Author Topic: Small ergonomic keyboard  (Read 8760 times)

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Offline OverKill

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Small ergonomic keyboard
« on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 23:09:34 »
Hi all,

Just wanted to share my project. I was in the market for a ergonomic mech for appx. $100. Of course there isnt anything available so after seeing how keyboards worked and what i needed i decided to try it out. Obviously doing R&D for $100 is going to be tough but that adds to the challenge. Here is my first layout. I lasercut a manilla folder and it held the keys better then i expected. I put a thin piece of foam underneath to keep the keys from scratching the desk. It would probably work even better with a thick piece of non corrugated cardboard. I think i will try that next.

The angle of the keys is 25 degrees with standard spacing. Things i am changing are the top two keys and shifting the thumb buttons down and more toward the palm. I am going to add another thumb button for a total of three and i am also adding one more button for the pinky. I will update the thread as i make changes.



Offline Melvang

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 23:31:17 »
Looking good so far.  Now just need to get a teensy and write the firmware
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Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 23:35:40 »
 Have a teensy 3.1 already but need to write the firmware still :). I am putting that off a bit because im not sure if i am going to keep thw qwerty layout or change it up a bit. Plus with keys moving around right now i would constantly be changing the matrix in the firmware.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 23:41:05 »
Would only need to change the firmware if you move where they keys are in the matrix not the physical position.  But either way I would probably wait as well. 

When you say layout change are you contemplating a move to something like Dvorak or Colemak?  I don't want to start a big war about the efficiences of those but both are leaps and bounds above qwerty.  From what I have read Dvorak seems to favor alternating between hands and Colemak seems to favor rolls.  And Dvorak is a larger deviation from qwerty than colemak is so it might be easier to keep your qwerty muscle memory better by using dvorak with a different physical layout at the same time if you use a standard qwerty board at work.
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Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 06 April 2014, 00:12:17 »
By changing the layout I mean that I am trying to put as few buttons as I can on the keyboard. My reasoning for this is that 1) Less keys = less cost, 2) the less you need to strain any finger the more ergonomic it is. My goal is to make it so that the keys are laid out to where you do not need to stretch any finger for any key whatsoever. I want to add additional layers for any F buttons, symbols, keypad, etc. I use the keypad on my keyboard every day for part numbers and math and whatever else so having a keypad on another layer or having a number pad is a big deal for me. The numbers on the top row (for me) are pretty useless since I hardly ever use them unless I am typing 2 or 3 digits which is never the case for part numbers.

In terms of the dvorak or Colmak layout I do want to try them one day but I think I am going to start with either leaving qwerty as it is, or doing a modified qwerty to fit the board. The reason I want to do this is because I already know qwerty, I am going to be learning a whole new layout of keys anyway as well as switching from a staggered layout to a non-staggered layout which will be a huge change in itself as well. One less new thing to learn.

But why would I need to do a modified qwerty you might ask? Well my original idea came from the alphabet. There are 26 letters in the alphabet which is 13 letters per hand. You generally use 3 rows so that is 4 keys per row at 3 rows plus one extra (probably middle finger on a 4th row, since that seems to be the most comfy with the current layout). So theoretically all you would need is 26 switches, plus a few layer buttons, space, backspace, shift, alt, capslock. That is my theory anyway, we will see how it pans out over time or I may decide that that was a completely stupid idea in about a week and do something more standard.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 06 April 2014, 00:16:41 »
I recommend starting with a Teensy 2.0 or similar microcontroller, and using Hasu’s tmk_keyboard firmware. It does a lot of useful stuff out of the box.

If you use an ARM chip like the one on the Teensy 3.1, you’ll probably have to do more work to get something working how you want it.

Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 06 April 2014, 00:22:14 »
I recommend starting with a Teensy 2.0 or similar microcontroller, and using Hasu’s tmk_keyboard firmware. It does a lot of useful stuff out of the box.

If you use an ARM chip like the one on the Teensy 3.1, you’ll probably have to do more work to get something working how you want it.

Yea I realized that after I bought the 3.1. I had a co worker talk me into the 3.1 instead of the 2.0 but he is a programmer so it isn't really an issue for him and being a naïve little hardware noob I listened to him. The nice part about the 3.1 is that there is a keyboard/keypad library available that I can use which has layer functionality already in it as well as the matrix is already in there you just need to change the size of it and change it to be the correct layout. It will be slightly more work but at this point that is all the functionality that I am looking for.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 06 April 2014, 01:02:11 »
Yeah, you *can* program what you want with the Teensy 3.0/3.1. But using Hasu’s firmware will get you something that has been tested much more, has a lot of useful features, and is very easy to do relatively sophisticated stuff with.

If you have very simple needs, your method will be okay probably. Or if you have very complex features that Hasu’s firmware doesn’t include (e.g. runtime macro recording), you might need to write your own firmware from scratch anyway.

But for the general case, I’d recommend just buying a Teensy 2.0 (or a $6 chinese Arduino Micro clone from ebay) and using tmk_keyboard. This well get you up and running fast, and let you set your keyboard up the way you want it, and make sure that you don’t end up with dropped keystrokes, duplicate keystrokes, etc. (all the simple bugs have already been fixed).

You can then play around with the Teensy 3.1 at a more leisurely pace, while you get to actually use your keyboard to type on in the mean time. The Teensy 3 is a much more powerful chip, so if you go on to work on more sophisticated electronics projects, I’m sure you’ll be able to find a use for it.

Basically, I’d recommend trying to make the hardware/programming side as simple as possible, so that you can test and iterate on your physical layout. Once you have the physical layout figured out, come back and reimplement a new keyboard firmware from scratch if you want.
« Last Edit: Sun, 06 April 2014, 01:03:54 by jacobolus »

Offline technomancy

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 07 April 2014, 18:24:33 »
Very cool design. It looks somewhat similar to my Atreus design (https://github.com/technomancy/atreus) but wider and shorter. It sounds like with the modifications you're making you want to bring up the number of keys to 44? I think that's a good idea; mine has 42 keys, and one or two more would come in handy; I definitely couldn't be very productive doing programming with less than 42. Three seems to be about the optimal number of thumb keys for each side. I have four on each side on mine, but reaching the furthest is quite a stretch.

I ended up spending about US$112 on materials for my board, (not including shipping) but I found later that you can get the switches more cheaply at mechanicalkeyboards.com. I would encourage you to consider making a laser-cut case. The case for my Atreus cost $11 in materials and $22 in laser cutting time, but that was in acrylic. If you use wood, it could be substantially cheaper. And I found Inkscape surprisingly easy to use for the task of designing a case; I have no design background at all and was able to put together this in only a few hours: http://p.hagelb.org/case.svg

I am also in the process of writing my own firmware. While the Teensy 3 is a ton more powerful than the 2, having to wait till your firmware is done before you can play with the board sounds like a big bummer. I've been working on mine for nearly twice as long as it took for me to put the physical hardware of the board together, and it's still got a ways to go. But that could be because I'm pretty new to Forth and C, and my firmware is pretty unconventional.

Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 07 April 2014, 23:13:43 »
Very cool design. It looks somewhat similar to my Atreus design (https://github.com/technomancy/atreus) but wider and shorter. It sounds like with the modifications you're making you want to bring up the number of keys to 44? I think that's a good idea; mine has 42 keys, and one or two more would come in handy; I definitely couldn't be very productive doing programming with less than 42. Three seems to be about the optimal number of thumb keys for each side. I have four on each side on mine, but reaching the furthest is quite a stretch.

I ended up spending about US$112 on materials for my board, (not including shipping) but I found later that you can get the switches more cheaply at mechanicalkeyboards.com. I would encourage you to consider making a laser-cut case. The case for my Atreus cost $11 in materials and $22 in laser cutting time, but that was in acrylic. If you use wood, it could be substantially cheaper. And I found Inkscape surprisingly easy to use for the task of designing a case; I have no design background at all and was able to put together this in only a few hours: http://p.hagelb.org/case.svg

I am also in the process of writing my own firmware. While the Teensy 3 is a ton more powerful than the 2, having to wait till your firmware is done before you can play with the board sounds like a big bummer. I've been working on mine for nearly twice as long as it took for me to put the physical hardware of the board together, and it's still got a ways to go. But that could be because I'm pretty new to Forth and C, and my firmware is pretty unconventional.

I am not sure how many buttons I am going to end up with. What two buttons do you wish you had? The next version of the board is taller but should be about the same width.

I bought 100 switches from MK for like 50 bucks and the keycaps were 45 including shipping (which surprised me I had no idea they were so god damn expensive) and 28 for the teensy 3.1. As for the case I have access to a laser so I just have to buy the material. Once I get it working I will either make a second and probably try to sell it to recoup the cost of the items or I will build another keyboard and keep it (one home, one work). Not sure how the wife will react to something "not standard" though :) 

As for the programming I am not sure why everybody keeps saying it is complicated. Once I figured out what went where and how to program the teensy (maybe an hour or two?) I went to the site, downloaded the library, loaded it on to the teensy and used a wire to to hook up the various IO's to each other and I got the output that it was supposed to in windows. The thing even had layers already in it. The only issue is probably going to be adding more layers since I am not sure how to do that yet and that might be the "complicated" piece. Seems pretty darn easy to me but hey I am not a programmer.

Offline technomancy

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 08 April 2014, 12:39:27 »
I am not sure how many buttons I am going to end up with. What two buttons do you wish you had? The next version of the board is taller but should be about the same width.

Actually since I added dash and slash to the default layer I feel like I have enough. If I had a couple more I would probably add pageup/pagedown. Though while I'm dreaming the thing I'd most want to add is a scroll wheel; that would be perfect.

As for the programming I am not sure why everybody keeps saying it is complicated. Once I figured out what went where and how to program the teensy (maybe an hour or two?) I went to the site, downloaded the library, loaded it on to the teensy and used a wire to to hook up the various IO's to each other and I got the output that it was supposed to in windows. The thing even had layers already in it. The only issue is probably going to be adding more layers since I am not sure how to do that yet and that might be the "complicated" piece. Seems pretty darn easy to me but hey I am not a programmer.

Yeah, it's probably not so bad if you don't mind C and stick with the PJRC USB stack. On the #geekhack channel on freenode they were advising against the PJRC stack, but I don't remember why. I really don't want to write my firmware in C, so I'm learning and implementing Forth instead, which is taking a lot longer. But I don't mind since I can just use the TMK firmware in the mean time.

I bought 100 switches from MK for like 50 bucks and the keycaps were 45 including shipping (which surprised me I had no idea they were so god damn expensive) and 28 for the teensy 3.1. As for the case I have access to a laser so I just have to buy the material. Once I get it working I will either make a second and probably try to sell it to recoup the cost of the items or I will build another keyboard and keep it (one home, one work). Not sure how the wife will react to something "not standard" though :)

Ah, too bad you already spent that much on the caps. If you end up building a second board you should get them from Signature Plastics: http://keyshop.pimpmykeyboard.com/product/dsa-pbt-blank-sets Having access to a laser would definitely help though; that ended up being ~20% of the cost for mine. Plus it would let you iterate on designs cheaply; if you want to experiment it's not a big deal throwing away a previous cut that didn't work out.

I've had a couple people ask me to make them some boards once I showed off mine, so I bet you could probably sell a second or third if you made one.

Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 08 April 2014, 22:29:38 »
I am not sure how many buttons I am going to end up with. What two buttons do you wish you had? The next version of the board is taller but should be about the same width.

Actually since I added dash and slash to the default layer I feel like I have enough. If I had a couple more I would probably add pageup/pagedown. Though while I'm dreaming the thing I'd most want to add is a scroll wheel; that would be perfect.

As for the programming I am not sure why everybody keeps saying it is complicated. Once I figured out what went where and how to program the teensy (maybe an hour or two?) I went to the site, downloaded the library, loaded it on to the teensy and used a wire to to hook up the various IO's to each other and I got the output that it was supposed to in windows. The thing even had layers already in it. The only issue is probably going to be adding more layers since I am not sure how to do that yet and that might be the "complicated" piece. Seems pretty darn easy to me but hey I am not a programmer.

Yeah, it's probably not so bad if you don't mind C and stick with the PJRC USB stack. On the #geekhack channel on freenode they were advising against the PJRC stack, but I don't remember why. I really don't want to write my firmware in C, so I'm learning and implementing Forth instead, which is taking a lot longer. But I don't mind since I can just use the TMK firmware in the mean time.

I bought 100 switches from MK for like 50 bucks and the keycaps were 45 including shipping (which surprised me I had no idea they were so god damn expensive) and 28 for the teensy 3.1. As for the case I have access to a laser so I just have to buy the material. Once I get it working I will either make a second and probably try to sell it to recoup the cost of the items or I will build another keyboard and keep it (one home, one work). Not sure how the wife will react to something "not standard" though :)

Ah, too bad you already spent that much on the caps. If you end up building a second board you should get them from Signature Plastics: http://keyshop.pimpmykeyboard.com/product/dsa-pbt-blank-sets Having access to a laser would definitely help though; that ended up being ~20% of the cost for mine. Plus it would let you iterate on designs cheaply; if you want to experiment it's not a big deal throwing away a previous cut that didn't work out.

I've had a couple people ask me to make them some boards once I showed off mine, so I bet you could probably sell a second or third if you made one.

Yea it is 18 for the base set then another 18 for the modifier keys so the cheapest it could have been would have been 36 + shipping, I figured for 4 or 5 dollars more I could get something other then black. Not really sure why I chose blue and orange but whatever :).

I am not sure why people are getting discouraged from using the Teensy 3.1 but I think it has to do with lack of support for it at the moment. It is still a fairly new board and there hasn't been a lot of development for it. The upside is you can use arduino libraries in it (so I have read, correct me if I am wrong) and there has been lots of development for that. It is overkill for running a keyboard but eh. I might add some switches or something to change layouts on the fly. Also that scroll wheel is a great idea I think I am going to look around tonight and see if I can find something that will fit. I have seen similar designs with little mouse erasers on them which looks like a great idea as well.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 08 April 2014, 22:42:27 »
I am not sure why people are getting discouraged from using the Teensy 3.1 but I think it has to do with lack of support for it at the moment. It is still a fairly new board and there hasn't been a lot of development for it. The upside is you can use arduino libraries in it (so I have read, correct me if I am wrong) and there has been lots of development for that. It is overkill for running a keyboard but eh. I might add some switches or something to change layouts on the fly. Also that scroll wheel is a great idea I think I am going to look around tonight and see if I can find something that will fit. I have seen similar designs with little mouse erasers on them which looks like a great idea as well.
The Teensy 3.1 has a relatively powerful ARM CPU on it, and it can do all kinds of amazing things. Unfortunately though, some of the most developed open keyboard firmwares weren’t written to support it. If you want to use those, then it’s worth picking up a less-powerful microcontroller board.

If you want to also drive a display or do very fast switching of an LED array, or do a bunch of precise analog inputs, or use your microcontroller as an analog signal generator, or do a bunch of numeric computations on it, then the Teensy 3.1 is a great choice. For just a keyboard, I’d recommend doing whatever thing lets you do as much of what you want as possible with as little programming effort.

I’m sure you’ll be fine with the Teensy 3.1 though.

Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 16:08:59 »
Look around for some scroll wheels last night and I came across a couple of options which are interesting. One is like a knob, has 4 axis, you twist it to scroll. The other one is made by TI and is like an Ipod capacitive thing so you could spin it around. Both are interesting. Not sure which I will do yet I will need to check the specs on the TI capacative wheel to make sure it can be supported by the Teensy. The first knob seems like it would be a good choice. You could also compare this knob to like taking a bottle cap on your desk and spinning it around except it would probably be bigger but I am sure there are many variations. Thanks for the info on that. It really got me thinking about maybe specializing the keyboard a little more. I did think about putting a trackball in it but I think that would make it too big but I haven't looked for any track balls yet.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 10 April 2014, 21:15:39 »
Look around for some scroll wheels last night and I came across a couple of options which are interesting. One is like a knob, has 4 axis, you twist it to scroll. The other one is made by TI and is like an Ipod capacitive thing so you could spin it around. Both are interesting. Not sure which I will do yet I will need to check the specs on the TI capacative wheel to make sure it can be supported by the Teensy. The first knob seems like it would be a good choice. You could also compare this knob to like taking a bottle cap on your desk and spinning it around except it would probably be bigger but I am sure there are many variations. Thanks for the info on that. It really got me thinking about maybe specializing the keyboard a little more. I did think about putting a trackball in it but I think that would make it too big but I haven't looked for any track balls yet.

This reminds me of the Griffin Powermate.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 10 April 2014, 22:00:40 »
Also worth considering are those video game controller thumbsticks. For example, you can get a Chinese PS3 controller clone for pretty cheap to harvest parts from.

Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 10 April 2014, 22:07:19 »
Yea I was looking last night and there are quite a few options. I think though the best would be wheel that has both free spin and incremental spin with a knob probably 1" diameter or so. Still looking for something. I will try to find something cheap tonight to steal parts from maybe.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 10 April 2014, 23:46:40 »
Yea I was looking last night and there are quite a few options. I think though the best would be wheel that has both free spin and incremental spin with a knob probably 1" diameter or so. Still looking for something. I will try to find something cheap tonight to steal parts from maybe.

I vote 2 knobs.  One for free spin and one for incremental.  Both must have clicks though.
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Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 11 April 2014, 01:08:52 »
Yea I was looking last night and there are quite a few options. I think though the best would be wheel that has both free spin and incremental spin with a knob probably 1" diameter or so. Still looking for something. I will try to find something cheap tonight to steal parts from maybe.

I vote 2 knobs.  One for free spin and one for incremental.  Both must have clicks though.

I was thinking more like the logitech mice. I am sure others have it as well but thats the one i know. There is a button right next to the wheel that either makes it free spinning or incremental.

Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 11 April 2014, 23:38:47 »
Been busy with work and the baby. Ran version 2 rev a. Removed some keys added some keys shifted the thumbs in and down. I will probably add a scroll wheel in rev b but right now just want to get layout done and try this bad boy out. One last change before i make one out of acrylic will be adding a button in between the two sides for changing between layouts (dvotak qwerty colmak etc). Some added coding will be required but doesnt need to be completed right away. Might add a colored led so that you know which layout you are currently on.

Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 11 April 2014, 23:41:12 »
Just to give you an idea on size i cut this out of an 8.5" x 11" piece of card stock

Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 15 April 2014, 21:10:44 »
Cutting top plate nao.


edit:
All done. Had some trouble with the settings on the laser to cut the acrylic and after an hour and a half of ****ing with it I gave up. I ended up being able to use the second one I made but had to manually pop the little squares out because I think I had the laser too hot and the material was melting back together as it cooled. In any case it looks like it came out pretty good so I am happy about that. The holes in the plate are for a 4-40 screw. I definitely want to add a stand to the thing though because being flat really kind of does not feel that great but when I put something under the back of it it feels great.

« Last Edit: Tue, 15 April 2014, 23:59:07 by OverKill »

Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 09:22:32 »
Got it put together yesterday. I ended up using a similar design for the bottom layers as Constantines board. One thing I would change if I were to use that design again though is I would make every other layer offset because the board is still fairly flexible when you pick it up. It is plenty stable on the desk and when typing on it but when you pick the board up you can bend it very easily. Next stop, wiring and firmware :)


Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 09:29:14 »
I like this project. That layout is interesting and it reminds me of a bird with it's wings spread. For some reason, I'm really drawn to keyboards that are shaped like shapes. Like your board or obra's heart shaped board haha.

Did you share a plan of your layout? I think I missed that.

Looking forward to seeing how this is going to shape up :D

On an unrelated note, are you Over^Kill from #Geekhack in IRC?

Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 09:37:38 »
Indeed I am. I will release the stuff when I get done with it or produce them if people want it. I am not opposed to either idea. The producing boards will be some time later though because I still want to add a scroll wheel and either a trackpoint or some kind of pointing device to it as well as a USB hub.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 09:40:08 »
Be cool to see a trackball in it but I'm not sure how feasible or cheaply that could be done.

And huh, I'll have to pick your brain more later ^__^

Offline technomancy

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 29 April 2014, 00:11:16 »
For the record I ran out of RAM on the Teensy 2 for my Forth firmware and switched to C. I had the basics working in a couple hours and added debouncing in a third hour. (This is with practically no C experience outside implementing my Forth interpreter.) I've been using it for my daily driver, and the debouncing logic needs a bit of fine-tuning, but it's totally usable; I think I over-estimated the challenge. Hope you get yours working nicely too. If you need to crib from my code, it's at https://gitlab.com/technomancy/atreus-firmware

Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 02 May 2014, 23:23:46 »
For the record I ran out of RAM on the Teensy 2 for my Forth firmware and switched to C. I had the basics working in a couple hours and added debouncing in a third hour. (This is with practically no C experience outside implementing my Forth interpreter.) I've been using it for my daily driver, and the debouncing logic needs a bit of fine-tuning, but it's totally usable; I think I over-estimated the challenge. Hope you get yours working nicely too. If you need to crib from my code, it's at https://gitlab.com/technomancy/atreus-firmware

Hey techno,

Yes actually I just finished most of the firmware today. It took me about 2 days total with a little help from haata and dfj pointing me in the right direction. I ended up using the teensyduino library "Keypad". The last thing I need to do is add in the function layer and I should be done. The nice thing about the keypad library is that it has the debouncing in it already. Here is a link to my code.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oi3qd0iouckb6fn
« Last Edit: Fri, 02 May 2014, 23:25:17 by OverKill »

Offline OverKill

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Re: Small ergonomic keyboard
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 05 May 2014, 09:32:35 »
So I got most of the soldering complete last night just need to finish 4 more columns and the teensy. Should be another hour to hour and a half of work. So far it looks like this though.

edit; ah it looks like the last picture I took was before the columns started going on. Oh well it still looks nice! :)

« Last Edit: Mon, 05 May 2014, 09:34:27 by OverKill »