MX Browns: Almost linear?

[Ellimist]

Hello,

This is my first post on GH, but I'm a long-time lurker, from before I made my account. Anyway, this is the first time I have a proper mechanical keyboard with me, so I'm asking whether everybody feels the same. The first mechanical keyboard I used was around 6 months ago. I had bought an old (10 years+) MX blue keyboard, which felt weird to be honest. The actuation force was too low (maybe because the switches were old?), I had a lot of unwanted keystrokes registered while typing, and playing racing games was a pain because of the repeated keystrokes (left/right) not registering. I had a lot of typing to do at that time, so I turned back to by trusted Logitech Internet Pro. Anyway, I decided that blues weren't for me.

Now I have with me a Das Ultimate Silent. I wanted a Filco MJ2 Ninja Tenkeyless, but it was $200+ on Amazon and the Das Father's Day discount was too good to pass up. But now that I have it, I'm not happy with the brown switches. The brown's tactile bump is so imperceptible that I don't feel it at all while typing. I can feel it while pressing keys slowly, individually, but it doesn't seem like enough. I have had this for a week and I still have a lot of unregistered keystrokes.

Does it get better with time or am I stuck with this?

[nsrexler]

This is actually a pretty common complaint with Brown switches. They just aren't tactile enough for a lot of people.
I also had similar issues to you with regards to Blue and Brown switches feeling too light. I'd recommend you try Clear or Green switches, since those are significantly heavier and more tactile, although unfortunately they're relatively rare to find. You might also look into buckling springs.

[khaangaaroo]

It probably won't get any better if you've already been using it for a week. My suggestion would be to slow down a bit while typing and feel for the bump. I think browns are my least favorite MX switch. When I type fast on them, they kinda just feel like reds. But when I slow down, it's a lot more enjoyable. It's a nice change of pace.

[Ellimist]

Huh. I'm screwed then. I have no way of returning it because it was brought here from the US by my cousin who isn't going back for a couple of months. This was also a serious investment for me and I cannot afford another mechanical (still a student).

It probably won't get any better if you've already been using it for a week. My suggestion would be to slow down a bit while typing and feel for the bump. I think browns are my least favorite MX switch. When I type fast on them, they kinda just feel like reds. But when I slow down, it's a lot more enjoyable. It's a nice change of pace.

I was hoping to speed up my typing by using a mechanical. I used to type at around 60-80 WPM. Now, it's around 60 with lots of missed letters.

[Photoelectric]

I don't know if it's different batches or what, but out of like 11 or 12 keyboards with MX Browns that I've had or tested, none felt linear to me.  Reds and Blacks are purely linear--I can tell that difference.  Browns have a distinct bump.  It's light but it's there.  There's resistance when you push down that's more than just from the spring.  I can clearly feel it myself.

[Dubsgalore]

Coming from a heavy switch back to browns, they felt linear honestly. wayyy too light for me

[TimIsABat]

From my WASDkeyboard sampler kit, I felt the same thing with the brown switch. It felt more like a stuck switch. I am typing on reds now, and there is a slight resistance which I do like. For some reason though (it might be the positioning of my board) I do get a bit of soreness in my wrists. The clears (made them panda clears by switching the spring with MX blacks) were amazing to feel.

[Danule]

try typing on a red switch, you will be able to notice the difference.

[___q]

I sold my brown keyboard and got one with ergo clears (62g) for exactly this reason.

When trying to type quickly, browns felt like gritty linear switches, whereas ergo clears still feel "thunky".

[TimIsABat]

I sold my brown keyboard and got one with ergo clears (62g) for exactly this reason.

When trying to type quickly, browns felt like gritty linear switches, whereas ergo clears still feel "thunky".

How do ergo-clear's compare to a membrane board. I've read that they almost feel like you are typing on a membrane board just a bit better (for regular clears atleast). I am also curious with panda clears. I don't want to invest in switches if they feel like a basic membrane board.

[___q]

I sold my brown keyboard and got one with ergo clears (62g) for exactly this reason.

When trying to type quickly, browns felt like gritty linear switches, whereas ergo clears still feel "thunky".

How do ergo-clear's compare to a membrane board. I've read that they almost feel like you are typing on a membrane board just a bit better (for regular clears atleast). I am also curious with panda clears. I don't want to invest in switches if they feel like a basic membrane board.

Hmmm... the only membrane RD board I've used semi-recently was a stock Dell board that I used at work (before replacing it with a Topre several months ago).

These things are really hard to describe... regular clears feel a little squishy to me (since the stock spring is so heavy), I can see how you could compare them to a (really nice) RD.  Replacing the spring with a lighter one makes the tactility a lot more obvious, though, and ergo clears feel more like "quieter blues" or "more tactile browns" than "nice RD". I like the ergo clears way more than blues, but some of that may be placebo due to the build quality of the keyboards in question (a cheat vs a QFR).  Blues feel "clicky" and ergo clears feel "thunky" (and are slightly heavier), if that makes any sense -- the tactile point is longer.

[knotra]

the mx brown switches are relatively light compared to the other switches which can make it feel linear. I have the same board and I love it. then again I really enjoy typing on brown switches. I felt that they feel almost linear as well but it has that touch of tactile-ness that separates it from the mx reds.

i see that you said that you can't afford to get another keyboard and/or return this board but for future references, i would recommend a board with cherry mx clears. stronger tactile bump and a little bit heavier than the browns.

[TimIsABat]

I sold my brown keyboard and got one with ergo clears (62g) for exactly this reason.

When trying to type quickly, browns felt like gritty linear switches, whereas ergo clears still feel "thunky".

How do ergo-clear's compare to a membrane board. I've read that they almost feel like you are typing on a membrane board just a bit better (for regular clears atleast). I am also curious with panda clears. I don't want to invest in switches if they feel like a basic membrane board.

Hmmm... the only membrane RD board I've used semi-recently was a stock Dell board that I used at work (before replacing it with a Topre several months ago).

These things are really hard to describe... regular clears feel a little squishy to me (since the stock spring is so heavy), I can see how you could compare them to a (really nice) RD.  Replacing the spring with a lighter one makes the tactility a lot more obvious, though, and ergo clears feel more like "quieter blues" or "more tactile browns" than "nice RD". I like the ergo clears way more than blues, but some of that may be placebo due to the build quality of the keyboards in question (a cheat vs a QFR).  Blues feel "clicky" and ergo clears feel "thunky" (and are slightly heavier), if that makes any sense -- the tactile point is longer.

Awesome to know. Thanks to the easy customization of a Poker X, I might make ergo-clears if I have enough cash.

[Input Nirvana]

It's a bummer to not be happy with such a precise detail. And sometimes there is no single "perfect" solution, which can be crazy frustrating.

More than anything people need to try the keypad switch sampler with all the various switches. It gives the chance to actually type on about 3 keys of each switch. That will tell you 90%+ what switch you want. The second step is to type on a keyboard of that switch for a half hour/ couple hours, and that will take you 97%+, and finally typing on a keyboard for a week will take you to 100%. Unfortunately it's not a slam dunk for everybody.

[Grim Fandango]

try typing on a red switch, you will be able to notice the difference.

Coming from reds to browns, they did not feel linear at all, the tactile bump is just more subtle, but it is definitely there.

[nsrexler]

It's a bummer to not be happy with such a precise detail. And sometimes there is no single "perfect" solution, which can be crazy frustrating.

More than anything people need to try the keypad switch sampler with all the various switches. It gives the chance to actually type on about 3 keys of each switch. That will tell you 90%+ what switch you want. The second step is to type on a keyboard of that switch for a half hour/ couple hours, and that will take you 97%+, and finally typing on a keyboard for a week will take you to 100%. Unfortunately it's not a slam dunk for everybody.

This so much. So many times I've gotten a new keyboard and thought "This is the perfect switch!". Then a few hours later I think "I hate this switch", and then a week later I think "This switch is pretty good". The only exception is buckling springs, which I loved from the first moment I tried them.

[Techno Trousers]

You should try to get in on the Ultimate Switch Tester tour http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44880.0. Once you find your perfect switch (based on your OP, I predict you'll like MX Green), then you sell your MX blue and DAS keyboards, and buy one with the switches you really want. OR, if it's a custom switch you want, you mod a board to give you the feel you want.

Of course, you haven't tried ALPS switches yet...Nah, I won't go there.   

[berserkfan]

Since we're on the topic of discussing brown switches, can I ask if anyone has tried using black springs in browns? Does it make the browns more like clears? I'm thinking that theoretically that should be the case, and since I have difficulty finding clears (and no difficulty finding blacks) I'm planning to stick black springs in brown switches.

(I know CPTbadass and Ivan have both tried and don't like it, but would like to hear more views.)

[nsrexler]

Since we're on the topic of discussing brown switches, can I ask if anyone has tried using black springs in browns? Does it make the browns more like clears? I'm thinking that theoretically that should be the case, and since I have difficulty finding clears (and no difficulty finding blacks) I'm planning to stick black springs in brown switches.

(I know CPTbadass and Ivan have both tried and don't like it, but would like to hear more views.)

I've heard that it makes the switch feel even less tactile. Clears have a completely different stem than Browns.

[jabar]

I like linears, tactile and clicky MX switches. Browns just feel muddy to me. They're usable but not a real pleasure.

[___q]

Since we're on the topic of discussing brown switches, can I ask if anyone has tried using black springs in browns? Does it make the browns more like clears? I'm thinking that theoretically that should be the case, and since I have difficulty finding clears (and no difficulty finding blacks) I'm planning to stick black springs in brown switches.

(I know CPTbadass and Ivan have both tried and don't like it, but would like to hear more views.)

I've heard that it makes the switch feel even less tactile. Clears have a completely different stem than Browns.

Agreed -- adding a heavier switch to a stem makes it less tactile. I'm pretty sure browns-with-black-springs would just feel like slightly dirty black switches.

[Moosecraft]

For me personally there is a huge difference between red and brown switches, maybe I just have sensitive fingers..

[Ellimist]

Wow! So many replies. This is certainly a passionate community.

Unfortunately, where I live people are not too fussy about their keyboards and getting an MX green keyboard is next to impossible. I'll have to stick with MX browns for now, maybe bring out the blues since I seem to miss the tactility.

Signing up for the keyboard switch sampler is also not an option for me since I am not from the US. This Das keyboard is not half-bad, though. I'm really hoping I get more familiar with the feel of the switches.

On a dissimilar note, the backspace key squeaks when pressed using the right pinky. Is this normal considering the weird angle I'm pressing it from? It doesn't squeak when pressed normally.

[rowdy]

Yes, some keys can squeak, particularly those with stabilisers.

You can lube them to reduce the squeak.

[Input Nirvana]

Responding to a few posts (without quotes)

I have Kinesis Advantage keyboards, it's all I type with. I have them with browns or with reds. They feel very different to me. I also use o-rings with them. I type on browns because I think I like the soft tactile bump that tells me I've activated the key switch. Then I start using a board with reds and I think "This is sooooo smoooooth!". Then I go back to the browns and I think "I really like having the bump". I do this over and over and over and over......

You've got to try all the switches, or you'll probably be screwed a second time. And this process won't be fixed or decided by next week, it may take months. I'm still on this forum since 2009...
Maybe you can get this: one switch of each type, standard and modified. It's not the same as typing on a board, but if you're fussy...ya gotta scratch that itch baby! It sounds like an inconvenient hassle, but you use the keyboard A LOT, so it's worth it. It will really help you narrow it down. Maybe they can be mounted on a numpad to help get the feel. Heck, I would like to have one of each switch myself.

You really need to get what's right for you. It's important.

I've seen Kinesis boards with browns, reds, blues and ergo clears. Someone said they were going to put blacks in a Kinesis but I don't remember if that happened.

[nsrexler]

I type on browns because I think I like the soft tactile bump that tells me I've activated the key switch. Then I start using a board with reds and I think "This is sooooo smoooooth!". Then I go back to the browns and I think "I really like having the bump". I do this over and over and over and over......

This paragraph combined with your avatar made me think of a parrot running back and forth between two keyboards, pecking at the keys.

[rknize]

After using Model Ms for many many years, my first Cherry MX keyboard (Rosewill) also used brown switches.  I was quite unhappy with them and went on to other Cherry switches after that.  I settled on ergo-clears and ergo-whites as my favorite MX switches, but I have since come back to browns.  After lightly lubricating them to improve the grittiness of the stem movement, the tactile bump becomes more obvious.  They are still very light, but I can appreciate them for what they are and don't mind them at all. I have them on my G80 and Noppo Choc Mini.

It sounds to me like you'd appreciate a heavier switch, so a stock MX clear might be for you.

[TimIsABat]

After using Model Ms for many many years, my first Cherry MX keyboard (Rosewill) also used brown switches.  I was quite unhappy with them and went on to other Cherry switches after that.  I settled on ergo-clears and ergo-whites as my favorite MX switches, but I have since come back to browns.  After lightly lubricating them to improve the grittiness of the stem movement, the tactile bump becomes more obvious.  They are still very light, but I can appreciate them for what they are and don't mind them at all. I have them on my G80 and Noppo Choc Mini.

It sounds to me like you'd appreciate a heavier switch, so a stock MX clear might be for you.

What springs did you use on ergo-clears?

[Burz]

Wow! So many replies. This is certainly a passionate community.

Unfortunately, where I live people are not too fussy about their keyboards and getting an MX green keyboard is next to impossible. I'll have to stick with MX browns for now, maybe bring out the blues since I seem to miss the tactility.

Signing up for the keyboard switch sampler is also not an option for me since I am not from the US. This Das keyboard is not half-bad, though. I'm really hoping I get more familiar with the feel of the switches.

Yes, we are passionately something all right... perhaps deranged.

Every time one of these (quite common) complaints about MX switches is brooched, the GH Cherry Fanboi Committee comes in yammering about how you just haven't tried the right CHERRY switch yet, and you might have to swap springs or perform other backflips to find the right switches. Pages of breathless discussion will ensue without a hint that other key switch options exist.

Then, when you are at the end of that rope (where GH readers frequently find themselves), about 2/3 of 'CFBC' magically turn into the Topre Tabernacle Choir and start singing about how Topre (super expensive) switches can't be beat and 'you should buy one of the used $250 Topre boards I have sitting behind my desk because they are easy to resell, otherwise you'll never experience Topre heaven'.

If you want a nice tactile keyboard, consider the following vendors:

Lenovo (Thinkpad USB)
Dell (QuietKey)
Matias (TactilePro and QuietPro)
IBM/Unicomp (buckling spring Model M, Classic, etc.)

The first two are high-quality rubber dome tech, while the last two have time-tested mechanical designs that are known for having plenty of tactile feedback. Matias is the most expensive at $130-$150 while the rest should be $70 or less. IBM models are used, but seem sturdier than the new Unicomps.

Finally, if you are in Europe then check out the Deskthority site which may be a convenient way to find a buyer for your Cherry-based keyboard.

[rknize]

What springs did you use on ergo-clears?

Standard light Cherry springs (from MX blue/brown/red).

[rknize]

Yes, we are passionately something all right... perhaps deranged.

[unhelpful trolling]

If you want a nice tactile keyboard, consider the following vendors:

Lenovo (Thinkpad USB)
Dell (QuietKey)
Matias (TactilePro and QuietPro)
IBM/Unicomp (buckling spring Model M, Classic, etc.)

Well, that escalated quickly.  The OP was asking about MX...and specifically about browns.  Hence, the replies about them.  I don't see why all the bashing was necessary.  That said, you point out some nice alternatives.

The Matias uses Alps switches.  They are more tactile but have less travel than an MX switch.  They are heavier than browns and are well liked by most who have tried them.  If you want tactile...you can't beat a buckling spring.  They have some of the most satisfying tactility, but can be quite loud even when modded.  The M might be something you can find used locally, since they proliferated all over the world.

Good luck!

[Ellimist]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions.

If you want a nice tactile keyboard, consider the following vendors:

Lenovo (Thinkpad USB)
Dell (QuietKey)
Matias (TactilePro and QuietPro)
IBM/Unicomp (buckling spring Model M, Classic, etc.)

The first two are high-quality rubber dome tech, while the last two have time-tested mechanical designs that are known for having plenty of tactile feedback. Matias is the most expensive at $130-$150 while the rest should be $70 or less. IBM models are used, but seem sturdier than the new Unicomps.

Thanks, the first two seems to be available locally, so I'll definitely try them. I also remember playing Ceasar on a buckling spring keyboard when I was a kid, although I don't remember exactly how the keys felt. I think I might be able to obtain that keyboard from my cousin, if she hasn't sold it off. I know she doesn't use it now.

[guywithtwohands]

Having used both MX brown (Das Keyboard) and red switches (Steelseries 6g v2), I'll say that I don't feel that they are too similar. The red switches are completely linear, "smooth-feeling", whereas I can definitely feel the bump with the brown switches.

However, I do get your complaint about not really feeling it while typing. It is something I often have trouble with as well, and as such I end up bottoming out the keys a lot. I am looking into getting a board with blue switches, but I see you have ruled those out. Unfortunately, I have only ever used brown and red switches, so I'm afraid I only have this short post to share.

[Burz]

Well, that escalated quickly.  The OP was asking about MX...and specifically about browns.  Hence, the replies about them.  I don't see why all the bashing was necessary.

Weren't you just telling us about some home-made ergo-clear switches?

The OP was made within the context of finding a nice tactile keyboard. Many threads have been started this way over the years I've been reading GH, and unfortunately they often also evolved in such a blinkered, self-indulgent fashion.

Its the fanboi-ism that is the least helpful thing here.

[Belfong]

Sorry for bring this thread up but I'm interested in trying Brown. Can I conclude that brown is blue minus the clicky? Is it as tactile as a blue? I've used blue and love it but hate blacks. I brown is as linear as this thread implies ie a black equivalent, I'll pass.

[PointyFox]

Sorry for bring this thread up but I'm interested in trying Brown. Can I conclude that brown is blue minus the clicky? Is it as tactile as a blue? I've used blue and love it but hate blacks. I brown is as linear as this thread implies ie a black equivalent, I'll pass.

No and no.  They're more similar to MX Red, but with a light bump at the actuation point instead of a hard click like MX blue.  Browns take similar force to fully depress as reds.  Blues need higher force.

[Belfong]

Since I've not tried reds, how does it compare to blacks? Black is harder than red so brown would be much lighter than, right?

[metalliqaz]

I think browns are the best of Cherry's stock switches.  they are very light and fast with just enough bump to let you know you've hit it

[TheSoulhunter]

Try clears, perhaps with 62g or 65g springs...

[PointyFox]

Since I've not tried reds, how does it compare to blacks? Black is harder than red so brown would be much lighter than, right?

Not really.  It's 45cN vs 65cN force.  So they're about 30% lighter than blacks.  Not much of a difference but enough to cushion it a little.

[kuschl0n]

I'm having the same "problem" as the OP. At first I assumed it's because I'm currently using a recently acquired 1994 IBM Model M whose buckling spring switches are way more resistant than the MX Brown switch I acquired as a part of a testing kit. And indeed, after a week of using only my laptop's rubber dome keyboard, the MX Brown switch felt considerably less linear, but still not tactile enough. But still: They're way better than my (high quality) Lenovo RD keyboard and my old (and thoroughly [ab]used) Logitech G15, probably better than any rubber dome.

I often read that clears and greens are more tactile, but they're quite hard to find. Especially if you live in Europe, the place all the good mecha keyboard manufacturers usually avoid due to the large number of different (and I mean really different layouts).

[Tony]

You have to type lighter, your fingers must be almost dancing on the keyboard instead of punching the keys.

If your fingers cannot type lightly at 45g, the bump is not easily felt. If so, you can try black and clear.

[kuschl0n]

You have to type lighter, your fingers must be almost dancing on the keyboard instead of punching the keys.

If your fingers cannot type lightly at 45g, the bump is not easily felt. If so, you can try black and clear.

I tried Black, didn't like it at all. (I have a switch testing kit right here, with a red, black, blue and brown switch mounted on a small PCB.)

I tend to type quite light on my RDs, but sadly I don't have a full keyboard with MX Browns to test. When I use my Model M I always feel the need to somehow punch the keys. It must be that insanely strong switch resistance, I suppose. I'd like to try clear and green switches, but I don't know where to get those switches in Europe (Germany).

Reminds me of a friend of mine: He is a real "key puncher", and he honestly didn't feel any difference between MX Reds, Blacks, Blues and Browns. Maybe the years of his HTML "hacking" finally begin taking their toll. )

[PointyFox]

I would disagree that greens are more tactile than blue.  Most of the tactility comes from the click, which has the same force differential for both green and blue.  Since you're exerting more force right before the click with the green, the tactility is less noticeable since the force from the click compared to the force already being exerted is smaller than that of the blue switches.  I liked them less than blue as a result.  Less tactile and slightly more force required to press them. 

[metalliqaz]

I would disagree that greens are more tactile than blue.  Most of the tactility comes from the click, which has the same force differential for both green and blue.  Since you're exerting more force right before the click with the green, the tactility is less noticeable since the force from the click compared to the force already being exerted is smaller than that of the blue switches.  I liked them less than blue as a result.  Less tactile and slightly more force required to press them.

But the perception is more tactile probably because of the heavy spring. Also seems to click more. Could be all in your head but like I said, its the perception

[TheSoulhunter]

I'd like to try clear and green switches, but I don't know where to get those switches in Europe (Germany).

7bit at DT runs a GB...
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html

[daerid]

Clears FTW

[kuschl0n]

I'd like to try clear and green switches, but I don't know where to get those switches in Europe (Germany).

7bit at DT runs a GB...
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html

Thank you! 

[abdulmuhsee]

Why not just stick with your rubber dome keyboard?  From the sounds of it, you were doing fine typing on your Logitech.  Problems only cropped up after you tried a mechanical keyboard, twice, and with different switches no less.

I wouldn't throw money at yet another mechanical keyboard when ample experience has already shown you that you type best on your rubber dome.  I'd say either try to get used to the board(s) you have or just try not to buy into the mechanical keyboard hype.

[Pacifist]

Where can I get a white backlit board with clears?

thanks