Author Topic: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards  (Read 660515 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline macclack

  • Posts: 446
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • Macclack
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2550 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 12:31:41 »
@macclack: Per your request, I have cobbled together a video with some typing sounds of my new F62 along with an IBM-XT for comparison.


As I mentioned previously, I prefer the sound and feel of the XT. However, I find the F62 more usable because of its smaller footprint and standard layout in the main typing area. On the other hand, a usability feature that I installed on my XT is a flush-mount USB connector, making it easier to swap keyboards on my desk setup. I may eventually do the same for my F62.

Thanks for posting this  :thumb:

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2551 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 17:23:43 »
@macclack: Glad to oblige! Hope it was helpful. BTW, I am now working on a floss mod for the F62, and I have ordered some O-rings to fit around the base of the barrels on the barrel plate to see if they attenuate bottoming-out noise. Will post my findings.

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2552 on: Thu, 16 July 2020, 09:59:01 »
@Ellipse: (Or Anyone who has done a "floss mod" on the F62 or F77):

I have just finished doing a floss mod on my new F62 keyboard. Whereas this was very easy on my IBM-XT, the F62 required multiple tries to get the flossed spring to buckle after putting the key back on. I used the same Oral-B Superfloss on both boards, and I used the same procedure. The problem with flossing the F62 was most pronounced near the center of the keyboard. So, for example, it took MANY tries to get the following keys to buckle properly: 6, u, h, n. In fact, I was not able to get the "n" key to buckle after countless trys. I tried changing the floss and trimming the floss to different lengths, all to no avail. Consequently, I removed the floss from the n-key and then it buckled, but of course now it pings. Could this difficulty have something to do with unequal tension between the backplate and barrel plate at different points along the rows? Has anyone else experienced difficulty with a floss mod on their new F62 and/or F77 keyboards?

Offline rgleas

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2553 on: Fri, 17 July 2020, 10:22:19 »
Hello again everyone, I have another Solenoid related question.

I've seen, I believe Twisty using some plywood for his solenoid to thump against, and I was curious if having something to thump against is necessary? Is having it thump against the case in a New Model F not ideal? I've also seen some folks have the solenoid thumping against a keycap. If anyone has done the mod, i'd love to see some pictures of what it looks like inside the case!

Thank you and Cheers!

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1267
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2554 on: Fri, 17 July 2020, 12:12:13 »
rgleas, upon actuation of a key, the solenoid bar goes inwards (inside the solenoid coil) and the metal clip on the solenoid cylindrical bar clicks against the solenoid itself.  Upon release the solenoid has an o ring or damper ring so that there is not a second click upon return of the solenoid bar.  The mod with the wood, I believe, is to have the solenoid make contact with the wood which contacts the case - all of this is on the "solenoid return" part.  So with this mod, there would be a click upon actuation, and a potentially larger click upon return of the solenoid into its original position.

Offline rgleas

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2555 on: Fri, 17 July 2020, 12:20:02 »
rgleas, upon actuation of a key, the solenoid bar goes inwards (inside the solenoid coil) and the metal clip on the solenoid cylindrical bar clicks against the solenoid itself.  Upon release the solenoid has an o ring or damper ring so that there is not a second click upon return of the solenoid bar.  The mod with the wood, I believe, is to have the solenoid make contact with the wood which contacts the case - all of this is on the "solenoid return" part.  So with this mod, there would be a click upon actuation, and a potentially larger click upon return of the solenoid into its original position.

Thank you! That was helpful.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1267
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2556 on: Fri, 17 July 2020, 12:41:02 »
We passed the 400 keyboards milestone this week!  407 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped so far.

Offline darkcruix

  • Posts: 62
  • Location: Germany
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2557 on: Fri, 17 July 2020, 15:13:41 »
We passed the 400 keyboards milestone this week!  407 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped so far.

Congratulations! Apart from one of the F77 that had a larger than usual gap between the case, they have all been perfect (the one with the larger gap was an easy fix). Compared to my 35+ year old other IBM Model -F keyboards this was a spectacular experience. I used three of them during the last weeks with QMK as firmware and two with 0.9.2 xwhatsit. My primary one (F77), which I use about 8 hours a day is ... can I say ... perfect? I have to admit that during calls and video conferences, I have to put myself on mute when typing, but that is what I am doing since years to not annoy others :)


Offline reavy

  • Posts: 22
  • Location: Phoenix
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2558 on: Fri, 17 July 2020, 15:47:35 »
Even my Topre Realforce Type S keyboard triggers Webexís background noise detection algorithm. Iíve just given up on finding a keyboard that is quiet enough for video/tele conferencing. TBH I have found that if youíre not paying so close attention to the call that youíre typing anything other than notes, itís better to leave the call and spend your time on productive work.

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2559 on: Fri, 17 July 2020, 17:00:51 »
Update on my F62:

1. Floss mod. Finally got the stubborn "n" key to buckle by trimming the floss so that it was about 1 mm shorter than the spring.

2. Spurious keypresses. Flashed and remapped with QMK. The spurious keypresses seem to have disappeared.

3. O-ring mod. I found the same size of O-rings that have been found in some versions of the IBM Wheelwriter. The dimensions are 16mm OD, 12mm ID, 2mm thickness. They slip easily over the barrels in the new F62 or F77. I left them resting on the "nubs" on each of the barrels rather than stretching them to fit flat against the top of the barrel plate. I applied them only to the barrels of the modifers and the spacebar. I decided, at least for now, not to put O-rings on the alphanumeric keys. The result -- attenuation of the metallic bottoming-out sound.

Tnanks to the floss mod, the "ping" is gone, and the O-ring treatment has reduced the bottoming-out noise. A good thing about these mods is that they are easily and completely reversible if you do not like the effects.

It also appears that QMK might be a better and easier way than ibm-capsense to autocalibrate F62/77 boards and map the keys, although we all owe a debt of gratitude to Xwhatsit for his pioneering work on Model-F and Beam Spring controllers and firmware that made it possible for the rest of us to use these great keyboards with contemporary computers.


Offline TopreMoon

  • Posts: 33
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2560 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 16:25:31 »
Thanks for sharing your experiences with the mods!

How do you compare your experience with your modded F62 to your HHKB?

I mainly ask because while I enjoy typing on the F62 (unmodded), whenever I switch back to my Type-S HHKB, I'm reminded of how the HHKB is so much more gentle and quiet comparatively.

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2561 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 19:11:37 »
@darkcruix:
@reavy:
I agree that any Model-F board would be too loud to use during a teleconference. However, with quiet keyboards such as a silenced HHKB, it is not only the quietness of the board that matters, it is also the isolation of the microphone from the desk. My keyboard sits on a large rubberized mat, which absorbs some of the sound. For a microphone, I use either a headset mic or a microphone that is suspended from a flexible arm clamped to a bookshelf and mounted in a radial isolator. During calls, I take notes using my silenced HHKB. I haven't tested background noise with software, but I have asked conference participants if they can hear my typing sounds, and they say that they cannot.

@TopreMoon: Comparing my modded F62 to my lubed and silenced HHKB Pro 2 is a classic case of comparing, say, basketballs to bananas. I enjoy both keyboards, but for different reasons. They each provide a distinctive typing experience, but the nature of the experience is quite different. I suppose the similarities include tactility and the satisfaction of using machines built from quality components. The obvious difference between the two boards is the sound -- they differ in loudness, pitch, and timbre.

Offline rgleas

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2562 on: Tue, 21 July 2020, 14:34:57 »
Hello geekhackers, I made a new video to demonstrate (the perhaps subtle) differences between the Unicomp Keycaps and the New Model F Keycaps both on the same F77. I just received a fresh set of blank New Model F Keycaps yesterday, and they definitely make a huge difference.

Cheers!


Offline rgleas

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2563 on: Wed, 22 July 2020, 13:14:17 »
Solenoid succesfully installed into my F62. Please enjoy the demonstration.

Offline minnus

  • Posts: 29
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2564 on: Wed, 22 July 2020, 21:04:30 »

@TopreMoon: Comparing my modded F62 to my lubed and silenced HHKB Pro 2 is a classic case of comparing, say, basketballs to bananas. I enjoy both keyboards, but for different reasons. They each provide a distinctive typing experience, but the nature of the experience is quite different. I suppose the similarities include tactility and the satisfaction of using machines built from quality components. The obvious difference between the two boards is the sound -- they differ in loudness, pitch, and timbre.

With the removal of the harsh ping with the floss mod, and a potentially softer actuation with the o-rings, it would seem to me that it should start resembling Topre more than a traditional buckling springs experience - maybe not though! If I'm brave enough, maybe I'll do the mods myself one day and compare.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 July 2020, 21:06:54 by minnus »

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2565 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 08:56:43 »
@minnus: Even with the floss mod on all of the keys and the O-rings on the modifiers and spacebar, the F62 still has the sharp, crisp tactility accompanied by the staccato click of the Model-F switches. This is so at least on the alpha and number keys. The sound and feel of the modifiers and spacebar on the F62 is indeed softened to some degree by the O-rings.

The tactility of the HHKB Pro Hybrid Type-S feels less sharp than that of the F62, and the sound is much different from that of the F62. It is certainly much, much quieter. Moreover, the nature of the sound is quite different -- a muted "thock" compared to a sharp click.

I very much like both of these keyboards for different reasons. For the moment, the F62 has become my daily driver except for teleconferences, when I switch over to my HHKB.



 

 




Offline rgleas

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2566 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 20:14:27 »
@minnus: Even with the floss mod on all of the keys and the O-rings on the modifiers and spacebar, the F62 still has the sharp, crisp tactility accompanied by the staccato click of the Model-F switches. This is so at least on the alpha and number keys. The sound and feel of the modifiers and spacebar on the F62 is indeed softened to some degree by the O-rings.

The tactility of the HHKB Pro Hybrid Type-S feels less sharp than that of the F62, and the sound is much different from that of the F62. It is certainly much, much quieter. Moreover, the nature of the sound is quite different -- a muted "thock" compared to a sharp click.

I very much like both of these keyboards for different reasons. For the moment, the F62 has become my daily driver except for teleconferences, when I switch over to my HHKB.

Interesting, so you enjoy typing on the HHKB Pro Hybrid Type-S? I generally use my Dell AT101W with Black Alps when I need to be quiet lol, but I was debating on getting an HHKB for quiet times after enjoying the 60% setup so much.

So I jumped onto the New Model F hype train without any second thoughts, since I was daily driving a Unicomp Model M already and loved the feel. But do topre really feel nice? Is it easy for you to switch between the F62 and HHKB, with the 4 less keys?
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 July 2020, 21:07:14 by rgleas »

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2567 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 06:36:19 »
@rgleas: Yes, I enjoy typing on the HHKB Pro Hybrid Type-S. Before acquiring this latest update in the HHKB line, I used a HHKB Pro 2 that I lubed and silenced myself with my own silencing rings. I used that HHKB Pro 2 almost exclusively for about 5 years in my home office, and I have two others that I still use on two of my computers at work.

I don't use the HHKB merely because it is quiet -- I like the 60% form factor, layout, feel, appearance, and quality components as well. A great deal of thought went into the design of the HHKB. It was developed by Prof. Wada, a computer scientist at the University of Tokyo, after years of research. The first-generation was introduced in 1996 followed by the Pro in 2003, the Pro 2 in 2006, and the Pro Classic and Pro Hybrid in 2020.

In particular, I like the HHKB layout -- in fact, I quickly became addicted to it. My keyboard collection is extensive, but all the keyboards that I have in my rotation have been remapped to a layout as close as possible to that of the HHKB.

Before discovering the HHKB, I used Model M boards at home and work. When I rediscoved Model F keyboards, I liked the Model F switches so much, I thought it would be great if there were a 60% Model F keyboard in the HHKB layout. Then, along came Ellipse and his F62/F77 project. It was a no-brainer for me to order these for both my home and work offices.

My F62 has the split backspace and split right shift of the HHKB. It has two additional keys on the bottom row, but otherwise the F62 and HHKB boards have the same layout, so it is very easy to go back and forth between the two keyboards.



Offline rgleas

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2568 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 06:46:44 »
@rgleas: Yes, I enjoy typing on the HHKB Pro Hybrid Type-S. Before acquiring this latest update in the HHKB line, I used a HHKB Pro 2 that I lubed and silenced myself with my own silencing rings. I used that HHKB Pro 2 almost exclusively for about 5 years in my home office, and I have two others that I still use on two of my computers at work.

I don't use the HHKB merely because it is quiet -- I like the 60% form factor, layout, feel, appearance, and quality components as well. A great deal of thought went into the design of the HHKB. It was developed by Prof. Wada, a computer scientist at the University of Tokyo, after years of research. The first-generation was introduced in 1996 followed by the Pro in 2003, the Pro 2 in 2006, and the Pro Classic and Pro Hybrid in 2020.

In particular, I like the HHKB layout -- in fact, I quickly became addicted to it. My keyboard collection is extensive, but all the keyboards that I have in my rotation have been remapped to a layout as close as possible to that of the HHKB.

Before discovering the HHKB, I used Model M boards at home and work. When I rediscoved Model F keyboards, I liked the Model F switches so much, I thought it would be great if there were a 60% Model F keyboard in the HHKB layout. Then, along came Ellipse and his F62/F77 project. It was a no-brainer for me to order these for both my home and work offices.

My F62 has the split backspace and split right shift of the HHKB. It has two additional keys on the bottom row, but otherwise the F62 and HHKB boards have the same layout, so it is very easy to go back and forth between the two keyboards.

Awesome, very helpful. Did you get classic F62's or the space saving ones? I'll probably pick up a type-s once I find one at a decent price. When I'm doing type racer or something like that later at night on my Model F's it can be heard from pretty much every room in my house lol.

Online LightningXI

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3831
  • Location: New York
  • PPD
    • ArtisanMacro
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2569 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 06:56:26 »
Update on my F62:

1. Floss mod. Finally got the stubborn "n" key to buckle by trimming the floss so that it was about 1 mm shorter than the spring.

2. Spurious keypresses. Flashed and remapped with QMK. The spurious keypresses seem to have disappeared.

3. O-ring mod. I found the same size of O-rings that have been found in some versions of the IBM Wheelwriter. The dimensions are 16mm OD, 12mm ID, 2mm thickness. They slip easily over the barrels in the new F62 or F77. I left them resting on the "nubs" on each of the barrels rather than stretching them to fit flat against the top of the barrel plate. I applied them only to the barrels of the modifers and the spacebar. I decided, at least for now, not to put O-rings on the alphanumeric keys. The result -- attenuation of the metallic bottoming-out sound.

Tnanks to the floss mod, the "ping" is gone, and the O-ring treatment has reduced the bottoming-out noise. A good thing about these mods is that they are easily and completely reversible if you do not like the effects.

It also appears that QMK might be a better and easier way than ibm-capsense to autocalibrate F62/77 boards and map the keys, although we all owe a debt of gratitude to Xwhatsit for his pioneering work on Model-F and Beam Spring controllers and firmware that made it possible for the rest of us to use these great keyboards with contemporary computers.





I can't find the folder on the qmk repo to flash my F62 -- is there a repo somewhere else? It seems it's still in beta and hasn't been PR'd to the main repo

Do you also follow a particular guide for floss-modding in a systematic manner? I'll probably try floss-modding mine. (edit: nvm, just reading skcheng's guide)

edit 2: ordered me some o-rings and superfloss :)
« Last Edit: Fri, 24 July 2020, 07:15:22 by LightningXI »

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2570 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 07:37:48 »
@rgleas: Well, if you haven't guessed by now, I spend far too much on keyboards! Accordingly, I've ordered both the standard and "ultra-compact" varieties of the F62. I've also ordered a standard F77. The standard ones have arrived (I opted to get them early w/o keys installed) and the compact ones are somewhere in the pipeline. I am planning to install a panel-mount USB-C connector on my standard-case models; if this is successful, I will post the results.

@LightningXI: I think QMK for the new model F boards is still in beta. You would need to contact pandrew or tentator to request access, and use at your own risk. Regarding the floss mod, I just recalled what I did on my first keyboard restoration quite a few years ago with my IBM-XT. At that time, I searched the forums for tips on how to do it. Essentially, you get some Oral-B Superfloss and cut pieces from the fuzzy part of the floss that are the length of the switch springs or about 1 mm longer. You insert these pieces of floss into each of the springs and put the key back on while holding the keyboard 90 degrees to the benchtop with the keyboard resting on its back edge -- this position causes the springs to be centered in the barrels so that the spring will buckle properly when the key is snapped into place.

Online LightningXI

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3831
  • Location: New York
  • PPD
    • ArtisanMacro
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2571 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 07:40:52 »
@LightningXI: I think QMK for the new model F boards is still in beta. You would need to contact pandrew or tentator to request access, and use at your own risk. Regarding the floss mod, I just recalled what I did on my first keyboard restoration quite a few years ago with my IBM-XT. At that time, I searched the forums for tips on how to do it. Essentially, you get some Oral-B Superfloss and cut pieces from the fuzzy part of the floss that are the length of the switch springs or about 1 mm longer. You insert these pieces of floss into each of the springs and put the key back on while holding the keyboard 90 degrees to the benchtop with the keyboard resting on its back edge -- this position causes the springs to be centered in the barrels so that the spring will buckle properly when the key is snapped into place.

Thanks for this detailed explanation on floss mod! Can't wait for the Superfloss to arrive so that I can try this.

I'll shoot pandrew/tentator a message over on DT. :thumb:


Offline rgleas

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2572 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 09:13:21 »
@rgleas: Well, if you haven't guessed by now, I spend far too much on keyboards! Accordingly, I've ordered both the standard and "ultra-compact" varieties of the F62. I've also ordered a standard F77. The standard ones have arrived (I opted to get them early w/o keys installed) and the compact ones are somewhere in the pipeline. I am planning to install a panel-mount USB-C connector on my standard-case models; if this is successful, I will post the results.

@LightningXI: I think QMK for the new model F boards is still in beta. You would need to contact pandrew or tentator to request access, and use at your own risk. Regarding the floss mod, I just recalled what I did on my first keyboard restoration quite a few years ago with my IBM-XT. At that time, I searched the forums for tips on how to do it. Essentially, you get some Oral-B Superfloss and cut pieces from the fuzzy part of the floss that are the length of the switch springs or about 1 mm longer. You insert these pieces of floss into each of the springs and put the key back on while holding the keyboard 90 degrees to the benchtop with the keyboard resting on its back edge -- this position causes the springs to be centered in the barrels so that the spring will buckle properly when the key is snapped into place.

Very cool! Yeah I have an F62 and F77 myself, both with the lovely blank New Model F keycaps.

Another question concerning your HHKB, which domes do you prefer/use? I know Chyrosan says the ultimate Topre keyboard is an HHKB Pro 2 Type-S with Ultra Light BKE Redux domes. However, since the F62 switches seem to be around 55g, I'm wondering if the Topre 55g option would be the best option for switching back and forth. I know that when I switch between my Model Fs and Black Alps board, the 75g Black alps always mess up my flow going back and forth.

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2573 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 13:32:11 »
@rgleas: Well, if you haven't guessed by now, I spend far too much on keyboards! Accordingly, I've ordered both the standard and "ultra-compact" varieties of the F62. I've also ordered a standard F77. The standard ones have arrived (I opted to get them early w/o keys installed) and the compact ones are somewhere in the pipeline. I am planning to install a panel-mount USB-C connector on my standard-case models; if this is successful, I will post the results.

@LightningXI: I think QMK for the new model F boards is still in beta. You would need to contact pandrew or tentator to request access, and use at your own risk. Regarding the floss mod, I just recalled what I did on my first keyboard restoration quite a few years ago with my IBM-XT. At that time, I searched the forums for tips on how to do it. Essentially, you get some Oral-B Superfloss and cut pieces from the fuzzy part of the floss that are the length of the switch springs or about 1 mm longer. You insert these pieces of floss into each of the springs and put the key back on while holding the keyboard 90 degrees to the benchtop with the keyboard resting on its back edge -- this position causes the springs to be centered in the barrels so that the spring will buckle properly when the key is snapped into place.

Very cool! Yeah I have an F62 and F77 myself, both with the lovely blank New Model F keycaps.

Another question concerning your HHKB, which domes do you prefer/use? I know Chyrosan says the ultimate Topre keyboard is an HHKB Pro 2 Type-S with Ultra Light BKE Redux domes. However, since the F62 switches seem to be around 55g, I'm wondering if the Topre 55g option would be the best option for switching back and forth. I know that when I switch between my Model Fs and Black Alps board, the 75g Black alps always mess up my flow going back and forth.
Topre, Model F buckling spring, and mx black switches are so different, it is difficult to make direct comparisons between actuation forces. Shown below are some force-displacement curves for each of these switch types.



247833-1



I like to bottom-out my keystrokes, and I find mx black switches fatiguing because the linear force keeps increasing beyond the actuation point. Topre switches have a gentle increase and a decline in force beyond the actuation point. Model F switches have a sharp drop-off in force at the actuation point corresponding to the catastrophic collapse (buckling) of the spring. Topre switches are actually similar to buckling springs in a way, because the domes undergo a catastrophic collapse to provide the tactile response.

Regarding Topre (and Topre in the HHKB Pro 2 specifically), many people tend to prefer the stock 45g domes. You can get 55g by transplanting domes from 55g Topre keyboards, such as 55g Realforce (RF) boards. I have done this in one of my HHKB Pro 2 boards. At first, I enjoyed the exaggerated tactility, but I found that for prolonged typing sessions, 55g domes became a bit tiring. I really think that 45g is the sweet spot for both HHKB Pro 2 boards and Realforce boards.

Another factor to consider is that HHKB switches are case-mounted in the plastic case, whereas RF Topre switches are plate-mounted in a steel plate. This makes typing on the RF a bit more stressful to the fingers because of the unyielding steel plate. Although the RF feels more solid and refined than the HHKB (to me at least), I prefer typing on the HHKB -- it is livelier and less fatiguing.

Thus far, I am having no problems adjusting when I switch between my HHKB and F62 boards. I think it would be much more difficult to switch between an mx black board and either Topre or Model F.


Offline rgleas

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2574 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 14:55:30 »
@rgleas: Well, if you haven't guessed by now, I spend far too much on keyboards! Accordingly, I've ordered both the standard and "ultra-compact" varieties of the F62. I've also ordered a standard F77. The standard ones have arrived (I opted to get them early w/o keys installed) and the compact ones are somewhere in the pipeline. I am planning to install a panel-mount USB-C connector on my standard-case models; if this is successful, I will post the results.

@LightningXI: I think QMK for the new model F boards is still in beta. You would need to contact pandrew or tentator to request access, and use at your own risk. Regarding the floss mod, I just recalled what I did on my first keyboard restoration quite a few years ago with my IBM-XT. At that time, I searched the forums for tips on how to do it. Essentially, you get some Oral-B Superfloss and cut pieces from the fuzzy part of the floss that are the length of the switch springs or about 1 mm longer. You insert these pieces of floss into each of the springs and put the key back on while holding the keyboard 90 degrees to the benchtop with the keyboard resting on its back edge -- this position causes the springs to be centered in the barrels so that the spring will buckle properly when the key is snapped into place.

Very cool! Yeah I have an F62 and F77 myself, both with the lovely blank New Model F keycaps.

Another question concerning your HHKB, which domes do you prefer/use? I know Chyrosan says the ultimate Topre keyboard is an HHKB Pro 2 Type-S with Ultra Light BKE Redux domes. However, since the F62 switches seem to be around 55g, I'm wondering if the Topre 55g option would be the best option for switching back and forth. I know that when I switch between my Model Fs and Black Alps board, the 75g Black alps always mess up my flow going back and forth.
Topre, Model F buckling spring, and mx black switches are so different, it is difficult to make direct comparisons between actuation forces. Shown below are some force-displacement curves for each of these switch types.

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

I like to bottom-out my keystrokes, and I find mx black switches fatiguing because the linear force keeps increasing beyond the actuation point. Topre switches have a gentle increase and a decline in force beyond the actuation point. Model F switches have a sharp drop-off in force at the actuation point corresponding to the catastrophic collapse (buckling) of the spring. Topre switches are actually similar to buckling springs in a way, because the domes undergo a catastrophic collapse to provide the tactile response.

Regarding Topre (and Topre in the HHKB Pro 2 specifically), many people tend to prefer the stock 45g domes. You can get 55g by transplanting domes from 55g Topre keyboards, such as 55g Realforce (RF) boards. I have done this in one of my HHKB Pro 2 boards. At first, I enjoyed the exaggerated tactility, but I found that for prolonged typing sessions, 55g domes became a bit tiring. I really think that 45g is the sweet spot for both HHKB Pro 2 boards and Realforce boards.

Another factor to consider is that HHKB switches are case-mounted in the plastic case, whereas RF Topre switches are plate-mounted in a steel plate. This makes typing on the RF a bit more stressful to the fingers because of the unyielding steel plate. Although the RF feels more solid and refined than the HHKB (to me at least), I prefer typing on the HHKB -- it is livelier and less fatiguing.

Thus far, I am having no problems adjusting when I switch between my HHKB and F62 boards. I think it would be much more difficult to switch between an mx black board and either Topre or Model F.

Not mx black, I use Alps SKCM Black switches. Good stuff though, I'll probably try out the stock 45g switches and see if I like it. Thanks!

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1267
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2575 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 16:05:32 »
The custom made solenoids are ready!

Here's a video of the solenoids in action!  They sound hefty even before they are attached to a metal case which should add further impact!


Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2576 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 16:09:23 »
@rgleas:

"Not mx black, I use Alps SKCM Black switches. Good stuff though, I'll probably try out the stock 45g switches and see if I like it. Thanks!"

Sorry about mis-reading your post. Black Alps are, in the opinion of many, the worst Alps switch ever! Here is a composite of force-displacement curves for various Alps switches, including black:



Black Alps tend to feel rough compared to other Alps switches (provided all of them are in good to excellent condition).


Offline rgleas

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2577 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 22:35:51 »
The custom made solenoids are ready!

Here's a video of the solenoids in action!  They sound hefty even before they are attached to a metal case which should add further impact!


Awesome, wow are those big! Have you tested it out in a New Model F yet? I'm wondering if you'll need earplugs haha.

Offline rgleas

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2578 on: Sat, 25 July 2020, 00:32:51 »
I'd also be curious to see how you install it. I had to bend the metal bracket a tad bit to get the solenoid driver itself connected. I I screwed the driver into one of the extra holes in the corner opposite of the controller, and use a bit of super glue on the edges to keep it snug. Then the solenoid, just a little super glue. lol

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2579 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 15:12:10 »
USB-C Panel-Mount Connector Installed in my newest Ellipse F62 Keyboard:

For those who might be interested in installing a panel-mount USB-C connector in your standard-case F62 or F77 keyboard, I have posted an easy method with some pics in a new thread in the Workshop Section of Deskthority:

https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24286&p=468806#p468806


Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1267
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2580 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 21:51:55 »
USB-C Panel-Mount Connector Installed in my newest Ellipse F62 Keyboard:

For those who might be interested in installing a panel-mount USB-C connector in your standard-case F62 or F77 keyboard, I have posted an easy method with some pics in a new thread in the Workshop Section of Deskthority:

https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24286&p=468806#p468806



Thank you for sharing this guide Hypersphere!

Offline Vizir

  • Posts: 294
  • Location: Tulsa, OK
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2581 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:37:12 »
USB-C Panel-Mount Connector Installed in my newest Ellipse F62 Keyboard:

For those who might be interested in installing a panel-mount USB-C connector in your standard-case F62 or F77 keyboard, I have posted an easy method with some pics in a new thread in the Workshop Section of Deskthority:

https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24286&p=468806#p468806
Marked for reference. Thanks hypersphere!

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1267
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2582 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 13:10:59 »
Dye sublimation update:

The factory continues to work on dye sublimation and additional QC work on the second container shipment of the early bird round.  They succeeded with the actual sublimation this month (see nice sublimation quality example below) but need to work on optimizing the jig for proper alignment of all keys.  Essentially they make a test jig and then make another one, and do this as many times as needed (it is not inexpensive!).  Vertical alignment is consistent within tolerances for 7 of the 8 samples (except "S" - all legends need to be repositioned lower on the key tops of course), but horizontal alignment consistency in these samples is not yet acceptable.  I was hoping that they would be finished by now but they need more time. 

248122-0

As a note these new Model F legends are not Helvetica but a custom drawn font similar to Helvetica, as worked on by forum member Zed. Zed did an outstanding job matching the old IBM custom drawn fonts. darkcruix's example appears to be a unicomp cap which use the Helvetica font and not the old IBM fonts, to my knowledge.

The new production keys will be using a mix of the XT / F122 one piece key cap legends which are extra bold compared to Model M and Unicomp sets. The samples are a little too thick in the weighting I believe and the final ones should be a bit thinner.

Below are some high resolution scans of my F122 6110344 from 1984: what the new XT type caps should look like, compared to the samples.

As a note my original keys were scanned and narrowed by mistake during the editing, so they should be slightly wider than what is pictured.  Also the sizing is not accurate as it was just a quick sizing and stretching of the keys for the above image. These legends are an exact match in person to the size of the originals (but a little too thick in these sample tests), from the tests I have done.
248135-1
« Last Edit: Mon, 27 July 2020, 22:11:59 by Ellipse »

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2583 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 13:37:37 »
Yes, I certainly agree. Horizontal alignment is inconsistent and the legends are too high on the key. The weight of the font also seems too heavy -- i.e., the lines are too thick compared to the weighting on my XT keys., but perhaps this is an illusion.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1267
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2584 on: Tue, 28 July 2020, 14:25:53 »
Based on the excellent feedback so far I'm thinking of switching to QMK for keyboard shipments going forward, at least for now.  Everyone who has had an xwhatsit firmware issue and moved to QMK seems to have their issue resolved.

Offline darkcruix

  • Posts: 62
  • Location: Germany
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2585 on: Tue, 28 July 2020, 14:56:22 »
Now, that also the Solenoid is working, I think it is an awesome product.
I can imagine that some people will want a GUI and not a web page to configure the keyboard, but in my case - I moved every single xwhatsit controller over (also my two Beam Spring Keyboards).

Offline OxC0FFEE

  • Posts: 8
  • Location: United States
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2586 on: Wed, 29 July 2020, 15:49:01 »
Based on the excellent feedback so far I'm thinking of switching to QMK for keyboard shipments going forward, at least for now.  Everyone who has had an xwhatsit firmware issue and moved to QMK seems to have their issue resolved.

This sounds like a great plan. I've had good luck with QMK so far on a preonic, a romac, and a zlant. Looking forward to adding my new F77 to the roster of QMK boards.

Offline Pete

  • Posts: 58
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2587 on: Thu, 30 July 2020, 03:26:15 »
[dupe]
« Last Edit: Thu, 30 July 2020, 19:53:23 by Pete »

Offline bun

  • Posts: 28
  • Location: NZ
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2588 on: Thu, 30 July 2020, 05:58:06 »
I've been using my F62 for 3 weeks now so wanted to provide a small update.

All my initial issues resulting from springs not behaving due to heavy handed shippers were resolved within a couple of days by myself.

I ended up giving myself a crash course in completely disassembling and reassembling the keyboard and now have an intimate knowledge of the relationship between barrels, springs, flippers, controller, and removing and attaching the retention plate.

I've also had it draw blood thanks to being stabbed by the side connectors on the controller board. I can now immediately eyeball a spring that won't actuate when the key is attached which was something I was struggling with. Protip - If you can't get the spring attached with tweezers then try using a small flat toothpick, such as the one that comes with a swiss army knife, to hold the spring at one end and it'll go on super easy. Just remember to align the spring end correctly as per Ellipse's video. In fact, just watch these several times in a row before you unbox the thing in the first place.

Now that everything is dialled in it's an amazing keyboard. Highly recommended... I just need to purchase some more springs at some point because apparently my dexterity isn't quite what it used to be so i've killed 4 of them.

I'm considering buying another in the new year to keep in storage just in case.

Nice work Ellipse :)

Also, i'm interested in a solenoid purchase but i'm a bit in the dark about how it works and what's involved in connecting it... is there a "Model F Solenoid for dummies" page kicking around?

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1267
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2589 on: Thu, 30 July 2020, 12:34:27 »
Here's a great review on the ultra compact F77 keyboard from Level1Techs on YouTube.  Very thorough and professional!  I like how they explained everything clearly, introduced the xwhatsit configuration software, and showed how the stabilizer inserts work. 


There were some issues with the key in the 16th column but they were later able to fix it.

Thanks for your update bun.  Taking things apart is a great way to learn how they work!  Restoring these great old IBM keyboards is how I learned more about them and became more interested in them.

Regarding the solenoid:  yes feel free to check out the solenoid product page which I have updated with explanations, photos, videos, and instructions, as well as linking to xwhatsit's solenoid installation manual. 

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/xwhatsit-beam-spring-or-model-f-controller/

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1267
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2590 on: Thu, 30 July 2020, 15:40:17 »
I have created some QMK Model F layout files from pandrew's beta, based on the available layout options on the project web site - they are attached.

Would definitely appreciate a second look to make sure I didn't make any mistakes!

Offline rgleas

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2591 on: Mon, 03 August 2020, 11:15:32 »
@Hypersphere

So yeah, I got a hhkb 60% as my silent option. I tried typing on it solely for like the last 2 days or so. It's great at being quiet, however it has given me a great love for my Kischsaver... lol a much greater love and appreciation for it, as it's a 100 billion times better. lol

Cheers.

Offline raptorzoz

  • Posts: 97
  • Location: Germany
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2592 on: Mon, 03 August 2020, 17:11:16 »
hi I had a question regarding the statement on the website that this would be limited to one production run, is that still the case or did that change (The order page having been up for years now.) It would be awesome to see this become something perpetual in the same way that unicomp is still going after all these years. I'm a college student currently so I don't quite have the means to spend that amount on a keyboard, but once I do I will most definitely want to get one (if it is still in fact in production at that point.)

Offline pr0ximity

  • Posts: 2635
  • Location: Maine
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2593 on: Mon, 03 August 2020, 20:16:52 »
Do you also follow a particular guide for floss-modding in a systematic manner? I'll probably try floss-modding mine. (edit: nvm, just reading skcheng's guide)

edit 2: ordered me some o-rings and superfloss :)

I personally found Superfloss in my F107 had inconsistent results across the switches. It might have been my technique or the specifics of how my board was put together/how the plates were tensioned, but the length of the piece I cut seemed to have a significant results on neighboring switches, event when the pieces of floss differed only by a couple millimeters.

I did end up trying paracord core which is also referenced in some floss mod threads. I found that much easier to get a consistent result with -- I used individual strands of the core (there were something like 3-5 strands in the core braided together).
| Flickr | Current: Koala/Jaguar/GSKT-00-Z/JaneV2CE/Whale/Pro1/356mini/1390120/F107/3101

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1267
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2594 on: Mon, 03 August 2020, 23:40:39 »
New Model F Product Manual!

www.ModelFKeyboards.com/manual

This is an early draft of the product manual.  Iíd appreciate it if those reading through the manual can offer additional content and/or corrections if something is not clear.   You can email me or post additional paragraphs and sentences!  Please do not copy and paste content from anywhere else unless you receive permission and attribute the source.

It is aimed at helping owners of both the original keyboards as well as the reproductions.

It will help provide buckling spring owners (everyone from beginners to advanced users) with a central place to learn key re-seating, disassembly, spring replacement, changing the layout, etc.

Offline euphxenos

  • Posts: 326
  • Location: Fremont, CA, USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2595 on: Tue, 04 August 2020, 15:09:35 »
hi I had a question regarding the statement on the website that this would be limited to one production run, is that still the case or did that change (The order page having been up for years now.) It would be awesome to see this become something perpetual in the same way that unicomp is still going after all these years. I'm a college student currently so I don't quite have the means to spend that amount on a keyboard, but once I do I will most definitely want to get one (if it is still in fact in production at that point.)

The production run is split into an early bird round and a regular round.  We're still in the early bird round.  Ellipse received the first shipment of 1,349 keyboards (which represents part of the early bird round, not all of it) on 11/20/19.  So far, he's shipped about 400 of those keyboards.  Only keyboards with blank keycaps (or no keycaps) have been shipped so far.  Dye sub keycaps (ones with legends) are still being worked on, so none of the orders with legends on the keycaps have shipped yet.

How many years of school do you have left?  You can probably graduate before this finishes.

Offline raptorzoz

  • Posts: 97
  • Location: Germany
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2596 on: Wed, 05 August 2020, 06:45:58 »
hi I had a question regarding the statement on the website that this would be limited to one production run, is that still the case or did that change (The order page having been up for years now.) It would be awesome to see this become something perpetual in the same way that unicomp is still going after all these years. I'm a college student currently so I don't quite have the means to spend that amount on a keyboard, but once I do I will most definitely want to get one (if it is still in fact in production at that point.)

The production run is split into an early bird round and a regular round.  We're still in the early bird round.  Ellipse received the first shipment of 1,349 keyboards (which represents part of the early bird round, not all of it) on 11/20/19.  So far, he's shipped about 400 of those keyboards.  Only keyboards with blank keycaps (or no keycaps) have been shipped so far.  Dye sub keycaps (ones with legends) are still being worked on, so none of the orders with legends on the keycaps have shipped yet.

How many years of school do you have left?  You can probably graduate before this finishes.

I'm starting my bachelors, so almost five years, but I will be working during the summers so I'll prolly have the disposable income by next summer, since I will be working then, I'm thankful that it seems like there is at least a couple of years left, thank you for the info  :)

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2597 on: Thu, 06 August 2020, 17:30:47 »
@Hypersphere

So yeah, I got a hhkb 60% as my silent option. I tried typing on it solely for like the last 2 days or so. It's great at being quiet, however it has given me a great love for my Kischsaver... lol a much greater love and appreciation for it, as it's a 100 billion times better. lol

Cheers.
If that is the US version of "billion" then we are talking about the "Kishsaver" (are we talking about the F62 or the F77?) being 100 x 10^9 better than the HHKB. That's quite a large factor (on par with the number os stars in our galaxy and the number of neurons in the human brain)!

As for me, my F62 and my HHKB are like my children -- they are very different from each other, but I love them equally.

(I'm typing this on my Type-S HHKB Pro Hybrid; I wanted a change of pace from the F62, and I had a conference call today during which I silently typed notes.)


Offline Kavik

  • Posts: 808
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2598 on: Fri, 07 August 2020, 10:19:51 »
@Hypersphere

So yeah, I got a hhkb 60% as my silent option. I tried typing on it solely for like the last 2 days or so. It's great at being quiet, however it has given me a great love for my Kischsaver... lol a much greater love and appreciation for it, as it's a 100 billion times better. lol

Cheers.
If that is the US version of "billion" then we are talking about the "Kishsaver" (are we talking about the F62 or the F77?) being 100 x 10^9 better than the HHKB. That's quite a large factor (on par with the number os stars in our galaxy and the number of neurons in the human brain)!

As for me, my F62 and my HHKB are like my children -- they are very different from each other, but I love them equally.

(I'm typing this on my Type-S HHKB Pro Hybrid; I wanted a change of pace from the F62, and I had a conference call today during which I silently typed notes.)

Solution: HHKB F62 Hybrid in which the springs under the domes are buckling springs with flippers. Ha, that actually makes me shudder to think about.
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1267
  • Location: New York
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2599 on: Fri, 07 August 2020, 18:34:53 »
I have updated the organization of the new www.modelfkeyboards.com/manual page with sections that are by default minimized and expand when you click on it ("toggle switch").  This way one does not need to scroll through each section to get to the right one.