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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Sc0tTy on Wed, 10 May 2017, 15:12:19
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Hi All,
I'm going to purchase a Ergodox EZ to replace one of my TEK's (yes its failing.. again).
There is still one roadblock though: switch type.
The Browns are currently unavailable due to QC issues and I'm also interested in trying out linear switches.
For me the only two possible options are the Yellows and the Blacks but there seems to be a bit of contradicting information on the internet.
Some sites are listing them both as 50gram or 55gram switches where the Yellow bottoms out at 60grams and the Blacks bottom out at 70grams.
Examples: http://www.switchtop.com/product/gateron-switches and https://deskthority.net/wiki/Gateron_KS-3_series
But EZ's website (and the spec sheet they provided to me by email) states that the Yellows are 50gą15gf and Blacks are 60gą15gf for the actuation force.
Link: https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/keyswitches
So I have two questions.
What does 60gą15gf actually mean ?
My interpretation is that its 60grams but it can differentiate about 7.5grams more or less per switch.
My Google-fu does not steam strong enough to answer that question though.
And what is the actual force required for the switches (who is right)?
Extra info: My current TEK's have 60gram Kailh Brown switches which I think are too heavy, the 45gram Cherry Browns on my colleagues keyboard feel a lot lighter.
My fear is that the Yellows might just be a tad to light or the Blacks a tad to heavy.
Thanks in advance!
Sc0tTy
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There's the science behind all this, sure. But what's really important is how switches feel and respond under your fingers, not a bunch of pennies or whatever.
Gateron Blacks intrigued me so much I tracked down a board with them, and personally I think they rock. (And aren't Gat Yellows no longer made? That's what DT seems to think (https://deskthority.net/wiki/Gateron_KS-3_series).) But hey, there are people who think RDs beat everything else. You just have to try stuff. And if you can't try it, you have to get a 2nd job so you can buy stuff you may end up not using much. This is the reality of keyboard mania.
[attach=1]
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I've owned Cherry MX Blacks, Reds, and Vintage blacks, and Gateron Black. The Gateron Black sits between the MX Reds and Blacks, but closer to the blacks. I hear the Gateron Yellows sit between them as well, but are closer to the reds.
In terms of the different measurements. You need to figure out if they're talking about bottom out force or actuation. Some people do indeed get them mixed up.
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Gat yellows feel similar to gat blacks up until the activation point. I was under the impression they activate at the same weight. But blacks bottom out heavier, so they feel more pillowy. gat blacks are like a lighter MX black (by maybe 5g). Gat yellows feel heavier than reds. I like both but gat blacks the best.. lubed of course
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I've studied the spec sheets a bit more and I now think I understand the forces required for them.
This is my understanding.
Yellow:
[attachimg=1]
50gą15gf
Start at 35 grams
Operate at 50 grams
Bottom out at 65 grams
Blacks:
[attachimg=2]
60gą15gf
Start at 45 grams
Operate at 60 grams
Bottom out at 75 grams
And I now understand what 60gą15gf means.
60 grams to actuate, 60-15 grams to start and 60+15 grams to bottom out.
Hopefully this will save other people some time :)
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Forces are affected by other factors, such as desk material and thickness, keyboard plate material and thickness, keycap material and thickness, whether you are tired or not on a particular day and so on.
For example I have three keyboards with MX blacks. One is an absolute joy to use, one is great, and the other feels heavy and scratchy.
I keep a few keyboards around with different switches and swap them around from time to time. The variety keeps each one feeling fresh.
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And I now understand what 60gą15gf means.
60 grams to actuate, 60-15 grams to start and 60+15 grams to bottom out.
Hopefully this will save other people some time :)
Always thought it was just a really wide tolerance rate.
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Forces are affected by other factors, such as desk material and thickness, keyboard plate material and thickness, keycap material and thickness
How?
The keycap, I understand. It weighs only 1-2 grams, though, unless it's a large stabilized one, typically a standard spacebar.
The plate, I get that it can absorb some impacts on bottoming out. Okay, that's somehow related to the forces involved.
What the hell does the desk have to do with this, though? O_o
And I now understand what 60gą15gf means.
60 grams to actuate, 60-15 grams to start and 60+15 grams to bottom out.
Hopefully this will save other people some time :)
Always thought it was just a really wide tolerance rate.
QFT
Yellow:
(Attachment Link)
50gą15gf
Start at 35 grams
Operate at 50 grams
Bottom out at 65 grams
Blacks:
(Attachment Link)
60gą15gf
Start at 45 grams
Operate at 60 grams
Bottom out at 75 grams
Yeah, the resistance is just differently steep.
I like a steep curve, thus put MX Clear (or respective 78g) springs into my linear switches.
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Forces are affected by other factors, such as desk material and thickness, keyboard plate material and thickness, keycap material and thickness
How?
The keycap, I understand. It weighs only 1-2 grams, though, unless it's a large stabilized one, typically a standard spacebar.
The plate, I get that it can absorb some impacts on bottoming out. Okay, that's somehow related to the forces involved.
What the hell does the desk have to do with this, though? O_o
Compare sculpted SA profile keycaps with, say, thin OEM ABS keycaps - there's a huge difference in weight that definitely makes a difference to the feel of a keyboard.
Also compare typing on a thick solid desk with good legs, compared to a thin desk with not much support underneath or even, shudder, a keyboard tray. With a good solid desk you can thump the keys a bit harder, and the sound is generally a bit more muffled. With a thin desk the sound is louder and the desk itself can resonate to the sound of the typing. I tend to type differently on different desks, typically work (thick, solid desk) and home (thin, almost flexible desk).
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Compare sculpted SA profile keycaps with, say, thin OEM ABS keycaps - there's a huge difference in weight that definitely makes a difference to the feel of a keyboard.
Of course SA and OEM profiles will feel different, because of distinct shapes.
However, that quote was about weight. Let's compare thin and thick caps of the same profile: there are both thin and thick OEM caps
the difference is something like (barely) 1 gram on an 1u keycap, though. If you have a spring that takes 60g to compress, the 1 g is what? 2 % or so. So, does it impact pre-load force? Definitely. Does it perceivably impact typing in real-life scenarios? I call BS. It's testable (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment), though, and I can be proven wrong by a well-designed and executed experiment.
Also compare typing on a thick solid desk with good legs, compared to a thin desk with not much support underneath or even, shudder, a keyboard tray. With a good solid desk you can thump the keys a bit harder, and the sound is generally a bit more muffled. With a thin desk the sound is louder and the desk itself can resonate to the sound of the typing. I tend to type differently on different desks, typically work (thick, solid desk) and home (thin, almost flexible desk).
You're shifting goalposts.
The quote was about switch force or rather work necessary to press a key. In this case, a solid surface underneath the keyboard has no effect whatsoever, unless you live in some other reality with alternative physics.
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This is a very interesting discussion on a topic I have been personally interested in for my next keyboard. Coming from ergo-clears, now I like OG Cherry vintage blacks with my own selection of springs. I have read extensively and I am considering Gateron blacks (GB) as being the closer new switches to vintage blacks. I have observed that stem smoothness is even more important for the feeling than spring weight and Gateron's are pretty smooth. I also found that if you compare a brand new Cherry black stem to an old one the last is far more smooth, thus, GB should be the closer thing to a well worn off Cherry black.
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There are the new Kailh switches too; the Box ones are said to be very smooth.
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This is a very interesting discussion on a topic I have been personally interested in for my next keyboard. Coming from ergo-clears, now I like OG Cherry vintage blacks with my own selection of springs. I have read extensively and I am considering Gateron blacks (GB) as being the closer new switches to vintage blacks. I have observed that stem smoothness is even more important for the feeling than spring weight and Gateron's are pretty smooth. I also found that if you compare a brand new Cherry black stem to an old one the last is far more smooth, thus, GB should be the closer thing to a well worn off Cherry black.
Apparently Cherry has retooled and the new-new MX Blacks are smoother than they were previously.
Gaterons might still be smoother yet, but they tend to have a very different sound and more wobble.
There's no winning when it comes to keyboards. :-X
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I find MX Reds too light and MX Blacks too heavy. I used MX Reds for a long time, but ultimately felt they were just a tad too light for me. This is all in reference to bottom out force, as I bottom out the overwhelming majority of my keystrokes. Actuation force is irrelevant to me for a linear switch. To my fingers, Gateron Blacks aren't appreciably lighter than their MX counterpart, but they do seem marginally smoother. Gateron Yellows are right in my sweet spot for linear switches and they are my favorite stock linear switch that I've tried (MX Red/Black, Gateron Red/Black/Yellow).