Greetings, Interwebzers!

[Pinkachu]

Hey, all!

Been on /r/MechanicalKeyboards for a few months and found lots of helpful links to this place, so finally signed up.

I have been using Apple keyboards for the better part of the past 10 years or so, and am on the search for the ultimate keyboard that is better than the scissor switches. Grew up learning to type on Extended II so I always knew there was something better out there.

Thanks for having me, and I hope I am able to give something back to the community!

[rowdy]

Welcome to Geekhack!

The Apple Extended Keyboard II is a pretty good keyboard, actually.  Alps switches and everything.

A Topre keyboard might be better   Or something with buckling springs.

Any idea what sort of switch you might like to try?

[Pinkachu]

I actually have it narrowed down to MX Clears - from all the modern switches I've felt, this is surprisingly similar - I think more people should check it out.

From there, though, that narrows it quite a bit, because there aren't that many boards available with clears. Too bad I can't get a $60 CMStorm with clears :/

I haven't tried browns, maybe they're similar enough? The clears have a nice firmness at the top, then you push, push, push, and then in drops, kind of like a mini buckling spring, or the way a scissor switch feels (in a good way).

Any advice is appreciated!

[rowdy]

I actually have it narrowed down to MX Clears - from all the modern switches I've felt, this is surprisingly similar - I think more people should check it out.

From there, though, that narrows it quite a bit, because there aren't that many boards available with clears. Too bad I can't get a $60 CMStorm with clears :/

I haven't tried browns, maybe they're similar enough? The clears have a nice firmness at the top, then you push, push, push, and then in drops, kind of like a mini buckling spring, or the way a scissor switch feels (in a good way).

Any advice is appreciated!

I like clears   About the only switch I don't bottom out on all the time.

I have a CODE with clears, got it from Massdrop.  That's where I got mine from.  No, it won't be $60, but the price is reasonable.

Or maybe not, if you don't want backlighting ...

[Pinkachu]

Looks like the Code87 with clears is $150 anywhere I look. That's more than a POK3R or Ducky Mini or a KBP V60. Not sure what other boards come with clear switches!

[rowdy]

Looks like the Code87 with clears is $150 anywhere I look. That's more than a POK3R or Ducky Mini or a KBP V60. Not sure what other boards come with clear switches!

More keys too

[Pinkachu]

True, but why not just get a CMStorm QFR or similar at that point? I don't need a 60% I just don't like OEM profile. I'd rather as flat a profile as possible, Planck even, but I'd like something retail, easily available if possible.

[xondat]

I think you'll soon move away from /r/mk - the community and constant discussion is really nice here, and ultimately what made me stay.

[Pinkachu]

I think you'll soon move away from /r/mk - the community and constant discussion is really nice here, and ultimately what made me stay.

I'm not really much of a redditer, so that's possible. Reddit as a place to find community and friendly people is not the best. Forums are usually better. This place seems darn friendly so far! If I posted something like this in a /r/ it would just get 14 downvotes and no responses!

[xtrafrood]

Seems like a lot of OSX users enjoy their topre or alps switches. In my option Reddit is similar to a gazebo without a hot tub, and GH is more of a home with heat, and running water  Welcome

[Pinkachu]

Seems like a lot of OSX users enjoy their topre or alps switches. In my option Reddit is similar to a gazebo without a hot tub, and GH is more of a home with heat, and running water  Welcome

I would probably love alps switches or maybe the new Matias switches, but I love the idea of changing caps, and the Matias boards seem to get mixed reviews on amazon, like the QC isn't quite there. I learned typing in 3rd grade in probably 1994 and I know the school had apple keyboards. It's been so long I can't picture the color of the keyboard (we were taught to type without looking...), but I'm certain the monitor was separate (and set on top) of the computer part. It took 5.25" floppies and had an apple logo on the monitor. I don't remember an OS at all - we had to put in the floppy before booting the computers for our programs to run (number-crunchers, et al).

I wonder if that narrows down the model of the computers so I can figure out which keyboards we were using - I'd love to get a modern remake of one of those, or at least something with those switches... It would be fun to have one around

[xtrafrood]

Seems like a lot of OSX users enjoy their topre or alps switches. In my option Reddit is similar to a gazebo without a hot tub, and GH is more of a home with heat, and running water  Welcome

I would probably love alps switches or maybe the new Matias switches, but I love the idea of changing caps, and the Matias boards seem to get mixed reviews on amazon, like the QC isn't quite there. I learned typing in 3rd grade in probably 1994 and I know the school had apple keyboards. It's been so long I can't picture the color of the keyboard (we were taught to type without looking...), but I'm certain the monitor was separate (and set on top) of the computer part. It took 5.25" floppies and had an apple logo on the monitor. I don't remember an OS at all - we had to put in the floppy before booting the computers for our programs to run (number-crunchers, et al).

I wonder if that narrows down the model of the computers so I can figure out which keyboards we were using - I'd love to get a modern remake of one of those, or at least something with those switches... It would be fun to have one around

Oh man, right on. I started on a Commodore 64 like the one in the picture (although the keyboard was a 122 key I think). I'm sure you'll figure out the model. Maybe it was a buckling spring keyboard?

[Pinkachu]

maybe, I think it's more likely it was an ALPS. From what I've read, even the AEII from like 1979 used Alps. Don't think they ever used springs, but I could be ill informed.

[rowdy]

True, but why not just get a CMStorm QFR or similar at that point? I don't need a 60% I just don't like OEM profile. I'd rather as flat a profile as possible, Planck even, but I'd like something retail, easily available if possible.

OEM profile usually refers to the keycaps, and they can be swapped easily on most keyboards.

Signature Plastics/Pimp My Keyboard make DSA keycaps, which are fairly low profile and uniform.  Also uniform SA is higher, but also uniform profile.

[Pinkachu]

True, but why not just get a CMStorm QFR or similar at that point? I don't need a 60% I just don't like OEM profile. I'd rather as flat a profile as possible, Planck even, but I'd like something retail, easily available if possible.

OEM profile usually refers to the keycaps, and they can be swapped easily on most keyboards.

Signature Plastics/Pimp My Keyboard make DSA keycaps, which are fairly low profile and uniform.  Also uniform SA is higher, but also uniform profile.

So a board with a steep slope going up the keys is not from switch placement/slope of the mounting plate, but the key profiles?? I'm talking about the "stadium seating" effect that I see on lots of older keyboards... though now that you mention it, the slope of the profile on the QFR doesn't actually look that steep. Coming from an apple aluminum it felt steep, I guess...


If only they came with clears (or greens on the TKL version...) I could save myself quite a bit of money. As it is, it seems a board with clears will be $115-150 and if I'm deciding between a Filco, CODE, and a Pok3r, seems like better value on the 60% model (better resale, better components and case, etc). I certainly have room for a TKL, but at that price I might as well get something sexier as long as I don't sacrifice quality, right?

[rowdy]

True, but why not just get a CMStorm QFR or similar at that point? I don't need a 60% I just don't like OEM profile. I'd rather as flat a profile as possible, Planck even, but I'd like something retail, easily available if possible.

OEM profile usually refers to the keycaps, and they can be swapped easily on most keyboards.

Signature Plastics/Pimp My Keyboard make DSA keycaps, which are fairly low profile and uniform.  Also uniform SA is higher, but also uniform profile.

So a board with a steep slope going up the keys is not from switch placement/slope of the mounting plate, but the key profiles?? I'm talking about the "stadium seating" effect that I see on lots of older keyboards... though now that you mention it, the slope of the profile on the QFR doesn't actually look that steep. Coming from an apple aluminum it felt steep, I guess...


If only they came with clears (or greens on the TKL version...) I could save myself quite a bit of money. As it is, it seems a board with clears will be $115-150 and if I'm deciding between a Filco, CODE, and a Pok3r, seems like better value on the 60% model (better resale, better components and case, etc). I certainly have room for a TKL, but at that price I might as well get something sexier as long as I don't sacrifice quality, right?

Yes.  If you remove all the keycaps so that just the switches are left, they are all exactly the same height.  This is the case for nearly all keyboards, with Model M being a notable exception, as that does have a curved plate.

The Apple aluminium keyboard uses scissor switches, and very low profile keycaps (I have three of them, btw).  It is completely flat.

The closest you could get to that with a proper mechanical keyboard is a set of DSA keycaps, such as Granite.  Higher profile, but uniform i.e. flat across the keyboard.

I have a QFS with MX greens.  It complements my QFR with MX blacks nicely.

Most mainstream keyboards don't have that much resale value after a year or so, less if they get heavy usage.  It's only rare or custom keyboards that keep their value through their life.  Any of the Filco, CODE or Pok3r should be absolutely fine - they are all great keyboards.

[Pinkachu]

Yes.  If you remove all the keycaps so that just the switches are left, they are all exactly the same height.  This is the case for nearly all keyboards, with Model M being a notable exception, as that does have a curved plate.

The Apple aluminium keyboard uses scissor switches, and very low profile keycaps (I have three of them, btw).  It is completely flat.

The closest you could get to that with a proper mechanical keyboard is a set of DSA keycaps, such as Granite.  Higher profile, but uniform i.e. flat across the keyboard.

I have a QFS with MX greens.  It complements my QFR with MX blacks nicely.

Most mainstream keyboards don't have that much resale value after a year or so, less if they get heavy usage.  It's only rare or custom keyboards that keep their value through their life.  Any of the Filco, CODE or Pok3r should be absolutely fine - they are all great keyboards.

Thanks for that - I realized that it's not only the flat profile but also the low travel distance. A Pok3r with MX Clears I got to try was almost similar (but had much more play after actuation, of course), but I wonder if there's any way to decrease travel on MX keys... From what I read the Topre have some low travel and also similar feel to actuate (weight is added until you push, push, push, and then it plops right down tot he bottom like the Apple Scissors - which are more like buckling scissors than traditional laptop scissors like my Powerbook G4 had...)

My best guess is that topre keyboards maintain their value since they're not as common, though. I'll look into the classifieds here and maybe ebay and amazon too... Not sure where people try to sell used keyboards, but now that I'm thinking of buying custom caps anyway, I don't have much of an issue sanitizing a keyboard case, you know?

[rowdy]

Yes.  If you remove all the keycaps so that just the switches are left, they are all exactly the same height.  This is the case for nearly all keyboards, with Model M being a notable exception, as that does have a curved plate.

The Apple aluminium keyboard uses scissor switches, and very low profile keycaps (I have three of them, btw).  It is completely flat.

The closest you could get to that with a proper mechanical keyboard is a set of DSA keycaps, such as Granite.  Higher profile, but uniform i.e. flat across the keyboard.

I have a QFS with MX greens.  It complements my QFR with MX blacks nicely.

Most mainstream keyboards don't have that much resale value after a year or so, less if they get heavy usage.  It's only rare or custom keyboards that keep their value through their life.  Any of the Filco, CODE or Pok3r should be absolutely fine - they are all great keyboards.

Thanks for that - I realized that it's not only the flat profile but also the low travel distance. A Pok3r with MX Clears I got to try was almost similar (but had much more play after actuation, of course), but I wonder if there's any way to decrease travel on MX keys... From what I read the Topre have some low travel and also similar feel to actuate (weight is added until you push, push, push, and then it plops right down tot he bottom like the Apple Scissors - which are more like buckling scissors than traditional laptop scissors like my Powerbook G4 had...)

My best guess is that topre keyboards maintain their value since they're not as common, though. I'll look into the classifieds here and maybe ebay and amazon too... Not sure where people try to sell used keyboards, but now that I'm thinking of buying custom caps anyway, I don't have much of an issue sanitizing a keyboard case, you know?

Most mechanical switches actuate after 2mm, and bottom out at 4mm.  Nothing you can do about the actuation depth, but you can install rubber O-rings under teh keycaps to reduce the overall travel (and dampen the bottom out sound).

I think one of the switches (Gateron?) actuate after 1.5mm, which is not that much different.

Topre is about the same.  Although there is silenced Topre, which have rubber rings or something around the sliders to stop them from going all the way back up.  A factory silenced (Type-S) Topre keyboard has thinner sliders to compensate, but a home-silenced Topre board will have keys that don't go all the way back up, and thus actuate quicker on the downstroke.  Many say that this spoils the feel of the Topre switches though.

[Pinkachu]

Most mechanical switches actuate after 2mm, and bottom out at 4mm.  Nothing you can do about the actuation depth, but you can install rubber O-rings under teh keycaps to reduce the overall travel (and dampen the bottom out sound).

I think one of the switches (Gateron?) actuate after 1.5mm, which is not that much different.

The sound isn't an issue, as I don't bottom out anyway, I just wish I COULD without pressing down so far (give me an impression of how far I need to press it, you know?) Like if I could find a way to put 2mm landing pads under the caps, or if the switches were deeper into a case so that some of the travel distance is unavailable because of a plate... I think that would solve my issues with all of this! At that point, I would probably just use blacks!

[CoolGrayAJ]

I think you'll soon move away from /r/mk - the community and constant discussion is really nice here, and ultimately what made me stay.

I echo this sentiment 100%. I've never really been compelled to contribute to subreddits in the first place, and this place just has it all.

[rowdy]

Most mechanical switches actuate after 2mm, and bottom out at 4mm.  Nothing you can do about the actuation depth, but you can install rubber O-rings under teh keycaps to reduce the overall travel (and dampen the bottom out sound).

I think one of the switches (Gateron?) actuate after 1.5mm, which is not that much different.

The sound isn't an issue, as I don't bottom out anyway, I just wish I COULD without pressing down so far (give me an impression of how far I need to press it, you know?) Like if I could find a way to put 2mm landing pads under the caps, or if the switches were deeper into a case so that some of the travel distance is unavailable because of a plate... I think that would solve my issues with all of this! At that point, I would probably just use blacks!

MX switches don't work like that, they are discreet units.  The actuation distance is set by the shape of the slider.  You'd have to try to find a way of stopping the slider from returning all the way up, and I haven't heard of anything to do that.

[Pinkachu]

MX switches don't work like that, they are discreet units.  The actuation distance is set by the shape of the slider.  You'd have to try to find a way of stopping the slider from returning all the way up, and I haven't heard of anything to do that.

The switches actuate about 2mm down through the travel (4mm available). If the bottom 1.8 was unavailable (because of something physically blocking the keycap form going further down), then it would go down 2mm and actuate, then another 0.2mm to bottom out. (and give tolerance for some switches that might not actuate until 2.1mm, etc). Landing pads are not a problem in preventing actuation... but they are thin. What if you used 8 landing pads per key? It should still work (or maybe that's too much depending on how thick they are, so let's say 5?). Just won't have much space to go down. That is expensive, though, so imagine a plate that goes over the switches that does the same thing (or a keyboard that has this effectively built in).

[rowdy]

MX switches don't work like that, they are discreet units.  The actuation distance is set by the shape of the slider.  You'd have to try to find a way of stopping the slider from returning all the way up, and I haven't heard of anything to do that.

The switches actuate about 2mm down through the travel (4mm available). If the bottom 1.8 was unavailable (because of something physically blocking the keycap form going further down), then it would go down 2mm and actuate, then another 0.2mm to bottom out. (and give tolerance for some switches that might not actuate until 2.1mm, etc). Landing pads are not a problem in preventing actuation... but they are thin. What if you used 8 landing pads per key? It should still work (or maybe that's too much depending on how thick they are, so let's say 5?). Just won't have much space to go down. That is expensive, though, so imagine a plate that goes over the switches that does the same thing (or a keyboard that has this effectively built in).

O-rings.

And AFAIK switch tolerances are VERY tight for something so small - a 0.1mm tolerance for actuating sounds way too high for a German-made switch!

[Pinkachu]

O-rings.

And AFAIK switch tolerances are VERY tight for something so small - a 0.1mm tolerance for actuating sounds way too high for a German-made switch!

This, but a 2mm o-ring! As for tolerances, anything I've read says they actuate at 2.0-2.2mm so I don't know what's what. Maybe the reset point is somewhere around 2 but the actuation point is 2.2? Who knows...

[rowdy]

O-rings.

And AFAIK switch tolerances are VERY tight for something so small - a 0.1mm tolerance for actuating sounds way too high for a German-made switch!

This, but a 2mm o-ring! As for tolerances, anything I've read says they actuate at 2.0-2.2mm so I don't know what's what. Maybe the reset point is somewhere around 2 but the actuation point is 2.2? Who knows...

http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/cherry-mx-rubber-o-ring-switch-dampeners-125pcs.html

There's 0.2mm and 0.4mm, but 0.2mm is very, very thin, and I'm sure these are thicker than that.

The Cherry switch specification page notes the upper housing has a 0.01mm tolerance.

http://www.cherry.de/cid/MX_Technology.htm?rdeLocationAttr=0&rdeLocaleAttr=en&switch=true#/modul-specification

I can't see the rest of the switch being 20 times less tolerant, especially considering German engineering at its finest!

Have you got a link for that 0.2mm?

[Lpwl]

Bear in mind that O-rings do not translate immediately across to bottoming-out difference.

For example, you really don't want to use 3.0mm thick O-rings with OEM profile keycaps but if your goal is to reduce key travel significantly, 2.5mm thick ones are a great option

---

From my own measurements : WASDKeyboards 40A-R (blue ones) O-rings are 1.8mm thick || 40A-L (pinkish ones) are ~1.5mm thick.

[rowdy]

Bear in mind that O-rings do not translate immediately across to bottoming-out difference.

For example, you really don't want to use 3.0mm thick O-rings with OEM profile keycaps but if your goal is to reduce key travel significantly, 2.5mm thick ones are a great option

---

From my own measurements : WASDKeyboards 40A-R (blue ones) O-rings are 1.8mm thick || 40A-L (pinkish ones) are ~1.5mm thick.

If O-rings stop the switches from travelling more than 2mm then the switches won't actuate.

[Pinkachu]

If O-rings stop the switches from travelling more than 2mm then the switches won't actuate.

I know. I want them to stop the switch from traveling more than 2.2mm (1.8mm thick...) but instead of a ring on each cap (that would be too thick for the stem in diameter), I would rather a 1.8mm sheet as a landing pad that covers the keyboard.

[rowdy]

If O-rings stop the switches from travelling more than 2mm then the switches won't actuate.

I know. I want them to stop the switch from traveling more than 2.2mm (1.8mm thick...) but instead of a ring on each cap (that would be too thick for the stem in diameter), I would rather a 1.8mm sheet as a landing pad that covers the keyboard.

You could, in theory, get a sheet of 1.8mm rubber (or similar) and use two hole punches to punhc the outer diameter then the inner diameter out to make your own custom rings.

Someone did something like that a while back, the results were quite good.

[Pinkachu]

I'll try to use the search functions to find a writeup on that thread, thanks for the idea!

Though I'd almost rather just use one punch out of laziness and make a keyboard-layout-shaped-sheet to put down on the keybed itself haha

[xtrafrood]

Leather punches work really well with neoprene rubbers, silicone rubbers, latex,  and all kinds of materials that have a similar density.

[rowdy]

Might have been this thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=28708.0

But the original pictures are lost.

[switchnollie]

A Topre keyboard might be better