[GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F

[Atredl]

I love reading stats

[Kavik]

Ellipse,

Does the HHKB split right shift with fn key require a different PCB and barrel plate? I ordered the standard ANSI layout F77 and an extra set of black blank keys with additional printed pebble HHKB 6 key set. It's been a while since I ordered, so I'm not entirely sure what my intention was, but I think I was under the impression that I could switch between the default ANSI and HHKB split right shift layouts with a simple key swap. If that's not the case, I think I need to modify my order a bit.

[Ellipse]

You can switch between the two on one pcb.  The difference is when switching to hhkb when you have the standard pcb for ansi/iso, the 1U key and 1.75U key in the right shift area are switched compared to the hhkb pcb, so you get 1U on the left side of the right shift area and 1.75U on the right side.

[joey]

Ellipse: Any chance you can confirm in a PM what board I'm getting? Just want to make sure what I think I'm getting is what you think I'm getting!

[axtran]

Could you confirm my order via PM as well? That compact case is so, so beautiful!

[a_ak57]

dotcom I suggest the standard HHKB style mapping for the F62, which will be the expected default configuration (you can change this yourself using the xwhatsit GUI).  http://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/doc/hhkbp2_basic_layout.png

Just to clarify, will these actually be shipping with the HHKB arrows and such mapped on the function layer or just the F-key row?


Also regarding the order stats, interesting to see that the industrial gray is considerably more prominent with the F77 and same with beige with the F62.  Is that a historical accuracy thing and those were the more common colors for each?

[Kavik]

You can switch between the two on one pcb.  The difference is when switching to hhkb when you have the standard pcb for ansi/iso, the 1U key and 1.75U key in the right shift area are switched compared to the hhkb pcb, so you get 1U on the left side of the right shift area and 1.75U on the right side.

Ok, that makes sense, especially after looking at the barrel positions on a Model M. I think I'll keep my order how it is since I'll probably want the default layout, but the extra caps will give me the flexibility of adding another key if I want to try it albeit in a transposed position. Thank you for the response!

Also, thank you for the blog post update and updated order numbers. Very interesting read.

[Ellipse]

joey and axtran - I sent you your order emails noting what you are getting.

ak57 there will be no secondary legends on the key sides but yes arrows and such will all be mapped in the firmware by default (you can change this in the configuration software).  I believe seeing the F77 case in Industrial Gray on the web site photos and the F62 in Beige encouraged those choices more than others.

[str8away]

You can switch between the two on one pcb.  The difference is when switching to hhkb when you have the standard pcb for ansi/iso, the 1U key and 1.75U key in the right shift area are switched compared to the hhkb pcb, so you get 1U on the left side of the right shift area and 1.75U on the right side.

Can you switch between the two with the hhkb style pcb?

[Ellipse]

Yes you can have the HHKB or ANSI arrangement on the hhkb style PCB as well.  If interested please select HHKB at checkout and then send me a note for "HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter"

[str8away]

Yes you can have the HHKB or ANSI arrangement on the hhkb style PCB as well.  If interested please select HHKB at checkout and then send me a note for "HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter"

So is there a different 2.75 right shift for the hhkb pcb? Won't the regular shift's stems/posts be in the wrong place or am I overthinking this?

[Ellipse]

Same key but the right shift's two pads are in slightly different places on the standard vs. HHKB PCB.  The standard PCB allows for 1U, 1.75U or 2.75U in the right shift, while the HHKB pcb allows only 1.75U, 1U in that location.

[str8away]

Same key but the right shift's two pads are in slightly different places on the standard vs. HHKB PCB.  The standard PCB allows for 1U, 1.75U or 2.75U in the right shift, while the HHKB pcb allows only 1.75U, 1U in that location.

Yep ok that's what I thought.

So you can only use the 2.75U right shift on the regular pcb. With the HHKB pcb you're stuck with the 1.75U and 1U layout.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Ellipse]

Yep - an alternative is to order an extra regular PCB/top inner assembly/inner foam so that you can switch between HHKB style split and regular split.  A couple people are doing this.

[Ellipse]

Would anyone be interested in writing a generic Model F manual?  For both the original keyboards as well as the reproductions.  It would help buckling spring owners with a central place to learn key re-seating, disassembly, spring replacement, changing the layout, etc.?

I was thinking it could be written in the old formatting/layout like the manuals of the 80s/90s, maybe with some old-style illustrations/line art/product photos?

[str8away]

Yep - an alternative is to order an extra regular PCB/top inner assembly/inner foam so that you can switch between HHKB style split and regular split.  A couple people are doing this.

Hmmm interesting how much is that?

[Ellipse]

$119 total I believe.

[ApocalypseMaow]

Yep - an alternative is to order an extra regular PCB/top inner assembly/inner foam so that you can switch between HHKB style split and regular split.  A couple people are doing this.

Hmmm interesting how much is that?

This is what I went with, well worth the money seeing as you may not be able to find one in the future.

[Kavik]

Yep - an alternative is to order an extra regular PCB/top inner assembly/inner foam so that you can switch between HHKB style split and regular split.  A couple people are doing this.

Hmmm interesting how much is that?

This is what I went with, well worth the money seeing as you may not be able to find one in the future.

It's this kind of thinking that's caused me to spend $602 on this GB already  . I don't know if I can bear anymore at the moment. If I need anything else, I think I'll wait until the second round to order it once I've had time to play with it and decide.

[axtran]

Thanks so much for the order update, Ellipse! Is there any way to convert my order to black on black compact case with all black caps? Should I PM you instead?

[NathanA]

Yes you can have the HHKB or ANSI arrangement on the hhkb style PCB as well.  If interested please select HHKB at checkout and then send me a note for "HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter"

Wait, now I'm confused.  Isn't this arrangement (HHKB split right shift, everything else ANSI Enter) exactly what is intended by the "HHKB split right shift and regular 2U-wide Backspace" option on the order form?  At least that's what I thought I was getting when I picked that option.  Why would someone need to send you a note for this arrangement?

-- Nathan

[Mr_BeastQuake]

Yes you can have the HHKB or ANSI arrangement on the hhkb style PCB as well.  If interested please select HHKB at checkout and then send me a note for "HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter"

Wait, now I'm confused.  Isn't this arrangement (HHKB split right shift, everything else ANSI Enter) exactly what is intended by the "HHKB split right shift and regular 2U-wide Backspace" option on the order form?  At least that's what I thought I was getting when I picked that option.  Why would someone need to send you a note for this arrangement?

-- Nathan

In a similar vein, I was hoping for a layout similar to my Black Bird for the split right shift, split backspace, ANSI enter. Shown here: http://imgur.com/a/Q79Ij

This is achieved by just selecting split right shift and split backspace. Maintaining an ANSI enter right?

[NathanA]

Yes you can have the HHKB or ANSI arrangement on the hhkb style PCB as well.  If interested please select HHKB at checkout and then send me a note for "HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter"

Wait, now I'm confused.  Isn't this arrangement (HHKB split right shift, everything else ANSI Enter) exactly what is intended by the "HHKB split right shift and regular 2U-wide Backspace" option on the order form?  At least that's what I thought I was getting when I picked that option.  Why would someone need to send you a note for this arrangement?

-- Nathan

Okay never mind; just saw your (Ellipse's) response on the other forum to somebody asking essentially the same question.

So difference just comes down to placement of left Ctrl and CapsLock?  When ordering "HHKB split shift + 2U Backspace" with a full non-blank keyset (which I assume puts Ctrl where CL normally goes on ANSI layout and vice-versa), you also ship the regular ANSI keys anyway right?

I'll probably end up using "everything else ANSI" layout, but if the other keys are included anyway then no sense in having you waste time changing my order, presuming the controller is easy enough to reprogram (never used this particular controller, but the impression I get is that it's not that hard to change/re-map stuff).

-- Nathan

[Ellipse]

Yes the controllers are easy to program with xwhatsit's GUI and everyone who orders HHKB style gets the original style keys as well so they can switch Ctrl and Shift, etc.

Yes I think that would be the options to pick for a similar layout Mr_BeastQuake

Yes axtran feel free to PM me for changes. 

[Ellipse]

Regarding the request to write a Model F generic manual (including repairs, setup, xwhatsit adjustments) in the old style design and formatting, I also like the style of the Keytronic 3270 compatible keyboard manuals (below).

Does anyone want to change their F77 case color to Black, Silver Gray, or True Red?  I would appreciate it!  Both the Industrial Gray and Off-White/Beige F77 options have proven far more popular than I had expected and we are running low on stock.

We are also running very low on Ultra Compact Keyboards and might run out in a month or two for the early bird round - if you wanted a compact keyboard in the early bird round please reserve one soon!


Below I am reposting links to some Model F manuals posted by segacontroller on DT:
A quick search yielded this from the XT.

http://www.retroarchive.org/dos/docs/ibm5160techref.pdf

Keyboard starts on 1-65 (PDF page 78). Not too robust, but I think this would be the style of the original manual?

**

Here is the technical reference guide for the IB 5155 which has much more information.

http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/manuals/IBM_5155_5160_Technical_Reference_6280089_MAR86.pdf

Key Board section is section 4, and starts on PDF page 97.

**

Also found this product picture from the model M. Would this be the style you are looking for?
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-MmCpjSMMNFU/UcsAAcS8d-I/AAAAAAAAADE/O7TXRePBKjk/w2048-h1215/1986_modelm_promo.jpg

[Kavik]

I may be interested in helping out with the manual. I write up detailed recreation steps for testing software bugs often at work, and I had a strong language background in the past (writing papers for various classes as well as studying German and French in college and high school). My attention to detail and affinity for precise grammar would be useful, I think. The problem is I've never dealt with the xwhatsit controller or GUI, so my subject matter knowledge is lacking.

Regarding the colors, I think I am set on industrial gray, but do you have a side-by-side comparison of the silver gray and industrial gray? I can't quite picture the difference. Also, do you have any photos of a fully assembled true red or orange keyboard? Seeing the other examples might sway me from industrial gray.

[Elrick]

Regarding the colors, I think I am set on industrial gray, but do you have a side-by-side comparison of the silver gray and industrial gray? I can't quite picture the difference. Also, do you have any photos of a fully assembled true red or orange keyboard? Seeing the other examples might sway me from industrial gray.

I paid for an Industrial Gray model simply because it is darker, compared to Silver Gray.

Plus Industrial Gray is the first ever model colour used along with IBM Beige, for these type of keyboards.  If you want old time precision always go full Retro, that way strangers may think you actually own an original Model-F keyboard built years ago  .

[Kavik]

Regarding the colors, I think I am set on industrial gray, but do you have a side-by-side comparison of the silver gray and industrial gray? I can't quite picture the difference. Also, do you have any photos of a fully assembled true red or orange keyboard? Seeing the other examples might sway me from industrial gray.

I paid for an Industrial Gray model simply because it is darker, compared to Silver Gray.

Plus Industrial Gray is the first ever model colour used along with IBM Beige, for these type of keyboards.  If you want old time precision always go full Retro, that way strangers may think you actually own an original Model-F keyboard built years ago  .

Ha, that was actually my line of thinking also. I like the industrial gray because it looks original, and it is, afterall, a reproduction.

[NathanA]

The "reproduction" aspect is definitely strong, and if I were interested in a gray case I think it would prove very tempting to choose the Industrial variety for that reason, but my own OCD personality type would likely be more concerned about how closely the gray key caps match with the gray casing.  Is Silver Gray closer to the gray key caps, or is Industrial Gray?  I ask merely to satisfy my own curiosity, though others who do want a gray case may find the answer to this question informative as well.

-- Nathan

[tron]

The "reproduction" aspect is definitely strong, and if I were interested in a gray case I think it would prove very tempting to choose the Industrial variety for that reason, but my own OCD personality type would likely be more concerned about how closely the gray key caps match with the gray casing.  Is Silver Gray closer to the gray key caps, or is Industrial Gray?  I ask merely to satisfy my own curiosity, though others who do want a gray case may find the answer to this question informative as well.

-- Nathan

I couldn't decide so in addition to my ultra modern black on black, I ordered the original style F62 in silver gray and added off white beige and industrial grey cases as a side order. I may sell the extras after viewing them on my desk, although an extra original style case a great deal considering the build quality and finish.

[Ellipse]

Great Kavik!

All Model F experts please contribute to the Model F Owner's Manual now up on www.modelfkeyboards.com/wiki

It is aimed at helping both the original keyboards as well as the reproductions.

It will help provide buckling spring owners (everyone from beginners to advanced users) with a central place to learn key re-seating, disassembly, spring replacement, changing the layout, etc.


Kavik here are examples of the colors side by side (these are subject to change due to slight factory variations).  I also show below two photos comparing the original IBM to the reproduction colors to show how close they are.  Please note though that the photos are not 100% accurate in terms of color.

[Ellipse]

PBT Key tests from the factory:

The factory expects to spend two more weeks perfecting the injection molds for the keys, as well as mixing the PBT plastic to get the perfect colors for pearl, pebble, and Industrial SSK blue.  The flash (excess plastic) has not been removed from these test keys.

The key texture has not yet been applied to the top of the key molds so they appear shiny/unfinished in these photos.  As always the colors of these photos are not accurate.

Industrial SSK blue full 103 key sets (with and without legends) are available to order if anyone wants them.

Once I approve the keys, production can start on the keys.

[pixelpusher]

PBT Key tests from the factory:

The factory expects to spend two more weeks perfecting the injection molds for the keys, as well as mixing the PBT plastic to get the perfect colors for pearl, pebble, and Industrial SSK blue.  The flash (excess plastic) has not been removed from these test keys.

The key texture has not yet been applied to the top of the key molds so they appear shiny/unfinished in these photos.  As always the colors of these photos are not accurate.

Industrial SSK blue full 103 key sets (with and without legends) are available to order if anyone wants them.

Once I approve the keys, production can start on the keys.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

Nice! Was going to pick up a set of blue keycaps but I'm not seeing the option for blue on the website

[PancakeMSTR]

Wait so if we ordered a model F with keycaps are the caps gonna be PBT or ABS?

[Elrick]

Wait so if we ordered a model F with keycaps are the caps gonna be PBT or ABS?

It will ALWAYS be PBT because when building to IBM specs, it's the ONLY material used for all key-caps  .

[axtran]

Ellipse,

PM'd you some order adjustments (color).

[PancakeMSTR]

Wait so if we ordered a model F with keycaps are the caps gonna be PBT or ABS?

It will ALWAYS be PBT because when building to IBM specs, it's the ONLY material used for all key-caps  .

ummm k. So model M keycaps are PBT? They really seem like ABS. Does acetone solve PBT?

[NathanA]

ummm k. So model M keycaps are PBT? They really seem like ABS.

They've always been PBT, they currently are PBT (Unicomp), and as long as they continue to be manufactured, always will be PBT.

Have you ever seen a Model F or M with yellowed keycaps? (Rhetorical question.  Answer: no.)

-- Nathan

[PancakeMSTR]

ummm k. So model M keycaps are PBT? They really seem like ABS.

They've always been PBT, they currently are PBT (Unicomp), and as long as they continue to be manufactured, always will be PBT.

Have you ever seen a Model F or M with yellowed keycaps? (Rhetorical question.  Answer: no.)

-- Nathan

Huh. Didn't realize they were PBT. Always felt so ABS-y to me.

[Ellipse]

reececonrad you can just order a standard spare set and make a note that you would like the Industrial SSK blue set.

Yes the keys are all PBT.

[All About Jake]

Really excited about the PBT Keycaps!

I don't suppose there has been any change in the ability to do some Apple Modifiers?  I know that the apple folks were in the minority so it was out of scope.

Just asking. because the project has grown and I figured it didn't hurt to ask. 

[Ellipse]

Yes All About Jake you can still order Apple modifiers through www.modelfkeyboards.com/shop

We are a few orders away from the big quarter million dollar mark!

[Ellipse]

We are three keyboards away from the big quarter million dollar order mark!

As we wait for final tooling at the factory before production finishes up, all the completed parts are waiting in their boxes, ready to be assembled in the coming months - reposting some photos here:

[euphxenos]

Having made the molds to produce your own keycaps, are you considering making additional keycap sets that aren't reproductions of IBM colorways (Dolch, for example)?  There's not much out there for buckling spring keyboards.  If your keycaps will work on existing model M's, I suspect there would be a lot of interest.

[Elrick]

Having made the molds to produce your own keycaps, are you considering making additional keycap sets that aren't reproductions of IBM colorways (Dolch, for example)?  There's not much out there for buckling spring keyboards.  If your keycaps will work on existing model M's, I suspect there would be a lot of interest.

Dolch uses white legends on a dark grey background IMPOSSIBLE to do with PBT dye-sub.  If you want the white legends then you will have to put up with pad printing which is ALWAYS inferior to real PBT dye-sub.

What Ellipse is doing is the resurrection of the original Model-F series here, so he is sticking with what IBM has used all those years ago when decent engineering was paramount in the manufacture of this device.

I don't personally mind having one or two colours for the buckling spring key switches simply because it's what works and is easily recognized.  If you want Dolch best go with the standard Cherry based switches and be content with what's on offer in that very shallow pool of indifference  .

[euphxenos]

Having made the molds to produce your own keycaps, are you considering making additional keycap sets that aren't reproductions of IBM colorways (Dolch, for example)?  There's not much out there for buckling spring keyboards.  If your keycaps will work on existing model M's, I suspect there would be a lot of interest.

Dolch uses white legends on a dark grey background IMPOSSIBLE to do with PBT dye-sub.  If you want the white legends then you will have to put up with pad printing which is ALWAYS inferior to real PBT dye-sub.

What Ellipse is doing is the resurrection of the original Model-F series here, so he is sticking with what IBM has used all those years ago when decent engineering was paramount in the manufacture of this device.

I don't personally mind having one or two colours for the buckling spring key switches simply because it's what works and is easily recognized.  If you want Dolch best go with the standard Cherry based switches and be content with what's on offer in that very shallow pool of indifference  .

Good point about dye-sub and Dolch; that was a bad example.  I'm not sure why you're so hostile to the notion of other colorways, though.  "shallow pool of indifference" would also be a good description of Unicomp's keycap offerings.  Given what the keycap market is like for mx-based boards and the large set of existing buckling spring keyboards out there, that seems like an opportunity that someone else will eventually capitalize on.  Why not Ellipse?

I've had a model M on my desk at home and at work (SSKs, mostly) for the past 10-15 years.  I've only recently started looking at what else was out there out of curiosity as to whether I'd benefit from going smaller than an SSK.  I can't say I care much for any of the modern keyswitches I've tried so far, but I do envy them their keycap choices and the 65% layout.

[NathanA]

If you want the white legends then you will have to put up with pad printing which is ALWAYS inferior to real PBT dye-sub.

Agreed that pad printing is teh suck, but couldn't you come up with some quality white-on-black keycaps using double-shot injection molds?

I'd kill for some Model F/M double-shot white-on-black PBT caps personally.  It might be difficult (though not impossible) to construct such a beast in the single-piece style, but surely it would be possible to manufacture the top part of the two-piece variant with double-shot injection (it'd maybe be slightly thicker than a normal cap though).

-- Nathan

[Atredl]

...I'm not sure why you're so hostile to the notion of other colorways, though.  "shallow pool of indifference"...

I see you're new here. Meet Elrick. He know's his stuff but also try not to take him so seriously.

[PancakeMSTR]

What Ellipse is doing is the resurrection of the original Model-F series here

Yes I think we're aware of that at this point.

Seriously though. Ellipse, get into the custom Model M cap game. You would make a killing.

And **** it, make em out of ABS so you have more color options. Do they really NEED to be PBT? Like will an ABS version break?

[Pete]

I hope all the completed parts are insured in case of fire or volcano or something!