Author Topic: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop  (Read 165953 times)

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Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #150 on: Tue, 10 November 2015, 11:43:03 »
*facepalm* Only now did I understand the stream redirection was in reference to your newly identified species. I was right to first believe you would not be crazy enough to undergo an actual stream redirection in the People's Republic.

I'm not quite that crazy. I'm in the process of pulling a permit for a bathroom remodel and the city wants full plans complete with pictures of existing conditions, a full plot plan, literature on the windows, framing details for a header over a pocket door, etc... I'm guessing the permits will be about $500 and with all of the details I'm providing, I may even get hit up with a plan check fee. Why should they be surprised by all of the bootlegging that goes on in the construction industry.

Melvang-  I'm pretty impressed with the Ceracote specs. Do you think that it would work well for the keycaps?  Have you shot it yourself? I'm curious about the viscosity and if it could be sprayed with an airbrush.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #151 on: Tue, 10 November 2015, 11:51:59 »
Melvang-  I'm pretty impressed with the Ceracote specs. Do you think that it would work well for the keycaps?  Have you shot it yourself? I'm curious about the viscosity and if it could be sprayed with an airbrush.

I have not sprayed it.  Though there are home brew kits for using it.  There are two varieties from the same manufacturer.  One is a room temp cure and the other is a bake cure that can be done in a home oven.    I don't know if there are different specs for the final product between room temp or baked cure.  But I do know that they do have different color capabilities between the two.

I would for one be very curious on how it would feel for caps.
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Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #152 on: Tue, 10 November 2015, 14:11:58 »
I'm not quite that crazy. I'm in the process of pulling a permit for a bathroom remodel and the city wants full plans complete with pictures of existing conditions, a full plot plan, literature on the windows, framing details for a header over a pocket door, etc... I'm guessing the permits will be about $500 and with all of the details I'm providing, I may even get hit up with a plan check fee. Why should they be surprised by all of the bootlegging that goes on in the construction industry.

I wonder how long it will be before they realize that these custom keyboards are as potentially dangerous as a collapsed ceiling, given the chance of the common tinkerer to create an input device that will cause tendinitis 10% faster. It sounds crazy to need a permit to build your own keyboard, but it should sound equally crazy to need permission from the government to build or modify the very structure essential for you and your family's survival. /libertarian rant

Back on topic, Ceracote is cool stuff. It would be interesting to explore the potential there. I'd be a little concerned about the thickness. The .006" thickness Melv mentioned is under ideal settings, which you will not likely be able to replicate. If you end up adding 10+ thou to both sides of an inlay, it is gonna be tough getting that perfect fit walnut back in there.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #153 on: Tue, 10 November 2015, 15:12:42 »
Well,   I'm here waiting at City Hall waiting to submit my plans. There are about 10 people before me in line. The line is moving at a rate of one person every fifteen minutes. They close in an hour and a half. I may be back tomorrow if something doesn't change.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #154 on: Tue, 10 November 2015, 16:02:30 »
It'll be worth it when the bureaucrat engineer finds the flaw in your design that would have decapitated you on your first mid-night trip to use the toilet.

A wise man once said that it's easier to ask for forgiveness than to get permission.

welp, I just looked it up, and apparently it wasn't a man at all, rather one of the coolest women ever:
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

Offline Melvang

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #155 on: Tue, 10 November 2015, 16:08:54 »
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #156 on: Tue, 10 November 2015, 17:01:20 »
I'm still waiting.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #157 on: Tue, 10 November 2015, 17:42:04 »
Trust me, there are good reasons for making the average Joe get those permits.  It is because the average Joe doesn't know, care, or give a **** about building codes.  They cobble stuff together, then when they sell the house to someone, a ceiling, floor, or wall falls down, and this could be a best case scenerio.  Imagine that you now put this into electrical work with 120vac.
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Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #158 on: Tue, 10 November 2015, 18:04:02 »
Trust me, there are good reasons for making the average Joe get those permits.  It is because the average Joe doesn't know, care, or give a **** about building codes.  They cobble stuff together, then when they sell the house to someone, a ceiling, floor, or wall falls down, and this could be a best case scenerio.  Imagine that you now put this into electrical work with 120vac.

Good intention is a horrible justification for laws that restricts freedom. We already have a legal system which would hold said average Joe liable for such shortcomings, with punishments far more severe than the penalties that are dolled out for failing to get a permit. Thus, average Joe simply doesn't abide by the permit law, and the only people that do would have built it right regardless. The net result is wasted time, wasted money, and a needless loss of freedom.

The same argument could be made to justify extremely strict gun laws, where only "professionals" were allowed to own them. Because, I mean, trust me, you wouldn't want some average Joe shooting his guns into the air like a lunatic, raining lead down on unsuspecting innocents miles away, right?


Very cool info on cerakote. I had no idea it was so thin. Something to look into.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #159 on: Tue, 10 November 2015, 18:22:52 »
Trust me, there are good reasons for making the average Joe get those permits.  It is because the average Joe doesn't know, care, or give a **** about building codes.  They cobble stuff together, then when they sell the house to someone, a ceiling, floor, or wall falls down, and this could be a best case scenerio.  Imagine that you now put this into electrical work with 120vac.

Good intention is a horrible justification for laws that restricts freedom. We already have a legal system which would hold said average Joe liable for such shortcomings, with punishments far more severe than the penalties that are dolled out for failing to get a permit. Thus, average Joe simply doesn't abide by the permit law, and the only people that do would have built it right regardless. The net result is wasted time, wasted money, and a needless loss of freedom.

The same argument could be made to justify extremely strict gun laws, where only "professionals" were allowed to own them. Because, I mean, trust me, you wouldn't want some average Joe shooting his guns into the air like a lunatic, raining lead down on unsuspecting innocents miles away, right?


Very cool info on cerakote. I had no idea it was so thin. Something to look into.

One thing to remember here is that in gettign those permits, the only difference between you and a contractor doing to job for someone else is insurance and bonding.  So that process protects you from **** work by shoody contractors as well.  All the law suits in the world don't mean anything if there is no company in business any more to sue.  This ends up being pretty common after natural disasters.
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Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #160 on: Tue, 10 November 2015, 18:40:30 »
All the law suits in the world don't mean anything if there is no company in business any more to sue.
This dissolved company scenario pertains to lawsuits no more than it does to permitting. Companies can cheat permits the same as an individual. The fact remains that a lawsuit arising from someone actually getting injured, has been and will be a greater incentive for both companies and individuals to build things correctly than permits.

This ends up being pretty common after natural disasters.
Yes, you've already identified the problem. My argument is not that the problem doesn't exist, but that your solution in permitting is arguably ineffective. And even if it were perfectly effective, it is a violation of a freedom so basic - the building of a structure to shelter yourself - that regardless of the amount of protection it offers from shoddy workmanship, it still is not justified.


...and since we're probably not going to ever be able to agree on that, we should probably get back on topic :)
Cerakote, test it out!
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 November 2015, 18:47:18 by Zekromtor »

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #161 on: Wed, 11 November 2015, 00:31:10 »
I got to say, I enjoyed the discussion while I was away. I think you both have made some good points. I like discussing things with thoughtful and reasonable people. Good people don't always agree but they still have valid reasons to support their positions.

Many times our opinions are conceived or supported by personal experiences. Because I would never intentionally cheat or shortchange a customer, I can be a bit naive about some of the unscrupulous practices out there. I tend to see the negative side of over-regulation more than its benefits. The excessive demands by Building/Planning departments don't only hurt the contractor. For example, today I spent a half a day drawing plans for a bathroom remodel and the other half waiting for an official to tell me that I was missing a detail on how to frame a header over a doorway of a non-bearing wall. I have probably rough framed over a thousand doorways in my career and didn't think it was necessary. Now I have another trip to the city to look forward to. Ultimately, these costs get passed on to the customer. I'm guessing that this $15000 remodel will cost closer to 20, thanks to this and many other bureaucratic intrusion on this job.

On the other hand, I have seen poor workmanship that at times is unsafe. Having reasonable codes and standards is necessary. It's comforting to be fairly confident that the house you buy won't burn down or collapse, and that is a result of high building standards.

When I became licensed, I didn't suddenly become a better builder. My customers didn't start getting a better product. The best protection for the consumer is to find a competent and trustworthy tradesman that they don't have to take to court rather than one who has a measly $7500 bond and a contract that his lawyer drew up. No law will protect you from somebody that wants to cheat you.

 Building inspectors have 2 types of people to worry about. The incompetent and the unscrupulous. I've also seen people hide serious violations from inspectors. Just having an inspector show up occasionally is no guarantee that all is well. A former employee told me about another builder who forgot to  put some critical hold-down bolts in a foundation pour. When the inspector came out to inspect the hold-downs, the bolts appeared to be in place because he epoxy a small stub of the bolt to the top of the plate. It will be interesting to see how that holds up to California's next big one. On the other hand, the novice will often do substandard work, not intentional but out of incomplete knowledge of the task. An inspector can play an important role in informing and correcting all builders on current standards

Do we need regulations? Yes. Do we need oversight? Yes. Should education be available for best practices? Definitely.  But have things gotten so over-regulated that the cure is more harmful to the organism that the disease ?  In many cases I think the answer is yes. 

Thanks for indulging me. Now that this is out of my system, maybe we can get back to keyboards.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #162 on: Wed, 11 November 2015, 01:36:01 »
All this time I thought you were doing your own bathroom :)

I'm fine with some minimum standards for people selling their services as builders, as a means to remove the ambiguity of what does or doesn't constitute negligence. The permitting system is an absolute nightmare, however, and it greatly increases the cost of hiring a competent builder.

Speaking of minimum standards, I just realized that this keyboard design only has a single row of thumb keys. That's what I use myself, so I'm a fan of it, but what were the two thumb keys (you went from 2+3 to 4 I think) that you decided you didn't need when in the standard typing position? Obviously the perimeter keys make it so you have more keys total, I'm just interested in the layout now...

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #163 on: Wed, 11 November 2015, 08:27:41 »
Good question. After using thumb keys almost exclusively for the last couple of years as well as a layered board, I realized that I rarely used the right shift or right layer shift key. I also never used the embedded ten key on the third layer. As a result, I found that having all layer keys on the right half and only 1 layer function key on the left adequate for me. No numlock. No layer locks. Because of fewer keys and closer key spacing, no right shift necessary. The radial keys are a game changer for my CAD work and those keys will sometimes replace and sometimes supplement the thumb keys.

The second thumb key row worked well and is getting axed, but only to make room for the radial ones, not because they didn't work well. On the subject of the thumb keys, I've enlarged them.  I think that a slightly larger target will be beneficial for them. That may seem strange coming from one who has gone to extreme measures to make the finger keys smaller. Trust me, I know what I'm doing. :)

I have yet to decide about arcade buttons. I have room for at least 2. The larger thumb keys distance them a bit farther from home position so the mouse clicks are going on the thumb cluster but browsing controls could work well there.

One final comment about over-regulation, and then I'll stop. I was going to begin the bath remodel next Monday. The city has a Historic district but this house is several blocks from it. In spite of that, their tentacles still have a grip on any house in the city built before 1940. My customer will not be allowed to use a vinyl window over the shower in spite of the fact that it won't be detectable from the street. The city wants wood. As a result, the job will be delayed roughly a month, two if they don't want their house torn up during the holidays. I can get a very nice vinyl window in 7 days for around $300, while the wood one will take 5 weeks for $700. That's before painting, something that will have to be repeated often on a shower window. Either window would be trimmed out with wood on the exterior and not affect the "ambiance" of the neighborhood. I struggle to make sense of it but maybe I'll figure it out this month while I'm unemployed.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #164 on: Wed, 11 November 2015, 11:59:11 »
That's too funny. When kurplop, the wood whisperer, the man accused of being a beaver, chooses vinyl over wood...it must be for a very good reason. I wish my bathroom window near the shower was vinyl =/

Sounds good. I hope you post a pic at some point of the key mapping you end up using. I know you've been beaten up in the past for your capslock key, and you probably get cold sweats thinking about posting another layout, but do it anyways :)

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #165 on: Wed, 11 November 2015, 12:55:36 »
Zek-  Your recent comments remind me of how much I have missed your presence here the last few months.

I don't mind about the caps lock controversy. Sometimes I even enjoy stirring up a little trouble. :p

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #166 on: Wed, 11 November 2015, 13:24:25 »
I may have to take a plunge into this
White Fc660c

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #167 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 11:51:22 »
I got in some mill time this morning to cut out the recess for the left palm rest.   

I didn't want to secure it to the rotary table, so I freehand cut the arc. After getting it close I'll clean it up on a sanding drum in a drill press. It worked pretty well on the other side.
117053-0

I finally decided where to mount the arcade switches and indicator lights and hope to bore them out this afternoon. One step at a time.
117055-1  117057-2
I've got the weight of the shell down to about 24 ounces and I still have the holes to cut.  Success!  By the way, great honor will be bestowed upon the first person who knows where that black disc, the one holding down the work, came from.


EDIT: Yes, I was using a Four Flute end mill. Shame on me.
« Last Edit: Thu, 12 November 2015, 11:58:34 by kurplop »

Offline cryptokey

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #168 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 11:58:26 »
As a trackball user, I really like how you're integrating it into the board - it looks like something out of a sci-fi movie!  My only question is do you have any plans for a scroll wheel (possibly like the Kensington orbit or CST ones)? 
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #169 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 12:03:11 »
As a trackball user, I really like how you're integrating it into the board - it looks like something out of a sci-fi movie!  My only question is do you have any plans for a scroll wheel (possibly like the Kensington orbit or CST ones)? 

Thanks and welcome to Geekhack.

It is a Kensington Slimblade. The scrolling is in the ball. The action is similar to the Expert Mouse without the scroll ring. You rotate the ball in the same motion you would use on the scroll ring.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #170 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 15:56:42 »
4 flute isn't ideal, but it typically is fine as long as you've got a strong compressed air stream and are only doing perimeter cuts, not slotting.

BTW, where'd you get whatever you're using for your compressed air? I've got some jerry rigged copper tubing that I bend into place (and slowly drip mineral oil onto for lubrication), but I wouldn't mind a system that would allow for easier positioning. I'm too cheap to buy the fog buster.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #171 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 18:00:11 »
4 flute isn't ideal, but it typically is fine as long as you've got a strong compressed air stream and are only doing perimeter cuts, not slotting.

BTW, where'd you get whatever you're using for your compressed air? I've got some jerry rigged copper tubing that I bend into place (and slowly drip mineral oil onto for lubrication), but I wouldn't mind a system that would allow for easier positioning. I'm too cheap to buy the fog buster.

The four flute was less than ideal. It kept getting aluminum stuck in the flutes. I like to test the water sometimes to see if what they say is really how it is... It is.

It is a fogger but I don't have it hooked up to anything but air. My daughter's father in law is a machinist and he scared me about that stuff floating around in the air. I think it's similar to one Grizzly sells. I'll take a picture when I'm back in the shop.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #172 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 18:29:50 »
Since my bathroom remodel had to be rescheduled to start on Jan. 4th, it looks like I may get this thing finished before the end of the year!

I drilled out the holes for the LED's and the arcade buttons. Not quite as easy as just drilling a couple of holes. I still have to do the final shaping of the top to try to get the buttons to lay perfectly flat. The white buttons are for fitting, that's not the final color.
117078-0

I had to use a boring bar to get the right diameter on the arcade switches. I didn't have a 15/16" drill and I didn't want them flopping around in a loose hole. Now their so tight I may have to burn them out. I dished out the underside of the shell so the switches would lock in.
117080-1

The LED indicators were easier but it did involve 3 steps. A 1/4" through hole followed with a 5/16" to recess the bezel and a 7/16" from below to provide clearance.
117082-2

I don't think I ever showed the 2 cutouts for the trackball sensors. They intrude into the keyring area but miss the switches.
117084-3

And a final picture of the walnut blank before it's contoured sanded .
117086-4

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #173 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 18:33:02 »
kurplop just put some sanwas into this keyboard?? One step closer to being able to play Street Fighter on a MAME cabinet with this board. Do you think that the Goa'uld can handle my hadoukens?

Moving on from stupid references, that center part is looking might Stargate now :D. Board really looking good!

Offline njbair

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #174 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 18:36:58 »
This thing just keeps getting awesomer.

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Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #175 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 20:40:35 »
4 flute isn't ideal, but it typically is fine as long as you've got a strong compressed air stream and are only doing perimeter cuts, not slotting.

BTW, where'd you get whatever you're using for your compressed air? I've got some jerry rigged copper tubing that I bend into place (and slowly drip mineral oil onto for lubrication), but I wouldn't mind a system that would allow for easier positioning. I'm too cheap to buy the fog buster.
It is a fogger but I don't have it hooked up to anything but air. My daughter's father in law is a machinist and he scared me about that stuff floating around in the air. I think it's similar to one Grizzly sells. I'll take a picture when I'm back in the shop.

Yeah, that's why I stick to mineral oil. I buy the pharmacy grade stuff from CVS that you could drink if you wanted to, so I don't mind breathing some of it in.

No clue what the repurposed black disc is by the way.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #176 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 21:19:52 »
117090-0

Any last minute guesses before I reveal where that disc came from?.

Offline njbair

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #177 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 21:25:31 »
(Attachment Link)

Any last minute guesses before I reveal where that disc came from?.
I see what you did there.

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Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #178 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 23:40:12 »
I thought it was gonna be from the nose of the aircraft you flew in WW2 or something, not some scrap from your key caps :)

Offline njbair

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #179 on: Fri, 13 November 2015, 12:21:11 »
I thought it was gonna be from the nose of the aircraft you flew in WW2 or something, not some scrap from your key caps :)

How old do you think he is?!?

Alpine Winter GB | My Personal TMK Firmware Repo
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Review: hasu's USB to USB converter
My boards:
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AEKII 60% | Alps64 HHKB | Ducky Shine 3, MX Blues | IBM Model M #1391401, Nov. 1990 | IBM SSK #1391472, Nov. 1987, screw modded, rubber-band modded | Noppoo EC108-Pro, 45g | Infinity 60% v2 Hacker, Matias Quiet Pros | Infinity 60% v2 Standard, MX Browns | Cherry G80-1800LPCEU-2, MX Blacks | Cherry G80-1813 (Dolch), MX Blues | Unicomp M-122, ANSI-modded | Unicomp M-122 (Unsaver mod in progress) | 2x Unitek K-258, White Alps | Apple boards (IIGS, AEKII) | Varmilo VA87MR, Gateron Blacks | Filco Zero TKL, Fukka White Alps | Planck, Gateron Browns | Monarch, click-modded Cream Alps

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #180 on: Fri, 13 November 2015, 12:22:09 »
(Attachment Link)

Any last minute guesses before I reveal where that disc came from?.

Looks like a fan for a PC case.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #181 on: Fri, 13 November 2015, 12:26:47 »
(Attachment Link)

Any last minute guesses before I reveal where that disc came from?.

Looks like a fan for a PC case.

It is the slug from when he cut the caps for around the track ball.
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Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #182 on: Fri, 13 November 2015, 21:13:13 »
I thought it was gonna be from the nose of the aircraft you flew in WW2 or something, not some scrap from your key caps :)

How old do you think he is?!?

I'd guess about, oh, say, 61. But I've got to get the old jokes in while I can, accurate or not. Getting grey in the beard.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #183 on: Sat, 14 November 2015, 07:50:46 »
kurplop just put some sanwas into this keyboard?? One step closer to being able to play Street Fighter on a MAME cabinet with this board. Do you think that the Goa'uld can handle my hadoukens?

Moving on from stupid references, that center part is looking might Stargate now :D. Board really looking good!

Thanks to you I just learned 3 new words.

[
It is a fogger but I don't have it hooked up to anything but air. My daughter's father in law is a machinist and he scared me about that stuff floating around in the air. I think it's similar to one Grizzly sells. I'll take a picture when I'm back in the shop.

Yeah, that's why I stick to mineral oil. I buy the pharmacy grade stuff from CVS that you could drink if you wanted to, so I don't mind breathing some of it in.


I drink milkshakes but I wouldn't want to inhale them. :p

UPDATE:  I started reshaping the "Stargate" key ring caps. It would have been easier to have done it while the caps were all part of the nose from the Corsair I flew in WW2 but that's another story. ;)  ( I was born a decade after they stormed Normandy)

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #184 on: Sat, 14 November 2015, 11:15:58 »
kurplop just put some sanwas into this keyboard?? One step closer to being able to play Street Fighter on a MAME cabinet with this board. Do you think that the Goa'uld can handle my hadoukens?

Moving on from stupid references, that center part is looking might Stargate now :D. Board really looking good!

Thanks to you I just learned 3 new words.

[
It is a fogger but I don't have it hooked up to anything but air. My daughter's father in law is a machinist and he scared me about that stuff floating around in the air. I think it's similar to one Grizzly sells. I'll take a picture when I'm back in the shop.

Yeah, that's why I stick to mineral oil. I buy the pharmacy grade stuff from CVS that you could drink if you wanted to, so I don't mind breathing some of it in.


I drink milkshakes but I wouldn't want to inhale them. :p

UPDATE:  I started reshaping the "Stargate" key ring caps. It would have been easier to have done it while the caps were all part of the nose from the Corsair I flew in WW2 but that's another story. ;)  ( I was born a decade after they stormed Normandy)

Haha, I dunno man. If I saw Stephen Dorff advertising a cool new milkshake inhaler, I might try it out.
Normandy 1944. +10 = 1954. 2015 - 1954 = 61.

I'm in my late thirties, but I bet kurplop and I have the same haircut. i.e. not really enough to cut anymore.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #185 on: Sat, 14 November 2015, 12:18:43 »
Based on the color of my nose hair, if I had any on my head it would be grey. It's been 40 years since I've had any use for a comb.

Your math and history skills are correct.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #186 on: Sat, 14 November 2015, 18:50:54 »
I had a little bit of time to glue up the back of the case this morning.
117185-0

A couple of quick passes through the planer later.
117187-1

It's critical that this ends up where I want it.
117189-2

Marked and ready to cut. (Notice safety shoes in this photo. Nothing to see here. Move along OSHA.)
117191-3

Because the underside is stepped in the middle, it will be a trick getting everything fitted just right .

Next installment we'll see if I can pull the proverbial rabbit out of my hat.
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 November 2015, 18:54:08 by kurplop »

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #187 on: Sun, 22 November 2015, 19:40:44 »
I decided to revise the keyring plan by increasing the number of keys from 11 to 13. Not so much because I needed them but rather to keep the size of the caps from being bigger than necessary. I also decided to go with Matias switches on the ring because the .05" savings will help the clearance issues. To make the changes I made a new plate and cut out any of the old one that was in the way. This cleansup the open switch pockets in the plate which, although it was plenty strong, it looked like a mistake.
118088-0

The black paint on the underside helped me to identify the areas I had to remove in the existing plate.


This required making new caps which look pretty rough here but should clean up nicely. They aren't fully seated here so the picture looks worse than it is.
118090-1


The new ring plate will eventually be cemented to the underside. I'm not sure if I should do that before the anodize or after.

Offline njbair

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #188 on: Sun, 22 November 2015, 20:16:19 »
What kind of cement would you use to hold aluminum?

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Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #189 on: Sun, 22 November 2015, 20:29:09 »
I' m open to suggestions. I think JB has an epoxy based product especially formulated for aluminum. I will be able to supplement it with a few small screws also but thought an adhesive may offer added integrity. There are still several webs from the old integrated plate supporting the trackball but I thought making a continuous bond would guarantee trouble free results.

Are you asking with regards to the acid bath anodize or the reliability of bonding aluminum with cements?


Offline njbair

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #190 on: Sun, 22 November 2015, 20:42:31 »
I' m open to suggestions. I think JB has an epoxy based product especially formulated for aluminum. I will be able to supplement it with a few small screws also but thought an adhesive may offer added integrity. There are still several webs from the old integrated plate supporting the trackball but I thought making a continuous bond would guarantee trouble free results.

Are you asking with regards to the acid bath anodize or the reliability of bonding aluminum with cements?
I was mainly thinking of the weight of the trackball plus the key presses, all exerting downward force, nearly any bond except a weld is likely to fail eventually.

If you can get a few small screws on there, and then whatever cement or solid gasket material can act mainly as a dampener, I think you'll be in good shape.

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Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #191 on: Sun, 22 November 2015, 20:50:48 »
Good point. Thanks for the input.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #192 on: Sun, 22 November 2015, 21:48:50 »
Start making room in the workshop. It's time to start TIG welding. Only half joking. That would be really cool.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #193 on: Sun, 22 November 2015, 22:47:23 »
Start making room in the workshop. It's time to start TIG welding. Only half joking. That would be really cool.

Aluminum warps pretty bad when welding.  Stainless, especially 300 series is about the only ting works for the home welder.
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Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #194 on: Mon, 23 November 2015, 00:21:27 »
I'm not completely sold on that. Always wary when somebody starts talking about things that for some reason magically don't work in your home, but they can work quite perfectly elsewhere. But lets say TIG isn't viable due to warping issues:

But what about soldering it?


Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #195 on: Mon, 23 November 2015, 05:48:52 »
Start making room in the workshop. It's time to start TIG welding. Only half joking. That would be really cool.

Someday soon.

Start making room in the workshop. It's time to start TIG welding. Only half joking. That would be really cool.

Aluminum warps pretty bad when welding.  Stainless, especially 300 series is about the only ting works for the home welder.

Are you suggesting that I start from scratch with stainless?:)   The warping does concern me. If I did weld or braze, would preheating in an oven mitigate the potential for distortion?

I'm not completely sold on that. Always wary when somebody starts talking about things that for some reason magically don't work in your home, but they can work quite perfectly elsewhere. But lets say TIG isn't viable due to warping issues:

But what about soldering it?



You've got me curious about that.

Thanks for all the input guys. It sure helps getting different perspectives so I can make a better informed decision. Given the risks, I may try just the screws. That will make accessing things easier if ever necessary and the thought of turning Planet 6 into a big molten blob concerns me.  We'll see. I don't usually trust my 3:00 AM decisions.


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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #196 on: Mon, 23 November 2015, 22:50:12 »
I'm not completely sold on that. Always wary when somebody starts talking about things that for some reason magically don't work in your home, but they can work quite perfectly elsewhere. But lets say TIG isn't viable due to warping issues:

But what about soldering it?

I just watched part of that first video.  A TON of plain wrong information.  First he was soldering, not welding or even brazing.  You simply can't get enough heat out of a single gas torch to melt aluminum for brazing or even welding.  Second, aluminum is very fussy about being clean for welding, but you never use a carbon steel brush.  Stainless steel only, and that is the only thing that brush is used for.  As soon as you run it across anything but aluminum, you can't use it for aluminum and expect the same results anymore.  Yes aluminum is that fussy.  Yes you can weld pop cans together with TIG, but it takes an incredibly steady hand to do so.  No they won't warp that bad for a few reasons.  The weld structure is a butt joint on pipe essentially, pretty strong joint for the amount of material there, and it is a continuous joint, there is no end point.

 I apologize for my comment, I don't know what I was thinking.  But aluminum and 300 series stainless steels warp when welding, both at home and in the shop.  The difference being the shop has more experience with designing the joints to minimize the warpage, and the order and direction you preform the welds in the part can have a huge impact in the outcome of the final product.  I have seen this first hand.  My welding instruction for my union apprenticeship brought in his stainless gas tank that he needed to weld in a baffle for his boat.  Before welding it was nice and flat.  He cut the top off with a 4 inch grinder.  Just that bit of heat caused the "lid" to have a bit of a bow in it.  After welding the baffle, it looked like a piece of bacon.  Granted, for this application, so long as the "lid" welds back to the rest of the tank, the bolts make up, and it doesn't leak, all is good.
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Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #197 on: Mon, 23 November 2015, 23:52:35 »
It would be sad indeed if Kurplop's pride and joy looked like a piece of bacon in the end. Sticking with screws is a safe bet.

Interesting stuff with the welding. His keyboard probably is a lot thicker (relative to the surface area at least) and easier to weld than a gas tank, but still, best not to experiment with something so priceless. I've got some of those 'brazing' rods (that are really soldering rods) but I had trouble getting a test piece of metal hot enough to melt them with my ****ty propane burner.

Offline tufty

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #198 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 03:22:17 »
My results with Aluminium brazing / soldering rods have not been good.  Not good at all.  I'd suggest using an epoxy (a structural bonding epoxy like one of 3M's ScotchWeld range or something like that if you can get your hands on it, but 24H Araldite would probably do). Drill and tap for hidden machine screws first. You'll need to remove the auto-anodise on the surface you're bonding, if you're smart you could use something like 600 grit wet & dry on a sanding block and wetted *with epoxy* (that way you never leave your freshly cleaned surface open to the air).  Then, rather than using external clamping, use your machine screws to clamp and hold it all in place.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #199 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 05:49:37 »
 So the anodize and oxidization both resist a good bond with an adhesive as well as by fusion welding. That's good to
know.   I was surprised to see the solder technique work, given the immediate oxidation of aluminum, but you can't deny that it can work based on all of the video examples out there.

Do you think that a coarse grit, like 100, would key in the epoxy better than 600?