Author Topic: Vintage blacks vs new blacks (Read 10754 times)

phinix · « **on:** Thu, 25 January 2018, 08:53:03 »

Is the difference really significant?

Would it be worth desoldering new blacks and fixing vintage?
Would lubing new blacks help a lot?

I have new blacks board, Ducky One, but still can feel this scratching when pressing down the keys.

Where can I buy vintage blacks?

jdcarpe · « **Reply #1 on:** Thu, 25 January 2018, 08:59:16 »

Quote from: phinix on Thu, 25 January 2018, 08:53:03

Is the difference really significant?

Would it be worth desoldering new blacks and fixing vintage?
Would lubing new blacks help a lot?

I have new blacks board, Ducky One, but still can feel this scratching when pressing down the keys.

Where can I buy vintage blacks?

IMO, you are better served lubing the modern blacks you have than searching for the elusive "vintage black" switches. Some sellers believe that all WYSE boards are populated with vintage blacks, when in reality there are both "old" blacks and "vintage" blacks, sometimes both on the same keyboard. The only way you can know the difference for sure is to check each Cherry logo on the housing, one by one.

Or you could just buy Gateron blacks to swap in, which to me feel smoother and more like a vintage black switch.

rich1051414 · « **Reply #2 on:** Thu, 25 January 2018, 09:36:52 »

Neither. Get gateron blacks

phinix · « **Reply #3 on:** Thu, 25 January 2018, 10:01:47 »

Right, so soldering anyway:)

OK, are Gaterons lighter than mx blacks? I mean are they still same heavy, or should I consider switching springs in gaterons?

UsualSuspectXXX · « **Reply #4 on:** Thu, 25 January 2018, 10:15:01 »

Gat blacks are the same weight as the cherry equivalent.

I've got vintage blanks and gat blacks. Both lubed and I love them both. Can't go wrong either way. Gateron will just be easier to find and cheaper.

phinix · « **Reply #5 on:** Fri, 26 January 2018, 05:25:33 »

Quote from: UsualSuspectXXX on Thu, 25 January 2018, 10:15:01

Gat blacks are the same weight as the cherry equivalent.

I've got vintage blanks and gat blacks. Both lubed and I love them both. Can't go wrong either way. Gateron will just be easier to find and cheaper.

Cool. Are they nice and smooth?
I really started to fill that scratching when pressing down the blacks and I hate it.

keyboardMaster · « **Reply #6 on:** Fri, 26 January 2018, 05:37:15 »

The new cherry mx reds and blacks are very smooth, probably smoother than the vintage ones.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88031.0

rich1051414 · « **Reply #7 on:** Fri, 26 January 2018, 11:52:11 »

Gateron has the smoothest stems. I cannot comment on new cherry's, but judging by macro shots, at best, they are equivalent to gateron. The difference would be in the sound of the switch bottoming out and housing color, perhaps possibly how much wobble.

Tactile · « **Reply #8 on:** Fri, 26 January 2018, 12:21:26 »

I think you're forgetting an option. New blacks VS Vintage (used) blacks leaves out just plain used, non-vintage blacks. I have some (non-vintage) blacks I harvested from an old, used Cherry board. After lubing they're *very* nice. I put some in my GH60 Rev C.

My point is that new MX switches can feel scratchy just because they're new. You can harvest switches from an old, used board and get some really nice switches. Especially if the switches come from a board which has probably seen a lot of use in a business or office, like this one (...and double shot keycaps, too!).

Puddsy · « **Reply #9 on:** Fri, 26 January 2018, 12:54:49 »

depends on your batch of vints and a lot of other things

but retooled are more reliably good

OfTheWild · « **Reply #10 on:** Fri, 26 January 2018, 17:58:35 »

+1 for 'new' blacks being smoother than vintage.

macclack · « **Reply #11 on:** Fri, 26 January 2018, 19:46:49 »

Has anyone compared vintage blacks to new blacks on a force curve machine? Would the smoothness of the switch register? I'd be curious to see if there was a noticeable visual difference.

Puddsy · « **Reply #12 on:** Fri, 26 January 2018, 20:03:37 »

Quote from: macclack on Fri, 26 January 2018, 19:46:49

Has anyone compared vintage blacks to new blacks on a force curve machine? Would the smoothness of the switch register? I'd be curious to see if there was a noticeable visual difference.

that's a haata question

Rob27shred · « **Reply #13 on:** Fri, 26 January 2018, 20:30:39 »

I can't comment on vintage blacks because i have never tried them, but I can comment on new (retooled) Cherry blacks, old (pre retooling) Cherry blacks, & Gateron blacks. IME the new retooled Cherry blacks are a tiny smidgen scratchier than Gateron blacks when brand new, but after breaking in & lubing they become buttery smooth just as good as Gaterons IMO. The old (not vintage) Cherry blacks were pretty scratchy brand new, but broke in like all Cherry switches to be fairly smooth. Lube helped a good bit with them too, but the new Cherrys & Gaterons would be superior even after breaking in & lube. The Gaterons blacks are very smooth even at the 1st key press & feel even better lubed but the break in is less of a factor, also they are noticeably lighter. So really after some use &/or lubing new Cherrys & Gaterons are essentially just as smooth as one another, with the Gaterons being more wobbly & lighter while the Cherrys are tighter & heavier.

The main difference is Cherry has tighter tolerances with how the parts fit together than Gateron does. Hence Gats being more wobbly on off center key presses, being smoother at 1st, yet not getting much smoother with use & Cherry having the exact opposite attributes. So I would say give the Cherrys some time to break in & lube them if possible. IMHO spending all the time & money chasing vintage blacks or even getting Gateron blacks & swapping them in really isn't gonna get you a better end result & most likely be a waste.

jdcarpe · « **Reply #14 on:** Fri, 26 January 2018, 21:48:18 »

Quote from: Rob27shred on Fri, 26 January 2018, 20:30:39

I can't comment on vintage blacks because i have never tried them, but I can comment on new (retooled) Cherry blacks, old (pre retooling) Cherry blacks, & Gateron blacks. IME the new retooled Cherry blacks are a tiny smidgen scratchier than Gateron blacks when brand new, but after breaking in & lubing they become buttery smooth just as good as Gaterons IMO. The old (not vintage) Cherry blacks were pretty scratchy brand new, but broke in like all Cherry switches to be fairly smooth. Lube helped a good bit with them too, but the new Cherrys & Gaterons would be superior even after breaking in & lube. The Gaterons blacks are very smooth even at the 1st key press & feel even better lubed but the break in is less of a factor, also they are noticeably lighter. So really after some use &/or lubing new Cherrys & Gaterons are essentially just as smooth as one another, with the Gaterons being more wobbly & lighter while the Cherrys are tighter & heavier.

The main difference is Cherry has tighter tolerances with how the parts fit together than Gateron does. Hence Gats being more wobbly on off center key presses, being smoother at 1st, yet not getting much smoother with use & Cherry having the exact opposite attributes. So I would say give the Cherrys some time to break in & lube them if possible. IMHO spending all the time & money chasing vintage blacks or even getting Gateron blacks & swapping them in really isn't gonna get you a better end result & most likely be a waste.

Yes, what he said.

If you already have MX blacks and you like them except for the scratchiness, just keep using them and eventually they will “break in” with time. That’s why all those old WYSE keyboards feel so good to type on.

UnFocused · « **Reply #15 on:** Sat, 27 January 2018, 20:30:31 »

I've purchased three Wyse terminal boards.

The switches from a board with a PCB date code from 1989 went into a QFR and the switches from a board with a PCB date code from 1986 went into my Phantom. All of these switches are *extremely* smooth and I didn't bother lubing them.

I didn't know how old the 1989 board was when I bought it. The 1986 board didn't have a case and I could see the date code in the eBay photos. Even better, it was only $15.

I've since bought a third Wyse (a Wyse-50 with stepped modifier caps). I haven't taken this one apart enough to see the date code, but I'm fairly certain it's from the 80s. The switches on this one are horribly scratchy.

I'd have given up on old Wyse boards had I started with the third one.

Etherealsound · « **Reply #16 on:** Sat, 27 January 2018, 20:34:56 »

Vintage blacks have a reputation for being fairly inconsistent in feel. If you really want the smoothest switches, lubed gateron blacks are crazy smooth but they also do have a bit more wobble if that matters to you at all.

Puddsy · « **Reply #17 on:** Sat, 27 January 2018, 20:40:49 »

Quote from: Etherealsound on Sat, 27 January 2018, 20:34:56

Vintage blacks have a reputation for being fairly inconsistent in feel. If you really want the smoothest switches, lubed gateron blacks are crazy smooth but they also do have a bit more wobble if that matters to you at all.

good vints are GOOD though

ander · « **Reply #18 on:** Sun, 28 January 2018, 04:55:47 »

In the music business, the bands were bigger (they played instruments and sang, see), and they wore fancier clothes.

phinix · « **Reply #19 on:** Mon, 05 February 2018, 04:56:44 »

Thanks guys! .... and ander

Sounds like new blacks and lube is best choice, or gaterons if I don't mind more wobble (but I love SA so more wobble is a nono).

Rob27shred · « **Reply #20 on:** Mon, 05 February 2018, 06:24:52 »

Quote from: phinix on Mon, 05 February 2018, 04:56:44

Thanks guys! .... and ander

Sounds like new blacks and lube is best choice, or gaterons if I don't mind more wobble (but I love SA so more wobble is a nono).

No problem!

Keep in mind that you can use Cherry top housings on Gateron switches to reduce the wobble of them pretty significantly. Although unless you have one or the other laying around or can get them for free I would not recommend buying a batch of Cherry & Gateron switches just to do that.

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Author Topic: Vintage blacks vs new blacks (Read 10754 times)