Offline MemeScreen

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2889 on: Wed, 09 June 2021, 16:14:59 »
Regarding Chyrosran22's video that was just linked to above by MemeScreen, I especially liked the stop motion type animation with the keys and the synchronization of the animation of the keys with the music.  Very well done!

I was also a fan of the video. I just hope you dont get too big a headache from all the new orders after the video releases.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2890 on: Thu, 10 June 2021, 00:04:08 »
Recently I have been exchanging emails with someone who has followed the manual carefully and with permission I am posting some photos of their Model F setup to open up the inner assembly, as some flippers got stuck after the keyboard was bounced around in shipping (!).  The setup was so nice that I thought it would be worth sharing!  Certainly nicer and cleaner looking than my own setup!

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As a general note to everyone, please do follow the written manual for troubleshooting.  It will save you headaches trying to reinvent the wheel when the fastest path to getting things up and running has already been figured out and documented.  I've personally inspected over 1,000 new Model F keyboards and have documented the quickest ways to get things up and running, having learned many of these methods reading on the DT, GH, and r/MK forums over many years.

If anyone has any additional troubleshooting tips not found in the manual please do share here so that I can update the manual.

And if anything is not clear in the manual please do suggest what to change.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2891 on: Wed, 16 June 2021, 23:43:20 »
Based on some very strong recent feedback from a major keyboard reviewer, who is also a forum member here preparing a new Model F review, I have posted a draft video and am looking for feedback:

"Dead simple Model F Keyboard Layout Customization in 16 minutes: QMK and Via"

After viewing from start to finish, is this sufficient as an introductory video, with the encouragement to review the detailed QMK and Via manuals for further exploration?

I am greatly looking forward to the upcoming review video as I think it will be another great Model F keyboard review, maybe one of the best and most thorough! The amount of research and effort that goes into this reviewer's work is very comprehensive and it shows that a lot of research and care was put into each video. Kind of reminds me of the old very well done, deeply thorough tech reviews I would read when deciding on computer parts to build my next system. Even articles specifically discussing hardware LUT calibration on my computer monitor screens and how to optimize color accuracy, for example.

As a note the comments in the below video are not directed at any one person, and please do not bother or contact the reviewer as reviewers should be unbiased and independent without pressure to change anything they say.

I have been emailing back and forth a lot with the the reviewer in question, who replied to me that they figured things out as of now but that the firmware customization process was extremely difficult and that this would be reflected strongly in the commentary. I agree that no one should have as much of a negative experience with the Model F as this reviewer - it should never happen and if it does it should be at least mentioned.

However, I was completely surprised by this note. I haven't heard of complaints that people spent over an hour in frustration just trying to figure out how to update the layout in recent months, with the latest documentation. I think both QMK and Via are great and easy to work with in my opinion and am very grateful to pandrew and darkcruix for improving the xwhatsit Model F experience.

I am worried. My main concern is that people interested in the Model F will view the video and develop a false opinion on the difficulty of the firmware, which will make them not consider any Model F keyboard, original or new. Also not an insignificant note, based on my email conversations I'd say less than 10-15% of Model F users make even one layout change in the firmware (I believe many use Autohotkey or similar key remapping software instead for simple mappings, or the built in Apple remapping settings for command/option/etc.).

This new video I believe shows that the Model F firmware can be set up in minutes for most users and that it's easy to do and does not require opening up the keyboard.

I understand fully that a review ought to be based on the reviewer's subjective personal experience with the product as possibly one of the most important factors, but with something like a Model F keyboard which has been around for decades without the ability to reprogram layouts and the focus of this project being a hardware reproduction of Model F keyboards, I feel that the focus of any Model F review can include comments on personal experiences but ought to concentrate on how a typical user's experience would be going forward with the Model F hardware, not as much on the add-on firmware features that appeal to more of a power user customizing firmware (I'd consider any Model F firmware customizer as a power user). In my experience most people I've messaged with like the Model F for the typing experience, with the outstanding amount of programmability as a plus for some.

Admittedly as noted before, the documentation should have been fleshed out much earlier. I think the primary part of a keyboard review should be about the keyboard experience that 85-90% of Model F users have, which is just using the keyboard without firmware-level key remapping, though I understand that every feature should be easily accessible in any product.

Why scare people away from the Model F by skewering an experience that nearly no one has had or will ever encounter with respect to reprogramming firmware? I guess the question is if (a big if) the new video and the manuals are sufficient for 99.9% of those "power users" new to QMK and Via on the Model F, should the emphasis of any Model F review be on a typical user's experience who is yet to try out the xwhatsit controller on a Model F and will come across this new video in the manual before starting if they want to make some layout changes?

Please let me be clear: my intention is not to denigrate, intimidate or call for change with anyone in particular but to discuss what is the essential usefulness of a Model F to most people and how much of a review should focus exclusively on what's most important to most people. I would be saddened if thousands of people are turned away from the IBM and new Model F keyboards because of insufficient firmware documentation. I am hopeful that this new video might have changed the reviewer's experience had it been made earlier, and will help out everyone going forward.

Please do keep the comments respectful and considerate, and not directed at any one person or mentioning any names. My intention is only for a generalized discussion on keyboard reviews.


Offline mode

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2892 on: Thu, 17 June 2021, 01:13:49 »
I think QMK is popular enough and well known enough that chryos not liking the VIA gui, and not being a programmer isn't that big of a deal, it's also not surprising.

Being open source we can certainly improve it in response to any valid feedback, but I suspect the things he wants arn't what everyone else wants, and a significant fork which allows softwareless macro recording would be more up his street, idk, I guess we'll see when his review comes out.

« Last Edit: Thu, 17 June 2021, 01:27:56 by mode »

Offline darkcruix

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2893 on: Thu, 17 June 2021, 02:34:55 »
I think QMK is popular enough and well known enough that chryos not liking the VIA gui, and not being a programmer isn't that big of a deal, it's also not surprising.

Being open source we can certainly improve it in response to any valid feedback, but I suspect the things he wants arn't what everyone else wants, and a significant fork which allows softwareless macro recording would be more up his street, idk, I guess we'll see when his review comes out.

I am working on the more comprehensive documentation around VIA as soon as I find some moments outside of my day-job and family. As the keyboards are delivered using the VIA extension to QMK and can be adjusted accordingly using the VIA application, I think it is the best one to document for new starters. People shouldn't require to flash the firmware to make layout adjustments or add a macro.
For the more advanced users, I will have an in-depth doc in the technical manual around QMK itself at a later stage.

If the reviewer had issues with the firmware usage - that is fixable and should be fixed. That is what the keyboard community does. I have no idea, what the exact issues have been, but we'll address them.
I hope it won't turn away people initially - for me it is still the best keyboard I have ever owned and for many people it could be the same (No, I don't have any stakes in the brand new model f keyboard or have ANY financial interest as many of you know).

Offline blur410

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2894 on: Thu, 17 June 2021, 10:29:33 »
In my opinion, I simply dislike the way that the custom 'beta' for QMK is(or at least was) the only way to obtain the working files compatible with boards. I would agree with both a certain vintage techie and likely the upcoming review in that front. And this frustration was really the only blemish on an otherwise perfect QMK experience. I don't mind the re-flashing as much as some as it has been a staple of the custom market for years now. What I don't like is VIA. It is unnecessary software overhead using resources while not being worth the resources used. That and the interface is a bit garish. If it was adjusted in these aspects it may be slightly more convenient to use over basic QMK. QMK has a lot of cool custom features that are unavailable in VIA as well.

I made it clear in my review that it takes as long as a friend request send to accept in order to reprogram the board. Meanwhile all other software from other companies is available instantly and everything as far as details regarding the product is stamped on the back or even engraved into it. All the back of my F62 kishsaver says is the serial and model. While navigating the repository in the QMK beta it gives a full list of random slightly different board controllers. And the only way to tell what controller is inside the keyboard is to open it up. The controller should be shown with some random ID mark on the back sticker as I hinted in my review.

Regardless, the F62 is unparalleled in it's layout flexibility compared to any modern custom board as not only can any keycap be placed anywhere and maintain an ergonomic profile, new barrels and flippers can be either added or removed for 2U stabilized keys at most positions. It would be highly unwise for this feature to be undersold as "only 10% of power users would reprogram their board" while it is one of a very small number of keyboards capable of this level of customization. A selling point should be a selling point, why else would manufacturers spout off all kinds of claims, it could be any one of them in comparison that causes a potential customer to come to a decision. And in this same vein, the software used to program it should be just as accessible and capable as the hardware to allow the full capability of the feature to be realized.
Keyboard Ownership History: Dynex(Rubber dome chicklet keys)-EXTINCT, Macbook Air 2016(Scissor switch)-ACTIVE, Razer Ornata(Mecha-membrane)-EXTINCT, Corsair K68 RGB(Cherry MX Reds)-RETIRED, Razer Tartarus Pro(Razer optical anaglog)-RETIRED, Idobao ID-75(NK Creams)-SHELF, HHKB Pro 3 Classic(Topre)-SHELF, New Model F62(Capacitive buckling springs)-ACTIVE, Realforce 23UB(Topre)-ACTIVE, BM60-RGBEC w/KBDFANS 5 Degree Case(NK BOX Pinks)-BUILDING, Focus 2001 (Alps Pine White)-SHELF

Mouse Ownership History: Microsoft Mouse(Ball)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Mouse(Optical)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Gaming Mouse(Laser)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Mini Retractable Mouse(Ball)-EXTINCT, Logitech M-570(Optical Trackball)-RETIREDX2, Razer Deathadder(Optical)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder Chroma(Optical)-EXTINCT, Corsair Scimitar(Laser)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder Elite(Optical)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder v2(Optical)-ACTIVE, DROK iWit(Alps mechanical encoder)-ACTIVE, CST/X-keys/PI L-Trac(Laser/Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE, Ploopy Classic(Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE, Marcus RB2(Mechanical Trackball)-SHELF, Microsoft Trackball Optical(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman Vista(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Microspeed PC-Trac(Optical? Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman FX(Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE

Offline mode

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2895 on: Thu, 17 June 2021, 11:33:57 »
What I don't like is VIA. It is unnecessary software overhead using resources while not being worth the resources used.

Not sure what you're getting at, you don't have to use VIA if you don't want to, nor does it have to be open all the time if you do use it. A lot of users really like VIA, it's definitely appreciated by a great number of people.

Offline euphxenos

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2896 on: Thu, 17 June 2021, 15:14:44 »
I don't know how hard it is to use QMK or VIA to customize my model F.  I ordered mine from Ellipse a little over four years ago, and still haven't received it.  Four years ago, using VIA or QMK on these wasn't even a planned option.  So really, what you have to consider if you're thinking about ordering a model f today from Ellipse today is not "how hard is it to customize the layout today?" but "how much easier might it be a few years from now when I actually receive my keyboard?"  Who knows -- the experience to change the layout might be completely different in 2025/2026.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2897 on: Thu, 17 June 2021, 22:52:59 »
Small update:  XT foam now available to order

Thanks for everyone's feedback so far.  I will reply to a few points below but I wanted to update the thread to note that I have ordered a stamping tool for the IBM XT foam as quite a number of folks were asking for it.

As a note the priority is very low for the XT foam and I will only be focusing on mailing out everyone's non-XT orders over the coming months, so please expect these to go out around year end and not earlier if you are interested.

This will be another group buy style order like with the beam spring and displaywriter beam spring controllers, where I will tally up the orders and send them to the factory when the tooling is complete (expected in several months from now).  For the group buy orders I have subtracted $10 from the price; I will order some extras to sell for maybe $10 to $20 more for those who are late to the group buy, to help very slightly ameliorate the project cost overruns including all the DHL Express mailing of the key sets a month or so ago.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-inner-foam-f62-f77-f62-split-shift-f77-split-shift-f107-f122/

I would also like to note that a Model F user pointed out to me that the QMK toolbox reportedly had malware and was not fully open source so out of an abundance of caution I have updated the manual to use Atmel Flip's free software in its place (it is not open source either though). 

My thoughts on the discussion so far - please do keep the feedback going!

blur410 As a note we are now in the public beta phase, so by reviewing the video and following the links in the description there are no additional requests needed to be made as was the case earlier.  I agree that part of the issue is the learning curve associated with QMK and Via, and the other (maybe more important part) is the special workarounds required for the Model F as we wait for the firmware project coordinators to accept the Model F code into the main branch of their project. Once that happens some of these extra steps can be shortened or eliminated.  Currently they have not accepted any Model F related submissions but I'm trying to figure out a way to get in touch with the project coordinators - have just posted on their Discord server.

Regarding customizability I do agree that it is a big feature, but I would differentiate between the ability to flash preprogrammed layouts in my big Zip file with minimal effort and the ability to customize your own layouts.  There are many custom layouts available as you mentioned but in my experience chatting with folks, it's probably more common to flash a premade firmware when making a change on your keyboard than it is to program it yourself.  So many folks I've talked to over the years just want a Model F and a normal layout they can use without complications which is how I got to my estimations.

euphxenos again my apologies to you and everyone still patiently waiting for their new Model F to arrive.  I expect to continue sending out keyboards over the coming months and hopefully catch up fully around year end, not in years from now.  So far I've personally tested and mailed out more than 1,200 keyboards and now that the first batch of keys has arrived I have been able to go as quickly as possible to send these out, though I still spend 20-30 minutes preparing each order. 

For anyone who has not been following the threads lately and is wondering how the project could have been delayed I have posted in thorough detail on the project web site blog the reasons behind the delays and the current progress towards finishing up this project.




« Last Edit: Thu, 17 June 2021, 22:55:23 by Ellipse »

Offline blur410

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2898 on: Fri, 18 June 2021, 07:03:27 »
Fair points and I do agree with the adjustments and effort put into the software side. I do appreciate a video for new owners too.

One of the reasons why the software side and QMK attracts attention is that this Model F repro isn't happening in the year 1991 where mechanisms and build quality were the only reasonable talking points for reviewers. Competing products exist with other fetching features and some people are spoiled by the modern comforts afforded by customs and drawing comparisons. One of the biggest reasons to go custom and spend over 200 dollars on a keyboard is customization.

What is the whole situation surrounding QMK at the moment? I have an AUG 2020 distro in my computer that I only use for flashing firmware. Is that a supposed virus or what? I had not heard of any of this until Ellipse mentioned it.

Keyboard Ownership History: Dynex(Rubber dome chicklet keys)-EXTINCT, Macbook Air 2016(Scissor switch)-ACTIVE, Razer Ornata(Mecha-membrane)-EXTINCT, Corsair K68 RGB(Cherry MX Reds)-RETIRED, Razer Tartarus Pro(Razer optical anaglog)-RETIRED, Idobao ID-75(NK Creams)-SHELF, HHKB Pro 3 Classic(Topre)-SHELF, New Model F62(Capacitive buckling springs)-ACTIVE, Realforce 23UB(Topre)-ACTIVE, BM60-RGBEC w/KBDFANS 5 Degree Case(NK BOX Pinks)-BUILDING, Focus 2001 (Alps Pine White)-SHELF

Mouse Ownership History: Microsoft Mouse(Ball)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Mouse(Optical)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Gaming Mouse(Laser)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Mini Retractable Mouse(Ball)-EXTINCT, Logitech M-570(Optical Trackball)-RETIREDX2, Razer Deathadder(Optical)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder Chroma(Optical)-EXTINCT, Corsair Scimitar(Laser)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder Elite(Optical)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder v2(Optical)-ACTIVE, DROK iWit(Alps mechanical encoder)-ACTIVE, CST/X-keys/PI L-Trac(Laser/Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE, Ploopy Classic(Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE, Marcus RB2(Mechanical Trackball)-SHELF, Microsoft Trackball Optical(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman Vista(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Microspeed PC-Trac(Optical? Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman FX(Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE

Online LightningXI

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2899 on: Fri, 18 June 2021, 09:22:13 »
I've never heard of malware on qmk nor had any issues with it. First time I hear such a claim, too.