Shooting yourself in the foot collecting Topre keycaps?

[rowdy]

Hey all,

With the dearth of Topre keycaps, and the dwindling varieties of Topre keyboards still on the market (HHKB, a few RealForce, TypeHeaven, FC660C), are we shooting ourselves in the foot collecting Topre keycaps?  Especially the artisan ones?

With the Novatouch coming out soon with Topre switches but MX sliders, Topre keycaps won't fit.

With the availability of community-originated MX sliders for Topre switches, and possibly commercially made equivalents one day, even existing Topre keyboards can be converted for MX keycaps.

Yes, it is unlikely that an existing Topre board will give up the ghost any time soon, but most new boards would be MX or Topre with MX-compatible stems.

So are we shooting ourselves in our feet collecting Topre keycaps?

Or would it be better to collect MX custom keycaps now, and invest in some MX sliders for existing Topre keyboards?

[Pacifist]

We need MX to Topre stems

[rowdy]

We need MX to Topre stems

Which probably wouldn't work because the Topre stem is wider than the hole in the top of an MX switch.

[riotonthebay]

First, HHKB will never die.

Second, many people enjoy Topre profile.

Third, certain Topre moulds, eg Topre clack skulls, are a different (and in my opinion, more pleasant) shape than their MX counterparts.

I feel pretty safe collecting Topre .

[Zeal]

First, HHKB will never die.

Second, many people enjoy Topre profile.

Third, certain Topre moulds, eg Topre clack skulls, are a different (and in my opinion, more pleasant) shape than their MX counterparts.

I feel pretty safe collecting Topre .

I remember when Riot was a Cherry peasant. 

"Death" of Topre is also what's somewhat preventing me from picking up a HHKB/660C :s

[nubbinator]

Just send me your Topre caps then Rowdy.  I've been thinking for a while now about making all my caps Alps and giving an Alps to Topre and MX adapter with each cap.  That way you could easily use a cap on any board and not run into issues.  I just haven't been able to find affordable Topre caps to work from.

[Belfong]

I'd like to say that HHKB is that anchor that will prevent Topre from dying. It's has a very unique keyboard layout and design. And the keycaps for HHKB are still on sale. As such, those artisan keycaps on Topre will always find a home.

The other thing is that Leopold 660C also has a unique layout and the keyboard seemed to have very quality build (I don't own a 660 yet, one day I will). And since they just came up with a dye sub grey version, I believe this will last another 3-5 years perhaps longer due to its uniqueness as well.

RF may die, yeah but with HHKB and 660C around, the Topre artisan key caps are saved.

[rowdy]

Are there new HHKB being made?  Or are they just that little bit more expensive and exclusive that older stock lasts longer?

Also replacement full sets for HHKB are fairly unique, and only EK seems to stock them (plus some Japanese sites, maybe).

Where are the coloured replacement sets for HHKB?  They never existed.  Sure, you can make a RealForce set fit, if you don't mind Caps Lock on the right shift and a few other odd key placements.

Maybe the HHKB sets lasted so long because the originals are PBT and don't wear out, whereas the space bars, being ABS, do shine, and the replacement black HHKB space bars sold out pretty quickly.

[Belfong]

I think HHKB still have a strong market. Didn't they had a sale just last Christmas with the free RGB mod set as well. And it sold out pretty quick.

I haven't been on the keyboard scene that long so I'm not sure how long the HHKB has been around or any statistics to its popularity. But in the short 8 months of observing GH, there seemed to be a lot more new member who are willing to spend on HHKB despite it being overall more expensive. I'm sure the sales has seen an even bigger jump this year. Hasu, a GH member who seemed more familiar with this may be able to comment.

[Michael]

I'm not sure how long the HHKB has been around

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard

[sth]

stop "collecting"

[Belfong]

I'm not sure how long the HHKB has been around

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard

First model introduced in 1996. Almost 18 years! That's a almost an eternity in terms of age for an elite and expensive keyboard to survive. So, I think we should not be worried about HHKB dying.. and therefore, there will still be a place in the keyboard for Topre artisan caps

Bro, you will still be making Topre variants, right? What's your thoughts as a maker?

[Michael]

Bro, you will still be making Topre variants, right? What's your thoughts as a maker?

I will keep making native topre fitted caps, as long as people still use original stems. It's important to note that Topre did not stop making the caps altogether, they just stopped producing them until another large order comes in, which I believe is 10,000? I may be off on that number, but its a rather large number. Not enough demand (on a large scale) to produce another batch.

[sth]

there's always money in the banana stand

[Novus]

Topre Keycaps
Superior quality.
If we're going to sink ... we're going to sink like the battleship yamato.
*reflects*
sniff sniff
****
...
we're becoming outdated.
whatever **** it imma time travel dat ****.

[Michael]

there's always money in the banana stand

[ApocalypseMaow]

there's always money in the banana stand

This man understands me.

Waaaaaaaaaaaay off topic, but I want an odd couple show with sth and BroBot.

[noisyturtle]

So can anyone just give me a straight answer as to why keycap manufactures don't just start making Topre cap sets?

[Michael]

So can anyone just give me a straight answer as to why keycap manufactures don't just start making Topre cap sets?

Yes, don't bother to read up or anything hue.

[ApocalypseMaow]

So can anyone just give me a straight answer as to why keycap manufactures don't just start making Topre cap sets?

Yes, don't bother to read up or anything hue.

Glissant got really mad at me when I made a post like this...   )

Edit: If you're talking about SP or GMk making them, afaik they don't have permission from Topre... I think...

Bro, you will still be making Topre variants, right? What's your thoughts as a maker?

I will keep making native topre fitted caps, as long as people still use original stems. It's important to note that Topre did not stop making the caps altogether, they just stopped producing them until another large order comes in, which I believe is 10,000? I may be off on that number, but its a rather large number. Not enough demand (on a large scale) to produce another batch.

Your answer dude.  )

[Michael]

Glissant got really mad at me when I made a post like this...   )

hue

[Novus]

#ALWAYSTOPRE
#KEEPTOPREMXFREE

DO IT NOW

[baldgye]

#VOTEKENNNNEDY

[rowdy]

I have hHKB now, so my Topre artisan keys have a home.

In the future when I can afford another keyboard, and if it is Topre, chances are it will have MX stems (e.g. Novatouch).

Unless by some reason another batch of HHKB or RealForce keyboards is made.  Is there MOQ 10,000 on this too?

[Belfong]

What I don't understand is, who will ever made an order of 10K? I doubt there is one organization that can do that. Not EK definitely. So, it has to be PFU or someone as big as Leopold. PFU may not be motivated because they sells HHKB. Leopold - likely but now they want to sell their own FC series. Why would they be motivated to sell RF (this the RF key caps we are discussing)? So we are doomed regardless.

Fortunately the adoption of HHKB and FC660C in GH is growing, so at least, we still get artisan caps in Topre. Yay! Can't wait to see Jordan in Topre! We want it!!

[RabRhee]

If the Novatouch proves popular and replaces the topre cap, even for non CM boards, I am hoping for a healthy secondhand market for Topre boards that wander round the $60-120 mark, and could allow the poor/cheapskates* to get to play with some Topre. Maybe the poor/cheapskate* is not the ideal market to covet, but they may still buy some $15 novelty caps, maybe not the $150s.

*(I am a member of both clubs)

[atlas3686]

Can't wait to see Jordan in Topre! We want it!!

Agreed! 

[rowdy]

If the Novatouch proves popular and replaces the topre cap, even for non CM boards, I am hoping for a healthy secondhand market for Topre boards that wander round the $60-120 mark, and could allow the poor/cheapskates* to get to play with some Topre. Maybe the poor/cheapskate* is not the ideal market to covet, but they may still buy some $15 novelty caps, maybe not the $150s.

*(I am a member of both clubs)

That's a good thought!

[noisyturtle]

Still not 100% on what's keeping another company from producing Topre caps. Why would they stop making them, AND hold onto the patent? That's terrible business sense. I'm probably missing something here, but no one wants to explain it and I don't feel like searching through old threads sooooo.....  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Belfong]

I thought technical patent expires after a certain number of years? That means other company can produce Topre stem caps. Perhaps the demand is too low for companies like SP to invest in. I wonder if we can do one via pimpmykeyboard program.

[Pacifist]

I thought technical patent expires after a certain number of years? That means other company can produce Topre stem caps. Perhaps the demand is too low for companies like SP to invest in. I wonder if we can do one via pimpmykeyboard program.

SP makes a lot of caps for industrial companies and POS systems. Topre doesn't have the lifespan of MX and isn't as versatile as many companies want. I really doubt SP will make tooling for topre unless funded by the community, like the cherry replicas

[noisyturtle]

I thought technical patent expires after a certain number of years? That means other company can produce Topre stem caps. Perhaps the demand is too low for companies like SP to invest in. I wonder if we can do one via pimpmykeyboard program.

 I really doubt SP will make tooling for topre unless funded by the community, like the cherry replicas

And that seems totally doable, hence my confusion as to why this hasn't happened yet. Unless everyone is simply *****ing to ***** with zero intention.

[Pacifist]

I thought technical patent expires after a certain number of years? That means other company can produce Topre stem caps. Perhaps the demand is too low for companies like SP to invest in. I wonder if we can do one via pimpmykeyboard program.

 I really doubt SP will make tooling for topre unless funded by the community, like the cherry replicas

And that seems totally doable, hence my confusion as to why this hasn't happened yet. Unless everyone is simply *****ing to ***** with zero intention.

Then how come nobody has gone to other sources? I'm sure there are PLENTY of Chinese factories that will make topre caps, patented or not, as long as we pay them enough, which I'm sure this community can

[noisyturtle]

I thought technical patent expires after a certain number of years? That means other company can produce Topre stem caps. Perhaps the demand is too low for companies like SP to invest in. I wonder if we can do one via pimpmykeyboard program.

 I really doubt SP will make tooling for topre unless funded by the community, like the cherry replicas

And that seems totally doable, hence my confusion as to why this hasn't happened yet. Unless everyone is simply *****ing to ***** with zero intention.

Then how come nobody has gone to other sources? I'm sure there are PLENTY of Chinese factories that will make topre caps, patented or not, as long as we pay them enough, which I'm sure this community can

Your asking the same questions I ask myself. People wanted Cherry replica's and we made it happen. People want Topre caps, and suddenly it's like building a rocketship of marmalade to travel to Jupiter.

I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation.

[Belfong]

And I would think the stem is not part of that expensive tooling. Looking at the way artisan caps could easily be made for MX or Topre or Alps, I think that the expensive mold and cast is just for the caps, with the stem is added at a later stage. So, sp can already make the caps today (even PBT ones based on Granite GB) and adding a different stem into the process probably doesn't cost them a lot more than we thought. Yeah, it's puzzling why this haven't happened.

On the other hand, perhaps that's the reason HHKB can last 18 years. Majority of their customers are probably people who doesn't care about key caps and are not GH members. Much like how Matias is doing so well because he's not just selling to GH, his keyboards appeal to the mass and he has good business sense. These customers don't need key caps and they keep on buying keyboards.

We are just the minority, I'm afraid.

[rowdy]

GH is the minority, unfortunately.  With around 31000 members (assuming they are mostly active, which is not the case - only 5552 unique posters in the last year) we represent a very small, but sometimes very vocal, minority in the keyboard world.

Sometimes I am amazed at the knowledge and skills of some GH members, in such a small market segment.

But anyway, with the tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, of mechanical keyboards sold around the world, a few GHers whinging about the lack of a certain type of keycap is not likely to change the manufacturers' minds.

But it still comes down to whether there will be a supply of Topre keyboards for future generations, although there may always be a market, perhaps dwindling, for artisan Topre keycaps.

[noisyturtle]

I still don't understand why Topre would discontinue making them and not want anyone else to manufacture them in their stead. The only reasons I can think of is that they are holding out for a big buyer, or they plan on resuming production of their keyboards in the future. Otherwise the situation is baffling to me. I thought the Japanese were supposed to be good at business.

[Belfong]

Maybe there aren't people buying the key caps at all! How fast did they sell at EK? I would think that it went really slow. It's only when there are news that Topre will stop that they started to sell. Even then, the printed pink, at 35% discount ($65 now) is still available.

[rowdy]

Or maybe manufacture of Topre keyboards has ceased too, and it just happened that the Topre keycap sets ran out before the keyboards did.

Maybe (lots of speculation here LOL) Tokyo Press is waiting to see what happens with the Novatouch, and community-created MX-compatible Topre sliders before deciding whether to continue manufacturing real Topre parts again.

[Belfong]

Didn't Topre also recently came up with the High Profile key caps? It sure sound recent to me:
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rf104&pid=yk2100

That would require new mold/tooling?

[rowdy]

High profile keycaps (I'm thinking SA would be the closest equivalent that I have actually seen) are popular, but even on GH only amongst the minority.

I'm not sure that they would base the company's future on something that few people would buy.

[noisyturtle]

Didn't Topre also recently came up with the High Profile key caps? It sure sound recent to me:
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rf104&pid=yk2100

That would require new mold/tooling?

Yeah, I actually bought the 104-UG. I was really upset when I realized the stems and caps were proprietary, and the thing only saw about two weeks of use before it went in the closet because I couldn't stand the HP caps. The actual board felt great, but I just couldn't get used to the caps and now it's just a useless piece of **** full of $300 worth of regret.

Nowhere does it say you can't use other Topre caps on there (EK.) Seedy as **** 

[lightsout714]

I didn't realize that RF's were not being made anymore. Always wanted to get a 55g 87u one day.

[Pacifist]

Didn't Topre also recently came up with the High Profile key caps? It sure sound recent to me:
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rf104&pid=yk2100

That would require new mold/tooling?

Yeah, I actually bought the 104-UG. I was really upset when I realized the stems and caps were proprietary, and the thing only saw about two weeks of use before it went in the closet because I couldn't stand the HP caps. The actual board felt great, but I just couldn't get used to the caps and now it's just a useless piece of **** full of $300 worth of regret.

Nowhere does it say you can't use other Topre caps on there (EK.) Seedy as **** 

**** really? That's kinda stupid....you'd already be making new caps but then you also need to develop and produce new boards...keeping it the same would save a lot of hassle.

Could you take a pic of the HP caps? I wounder what that looks like

[Belfong]

Didn't Topre also recently came up with the High Profile key caps? It sure sound recent to me:
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rf104&pid=yk2100

That would require new mold/tooling?

Yeah, I actually bought the 104-UG. I was really upset when I realized the stems and caps were proprietary, and the thing only saw about two weeks of use before it went in the closet because I couldn't stand the HP caps. The actual board felt great, but I just couldn't get used to the caps and now it's just a useless piece of **** full of $300 worth of regret.

Nowhere does it say you can't use other Topre caps on there (EK.) Seedy as ****

Sorry, Noisy - don't really get you - you mean the High Profile caps cannot be put on, say a RF 87U? and that the RF87U caps cannot be put onto the 104-UG? What the hell! Why would Topre go and create a totally new proprietary stuff? As if the current Topre is not proprietary enough!

[noisyturtle]

Sure, here's a pic of a regular Topre switch(bottom) next to the 104-UG's HP switch(top):

you can see that black box around the switch housing prevents regular Topre stems from fitting properly, and they cannot be removed from the switch without taking the entire thing apart

[Zeal]

Sure, here's a pic of a regular Topre switch(bottom) next to the 104-UG's HP switch(top):
(Attachment Link)
you can see that black box around the switch housing prevents regular Topre stems from fitting properly, and they cannot be removed from the switch without taking the entire thing apart

Interesting. Can HP Topre caps fit on the regular Topre stems?

[tbc]

Didn't Topre also recently came up with the High Profile key caps? It sure sound recent to me:
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rf104&pid=yk2100

That would require new mold/tooling?

define recent?  was announced last summer for canada. 

[Belfong]

Ok, I have the impression it was early this year.

Then again - in the slow paced keyboard world, one year is considered pretty recent, isn't it?

[feizor]

Does Topre have much presence in the Chinese keyboard community? The Chinese market is huge but I think it's mostly dominated by the Taiwan brands and Leopold.