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geekhack Marketplace => Interest Checks => Topic started by: dotor on Tue, 22 December 2020, 03:39:16
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FEEL'S 65 - A Minimal, Gasket-Mount 65% by The Key Factor
IC Form: https://forms.gle/Zy1gZS4jhMHPxTu46 (https://forms.gle/Zy1gZS4jhMHPxTu46)
Discord (https://discord.gg/pu78duZ37X)
(https://i.imgur.com/5maVXdK.jpg)
After months of design and learning, I am ready to present the first board I designed. This keyboard's design draws inspiration from within the industry, creating a minimal and contemporary aesthetic. The naming convention was inspired by the Japanese tuning company well-known to Honda fans, Feel's Twin-Cam. I felt that by using the ever-so-popular gasket mount technique, this board is tailored to those who value typing feel more or just as much as the aesthetics of the board.
The goal and purpose of this board isn't innovation. I am aware that I do not have enough experience in the hobby to be revolutionizing anything. The goal of FEEL'S is to use pre-existing techniques that are tried and true to produce a mid-level board with the typing feel of a premium alternative.
(https://i.imgur.com/pEiwUJz.png)
Features
• ~20mm front height
• 7° typing angle
• Gasket-mounted plate
• Plate foam and other optional sound dampening
• 2-piece machined aluminum-6063 case
• Hot-swap offering
• Addressable RGB for at least the hot-swap version
• ANSI/ISO support
• USB-C Daughterboard by ai03 et al.
Options
• Colors (top): E-White, Annodized Gray, Annodized Navy
• Colors (bottom): Annodized Black, Annodized Bronze
• Plate Material: Aluminum, Polycarbonate, Brass (extra)
• Weight Material: PVD-coated Brass, Polished Stainless Steel
Any options you want to see, please refer to the IC form!
PCB and Layout
The PCB is in the process of being designed via a commission. I plan to have 2 different PCB options:
1. Hot-swap fixed-ANSI WK layout
2. Soldered that supports ANSI/ISO, split left shift, split backspace, and alternate 7U+WKL bottom row
(https://i.imgur.com/DdCo9q3.png)
Assembly
(https://i.imgur.com/7hGFHn5.png)
The plate will be isolated using 12 poron gaskets (pressure-mounted). The top and bottom case are held together by 2 ✕ M2 screws on the front and 4 ✕ M2 screw in the rear. The weight is screwed into the bottom case using 4 ✕ M1 screws.
There will only be 1 plate layout available which supports all the different layout offerings described above. Brass will be offered as an additional material available as an extra, along with other materials I plan to be experimenting with. These include:
• SS
• FR4
• Carbon fiber
• Titanium (unlikely)
• Copper (unlikely)
(https://i.imgur.com/NfDOtbH.png)
Renders
Keycap sets used: GMK Birch, GMK Muted, GMK Agent01, GMK Lunar
Renders by shamit0011
(https://i.imgur.com/5soYnap.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/4lUYNYO.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/OFEeI2L.png)
Renders by Kingk22
(https://i.imgur.com/b0VcANb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GKUEHPy.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nY1NXW3.jpg)
Pricing, Vendors, Units
Price: TBD, aiming for mid-$300.
Vendors: TBD
Units: TBD based on interest shown
Progress
Dec. 22 Protos ordered, IC posted, PCB design in progress
Dec. 28 Design changes/optimization in progress.
Jan. 9 - - R1 case prototypes are finished production and will be shipped to me next week
- PCB design is nearing completion, prototypes will be ordered next week
- Gasket/foam options being explored and will be experimented with
- Few changes were made to design for R2 prototype and forward:
- All edges use 2mm fillets instead of 1mm
- Front screws will be removed
- 8 bottom-up screws added
- Inner edges and bottom case optimized to be more CNC friendly
- WKL option is removed in favor of a Tsangan bottom row
Closing Remarks
By now, I'd expect some of you to be skeptical of the design. Yes, I do realize that the design resembles Smith and Rune's design language and shares a lot of resemblance and similarities to the IRON series. I have shown the design to voxkey and consulted with him regarding the design and he has kindly allowed me to keep the board's design as it sits.
At this time, I do not have a Discord channel yet. If you would like to follow the progress, please fill the IC form! This thread will be updated when there is new information. I can be reached on Discord dotor#0067 if you have anything questions.
Thanks for reading and I hope you guys enjoy the design.
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reserved
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When thinking minimal I don't visualise screws visible from every angle of the case.
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Looks pretty clean! Following and definitely interested :D
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If you are doing this for yourself only, then it's ok!
If you will be selling this (as a GB) - it's not ok.
Lazy design - yes, again. Do something new. Don't copy.
This "hobby" becomes more and more disgusting.
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I disagree. I think it’s actually “minimalistic” in a rustic sense and I dig the screw locations. Will follow closely but definitely interested.
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Why is using a design u like as inspiration considered lazy? Not sure if disgusting is the right word to use either, as he was simply putting his personal preferences on his personally designed board.
Clean aesthetic, I’m interested and will follow closely.
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The plate will be isolated using 12 poron gaskets (pressure-mounted). The top and bottom case are held together by 2 ✕ M2 screws on the front and 4 ✕ M2 screw in the rear. The weight is screwed into the bottom case using 4 ✕ M1 screws.
I want to hear a typing test/see an assembly video. With that many gasket mounting points, and only 6 unevenly placed screws at M2 size, I really really really really hope you're getting enough even compression across the plate.
With sub TKL board sizes, I'm not sure how viable having 5 mounting points would be more beneficial than 3 larger ones. Is it cheaper to cnc? Does it give the board a more even typing experience?
If the screws hold the board together from the side, how does the top/bottom case compress vertically? Do you have to press it together with your hands?
Why not simply increase the bezel size slightly to allow for more standard mounting points from the bottom? Or internal case screws?
It's an interesting concept but I feel the design needs more consideration into how it's actually assembled, and once assembled, what sort of typing experience it will produce.
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Is US$400-450 considered mid-level for a 65% these days lol
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Is US$400-450 considered mid-level for a 65% these days lol
This was my thought/question as well... kinda surprised to see that estimate after reading the story behind the board
“𝙁𝙖𝙞𝙩𝙝 𝙞𝙨 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙗𝙞𝙧𝙙 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙩 𝙛𝙚𝙚𝙡𝙨 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙡𝙞𝙜𝙝𝙩 𝙬𝙝𝙚𝙣 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙨𝙠𝙮 𝙞𝙨 𝙨𝙩𝙞𝙡𝙡 𝙙𝙞𝙢.”
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The design is very....generic? It's hard for me to see why I should pay $450 or so for a board that doesn't stand out from the rest. Also, these visible screws on the side and back really take away from the minimal aesthetic you're going for.
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When thinking minimal I don't visualise screws visible from every angle of the case.
Look again, no screws on the bottom! :cool:
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It's not terrible. I mean it's clearly taking a page out of the Smith and Rune book. Which does seem pretty obvious here and maybe in a bad way? I think if you tweaked the back accent design a bit you could really make it your own without it being too similar to other designs. I actually really enjoy the screws on the back though. I think that looks great. The front not as much though. Perhaps if you were able to migrate the front screws to the top that could look a lot better.
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Reserved.
Very keen to see how protos come out and all possible colourways for this board :)
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Best of luck with the IC. I don’t have any strong feelings about the board itself, but the name is causing an OCD tick. Why Feel’s and not Feels?
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Best of luck with the IC. I don’t have any strong feelings about the board itself, but the name is causing an OCD tick. Why Feel’s and not Feels?
This was my first thought as well :'( Maybe its supposed to be read similar to "65 is life" with "Feel is 65"?
I can see the resemblance to Iron165 but it also have a number of unique quirks (such as the screw-holes, the back, and the boarder size) that make this quite different, so I don't agree that this is lazy (and definitely not disgusting, lol..).
Good luck with the IC :)
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What makes this board worth $450?
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nope, next
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Here's some spicy thoughts:
Lots of sharp internal corners which are impossible to machine. You shouldn't count on your manufacturer to fix your design for you, make it machinable in the first place.
Where are the screws for the internal weight? :eek:
These are absolutely basic things that one should already have figured out many many months ago before attempting to sell a product.
And most importantly, ask yourself "what makes someone consider this keyboard over others at it's price range?"
Those are my thoughts, good luck with your future projects :thumb:
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Looks pretty clean!
there are screw holes all over the board, what are you talking about
also the price point is way out of line for what this board is, especially considering that the Vega just went for $329 or so
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Here's some spicy thoughts:
Lots of sharp internal corners which are impossible to machine. You shouldn't count on your manufacturer to fix your design for you, make it machinable in the first place.
Where are the screws for the internal weight? :eek:
These are absolutely basic things that one should already have figured out many many months ago before attempting to sell a product.
And most importantly, ask yourself "what makes someone consider this keyboard over others at it's price range?"
Those are my thoughts, good luck with your future projects :thumb:
Thanks for your thoughts and concerns everyone. The price point is very preliminary and is only an estimate based on the assumption that I will not be producing an amount where lowering the price point to Vega-level is even remotely profitable or reaching breaK-even. With that being said, I'd love to lower the price as much as possible, and I will do everything I can to make that happen.
As for the design, this is still very early in IC phase and a lot of things can still change. Interest checks are sales pitches and with that being said, the product isn't going to up for sale if there isn't enough interest.
Please wait until prototypes are finished before judging the board too hard. Hate it or love it, feel free to follow along!
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Looks pretty clean!
there are screw holes all over the board, what are you talking about
also the price point is way out of line for what this board is, especially considering that the Vega just went for $329 or so
Hey man, I'm entitled to my own opinion as you are to yours.
Just because there's screwholes on the top and the bottom of the board, doesn't mean it can't be clean to me.
One of my favorite PC cases of all time, the Corsair Crystal 570X, has screw mount points on the to hold up the tempered glass and I would consider that a clean design.
Just because it doesn't fit with your personal aesthetic doesn't mean I should need to conform to your taste.
I'm fully aware of the high price point of the board, but it's literally just an IC that caught my eye; doesn't mean I need to commit buying right on the spot
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The back design: The rouned curvature of the top case and the sharp angular bottom shape feels like they are clashing with each other.
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This is definitely a copy/paste of the Iron 165's design philosophy, only with exposed screws and no blocker. I think exposed screws have the potential to boost the appeal in design, but it looks pretty bad here imo. I think removing the R1 side screws would improve my opinion of the design, but it would look even more like the Iron 165. Overall, unoriginal design and a definite pass from me. GL
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The screws in the back are pretty cool. The screws in the front not so much, they look awkward there. But that's just my opinion, I know some people would probably dig that look
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Is US$400-450 considered mid-level for a 65% these days lol
This was my thought/question as well... kinda surprised to see that estimate after reading the story behind the board
“𝙁𝙖𝙞𝙩𝙝 𝙞𝙨 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙗𝙞𝙧𝙙 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙩 𝙛𝙚𝙚𝙡𝙨 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙡𝙞𝙜𝙝𝙩 𝙬𝙝𝙚𝙣 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙨𝙠𝙮 𝙞𝙨 𝙨𝙩𝙞𝙡𝙡 𝙙𝙞𝙢.”
what's more interesting was that there's a price estimate when MOQ was TBD.
now everything is just TBD :p
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If the screws hold the board together from the side, how does the top/bottom case compress vertically? Do you have to press it together with your hands?
I think this is a valid point. You’ll need to ensure that there’s enough force to hold the plate in place, which means you’ll probably need to push the top and bottom together as you tighten the screws. That means you could have some fairly significant shear forces acting on those tiny screws. Not ideal. At a minimum, I’d consider going up to M3s. But even better would be to modify the design so those screws don’t have to carry those perpendicular forces.
Also M1 screws for the weight seems a little exaggerated. No need to go that tiny. M2 screws would be a better choice there.
I’d like to see a bit more work put in on that bottom row. I like the idea of a winkeyless option but I think it works a lot better on a 60% because it’s symmetrical with matching right and left blockers. I can’t unsee the 1.5U modifiers on the left of the space bar and the mismatched 1.25U modifiers on the right. If you’re committed to WKL, going with no blocker and 1.5U modifiers on the right side would make for a cleaner aesthetic, IMO.
On the other hand, if you’re committed to keeping the blocker, consider ditching the WKL option and replacing it with a Tsangan-style bottom row: 1.5 - 1 - 1.5 - 7 - 1.5.
As it stands now, the only layout that includes the System key has the standard ANSI bottom row. That’s gonna be pretty unappealing for a lot of folks (like me).
The bronze bottom looks great. That’s something unique that definitely helps this board stand out from the crowd. It should go beautifully with any of the three top colors and that should be enough to keep people’s attention while you’re cleaning up some of the other issues.
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If the screws hold the board together from the side, how does the top/bottom case compress vertically? Do you have to press it together with your hands?
I think this is a valid point. You’ll need to ensure that there’s enough force to hold the plate in place, which means you’ll probably need to push the top and bottom together as you tighten the screws. That means you could have some fairly significant shear forces acting on those tiny screws. Not ideal. At a minimum, I’d consider going up to M3s. But even better would be to modify the design so those screws don’t have to carry those perpendicular forces.
Also M1 screws for the weight seems a little exaggerated. No need to go that tiny. M2 screws would be a better choice there.
I’d like to see a bit more work put in on that bottom row. I like the idea of a winkeyless option but I think it works a lot better on a 60% because it’s symmetrical with matching right and left blockers. I can’t unsee the 1.5U modifiers on the left of the space bar and the mismatched 1.25U modifiers on the right. If you’re committed to WKL, going with no blocker and 1.5U modifiers on the right side would make for a cleaner aesthetic, IMO.
On the other hand, if you’re committed to keeping the blocker, consider ditching the WKL option and replacing it with a Tsangan-style bottom row: 1.5 - 1 - 1.5 - 7 - 1.5.
As it stands now, the only layout that includes the System key has the standard ANSI bottom row. That’s gonna be pretty unappealing for a lot of folks (like me).
The bronze bottom looks great. That’s something unique that definitely helps this board stand out from the crowd. It should go beautifully with any of the three top colors and that should be enough to keep people’s attention while you’re cleaning up some of the other issues.
Appreciate the reply, I really enjoyed reading all of your points. Although this thread has been super critical, I am taking the time to read through everybody's suggestions and concerns. I did consider the shearing forces on the horizontal screws, but there isn't much gasket compression in the current design. In total, there is only 1mm of gasket material that needs to be compressed and I also intend to tinkle with different rubber/silicone materials to see which can will provide the optimal compression. That being said, it seems a lot of the initial feedback from the community thus far is in favor of removing the front screws.
I can't please everyone, but I will sincerely do my best to accommodate to those who are interested in my keyboard.
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If I may also make a suggestion/correction in terms of grammar... If your intent is to use the plural form of the word "feel", then I believe the correct spelling is "feels" without an apostrophe. Smartphones and their autocorrect functionality have incorrectly led people to believe that apostrophes are used to pluralize nouns, but that is simply not correct.
Nevermind haha I glossed over the reference to the auto parts portion of your post, carry on!
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I dig the angular and exposed screws design.
GLWIC.
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If possible is the word feel be able to be changed to something else great board but dislike the back
Sent from my SM-G985F using Tapatalk
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Side tabs create uneven feeling, and having tabs under spacebar can create unwanted stiffness
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Not big on the name. I get that feel’s is a super obscure company to those who were never into the Japanese car tuning scene, but it’s really not too far off from just slapping Honda on the bottom of your board. Just seems odd to use the name of a company involved in an entirely different industry.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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looks very nice! I like the simple but functional design. what are those holes on the side by the way, are they for screws?
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This is amazing! I'll be concise:
What I love/why I would be interested in buying it:
- Gasket Mount
- 65%
- Split-backspace
- The bottom and back design (love the logo and those back screws
- Plate foam (and hopefully case foam, all in silicone?)
- The name (lol)
- no badge
What I would love to see change/some changes to consider (just imo) (From most to least important):
- get rid of those 2 front screws
- Have a POM plate option (lol)
- Increase the sides, top and bottom bezels just by a little bit
- have a Black color for the top
- Moving the USB C to the left
- Including RAMA Kara like screws for those 4 back screws (they look very JDM so it will definitely fit your build)
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If you are doing this for yourself only, then it's ok!
If you will be selling this (as a GB) - it's not ok.
Lazy design - yes, again. Do something new. Don't copy.
This "hobby" becomes more and more disgusting.
Being less toxic would help the hobby to be less disgusting.
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I really like the design and I think it looks very clean!
GLWIC!
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the front screws just breaks the design for me. the rear screws are okay. GLWIC.
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personally, i don't agree with the design of the screws in the front face and i feel that the front face might even be a little bit too tall. best of luck though!
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If the screws hold the board together from the side, how does the top/bottom case compress vertically? Do you have to press it together with your hands?
I think this is a valid point. You’ll need to ensure that there’s enough force to hold the plate in place, which means you’ll probably need to push the top and bottom together as you tighten the screws. That means you could have some fairly significant shear forces acting on those tiny screws. Not ideal. At a minimum, I’d consider going up to M3s. But even better would be to modify the design so those screws don’t have to carry those perpendicular forces.
Also M1 screws for the weight seems a little exaggerated. No need to go that tiny. M2 screws would be a better choice there.
I’d like to see a bit more work put in on that bottom row. I like the idea of a winkeyless option but I think it works a lot better on a 60% because it’s symmetrical with matching right and left blockers. I can’t unsee the 1.5U modifiers on the left of the space bar and the mismatched 1.25U modifiers on the right. If you’re committed to WKL, going with no blocker and 1.5U modifiers on the right side would make for a cleaner aesthetic, IMO.
On the other hand, if you’re committed to keeping the blocker, consider ditching the WKL option and replacing it with a Tsangan-style bottom row: 1.5 - 1 - 1.5 - 7 - 1.5.
As it stands now, the only layout that includes the System key has the standard ANSI bottom row. That’s gonna be pretty unappealing for a lot of folks (like me).
The bronze bottom looks great. That’s something unique that definitely helps this board stand out from the crowd. It should go beautifully with any of the three top colors and that should be enough to keep people’s attention while you’re cleaning up some of the other issues.
Appreciate the reply, I really enjoyed reading all of your points. Although this thread has been super critical, I am taking the time to read through everybody's suggestions and concerns. I did consider the shearing forces on the horizontal screws, but there isn't much gasket compression in the current design. In total, there is only 1mm of gasket material that needs to be compressed and I also intend to tinkle with different rubber/silicone materials to see which can will provide the optimal compression. That being said, it seems a lot of the initial feedback from the community thus far is in favor of removing the front screws.
I can't please everyone, but I will sincerely do my best to accommodate to those who are interested in my keyboard.
Glad to see you are not brought down by some of the comments here.
While there is still some work to be done I hope you are able to turn this board into the best it can be, I hope to see it on my desk one day :thumb:
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Prototypes have finished production and I will be receiving them soon, original post was updated with a Discord link for those interested.
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I'm interested in this because i missed Iron and Vega
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If you are doing this for yourself only, then it's ok!
If you will be selling this (as a GB) - it's not ok.
Lazy design - yes, again. Do something new. Don't copy.
This "hobby" becomes more and more disgusting.
Damn man your ruthless
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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backside and blocky build does look quite like a iron165 without the blocker (thank you). It does look nice, but the screws everywhere is a bit non minimalistic imo. I also think taking out side gaskets would feel better.
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why the apostrophe?