Author Topic: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards  (Read 643561 times)

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Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2350 on: Wed, 18 March 2020, 10:18:23 »
Interesting, to be sure. That shouldn't effect weighting though, should it? I'll pry an original cap off of an F maybe tonight and play with it. I was already tempted to do so. You may have just sold another set of the new production caps. These are all still manufactured by Unicomp though, aren't they? Is it to a modified specification?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2351 on: Wed, 18 March 2020, 10:30:01 »
The keys for this project are from my brand new molds.  The new keys are all one piece, like many Model F keys, while most Model M keys are two piece.

The smoothness of new barrels contributes to a smoother and lighter feeling while typing.  I have found that swabbing 99% rubbing alcohol with a Q tip around the barrels of an original Model F improves their perceived lightness and smoothness as well.  Also the age of the original springs definitely changes their feel, weighting, and sound.  In a few decades the new Model F springs will certainly be different in those three aspects.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2352 on: Wed, 18 March 2020, 11:42:21 »
Added friction does make sense, but you would think that the springs would weaken with age, which would counteract that, if anything. It isn't a major thing regardless. Recreating flippers and barrels exactly is one thing, a spring is something else. I imagine the exact specs were not available, and I also imagine that even just using a slightly different alloy of steel would result in a different weight with everything else made exactly to original specifications.

I suppose I shouldn't have bothered to order the unprinted red modifier keys from Unicomp in anticipation of my black F77. Oh well, they'll find a home on some Model M at some point. Are there any particular new production caps that can ship now if I ordered some? Unprinted works for me, maybe the original pebble and pearl scheme, or a set of SSK blue?

Offline Twsts

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2353 on: Wed, 18 March 2020, 12:07:37 »
Defently interesting looking at characteristics of the different buckling spring caps.
On my AT for example, the Unicomp one piece caps actuate near the very top, giving the keyboard a little stiffer feel. While the original Model F caps feels somewhat smoother and actuate near the bottom. The two piece model M keycaps feels somewhat inbetween.
My XT has a keyfeel that is even crispier, but I haven't tried the different caps on it.

Will be sure to give it a comparison when my new model Fs arrives.  :)

Offline consolation

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2354 on: Thu, 19 March 2020, 07:17:39 »
Added friction does make sense, but you would think that the springs would weaken with age, which would counteract that, if anything...

Not necessarily, many alloys work harden, becoming more brittle (relatively speaking.) This would make for a stiffer spring.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2355 on: Thu, 19 March 2020, 08:09:34 »
Added friction does make sense, but you would think that the springs would weaken with age, which would counteract that, if anything...

Not necessarily, many alloys work harden, becoming more brittle (relatively speaking.) This would make for a stiffer spring.

That makes sense, but don't springs also loose their elasticity as they're used? I know in handguns you'll usually start seeing frames and slides start beating each other up because the recoil spring gets to a point where it is no longer sufficiently powerful to dampen recoil.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2356 on: Thu, 19 March 2020, 09:26:53 »
Dark gray unprinted extra sets can ship now.  Will get more stock on the other key sets in the coming months.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2357 on: Thu, 19 March 2020, 14:52:12 »
Dye sub testing update:

I think we are finally on par with a 50th to 90th percentile IBM XT for dye sublimation quality! This was the original goal of the new dye sublimation.

Color and bleed/sharpness are close to my reference IBM XT keyboard (original key from that keyboard is on the left; the right side key is the latest test). Looks great under the stereo microscope too. (As a reminder please disregard the legend positioning. The full sublimation transfer sheets have pin registration with the jig for proper placement)

238103-0

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2358 on: Thu, 19 March 2020, 17:16:01 »
Dye sub testing update:

I think we are finally on par with a 50th to 90th percentile IBM XT for dye sublimation quality! This was the original goal of the new dye sublimation.

Color and bleed/sharpness are close to my reference IBM XT keyboard (original key from that keyboard is on the left; the right side key is the latest test). Looks great under the stereo microscope too. (As a reminder please disregard the legend positioning. The full sublimation transfer sheets have pin registration with the jig for proper placement)

Looking great. It obviously takes a real passion, perhaps obsession, for these old boards to accomplish everything that you have done. Congratulations.

Online LightningXI

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2359 on: Wed, 25 March 2020, 15:25:45 »
Though a bit unfortunate that my box arrived damaged, though without harm otherwise (expand More below - Ellipse, if you see this, it may be notable for future shipments!), at long last my F62 is here :thumb:

Thank you to Ellipse for the hard work in recreating this beauty.


More













Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2360 on: Wed, 25 March 2020, 22:10:16 »
Thanks for posting your Kishsaver setup LightningXI.  My apologies the box was damaged in shipping!  If you (or anyone else) needs another box please let me know and I can send it with the next shipment (please PM or email me and we can arrange it).

As an update, over on DT thanks to DT user pandrew, an xwhatsit Model F firmware update has been released for a bug pointed out by webwit regarding the behavior of the function layers.  I'd like to encourage everyone to "beta test" the firmware on their new/old Model F keyboards and share their findings so it can be the default for all future Model F's that go out.

Also over on DT, consolation posted some interesting technical findings with the new F77. 

If anyone has any Model F tips and tricks please do share them!

My notes regarding the xwhatsit software:
For my setup (tested on a Lenovo laptop from several years ago), the F77 wouldn't activate all keys unless the threshold was a maximum of 122 or so, but this definitely varies by USB port and computer I am sure. 

Those always pressed points on the matrix are built in to the keyboard capacitive PCB.  IBM had them built into original Model F keyboards as well.  My guess is they were used for calibration of the key press threshold.  The xwhatsit software says these always-pressed keys should be noted as "pressed" in the layout file which is what I did in the layout files for each keyboard that has gone out.  That is interesting that you had to set them to ignored to prevent random key presses.  Can anyone else confirm this behavior with their Model F keyboard (new or old)?  Agreed that waiting for the keyboard to go to room temperature is sometimes needed before starting to use the keyboard.

https://imgur.com/0IR9Uao
https://imgur.com/rHYQq1e

As a note here is the link to the previously posted photo album of all mailed keyboard variations that is updated whenever there is a new variation.  https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0

Offline h

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2361 on: Fri, 27 March 2020, 15:00:03 »
I'm unable to find any communities to post this to but here, but I was wondering if there was a way to emulate some QMK functions:

LAlt_T (Left alt when Held, KC when Tapped)
LT (KC on tap, switch to layer when held)

Thanks in advance,

h

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2362 on: Sat, 28 March 2020, 10:57:20 »
h, I believe that there is some beta testing of QMK or TMK over on DT - feel free to post your interest there and they might send you the beta firmware file if you are interested.  Of course fair warning that you can possibly brick your hardware by flashing beta firmware (I've never had that issue though).

Offline Lu_e

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2363 on: Sat, 04 April 2020, 15:52:30 »
So if you have the parts, you can change your layout at any point? Like back and forth between a HHKB layout and a standard layout? Because I was racking my brain trying to pick a layout I can live with for the rest of time. The barrels are removable?
MX

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2364 on: Sun, 05 April 2020, 10:53:05 »
Lu_e the barrels are removable and you can split all of the 2U and larger keys (left/right shift, space bar, backspace, enter).  Because of the different positioning of the barrels and PCB pads of the HHKB style split right shift (1.75U + 1U) and the regular right shift (1U+1.75U or 2.75U) you can't switch from HHKB split right shift to regular right shift.  On all keyboards you can switch between ANSI Enter and ISO Enter.  Because all the additional needed parts to switch the shifts cost over $100 total, I suggest considering two full keyboards rather than the parts needed to switch one keyboard from HHKB to ANSI shift.  ANSI is more popular for the F77 and hhkb split is more popular for F62.  You may find you prefer one or the other after using your new Model F for a few weeks and you can always keep just the one you prefer if you don't want both.  Some people are also ordering an extra keyboard with a case in a different color to switch things up in the future so in that case (!) it may make sense to get a full spare keyboard rather than just the case.

For those beta testing the QMK Model F firmware, are there currently any downsides compared to the xwhatsit in terms of performance, ease of use, etc.?

hypx has made the first video with a solenoid connected to a Brand New Model F Keyboard!  It is over on the DT project thread.  https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=462403#p462403

Someone had an issue with an entire row or column of keys and I wanted to share a recommended troubleshooting procedure here as well. 

If a key or row of keys doesn't work, I recommend opening up the keyboard and testing the keys by pressing a flipper manually to each key, as shown in one of the videos posted recently on the project web site blog.  If an entire matrix row/column is bad, I recommend unscrewing the two screws on the controller and flexing the ribbon cable on both sides which has fixed the problem in the past in my experience.  Not sure I'd recommend this but a hair dryer or heat gun (not too hot) may help reflow a bad solder joint on the controller.  If the controller is determined to be bad, I will send out a replacement controller and ribbon cable (please PM me for details).
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 April 2020, 10:57:05 by Ellipse »

Offline Lu_e

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2365 on: Sun, 05 April 2020, 20:25:27 »
So when we buy a keyboard it comes with a stepped caps lock it looks like? But what about when we order a replacement set of keycaps?  "Extra Set of Brand New Production XT-quality one-piece keys" The picture shows a regular shape caps lock?

And on the "Front-printed keys F1, etc. or HHKB Addon Set", the front printed keys in the picture have green legends. Is the representative of what is being sold, green legends on the front printed keys?
MX

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2366 on: Sun, 05 April 2020, 20:33:39 »
No keys are stepped - some photos are with Unicomp and IBM keys before the new molds finished production.

All legends are black - please pardon the bad color in some of the photos.

Offline pchatterjee

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2367 on: Mon, 06 April 2020, 00:08:32 »
Two more variations going out:

The first variation below is the first assembled keyboard photographed with the custom Silver Gray case color.  I paid for some extras of this color beyond what was ordered by everyone so I have about 10 extra cases in stock.  This custom color will not be made in the final round so this is your only chance to order it.  The color is difficult to photograph but the Pantone Silver Gray color is what I would describe as a gray color with a small amount of blue.

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

I think thats the color I had asked for -- nnice to see it happening Ellipse!

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2368 on: Mon, 06 April 2020, 11:10:20 »
Yes pchatterjee thanks for recommending the case color! 

On an unrelated note, someone who purchased some foam to repair their PC AT has decided to post publicly their unhappy experience so I wanted to pre-empt that with my side of things. 

The customer noticed that part of the foam was assembled by glue and wanted a replacement.  While this is common with a number of the inner foams from the factory, I later agreed that if they just cut up the foam instead of sending it back, I'd mail them a replacement free of charge.  They then made some precise cuts to make it work in a PC AT keyboard, and said that they intended on keeping it as a spare.  My intention of course was to make sure the foam was cut up in a way that made the foam unusable so that they would not be keeping two foams while having paid for one.  The customer interprets the situation as me having reneged on my offer.  I didn't expect that "cut up" could be interpreted any other way.

Then less then 20 minutes after the customer asked for a return shipping label (which I sent by email), the customer says that the foam was discarded and they will not return the foam but still want a free replacement.

It doesn't make much sense for me to ask the customer to precisely cut the F107 foam to PC AT specifications in order to approve a replacement but that is what the customer told me was their understanding of my offer.

In the end I refunded the order in full and the original foam was not returned to me but the customer is still not happy with the experience.  I am of course open to constructive criticism and suggestions. 
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 April 2020, 13:32:26 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2369 on: Sat, 11 April 2020, 10:13:59 »
For those of you who are sellers, I'd be interested in hearing how you deal with uncooperative customers and enforce policies - please do share your stories if possible.

I remember all the efforts several years ago by some forum members to deal with the bank manager who had the room full of original Kishsaver keyboards but was difficult to deal with (for those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed) - that story stands out most for me.

Offline mode

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2370 on: Sat, 11 April 2020, 13:43:02 »
For those of you who are sellers, I'd be interested in hearing how you deal with uncooperative customers and enforce policies - please do share your stories if possible.

I remember all the efforts several years ago by some forum members to deal with the bank manager who had the room full of original Kishsaver keyboards but was difficult to deal with (for those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed) - that story stands out most for me.

Oooft.

That hurt to read.

I'd try not to worry about it Ellipse, some people are just *******s, you've put a lot of work into something that has and will make a lot of people happy, try not to let the odd bad apple spoil what you've achieved :)

Offline hoggy

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2371 on: Sat, 11 April 2020, 14:39:32 »
For those of you who are sellers, I'd be interested in hearing how you deal with uncooperative customers and enforce policies - please do share your stories if possible.

I remember all the efforts several years ago by some forum members to deal with the bank manager who had the room full of original Kishsaver keyboards but was difficult to deal with (for those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed) - that story stands out most for me.

Oooft.

That hurt to read.

I'd try not to worry about it Ellipse, some people are just *******s, you've put a lot of work into something that has and will make a lot of people happy, try not to let the odd bad apple spoil what you've achieved :)
Most people are nice, a small percentage aren't.  It's always going to be that way (unless the end of the world happens and the nice people get fed up). 

I thought your offer of a replacement foam in exchange for the destruction of the old one was well intentioned and pretty fair.  I also think think you had every reasonable cause to get frustrated with the rather liberal interpretation.

GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Online KetchyKech

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2372 on: Mon, 13 April 2020, 14:37:53 »
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that   I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!

I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow  :eek:

I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.

I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!

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Offline Twsts

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2373 on: Mon, 13 April 2020, 15:23:10 »
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that   I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!

I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow  :eek:

I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.

I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!


Looking good!

What did go wrong? Changing the case should be nothing more than loosing up the outside screws? No need take off the caps, and therefore mess anything up. I have had my keyboards apart a few times, even the inner plates to change the layout. The keyfeel is still superb.

That beeing said, I had the F77 delivered without caps, and the F62 with caps installed. And Joe have done a fantastic job tuning the F62 board to perfection. I have had at it on the F77, and tuning the sound of the springs to his level sure takes some time - but well worth it.


Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2374 on: Mon, 13 April 2020, 16:33:37 »
Nice photo KetchyKech!

Changing cases of the same type (i.e. classic to classic case or compact to compact case) is not too tough but you do need to remove the keys before removing the bottom inner assembly to switch between case types.  Also be sure to use both screws when re-attaching the controller to the other bottom inner assembly as it's required for grounding (otherwise the capacitive sensing won't be accurate).  There should be some tape covering the bottom of the controller where the ribbon cable is soldered, so the ends do not touch the metal case.  The ribbon cable ends may break through the tape and end up touching the bottom of the compact keyboard metal case if the keyboard was not correctly reassembled.

I have posted some instructional videos on how to open up the keyboard and put it back together, and the videos apply to inner assemblies from both types of cases (instructions are the same).

For troubleshooting keys that do not register in the xwhatsit software GUI, I recommend testing the PCB attached to the bottom inner assembly with the two screws but not installed with the barrels and flippers (a video posted on the web site blog shows how to do this testing).
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 April 2020, 16:35:15 by Ellipse »

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2375 on: Mon, 13 April 2020, 16:46:03 »
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that   I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!

I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow  :eek:

I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.

I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!

Show Image


Looks great. I have had keys start acting up, especially on the bottom row, when pulling the whole plate sandwich out of a case before, with F ATs, my F XT, and my F77. I think it only happens when I do quite a bit of manhandling. You'll get the hang of reseating/tweaking them quickly.

I just took my F77 home this past weekend to resolve the few keys that were buzzing, and lubed the spacebar stabilizer, since I have always had dielectric grease just lying around anyway.

I know you've probably seen it before, but the emphasis on reseating the keys with all of the legends upside-down (with the board resting squarely on the side from which the cable comes out) is very important. If that doesn't work after a few tries with your problem keys, I found that using a needlenose pliers to reach at least halfway down the barrel, grabbing the spring, and pressing it as straight down onto the little nub it is attached to on the flapper (about as low as you can go without kinking the spring) usually solves the problem for me, otherwise Ellipse has also mentioned removing the spring, and reversing it. I have been able to do this entirely with needlenose pliers as well, there's at least one awesome recent guide involving plastic tube and bamboo skewers.

Are the keys that aren't registering also ones that sound/feel weird? I would worry about tackling those with physical means first. I have had plenty of capacitive buckling spring flappers refuse to register until the cap/spring orientation was just right.

Online KetchyKech

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2376 on: Mon, 13 April 2020, 18:58:34 »
Nice photo KetchyKech!

Changing cases of the same type (i.e. classic to classic case or compact to compact case) is not too tough but you do need to remove the keys before removing the bottom inner assembly to switch between case types.  Also be sure to use both screws when re-attaching the controller to the other bottom inner assembly as it's required for grounding (otherwise the capacitive sensing won't be accurate).  There should be some tape covering the bottom of the controller where the ribbon cable is soldered, so the ends do not touch the metal case.  The ribbon cable ends may break through the tape and end up touching the bottom of the compact keyboard metal case if the keyboard was not correctly reassembled.

I have posted some instructional videos on how to open up the keyboard and put it back together, and the videos apply to inner assemblies from both types of cases (instructions are the same).

For troubleshooting keys that do not register in the xwhatsit software GUI, I recommend testing the PCB attached to the bottom inner assembly with the two screws but not installed with the barrels and flippers (a video posted on the web site blog shows how to do this testing).

I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that   I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!

I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow  :eek:

I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.

I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!


Looking good!

What did go wrong? Changing the case should be nothing more than loosing up the outside screws? No need take off the caps, and therefore mess anything up. I have had my keyboards apart a few times, even the inner plates to change the layout. The keyfeel is still superb.

That beeing said, I had the F77 delivered without caps, and the F62 with caps installed. And Joe have done a fantastic job tuning the F62 board to perfection. I have had at it on the F77, and tuning the sound of the springs to his level sure takes some time - but well worth it.



I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that   I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!

I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow  :eek:

I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.

I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!

Show Image


Looks great. I have had keys start acting up, especially on the bottom row, when pulling the whole plate sandwich out of a case before, with F ATs, my F XT, and my F77. I think it only happens when I do quite a bit of manhandling. You'll get the hang of reseating/tweaking them quickly.

I just took my F77 home this past weekend to resolve the few keys that were buzzing, and lubed the spacebar stabilizer, since I have always had dielectric grease just lying around anyway.

I know you've probably seen it before, but the emphasis on reseating the keys with all of the legends upside-down (with the board resting squarely on the side from which the cable comes out) is very important. If that doesn't work after a few tries with your problem keys, I found that using a needlenose pliers to reach at least halfway down the barrel, grabbing the spring, and pressing it as straight down onto the little nub it is attached to on the flapper (about as low as you can go without kinking the spring) usually solves the problem for me, otherwise Ellipse has also mentioned removing the spring, and reversing it. I have been able to do this entirely with needlenose pliers as well, there's at least one awesome recent guide involving plastic tube and bamboo skewers.

Are the keys that aren't registering also ones that sound/feel weird? I would worry about tackling those with physical means first. I have had plenty of capacitive buckling spring flappers refuse to register until the cap/spring orientation was just right.


Thanks guys, this info is very helpful -- I will give it another shot!  :thumb:

∴∵∴◇Time TKL--VE.A--F&T 1916--Cajal--Octagon v2◇∴∵∴

Offline profanum429

  • Posts: 61
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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2377 on: Mon, 13 April 2020, 21:47:33 »
Just got my F77 today. This is coolest thing I've gotten in quite some time. It worked great for me out of the box and sounds fantastic. I do need to convert it split backspace but that is a task for another day. Thanks again for a fantastic product!

Offline Twsts

  • Posts: 9
  • Location: Norway
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2378 on: Tue, 14 April 2020, 01:04:26 »
Cool! Didn't know the sandwitch had different backplates on the classic and the ultra compact - but I guess that makes sense, for it to actually fit.  :)

@KetchyKech, what you could try before disambling the whole thing again, is to try to take off a few caps and pinch the barrels and wigggle them from side to side. They should feel firm across the whole board. If they are somewhat wiggly, the tension in the sandwitch is not optimal - and it will give you an uneven keyfeel. Good way to check if everything is seated correctly in the sandwitch.

I had this on my F AT, even with new foam - the keyfeel was a little off and the barrels was a slightly wiggly in the middle of the board. I had to adjust the tension with bending the barrel plate so slightly inwards.
Beeing a Model F, you can be sure it can be fixed and tweaked to your liking for sure. :thumb:


Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2379 on: Tue, 14 April 2020, 09:03:54 »
Just got my F77 today. This is coolest thing I've gotten in quite some time.

Agreed 100%. I love blue alps, but I can't help but type on my F77 instead lately.

Cool! Didn't know the sandwitch had different backplates on the classic and the ultra compact - but I guess that makes sense, for it to actually fit.  :)

Am I missing something, or did somebody say that? I can't find it stated in recent posts.

I know one thing I'm really tempted to do is to buy a spare zinc case ... or 10, and figure out how to have Cherry or Alps plates made for them for some hand wiring.

Offline Twsts

  • Posts: 9
  • Location: Norway
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2380 on: Tue, 14 April 2020, 11:43:20 »
Cool! Didn't know the sandwitch had different backplates on the classic and the ultra compact - but I guess that makes sense, for it to actually fit.  :)

Am I missing something, or did somebody say that? I can't find it stated in recent posts.

I know one thing I'm really tempted to do is to buy a spare zinc case ... or 10, and figure out how to have Cherry or Alps plates made for them for some hand wiring.

Well if you read between the lines of Ellipse, he says you need to take of the caps to go from one chassis to another. Taking off the caps would only be needed if you have to take off the rainbow plate - to ensure no flying flippers. My guess is taking off the plate in this case would mean changing it out.
If you look at the backplate of a classic sandwich it have ears extending the PCB on both sides to clamp it to the bigger chassis with the screws, hence my understanding that these wont fit in the smaller ultra compact case, as these are not much wider than the PCB itself. Meaning you can't change from a classic to a ultra compact case or otherway around without a new backplate. Maybe Ellipse will make this more clear.

The zinc cases is sure very sturdy and every switch and keyboard should want one ;D

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1250
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2381 on: Tue, 14 April 2020, 13:36:47 »
Yes confirmed Twsts is correct.  As a note, for those ordering a spare case of a different type than that of your keyboard, I include the other bottom inner assembly at no extra charge so you can make the switch.

Yes the bend of the case is very important.  Sometimes the bottom inner assembly bend is too much and needs to be flattened out a little for optimal sound and performance (sometimes the top inner assembly bend needs to be increased).  I use a rubber mallet with the inner assembly part in a vice in these instances.

Offline profanum429

  • Posts: 61
  • Location: Florida, USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2382 on: Wed, 15 April 2020, 17:13:33 »
Finally a few pictures of my F77, serial #429 :)





Converted it to split backspace today; first time taking apart a Model F style board, luckily it came apart and went back together fairly easily and quickly :) Looking forward to ordering some dye sub keys soon to get those in when that process is complete! Wonderful board.

Offline TopreMoon

  • Posts: 33
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2383 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 00:05:01 »
Would it be possible to buy an extra classic case with two colors? I would love a beige top and a black bottom.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1250
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2384 on: Fri, 17 April 2020, 15:59:28 »
Thanks for posting your photos profanum429 and glad you were able to take care of the disassembly and reassembly perfectly. 

How did you put the bottom and top inner assemblies back into place?

Sure TopreMoon but please also order 20 units of the store item $1 increments for this custom option. 

Offline profanum429

  • Posts: 61
  • Location: Florida, USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2385 on: Sat, 18 April 2020, 08:10:26 »
Thanks for posting your photos profanum429 and glad you were able to take care of the disassembly and reassembly perfectly. 

How did you put the bottom and top inner assemblies back into place?

Sure TopreMoon but please also order 20 units of the store item $1 increments for this custom option.

I have a pair of soft jaw pliers that were pretty easy to use to pull the plates back together sideways then used them to snap them together at the top clips. It went back together pretty easily; pretty much like your video on disassembly and reassembly :)

Offline Twsts

  • Posts: 9
  • Location: Norway
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2386 on: Sat, 18 April 2020, 12:05:29 »
Added a little speaker to my F77 hooked up to the xwhatsit controller. And with the help from an Arduino nano I have a tuneable buzzer going :)





Offline Vizir

  • Posts: 293
  • Location: Tulsa, OK
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2387 on: Sat, 18 April 2020, 13:32:01 »
Added a little speaker to my F77 hooked up to the xwhatsit controller. And with the help from an Arduino nano I have a tuneable buzzer going :)

Show Image



That is awesome!

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Offline reavy

  • Posts: 20
  • Location: Phoenix
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2388 on: Mon, 20 April 2020, 03:50:30 »
for those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed

I searched and cannot find this, but it sounds fascinating. Do you or anyone else have a link to the full story?

As for difficult customers, I usually come to a “reasonable” solution that is a big disadvantage to me but reduces the likelihood of me getting doxed by them in the future. It’s why I avoid selling anything and just buy buy buy.
« Last Edit: Mon, 20 April 2020, 03:52:53 by reavy »

Offline Vizir

  • Posts: 293
  • Location: Tulsa, OK
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2389 on: Mon, 20 April 2020, 11:04:35 »
for those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed

I searched and cannot find this, but it sounds fascinating. Do you or anyone else have a link to the full story?

As for difficult customers, I usually come to a “reasonable” solution that is a big disadvantage to me but reduces the likelihood of me getting doxed by them in the future. It’s why I avoid selling anything and just buy buy buy.
The original thread seems to be lost. But here's a reference

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgeekhack%2Eorg%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D66122%2E0&share_tid=66122&share_fid=2190&share_type=t&link_source=app

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Offline hoggy

  • * Ergonomics Moderator
  • Posts: 1498
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2390 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 00:48:05 »
I remember reading that thread.  Indeed sad news.  The bank manager needed some form of proof that the keyboards couldn't have any details, passwords, etc stored in the device... And since no one could provide that proof, they had to be destroyed. 

The only way for those keyboards could have been saved was if the bank folded overnight. 

It's hard to see why the bank manager would risk his job, for money that would go to the bank, and a small amount as far as the bank is concerned.

We saw them as kittens in a rescue home ... But we're special.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline laden3

  • Posts: 594
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2391 on: Sat, 25 April 2020, 12:05:01 »
How do I check the shipping date of my keyboard?
I rrrove brrracks.

Offline mikaltch

  • Posts: 2
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2392 on: Tue, 28 April 2020, 19:26:51 »
Has anyone tried Lubing these buckling spring switches? If so:

1. How does this change the feel/tone
2. What lube do you use and is there a specific technique in doing it?
3. Where on these switches do you lube?
« Last Edit: Fri, 01 May 2020, 21:36:34 by mikaltch »

Offline rgleas

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2393 on: Wed, 29 April 2020, 07:09:12 »
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that   I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!

I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow  :eek:

I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.

I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!

Show Image


Hey I hope your f62 working properly now. I've found that voltage of 126 with column skips set to 9-15 (make sure to store to EPROM after adjusting each one). Also I had a backspace that wasn't registering properly, and I took the key off, wiggled the spring a bit, and then reinstalled the key (while looking at the layout in the ibm_capsence software to be assured it was registering). Finally, the easiest way I've found to assure good sounding keys is by just taking the key on and off (while giving it soft pressure and a good wiggle until it goes in), and if it doesn't sound great, it usually will after a few attempts. I did notice Ellipse recommends tilting the board vertically with the spacebar up for key installation however. I hope this helps.

I absolutely love my f62 and it's hands down the best keyboard I've ever used. I think it really helped that Ellipse sent that board out with the keys already installed and tested for quality, and made the adjustments fairly minimal. I did also order an f77 and since the printed keys are still not in yet, it just came with the springs only. So I installed a set of unicomp keys on the board, and the difference is honestly night and day. The keys Ellipse provides are just buttery smooth and fit the board like a glove. Also Ellipse has been absolutely incredible in terms of answering questions, providing solutions/advice, and always following up to ensure issues get resolved. They don't make customer service like that anymore! Cheers!

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2394 on: Wed, 29 April 2020, 08:45:55 »
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that   I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!

I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow  :eek:

I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.

I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!

Show Image


Hey I hope your f62 working properly now. I've found that voltage of 126 with column skips set to 9-15 (make sure to store to EPROM after adjusting each one). Also I had a backspace that wasn't registering properly, and I took the key off, wiggled the spring a bit, and then reinstalled the key (while looking at the layout in the ibm_capsence software to be assured it was registering). Finally, the easiest way I've found to assure good sounding keys is by just taking the key on and off (while giving it soft pressure and a good wiggle until it goes in), and if it doesn't sound great, it usually will after a few attempts. I did notice Ellipse recommends tilting the board vertically with the spacebar up for key installation however. I hope this helps.

I absolutely love my f62 and it's hands down the best keyboard I've ever used. I think it really helped that Ellipse sent that board out with the keys already installed and tested for quality, and made the adjustments fairly minimal. I did also order an f77 and since the printed keys are still not in yet, it just came with the springs only. So I installed a set of unicomp keys on the board, and the difference is honestly night and day. The keys Ellipse provides are just buttery smooth and fit the board like a glove. Also Ellipse has been absolutely incredible in terms of answering questions, providing solutions/advice, and always following up to ensure issues get resolved. They don't make customer service like that anymore! Cheers!

Nice post, and nice boards. How do the actuation points between the Unicomp caps and the new production F caps compare? My F77 with blank caps is still out in the ether somewhere, so I can't yet compare.

Offline rgleas

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2395 on: Wed, 29 April 2020, 12:18:19 »
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that   I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!

I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow  :eek:

I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.

I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!

Show Image


Hey I hope your f62 working properly now. I've found that voltage of 126 with column skips set to 9-15 (make sure to store to EPROM after adjusting each one). Also I had a backspace that wasn't registering properly, and I took the key off, wiggled the spring a bit, and then reinstalled the key (while looking at the layout in the ibm_capsence software to be assured it was registering). Finally, the easiest way I've found to assure good sounding keys is by just taking the key on and off (while giving it soft pressure and a good wiggle until it goes in), and if it doesn't sound great, it usually will after a few attempts. I did notice Ellipse recommends tilting the board vertically with the spacebar up for key installation however. I hope this helps.

I absolutely love my f62 and it's hands down the best keyboard I've ever used. I think it really helped that Ellipse sent that board out with the keys already installed and tested for quality, and made the adjustments fairly minimal. I did also order an f77 and since the printed keys are still not in yet, it just came with the springs only. So I installed a set of unicomp keys on the board, and the difference is honestly night and day. The keys Ellipse provides are just buttery smooth and fit the board like a glove. Also Ellipse has been absolutely incredible in terms of answering questions, providing solutions/advice, and always following up to ensure issues get resolved. They don't make customer service like that anymore! Cheers!

Nice post, and nice boards. How do the actuation points between the Unicomp caps and the new production F caps compare? My F77 with blank caps is still out in the ether somewhere, so I can't yet compare.

Hey there. So I just did a quick test to see. Note that the unicomp keys are on my F77 and the F62 has the new keys, as well as that I just tested the upper right keys for each board...As for the results, the new keys on the F62 actuated at 52 grams and the unicomp keys on the F77 actuated at 55 grams. I'm basing this off of the full key sinking in as well which I'm unsure if that's exactly what you were asking. The click of the spring which I suppose does denote actuation, occurred roughly 1-2 grams prior for both. Hope this helped!

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2396 on: Wed, 29 April 2020, 12:48:36 »
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that   I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!

I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow  :eek:

I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.

I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!

Show Image


Hey I hope your f62 working properly now. I've found that voltage of 126 with column skips set to 9-15 (make sure to store to EPROM after adjusting each one). Also I had a backspace that wasn't registering properly, and I took the key off, wiggled the spring a bit, and then reinstalled the key (while looking at the layout in the ibm_capsence software to be assured it was registering). Finally, the easiest way I've found to assure good sounding keys is by just taking the key on and off (while giving it soft pressure and a good wiggle until it goes in), and if it doesn't sound great, it usually will after a few attempts. I did notice Ellipse recommends tilting the board vertically with the spacebar up for key installation however. I hope this helps.

I absolutely love my f62 and it's hands down the best keyboard I've ever used. I think it really helped that Ellipse sent that board out with the keys already installed and tested for quality, and made the adjustments fairly minimal. I did also order an f77 and since the printed keys are still not in yet, it just came with the springs only. So I installed a set of unicomp keys on the board, and the difference is honestly night and day. The keys Ellipse provides are just buttery smooth and fit the board like a glove. Also Ellipse has been absolutely incredible in terms of answering questions, providing solutions/advice, and always following up to ensure issues get resolved. They don't make customer service like that anymore! Cheers!

Nice post, and nice boards. How do the actuation points between the Unicomp caps and the new production F caps compare? My F77 with blank caps is still out in the ether somewhere, so I can't yet compare.

Hey there. So I just did a quick test to see. Note that the unicomp keys are on my F77 and the F62 has the new keys, as well as that I just tested the upper right keys for each board...As for the results, the new keys on the F62 actuated at 52 grams and the unicomp keys on the F77 actuated at 55 grams. I'm basing this off of the full key sinking in as well which I'm unsure if that's exactly what you were asking. The click of the spring which I suppose does denote actuation, occurred roughly 1-2 grams prior for both. Hope this helped!

Sorry, I should have been more clear, although that's also interesting. Do you think that's maybe just a difference in friction? What I meant is how far the keycap depresses before the spring buckles. I mentioned in my review of my F77 that it seems to buckle higher than on original Model Fs, but I was using Model M keycaps, which apparently have slightly different geometries. I should stop being lazy and swap the caps myself, but My original Fs are all at different locations than my F77.

Offline Azurewrath

  • Posts: 37
  • Location: Munich, Germany
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2397 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 08:45:38 »
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did you ever think of making and selling a "Model MF"? What i mean by this is: Model F high quality internals/switches and maybe a full metal case and the modern layout of the full size (ISO 105) Model M? That combined with a USB-C Port and it would be perfect.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2398 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 11:05:53 »
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did you ever think of making and selling a "Model MF"? What i mean by this is: Model F high quality internals/switches and maybe a full metal case and the modern layout of the full size (ISO 105) Model M? That combined with a USB-C Port and it would be perfect.

I think that the purpose of this project was to reproduce the F62 and F77 specifically, as the originals are exceedingly rare. I wish he had made a new production F107, but those are apparently common enough to not be on the radar.

Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot. The only difference is you choose how you want that separate cluster of keys on the right to be configured. Mine has TKL-style arrow keys, media controls, and delete, print screen, and escape. You could configure it like a standard TKL, or a number pad.

These boards are meant to be modified however you like. With mine, I drilled out the hole for the USB cable and glued in a nice and beefy female GX12 aviator socket, and made a corresponding cable for it.

Offline shine

  • Posts: 28
  • Location: Spain
  • IBM obsessed
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2399 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 14:12:46 »
I would kill for a F107

Sorry if this has been asked before, but did you ever think of making and selling a "Model MF"? What i mean by this is: Model F high quality internals/switches and maybe a full metal case and the modern layout of the full size (ISO 105) Model M? That combined with a USB-C Port and it would be perfect.

I think that the purpose of this project was to reproduce the F62 and F77 specifically, as the originals are exceedingly rare. I wish he had made a new production F107, but those are apparently common enough to not be on the radar.

Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot. The only difference is you choose how you want that separate cluster of keys on the right to be configured. Mine has TKL-style arrow keys, media controls, and delete, print screen, and escape. You could configure it like a standard TKL, or a number pad.

These boards are meant to be modified however you like. With mine, I drilled out the hole for the USB cable and glued in a nice and beefy female GX12 aviator socket, and made a corresponding cable for it.
Looking for: F107, 3277, 3278, 3279, 4978(XD!)