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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: KaminKevCrew on Sun, 16 August 2015, 20:52:48

Title: Titanium Case?
Post by: KaminKevCrew on Sun, 16 August 2015, 20:52:48
Has anyone made a titanium keyboard case before? I think I might try one sometime, and I was just wondering if anyone's done that yet. I think it would look pretty cool, especially if it had a matte burnt look.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 16 August 2015, 21:06:50
Try one?  Like mill one out yourself?
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 16 August 2015, 21:16:40
The closest I have possibly seen is Mkawa's smallfry boards, but those are just a switch plate, standoffs, and a bottom plate.  Look up prices on blocks of titanium and you will see one reason why people haven't done it yet.  This is on top of the difficulty of machining titanium vs steel or aluminum.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 16 August 2015, 21:20:47
Checked a quick price from mcmastercarr.com, and 1"x3"x12" in titanium would cost about $240 + shipping.  This wouldn't even get you close to being able to mill out a keyboard case.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: heedpantsnow on Sun, 16 August 2015, 21:50:01
Yeah, and that's the cost before milling. And milling Ti is crazy expensive.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Halverson on Sun, 16 August 2015, 21:55:28
Titanium spacebars alone were $100. I miss mine, it was awesome.
Sometimes I still think how cool a set would be with Ti bar/mods and scar face for the rest of the caps.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Photekq on Sun, 16 August 2015, 21:59:14
Yeah, hammer crew in China made some titanium 60% cases.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: KaminKevCrew on Sun, 16 August 2015, 22:00:57
Yeah, and that's the cost before milling. And milling Ti is crazy expensive.
My uncle has really nice machining stuff at his place. I literally only need the materials, and maybe a couple of tungsten bits. Other than that, I'd be able to do it pretty much for free. That certainly is expensive though.

Is Tungsten any cheaper than Ti?
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 16 August 2015, 22:07:01
Yeah, and that's the cost before milling. And milling Ti is crazy expensive.
My uncle has really nice machining stuff at his place. I literally only need the materials, and maybe a couple of tungsten bits. Other than that, I'd be able to do it pretty much for free. That certainly is expensive though.

Is Tungsten any cheaper than Ti?

You can't mill tungsten.  It is to hard.  It is generally shaped with grinding.

With the amount of material you would need to remove, unless he has one HELL of a setup, including flood coolant and possibly cnc, and a lot of experience with titanium, you are going to need more than a couple bits.  It would not be out of the realm of feasibility that cutters will cost more than the material for someone not experienced with milling titanium.

And the cost is based on weight of the material, so as dimensions increase at a linear rate, cost goes up at a cubic rate.

http://www.tmstitanium.com/products/online-catalog/3-00-4-00-grade-5-6al-4v-block/titanium-block-6al-4v-gr-5-3-0-thk-x-12-x-7-5/

Edit:  Not trying to say you can't do it.  Just trying to make you aware of the real costs associated with it.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: fknraiden on Sun, 16 August 2015, 22:18:53
i think a edox case would be sick.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: KaminKevCrew on Sun, 16 August 2015, 22:22:48


You can't mill tungsten.  It is to hard.  It is generally shaped with grinding.

With the amount of material you would need to remove, unless he has one HELL of a setup, including flood coolant and possibly cnc, and a lot of experience with titanium, you are going to need more than a couple bits.  It would not be out of the realm of feasibility that cutters will cost more than the material for someone not experienced with milling titanium.

And the cost is based on weight of the material, so as dimensions increase at a linear rate, cost goes up at a cubic rate.

http://www.tmstitanium.com/products/online-catalog/3-00-4-00-grade-5-6al-4v-block/titanium-block-6al-4v-gr-5-3-0-thk-x-12-x-7-5/

Edit:  Not trying to say you can't do it.  Just trying to make you aware of the real costs associated with it.
hmmm... Sounds like I'd probably be in for closer to $1000 then... And that's a bit more than I'd like to spend on my first real keyboard case... Maybe one day I'll check interest and do a run of five or so, but that day is a long ways off.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 17 August 2015, 07:41:15
There would be awesome cred in talking about titanium, but why go through the heartache?

The huge advantage is its lighter weight, but an additional pound is not a bad thing for a keyboard unless you carry it around regularly.

Aluminum is a great material and stainless would be even better. Factoring in machine work, you could probably do silver for a comparable price to titanium.

Personally, I would like a textured surface, whatever you call it when it sits in a bath of vibrating abrasives, and would avoid any glossy surface because it never looks good for more than a few minutes/hours at a time.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Joey Quinn on Mon, 17 August 2015, 10:10:57
Yeah, hammer crew in China made some titanium 60% cases.
Anyone have pictures of them?
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: heedpantsnow on Mon, 17 August 2015, 10:33:50
Ti is amazing for geek cred, but how much lighter is it than aluminum?
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: jbondeson on Mon, 17 August 2015, 11:07:39
Ti is amazing for geek cred, but how much lighter is it than aluminum?

Titanium is 1.5x heavier than Aluminum, but also 2-3x as strong (depending on which aluminum alloy you're talking about).

Frankly using titanium for a case seems bonkers. If you want a strong, light metal case go for the stronger aluminum alloys of 7075 or even 7068 (7068 can hit the strength of softer steels).
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Photekq on Mon, 17 August 2015, 12:27:32
Yeah, hammer crew in China made some titanium 60% cases.
Anyone have pictures of them?
(http://i.imgur.com/YodPevo.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/iFmN5yo.png)
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: ctm on Mon, 17 August 2015, 14:52:22
Just curious, why do people want titanium case? I think aluminium cases are already solid enough and also lighter than titanium.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 17 August 2015, 14:53:14
Just curious, why do people want titanium case? I think aluminium cases are already solid enough and also lighter than titanium.

The same reason I'd like an Inconel case. 'Cause maximum material swag.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 17 August 2015, 14:54:24
Just curious, why do people want titanium case? I think aluminium cases are already solid enough and also lighter than titanium.

Couple reasons actually.

The geek cred of titanium.

It has a unique look.

Just curious, why do people want titanium case? I think aluminium cases are already solid enough and also lighter than titanium.

The same reason I'd like an Inconel case. 'Cause maximum material swag.

I wonder what a block big enough to mill a TKL case would cost?
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 17 August 2015, 14:56:25
The same reason I'd like an Inconel case. 'Cause maximum material swag.

I wonder what a block big enough to mill a TKL case would cost?

One Brazillion dollars :(.

I would love to know that myself. And I wonder how much the machinery and setup would be for a small shop to take a crack at it. The bits to make chips probably aren't cheap.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 17 August 2015, 15:15:00

The geek cred of titanium.


Nothing but Model F guts would even be worthy to go into such an enclosure.

Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: jbondeson on Mon, 17 August 2015, 15:15:52
You planning on strapping you keyboard to a jet engine CPT?

The same reason I'd like an Inconel case. 'Cause maximum material swag.

I wonder what a block big enough to mill a TKL case would cost?

I just had to look this up...

@ ~$30/lb you're looking at just north of $600 for a 14"x5"x1" block of Inconel 718. Now I don't think you could get a block that small, but hey the scrap goes for north of $4/lb! so save those turnings!
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: KaminKevCrew on Mon, 17 August 2015, 15:33:22
You planning on strapping you keyboard to a jet engine CPT?

The same reason I'd like an Inconel case. 'Cause maximum material swag.

I wonder what a block big enough to mill a TKL case would cost?
That's tempting... especially since I'm mainly interested in 60% at the moment...
I just had to look this up...

@ ~$30/lb you're looking at just north of $600 for a 14"x5"x1" block of Inconel 718. Now I don't think you could get a block that small, but hey the scrap goes for north of $4/lb! so save those turnings!
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 17 August 2015, 15:35:08
You planning on strapping you keyboard to a jet engine CPT?

The same reason I'd like an Inconel case. 'Cause maximum material swag.

I wonder what a block big enough to mill a TKL case would cost?

I just had to look this up...

@ ~$30/lb you're looking at just north of $600 for a 14"x5"x1" block of Inconel 718. Now I don't think you could get a block that small, but hey the scrap goes for north of $4/lb! so save those turnings!

Yes that is my plan :cool:. Thanks for sharing the pricing haha.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: jbondeson on Mon, 17 August 2015, 15:47:19
Yes that is my plan :cool:. Thanks for sharing the pricing haha.

I just found an online supplier that has Inconel 718 equivalent sheets (unfortunately only up to 1/8"), and they're at $48-55/lb so let's just double that and go with $1200.  :eek:

Edit: Yeah, round stock is significantly cheaper at $33/lb from the same supplier, and that's where I got my first number from.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 17 August 2015, 16:12:48
If you really want a titanium case, you should engineer it to properly make use of the materials strengths.

Aluminum works well in machining operations because it's easy to mill, and it's softness requires more material/support. Titanium is more of a hardened steel and works better as thin tubing or welded plates and not so much as a machined chunk. Can you machine it from a chunk, yes, of course, however price will be insane, especially when you consider more than 90% of it will end up as scrap. You do not need the walls or bottom to be as thick as aluminum, it's not an efficient use of the material, it's properties, or your money. A better option for a titanium keyboard is either make it from welded plates of titanium, or cast it, either method results in far less waste. You could even weld plates or make a casting, then machine it, again generating far less scrap (casting then machining is what Vortex does for their aluminum cases). Another interesting option is weld small diameter tubes of it together, building a cage for a case (look at race car tube chassis for inspiration).

Unfortunately, casting it is probably beyond most peoples ability, and  unless you know someone who regularly welds Titanium, that's not so much a good option as welding Titanium is difficult, it becomes contaminated easily making for a very weak weld. Then again, for what Titanium costs, finding a welder capable of it is probably cheaper than any other method. My advice would be to just have a tub made from sheet titanium, then drill it and make standoffs and such from plastic or aluminum rather than trying to make it entirely from Titanium. I would also advocate having some done in steel first, because if you get it wrong, it's gonna hurt.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Joey Quinn on Mon, 17 August 2015, 17:24:29
Yeah, hammer crew in China made some titanium 60% cases.
Anyone have pictures of them?
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/YodPevo.png)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/iFmN5yo.png)


How much did they cost?
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Data on Mon, 17 August 2015, 18:31:43
Titanium is great, but I'm holding out for depleted uranium.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: alienman82 on Mon, 17 August 2015, 21:29:09
removed.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Herothereu on Mon, 17 August 2015, 21:31:20
Flammable!
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: ConscienceDrop on Mon, 17 August 2015, 23:12:31

The geek cred of titanium.


Nothing but Model F guts would even be worthy to go into such an enclosure.

I'm just thinking about the cost of milling an actual model F housing from a solid block of titanium and its probably approaching the cost of a mid range car, and that's assuming you would not need someone to make the dimensions custom.

you could obviously cut it in a way that the scraps could be reused to recoup some costs but yea. up front investment would be insane.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: alienman82 on Mon, 17 August 2015, 23:24:31
removed.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: ConscienceDrop on Tue, 18 August 2015, 00:41:33
A filco (reference tkl) is 14 x 5.3 x 1.3 inches or 96.46 cubic inches.  Now just some quick math here (without the cost of machining considered), the cost per cubic inch is around $4 judging by this website:

http://www.tmstitanium.com/products/online-catalog/3-00-4-00-grade-5-6al-4v-block/titanium-block-6al-4v-gr-5-3-25-thk-x-4-6-x-22-8/ (http://www.tmstitanium.com/products/online-catalog/3-00-4-00-grade-5-6al-4v-block/titanium-block-6al-4v-gr-5-3-25-thk-x-4-6-x-22-8/)

It's expensive, but not too bad considering it's titanium.  Now I don't know much about grades or anything, but there may be someway to make a titanium case for a "reasonable" price.

well making a titanium case with small pieces screwed together and milling a model f out of a solid giant piece are different stories.
I don't think they sell large titanium blocks by weight.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 18 August 2015, 01:10:08
A filco (reference tkl) is 14 x 5.3 x 1.3 inches or 96.46 cubic inches.  Now just some quick math here (without the cost of machining considered), the cost per cubic inch is around $4 judging by this website:

http://www.tmstitanium.com/products/online-catalog/3-00-4-00-grade-5-6al-4v-block/titanium-block-6al-4v-gr-5-3-25-thk-x-4-6-x-22-8/ (http://www.tmstitanium.com/products/online-catalog/3-00-4-00-grade-5-6al-4v-block/titanium-block-6al-4v-gr-5-3-25-thk-x-4-6-x-22-8/)

It's expensive, but not too bad considering it's titanium.  Now I don't know much about grades or anything, but there may be someway to make a titanium case for a "reasonable" price.

well making a titanium case with small pieces screwed together and milling a model f out of a solid giant piece are different stories.
I don't think they sell large titanium blocks by weight.

That is ultimately how any raw metal gets priced out at.  There is going to be a mark up for individual blocks like that.  But it is all priced out per pound. 
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: PrinsPils on Tue, 18 August 2015, 05:30:48
I love titanium, a TKL keyboard case would be so amazing. But the price would be redonkulous
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Dark_wizzie on Tue, 18 August 2015, 05:59:21
Hello Teengeek, we meet again!

I've never seen titanium keyboard before. Not sure what it'll look like either.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: KaminKevCrew on Tue, 18 August 2015, 06:09:15
Hello Teengeek, we meet again!

I've never seen titanium keyboard before. Not sure what it'll look like either.
So we do! Salutations!
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 18 August 2015, 07:15:15
It might not be unreasonable to look at a cast aluminum case with a top surface skin of titanium a couple of mm thick.

And for quadruple the cost you might be able to turn down around the edges a few mm.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: alienman82 on Tue, 18 August 2015, 08:04:47
removed.
Title: Re: Titanium Case?
Post by: Data on Tue, 18 August 2015, 13:11:46
You could probably do a layered-style case from laser or water jet-cut plates for much cheaper than a milled block of titanium.

It would probably be several hundred dollars instead of several thousand.   :p