PBT typing feel

[Saturn]

I've always heard that PBT is the ultimate in keycap material.  They're more durable, much more resistant to shine, have a textured feel, etc.  This all sounded great, so I picked up a set of PBT keycaps and gave them a try.  They looked great, and for the most part matched the descriptions that I've read about them, so I tried to convince myself I liked them.

The thing is, I can't stand how they FEEL.  They feel extremely slippery to my fingers.  The texture feels dry and sandy, and my fingers just can't get a grip on them at all.  It reminds me of some years ago when I tried to play on an old piano with keys consisting of genuine ivory and ebony wood.  Felt dry as hell and my fingers just slipped all over the place.  Typing on these feels uncomfortable and actually makes my fingers hurt after prolonged usage.

Do they ever lose this slippery feeling, or is that just how PBT is?  For you PBT lovers, how do you deal with this?

[reverkiller]

The sandiness, when I type on it, stops my fingers from slipping. I'm not sure why yours is different.

[Saturn]

The sandiness, when I type on it, stops my fingers from slipping. I'm not sure why yours is different.

Maybe I just have odd fingers, because it has the opposite effect on me.

When I type on my old, worn, shiny stock Leopold ABS keys, my finger just grabs on to them and grips them perfectly.  No slippage.  The shinier the key, the better the grip.

[fohat.digs]

Wow. Different strokes for different folks.

As a long-time PBT user with fairly dry skin, my perception is the opposite.

For me, the combination of surface texture and "friction" of PBT (and, of course, I am referring to ancient 1980s-90s IBM plastic here) is perfect, and I am always annoyed to go back to ABS because it has a "greasy" sort of feel that makes me feel like my fingers are sliding all over THAT.

And those perceptions are magnified whenever I use old worn doubleshots, which can be downright glassy.

I will admit, however, that SOME of the thin, lightweight caps don't bother me because they seem to impart a lighter touch.

[volatilecoffee]

I also prefer a more shiny sleek key
but I can get for dried out hands it would have a different effect

[linkz]

The sandiness, when I type on it, stops my fingers from slipping. I'm not sure why yours is different.

Maybe I just have odd fingers, because it has the opposite effect on me.

When I type on my old, worn, shiny stock Leopold ABS keys, my finger just grabs on to them and grips them perfectly.  No slippage.  The shinier the key, the better the grip.

Stop picking up your nose while typing. You're unconsciously oiling the keycaps

[TotalChaos]

After a small accident with the transporter, Saturn came out the opposite of everyone else. 

[Saturn]

After a small accident with the transporter, Saturn came out the opposite of everyone else. 

I tried to warn them something like this would happen.  People just aren't meant to have their molecules split up and shot through space!  It ain't natural!

[IvanIvanovich]

What set did you get? If the mold has certain type of texture it will feel slippier than other regardless of the plastic material used.

[Saturn]

What set did you get? If the mold has certain type of texture it will feel slippier than other regardless of the plastic material used.

It's the thick imsto set, the one he's been running, with Cherry profile and dye sub legends in cherry replica font.

[IvanIvanovich]

Ah, yes imsto's does have a finer, smoother texture than some others. I don't find them especially slick though, but I only have a few and not full set yet. Out of all the PBT I have tried I like Cherry PBT dyesubs the best, but such sets don't usually come cheaply... though 2 of mine I got for less than $20 off old typewriter but they are not full compatible with modern keyboard layout. Still good for alpha sets though. You can often find 'white' color G80-8113LUAUS with laser PBT for under $40. They are also fairly decent, might keep an eye for those if you want to try another PBT set. Or you can get G81 board if you only care about some alpha, since the larger key are not fully compatible.

[limmy]

I have tried PBT caps from KBC(Poker), Cherry, Signature Plastics, and Topre.

I didn't really like PBT caps from Poker. They had feeling of slipperiness in contrast to other PBT caps I tried.

Cherry PBT caps are pretty smooth and nice to touch. Signature Plastics PBT caps are more grippy and less smooth than Cherry PBT. Topre caps are pretty similar to SP PBT.

To summarize, not all PBT caps are the same. And there are people who prefers certain ABS caps to PBT caps. (For instance, some say Cherry double shots are their best pick)

If you keep searching or stay in this hobby for a long time, I think you would find what suits you best.

[Saturn]

Thanks for the suggestions, lysol and limmy.

I may give PBT another try again sometime later but right now I feel like ABS is just right for me.  Maybe if I can get my hands on Cherry PBT sometime down the line I'll give it another shot.

[eth0s]

Well for me, the best feeling caps are brand-new ABS double-shots.  Ofc, as they get shiny, the feeling dramatically changes.  I think most people find the shiny caps less comfortable, but apparently there is at least one who finds it more appealing.  PBT caps on the other hand will give you the same feeling for a long time.  But I think new ABS double-shots feel better than new PBT.  Unfortunately, just like Michael Jordan who claimed he needed to get a brand new pair of basketball shoes for each game (he said the shoes felt worn out after only one game), I have to get new double-shots when the old ones get shiny!  (or maybe I'm like the princess who couldn't sleep on the mattress with a pea under it.)

There is one secret keycap you forgot:  POM.  Get yourself some jellies and feel the magic.

[vivalarevolución]

There is one secret keycap you forgot:  POM.  Get yourself some jellies and feel the magic.

I don't know. I've got ABS, PBT, and POM at the moment.  I'll take the PBT over the rest of the bunch. OEM feels better than ABS.  However, I've never tried doubleshots.

[Rhinofeed]

Well if you don't like em', I'd be interested in purchasing your PBT imsto set depending which color you have. ;P

[Saturn]

There is one secret keycap you forgot:  POM.  Get yourself some jellies and feel the magic.

sometimes i like to imagine that POM keys are actually sentient beings who have molded themselves into keycap shapes in order to bring a unique typing experience to humans, and that they feel squishy when typed on, like algae.  they continue to thrive and carry on a highly structured POM civilization, living happy and fruitful lives upon the keyboards of geekhackers.

Well if you don't like em', I'd be interested in purchasing your PBT imsto set depending which color you have. ;P

the color is black legends on blue keys which have taken a distinct orange sheen due to cheeto dust (full set is the same, no differently colored modifiers or anything like that).  just kidding on the cheeto dust.  or maybe i'm not!  you won't know until you receive the set, it'll be an exciting surprise.  PM me if you're interested.

(really though, there's no cheeto dust)

[Rhinofeed]

I'm more interested in his Black on Gray set. I love the color gray too much to switch to blue... sorry. ._.

Man, you have to be careful with that cheeto dust though, it can get EVERYWHERE.

[PointyFox]

They're both feel like plastic to me.

[eth0s]

They're both feel like plastic to me.

Pish posh.  ABS, PBT and POM all feel different on the fingers. 

[lazerpointer]

I can't ever go back to ABS keys. The feel of a well-worn set of PBT is superb. It's perfect. The texture / friction is just enough to attain good grip, while sliding to the next key on the upstroke.

I did find there's one thing to watch out for when ordering PBT caps is that the space bar might be warped. There are methods to fix this but my white imsto set still has a warped space bar because I'm too lazy to try the hot water in a bowl method. It still works fine and I still use it when I type on my QFR reds.

Edit;
ABS keys tend to "grab hold" of my finger tips which I hate. It slows me down.

[Djankie]

I love th pb key kaps. Though I had to adjust during gaming as I first didn't like the feeling for gaming but now i love it.

[RiGS]

What everyone seems to forget is that thick DS keycaps can be reconditioned.

[limmy]

What everyone seems to forget is that thick DS keycaps can be reconditioned.

How?

I thought about ironing the caps with heated sandpaper, but it seems to be a lot of work..

[RiGS]

Well it is a tedious work, but you can try sandblasting.  Also a few folks got great success with sandpaper over there at Deskthority.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39533.0
I also found clickclack's post very helpful.

Edit:
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/sanding-the-double-shot-t1678.html?hilit=1200%20grit

[DrakeMegrim]

PBT is the way to go for me.  I got a set of alpha ABS from WASD and they got shiny in 2 months and drove men insane for a bit.  I've had a Leopold for several months and there is no wear at all on the keys.

[swagpiratex]

ABS feels slick to me while PBT retains its texture and feel for a prolonged period of time.

Maybe you should get into the habit of washing your hands before you use your computer?

[AKIMbO]

Nothing beats the slippery feeling of POM.  POM feels slippery, but in a good way.  ABS just feels meh.  PBT feels heavenly.  If only PBT or POM came in doubleshots.  The only reason I tolerate ABS is because of it's ability to be doubleshot.

The PBT on old IBM boards feels much different than the PBT of say the KBT keycaps.  IBM PBT is smoother, akin to cherry PBT. 

[CPTBadAss]

OP, if you're interested I'm trying to gauge interest for a keycap test tour. The point of the tour is to allow you to try out different keycap materials. Go check out the thread, I'll be updating it soon.

[DrakeMegrim]

Maybe you should get into the habit of washing your hands before you use your computer?

I do; it's just that I game heavily and type for prolonged amounts of time.  *shrug*

[Grim Fandango]

I actually feel the same way about it as the OP.

Currently using KBC engraved PBT keycaps that I bought from Qtan on one of my keyboards. I will keep the PBT keycaps on my keyboards but I have to say that going back and forth between PBT and ABS, I kind of like the ABS better. "Slippery"/shiny keycaps have never been an issue for me. I mean, I hate how they look, but when typing this has never made me uncomfortable, nor did it feel like my fingers would slip etc. With the slight texture on these keycaps however, it feels as though my fingers are a lot less secure about correctly hitting the keycap and the feedback when touching them is somehow less solid (if that makes any sense).

I do not think I have used them extensively enough to know for sure whether it is not just an adjustment phase, and it is not like I do not like typing on them. But I also know for sure now that I actually like shiny, worn in ABS , OEM keycaps. I can not help it.

[Dubsgalore]

i want to get a set of PBT...i have never tried

[eth0s]

Try POM.  Except for the lasered legends, I think it's great.

[DavinDidIt]

Definitely just wanted to say that there is a big difference between manufacturers for PBT keycaps.  The keycaps on my HHKB are much smoother from the factory than the OEM Ducky PBT I have.  The Ducky caps have a lot more texture to them.

[WhiteFireDragon]

OP, you must have mucus gushing out from your fingers or something. Textured PBT definitely feels more grippy for me. They resonate a little differently as well.

[Goodfella]

After getting my first set of PBT keys for my poker, I now have a set on all three of my keyboards. The feeling is far better than SP doubleshots and WASD's keysets, of which I had on my keyboards before. That and their resistance to shine is amazing. I will only use PBT on my keyboards from now on.

[Jocelyn]

I will only use PBT on my keyboards from now on.

Welcome to the club

[Muffet]

I suppose I could put in some input to this thread seeing as I am currently typing on my first ever set of PBT keys. Basically short and simple these feel amazing. They have an extremely nice feel to them, while I can see how someone might slip off of the keys I personally do not have this issue. It may be my imagination, but I believe that the keys have a different sound than the ABS caps did. All in all I would recommend them to anyone that is curious about them. Worse thing that can happen is you don't like them and you can sell them to someone else who is interested in trying them out.

[DavinDidIt]

It may be my imagination, but I believe that the keys have a different sound than the ABS caps did. All in all I would recommend them to anyone that is curious about them.

Definitely not your imagination, buddy

[keymaster]

I will only settle for PBT now. Stock ABS keycaps are terrible in comparison. They're thin, shine fast, and feel slippery. I haven't tried double-shot ABS yet, so I can't speak much about their feel. However, from what I've read, they shine fast.

PBT has the right amount of texture. They have NEVER felt slippery to me. I have dry hands, so that may be a part of it. ABS tends to build up the oil from my hands on its surface. Also, from what I've read, PBT takes much, much longer to develop shine.

So, for these reasons, I will only settle for PBT sets. Double-shot PBT sets will be amazing...

[OnTheBrink]

You should do something about those chalices then..

[Saturn]

You guys are so weird.  I've come to the conclusion that all the world is crazy, and I'm the only sane one.

PBT is slippery, and ABS is grippy.  Truth.

Haven't any of you guys (those of you who play piano) ever played on a really old piano with true ebony and ivory keys, and your fingers slipped off of them because they were too dry and you couldn't get a grip?  PBT is like that, to me.

[Jocelyn]

You guys are so weird.  I've come to the conclusion that all the world is crazy, and I'm the only sane one.

PBT is slippery, and ABS is grippy.  Truth.

Haven't any of you guys (those of you who play piano) ever played on a really old piano with true ebony and ivory keys, and your fingers slipped off of them because they were too dry and you couldn't get a grip?  PBT is like that, to me.

lol sanity has nothing to do with a sensation (Very subjective). We're all hardwired differently and to me, ABS feels exactly like the old pianos you referred to

[ishumprod]

OP, if you still don't like your PBT set maybe we could arrange something ? send me a PM if  you are interested with selling these

[Saturn]

OP, if you still don't like your PBT set maybe we could arrange something ? send me a PM if  you are interested with selling these

Unfortunately my dad has appropriated the PBT set and one of my Filco keyboards for his own purposes, otherwise I'd gladly sell it.

[ishumprod]

OP, if you still don't like your PBT set maybe we could arrange something ? send me a PM if  you are interested with selling these

Unfortunately my dad has appropriated the PBT set and one of my Filco keyboards for his own purposes, otherwise I'd gladly sell it.

damn ._.  bah i'll find my dream set someday.. asn't anyone here ever heard of a set black, brown or charcoal with white letterings , and most important of all, all keys, no matter the row, having the same height ?

[noisyturtle]

Didn't I see some PBT backlit caps some time ago?

[tp4tissue]

PBT is over-rated.. it'll all be smooth and shiny "eventually"

[tp4tissue]

I've always heard that PBT is the ultimate in keycap material.  They're more durable, much more resistant to shine, have a textured feel, etc.  This all sounded great, so I picked up a set of PBT keycaps and gave them a try.  They looked great, and for the most part matched the descriptions that I've read about them, so I tried to convince myself I liked them.

The thing is, I can't stand how they FEEL.  They feel extremely slippery to my fingers.  The texture feels dry and sandy, and my fingers just can't get a grip on them at all.  It reminds me of some years ago when I tried to play on an old piano with keys consisting of genuine ivory and ebony wood.  Felt dry as hell and my fingers just slipped all over the place.  Typing on these feels uncomfortable and actually makes my fingers hurt after prolonged usage.

Do they ever lose this slippery feeling, or is that just how PBT is?  For you PBT lovers, how do you deal with this?

.. this just sounds like you suck at piano..

[Saturn]

.. this just sounds like you suck at piano..

Admittedly, I am no Michael Jordan.

[F u r u y á]

This thread has a rich content and keycap material reviews! I'm just replying for the statistical sake of concurring with Saturn, Flip and AKIMbO.

I concur 101% with the following (especially the bolded parts):

I've always heard that PBT is the ultimate in keycap material.
(...)
They feel extremely slippery to my fingers.

I can't ever go back to ABS keys. The feel of a well-worn set of PBT is superb. It's perfect. The texture / friction is just enough to attain good grip, while sliding to the next key on the upstroke.

ABS keys tend to "grab hold" of my finger tips which I hate. It slows me down.

Nothing beats the slippery feeling of POM.  POM feels slippery, but in a good way.  ABS just feels meh.  PBT feels heavenly.

For me, performance-wise, POM > PBT >> ABS because I like being able to slip my fingers fast, freely and smoothly through the keycaps.

[lazerpointer]

Hmmmm, now I have to buy a Noppoo to try out this POM

[F u r u y á]

Hmmmm, now I have to buy a Noppoo to try out this POM

Mine is from PLU ML-87 (black). Dunno if it's cheaper than Noppoo so you might consider it too.


And just to add to my previous comment, here's my experience with brand new ABS (coming from POM): stock Filco keycaps feeling incredibly sticky-stuttering. In that thread Limmy added great information (as usual) about the coefficient of friction of ABS, PBT and POM:

Coefficient of friction (reference2)
ABS: approx. 0.35
PBT: approx. 0.25
POM: approx. 0.21
Note - This figure has been approximated from a chart in reference2.

[TotalChaos]

Many ppl mistakenly think that PBT is less slippery than ABS because many PBT keycaps come with a texturized matte finish built-in to the keycap mold.

PBT is a very strong and rigid plastic.  IMHO a texturized finish will last a long time when cast in PBT plastic but will quickly wear away when cast in ABS plastic.

And of course if 10 different companies use PBT keycaps then you can be sure there are 5 different kinds of texture being applied to the keycaps.

And then to make things more confusing, some manufacturers apply a coating on top of the keycap, for example to protect their cheap-O Pad-Printed legends.  Different coatings can have any of a million possible imaginable effects.

I think this explains why some ppl think PBT is slippery but other ppl think PBT is grippy grabby or even sandpapery rough.




p.s. POM FTW! 

[keymaster]

This is how I felt when I switched from standard ABS to thick PBT..

[davkol]

I have three kinds of keycaps on my keyboard right now: thick POM (Noppoo), thin PBT (Cherry) and thick ABS (Cherry). I've replaced most doubleshots (thick ABS) with those PBT caps recently, because I hate the sticky feeling of (shiny) ABS when my hands get sweaty. I can't decide whether I prefer POM, or PBT though.

[Grim Fandango]

You guys are so weird.  I've come to the conclusion that all the world is crazy, and I'm the only sane one.

PBT is slippery, and ABS is grippy.  Truth.

Haven't any of you guys (those of you who play piano) ever played on a really old piano with true ebony and ivory keys, and your fingers slipped off of them because they were too dry and you couldn't get a grip?  PBT is like that, to me.

The sandyness you are referring to does make a lot of sense to me, but this feeling is not the same in every set of PBT keycaps. I think it is caused by the surface texture, and I feel it a bit in one set (qtan's black pbt) but not really in another (imsto thick pbt, which is slightly more smooth). A lot of confusion probably comes from the fact that what you are feeling has more to do with the production process of the keys, than it does with the actual material they are made from.

Since I made my post in this thread in the beginning of march, I have tried yet another set of PBT keycaps, while keeping abs keycaps on my other keyboard. Once I got more used to the surface texture on Qtan's set (KBC), the "sandyness" stopped bothering me. However, I am still not sold on it.

Currently ordering a full set of GMK double shot ABS keycaps (oh how my wallet hurts). Once I get them I will compare these as well. Eventually I will have too many spare keycaps and sell at least two sets. I wonder which will be the ones that I like most.

EDIT: After going back and forth I finally settled on what my preferences are
-I do not like Cherry profile over OEM (though they are fine).
-Since thick PBT from imsto comes in Cherry profile, I prefer the thin OEM PBT sets by KBC and Vortex that I have.
-After switching completely from ABS to PBT, ABS now feels worse. Could be caused by just being used to a slightly different feel.
-I am sad, because the double shot ABS cherry profile sets are some of the best looking available. I wanted to prefer these over everything else, but that is not what happened.

[Jocelyn]

This is how I felt when I switched from standard ABS to thick PBT..

ROFL!!! How appropriate

[ideus]

ABS double shot cherries - terse and tender, my favorites.
Thick PBT imsto's in cherry height - matter finish, these caps feel more plastic to me.

[Hyde]

ABS double shot cherries - terse and tender, my favorites.
Thick PBT imsto's in cherry height - matter finish, these caps feel more plastic to me.

I currently have the imsto PBT and I kind of feel the same way.  I really want to try ABS double shot but Sherryton vanished 

[dmreeves]

I had ABS caps on a steelseries 6gv2 for about two years and before coming to GH I didn't know other tyeps of plastic keycaps existed. I discovered that pretty much hands down PBT caps won everyone over, so siding with the majority, when I got my KBT pure I picked one with PBT caps. I found that I really prefer the PBT as they feel "cleaner" and don't get oily and slippery like my ABS caps. I find that PBT have a little bit less friction and at times I need the slight "give" or that the pbt caps have to maximize my typing speed.

PBT reminds me of having my fingertips chalked like you rub chalk on your hands when playing pool, but to a lesser extent.

[fohat.digs]

Since I am an IBM Model M/F diehard, the feeling of Reagan-era PBT has become ingrained (no pun intended) in my fingertips.

Since the keys are big, tall, and heavy (regardless of whether 1-piece or 2-piece, there is a lot of plastic there) that is what feels "right" to me. I think that the mass of the keys is helpful, but I also understand that a gamer would want a light key that would spring back quickly.

Now that I have a few weeks of use on the cast pewter metal caps I got from osrix (Ben from the UK) I can say that I REALLY like them. They are not too slick, and the additional mass creates a very sweet resonance and feel.

Double shot keys look great - no one will argue that anything else can be as sharp - but they quickly wear to a slickness that is unpleasant to - SOME - people. I don't particularly mind it, but prefer some texture on my key surfaces. Also, they never wear evenly, so the "3" will tend to look differently than the "W" and "E" ....